Shaq/Wade vs. TD/Kobe

[jaypo]

lol right, because anyone who doesn't choose Bryant in a comparison thread is just trying to bait everyone else...

Dude... you're not subjective at all. That's like saying jaypo, a known Shaq fan, is objective when in reality he is biased in favor of Shaq.

Nothing wrong with admitting bias. I'm a Kobe fan, and realize that I'm prone to bias when discussing him.

I was going to stay out of it, but I've been dragged back in. First of all, I don't try to hide that I'm a fan of Shaq. I don't care if people blast me for it, because it seems to be unacceptable to be a fan of his around here. But what I do not like is when people cannot accept that because I am a fan of Shaq, that I cannot have an OBJECTIVE opinion on Kobe. As I've said before, I was a really big Kobe fan for 8 years. When the feud hit its peak and Shaq was traded, I stopped following Kobe and kept following Shaq. Sure, I was upset with how it ended. And they were BOTH at fault, as well as Phil Jackson and Buss and Kupchak. But I don't have any dislike for Kobe at all. Some of you cannot seem to accept that. Hell, Sedale Threatt even claims that he knows my feelings better than I know them myself! I know he is respected around here, and I share that sentiment about him, but he is a prime example of what goes on around here. A lot of you (and it is mostly overzealous Kobe fans) cannot accept that a person can be a fan of Shaq and NOT be a Kobe hater. You assume that because someone favors Shaq, he automatically hates Kobe. And people like Vincent666 claim that if you post anything that isn't praise about Kobe, it's hate. Well, Shaq was out of shape in 03, he has a huge ego, and he had a huge part in the breakup. Does that mean that I hate Shaq too? I just posted things he did wrong, so according to Vincent, it must mean that I hate him, right?

No, I don't try to hide my bias in favor of Shaq. But I can be OBJECTIVE when discussing him. That's why I use a lot of quotes and information from people like Phil Jackson and the players themselves. While most of the overzealous fans use Kobe's assumptions about Shaq's fitness or their own assumptions to form their opinions. And I'm the kind of person that speaks up when there is wrong stuff being said! Sorry. I won't change that! Prime example- people say that Shaq was "out of shape all the time". I gave them scientific evidence from his own coaches that prove it wrong. And people still will not acknowledge it. They claim the feud was because of Shaq not working on his relationship wtih Kobe. I showed them a quote from Shaq where he said he tried to "embrace" Kobe, but Kobe "never accepted the embrace". I post about the exit interview in 04 where Kobe refused to make it work with Shaq even though Shaq agreed to make it work with Kobe, and it's written off as nonsense. You see the double standard? But if I post those things, although they came from the players and coaches themselves, it's me "hating" on Kobe. As I said before- I don't need to hate on anyone. I let their own actions do the damage. And if me posting about something a player did wrong is "hating", well, I just "hated" on Shaq earlier. What does that mean???

[yongaz]

You realize its you same 3-5 "overzealous" Laker Fan's who ruin most Kobe threads right?
I love the idea of you guys ignoring me though, please follow through on that one.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xjgiDrpnwo&feature=related[/youtube]

Done.







DOH!


Train wreck. Freak show. Circus Clown. Monkey drinking own pee.

I just can't stay away!

[jaypo]

Oh, and Vincent. Just to clarify- the police found a bloody shirt and matched the blood to the victim. They also found a bruise on her left jaw which came from Kobe holding her down by her neck. Now, if it was consentual, why did he have to hold her down so hard that it made a bruise???

I can't say with 100% certainty that he raped her. Nobody knows that for sure except for he and his accuser. But I can say that from the information that I've read, I believe that it started out consentual and ended up badly. I believe that they started willingly, and that Kobe forced her into anal sex. She told him to stop, but he didn't. Do I think he violently raped her? No. But I think he didn't stop initially when she told him to and went farther than she wanted him to go. He didn't finish, which leads me to believe that he stopped before HE tought he went too far. But not when she initially told him no.

To clarify- maybe I used a poor choice of wording earlier. Hell, it's been about 5 years since I researched the topic. But the initial FINDINGS were enough to arrest and prosecute Kobe. There was a shirt with blood on it, a shirt with his semen on it, and a bruise on her jaw. I know I said the results of the rape exam was consistent with rape, and you're right- it wasn't. What I meant was that the initial findings in the case were consistent with rape as I stated above. Forgive me- I usually have a pretty good memory, but 5 years is a long time.

There. Are you happy now?? Would you like to try to twist that?

[jaypo]

Andrewchos- I enjoy your appreciation for Shaq. But I'm going to give you a little advice. Eventually, you'll learn who the real LAKER fans are vs. the Kobe fans. You cannot win when you battle the Kobe fanboys because they are not rational. HOWEVER, there are some good KOBE FANS around here, and you'll learn who they are as well. But you have to understand that a true FAN will be as passionate about Kobe as we are about Shaq. It doesn't mean that they can't be objective. But they will side with Kobe at all costs. They are the ones that remain civil.

But you have to remember- Shaq isn't an angel. He has done his share to contribute to the opinions that people have of him. His ego caused him to walk from Orlando. (I believe with good reason, but that's beside the point). His ego wouldn't allow his relationship with Kobe to work as it should have. He demanded too much money for an extension with the Lakers. He had surgery too late which put the 03 season at risk and was out of shape most of that season. If Vincent's reports are correct, he cheated on his wife. And I will not defend any of that. I can't. Those actions happened and they speak for themselves. We have to come to grips with that. But what we CAN do is refute wrong statements and conjecture by providing proof. The real Kobe FANS will accept it. The FANBOYS won't. It's like beating your head against the wall, but sometimes it gets funny (like pretty much every argument with Vincent666!)

Note to real Laker and Kobe fans- I thoroughly enjoyed 96-04. I think Kobe and Shaq did some amazing things together, and I almost cried when Shaq was traded. I believe that they could have been the best 1-2 punch in history if they remained together. I think the next 3 titles would have been theirs, and they would have tied MJ and Pippen. But it didn't work out that way. I believe Kobe is the player with the best combination of talent and dedication to the game since MJ. I believe has been the best in the league overall for the last few years (Lebron lacks the heart and Wade lacks the accolades). I have no hate for him at all. I have no dislike for him at all. I disagree with a lot of crap he did. But I'm the same way about everybody. I loved MJ as a player. But he had a gambling problem, was an azzhole to teammates, and after watching his HOF speech, I realized that he wasn't a very nice person. But the quality that makes him that way is the same quality that made him the GOAT. That will to win at all costs. And Kobe shares that. Which is why he is the best in the game right now. But I don't just value an athlete by what he does on the court.

[Father Time]

Jaypo, you kind of made my point. It's a lot easier to be objective when you acknowledge your own bias. I don't think you're a Kobe hater, either. But just because you aren't doesn't mean they don't exist. There are plenty of them on this board.

I read a lot of articles by this blogger who is a big Kobe fan. He writes about a lot of Kobe versus LeBron stuff. He admits he is bias because he's a Kobe fan, but he writes some terrific and objective articles. He admits that LeBron is better than Kobe in certain areas of the game, while still being a Kobe fan. I don't know if this is making any sense, the point is he is bias but objective.

[jaypo]

I agree with you, laball81. I've said time and time again that I have a bias for Shaq. But that doesn't mean I can't be objective about Kobe at the same time. I've also admitted that I think Kobe is the best in the league overall. He is more dedicated to the game than Shaq. More talented than Shaq. And a better overall "basketball player" than Shaq. But I'd prefer Shaq because I've been watching him since he was in high school which was years before I ever heard of Kobe. (For the record, after Lebron gave up in the playoffs this year, I think he lacks heart, and therefore cannot be better than Kobe)

My problem is with people that can't accept that a person can be a fan of 1 and not be objective about the other. And I've found that if you post something about Kobe, it had better be praise, or you're hating on him. For example-I always post the "I'm tired of being a sidekick" example when I express why I assign blame to Kobe for the breakup. Now, remember, these words came out of Kobe's own mouth. But because I post things like that, I'm accused of being a Kobe hater. I use that and other things that Kobe actually did as a basis to form my opinion of Kobe's role in the breakup. I have NEVER said that Shaq is without blame NOR did I ever say that Kobe was 100% at fault. But I formed an opinion about both players, and in my OPINION, I believe Kobe was more to blame than Shaq, but not 10% at fault. And I cite mostly facts as the basis for that opinion. But because I have that opinion, I'm accused of hating Kobe and not being objective. And it goes back to the Kobe fanboys (not fans) that cannot accept that a player can like Shaq and NOT dislike Kobe at the same time. I've said a million times before that I have no feeling for Kobe. No like. No dislike. Just neutral. But because I prefer Shaq, I can't be objective! Sedale always claims he knows more about my feelings than I do. And that kind of stupidity irks me, especially from someone as respected around here as he is.

I'll finish on this note- Shaq has had beef with Howard (although WAY overblown). Yet, I still enjoy watching him play. Apparently (according to Shaq haters), he and Wade had issues. But he is one of my favorite players in the league. You see the pattern? Hell, he and Riley almost came to blows, and I still think he is one of the GOAT coaches! It is possible to be objective about someone even if you disagree with things he has done, and even though he is NOT your favorite player!

[jaypo]

Jaypo, you kind of made my point. It's a lot easier to be objective when you acknowledge your own bias. I don't think you're a Kobe hater, either. But just because you aren't doesn't mean they don't exist. There are plenty of them on this board.

I read a lot of articles by this blogger who is a big Kobe fan. He writes about a lot of Kobe versus LeBron stuff. He admits he is bias because he's a Kobe fan, but he writes some terrific and objective articles. He admits that LeBron is better than Kobe in certain areas of the game, while still being a Kobe fan. I don't know if this is making any sense, the point is he is bias but objective.

I think another problem is that the real Kobe haters probably ruin things for people like me. Because after reading someone post scathing OPINIONS about Kobe, it probably pisses them off, much the same way reading wrong opinions of Shaq pisses me off. And when someone like me tries to clear misconceptions up, they aren't accepted because they're branded with the Hater tag. I do agree that it is easier to be objective when you realize your own bias. For example, knowing I'm biased towards Shaq is the whole reason I was able to look at Kobe's on court play objectively. When the feud started escalating, I quit viewing it as a partnership and started viewing games observing both players individually. That's when I formed my opinions about Kobe being selfish. However, it never made me dislike him. It just made me realize why Shaq did and said a lot of the things he did and made me side more with him. While they were together, they were 1a and 1b as far as my favorite players. But when I took off the "Kobe Homer" glasses and viewed him objectively, that's when I formed my opinions. And the majority of them are reinforced by things that coaches, gm's, players, and writers have confirmed. Does that make me dislike him? No. The same way hearing about all the crap Shaq has pulled doesn't affect my like/dislike for him. It just makes me realize certain things. But apparently, it's wrong to put those things in writing, because you become a hater!

[Father Time]

I agree with you, laball81. I've said time and time again that I have a bias for Shaq. But that doesn't mean I can't be objective about Kobe at the same time. I've also admitted that I think Kobe is the best in the league overall. He is more dedicated to the game than Shaq. More talented than Shaq. And a better overall "basketball player" than Shaq. But I'd prefer Shaq because I've been watching him since he was in high school which was years before I ever heard of Kobe. (For the record, after Lebron gave up in the playoffs this year, I think he lacks heart, and therefore cannot be better than Kobe)

My problem is with people that can't accept that a person can be a fan of 1 and not be objective about the other. And I've found that if you post something about Kobe, it had better be praise, or you're hating on him. For example-I always post the "I'm tired of being a sidekick" example when I express why I assign blame to Kobe for the breakup. Now, remember, these words came out of Kobe's own mouth. But because I post things like that, I'm accused of being a Kobe hater. I use that and other things that Kobe actually did as a basis to form my opinion of Kobe's role in the breakup. I have NEVER said that Shaq is without blame NOR did I ever say that Kobe was 100% at fault. But I formed an opinion about both players, and in my OPINION, I believe Kobe was more to blame than Shaq, but not 10% at fault. And I cite mostly facts as the basis for that opinion. But because I have that opinion, I'm accused of hating Kobe and not being objective. And it goes back to the Kobe fanboys (not fans) that cannot accept that a player can like Shaq and NOT dislike Kobe at the same time. I've said a million times before that I have no feeling for Kobe. No like. No dislike. Just neutral. But because I prefer Shaq, I can't be objective! Sedale always claims he knows more about my feelings than I do. And that kind of stupidity irks me, especially from someone as respected around here as he is.

I'll finish on this note- Shaq has had beef with Howard (although WAY overblown). Yet, I still enjoy watching him play. Apparently (according to Shaq haters), he and Wade had issues. But he is one of my favorite players in the league. You see the pattern? Hell, he and Riley almost came to blows, and I still think he is one of the GOAT coaches! It is possible to be objective about someone even if you disagree with things he has done, and even though he is NOT your favorite player!

Yeah I also agree with you. For example, I'm a Kobe fan, but there's no way in hell I think Kobe comes close to MJ as a player. Kobe ranks at about 9-10 for me all time, and I'm not ashamed to admit that there are better players than him. I also agree that he should bear a lot of the blame for the breakup as he was a selfish and immature young player. But I also feel that Shaq could have handled the situation much better than he did. I don't really want to get into that right now.

Personally, I think that LeBron has been the best player in the league for a couple of years now. I don't like the guy as a person at all, but I respect him as a player. And even though I'm a Kobe fan, I realize that admitting LeBron's better doesn't take anything away from Kobe, as he's a great player in his own right.

Sorry, this is starting to turn into a rant, but I hope it makes sense. I believe you can be objective when talking about Shaq, just like I can be objective when talking about Kobe. Unfortunately some people can't.

[jaypo]

Personally, I'd rather have Kobe from the last 3 years on my team than any version of Lebron. Lebron just doesn't have the "IT" that Kobe does. Neither did AI, TMac, or VC. Wade does, and we'll see much of it he has now that he has some help.

I think Shaq could have handled everything differently. I believe that he made an effort to reach out, but Kobe wasn't very receptive. A lot of the things that Shaq said were uncalled for. But I always point to the fact that they were said or done in response to something that he didn't agree with. I think they both are idiots for their respective roles in the breakup, because they could have retired as the best 1-2 punch in history.

I remember being pissed at Shaq for leaving the Magic. I'd grown to love that team. I was pretty pissed when he was traded to Miami also. But I'm glad I got to watch him in the finals half the time he was in LA. I just wish he could have accepted a smaller role in LA to allow Kobe to become the man (and I think that is where Phil deserves blame- he kept Shaq as the 1st option knowing Kobe was itching to step up. He could have eased Kobe along thru his coaching, but he didn't).

Anyhow, it's been real cool discussing this matter in a civil manner with a TRUE LA and Kobe fan. Thanks for the insight. It's been a pleasure, and Merry Christmas to all you guys. I'm outa here!

[Father Time]

Personally, I'd rather have Kobe from the last 3 years on my team than any version of Lebron. Lebron just doesn't have the "IT" that Kobe does. Neither did AI, TMac, or VC. Wade does, and we'll see much of it he has now that he has some help.

I think Shaq could have handled everything differently. I believe that he made an effort to reach out, but Kobe wasn't very receptive. A lot of the things that Shaq said were uncalled for. But I always point to the fact that they were said or done in response to something that he didn't agree with. I think they both are idiots for their respective roles in the breakup, because they could have retired as the best 1-2 punch in history.

I remember being pissed at Shaq for leaving the Magic. I'd grown to love that team. I was pretty pissed when he was traded to Miami also. But I'm glad I got to watch him in the finals half the time he was in LA. I just wish he could have accepted a smaller role in LA to allow Kobe to become the man (and I think that is where Phil deserves blame- he kept Shaq as the 1st option knowing Kobe was itching to step up. He could have eased Kobe along thru his coaching, but he didn't).

Anyhow, it's been real cool discussing this matter in a civil manner with a TRUE LA and Kobe fan. Thanks for the insight. It's been a pleasure, and Merry Christmas to all you guys. I'm outa here!

Fair enough, I respect how you see things. I also appreciate the amount of thought you put into your posts. Have a good holiday.

[JordansBulls]

Seems like too many things can go wrong with Shaq/Wade to have consistent dominance.

This

[LascelleL]

Andrew and Vincent......STFU I can't read any Shaq/Kobe threads because you guys keep **** hijacking them with your own vendettas

[Andrewchos]

Be quiet Lascelle, its the "overzealous Laker fans" who always ruin these threads, dont blame me for defending my own opinions.

@NO-KG-AI / Jordansbulls.

During the two year's Wade had a relatively healthy Shaq on his team they both got along perfectly and dominated the league, I don't see any reason if Wade was teamed with a Younger Shaq they wouldn't be able to dominate for 5-10+ years.

[initiald]

Be quiet Lascelle, its the "overzealous Laker fans" who always ruin these threads, dont blame me for defending my own opinions.

@NO-KG-AI / Jordansbulls.

During the two year's Wade had a relatively healthy Shaq on his team they both got along perfectly and dominated the league, I don't see any reason if Wade was teamed with a Younger Shaq they wouldn't be able to dominate for 5-10+ years.

They won't play with each other for 3 years, what make you think they can coexist for 5-10 years?

Shaq and Wade have problem. Search Google or ask any Miami Heats fans.

[Andrewchos]

Shaq was already injured during his second year their (the 06 run year) and still produced good numbers, but he was injured and was nothing more then a shell of himself the following year. Shaq and Wade had no problems when Shaq was healthy and actually playing for the team, you obviously have no idea what your talking about in this case so why even put your opinion out there?

[Wavy Q]

Andrew and Vincent......STFU I can't read any Shaq/Kobe threads because you guys keep **** hijacking them with your own vendettas

+1

[Andrewchos]

Cant ignore the Fact that if Wade doesn't get injured in 05, the Heat make the Final's both year's with a way past his Prime Shaq and won in 06. If Wade had the same Shaq Kobe had during 99-04 the rest of the league wouldn't stand a chance.

I cant imagine a better combo then Shaq/Wade, except for maybe Shaq/Jordan.

That's why I cant imagine people taking the unproven duo of Duncan/Kobe over the guaranteed dominance of Shaq/Wade.

[initiald]

Shaq was already injured during his second year their (the 06 run year) and still produced good numbers, but he was injured and was nothing more then a shell of himself the following year. Shaq and Wade had no problems when Shaq was actually on the team, you obviously have no idea what your talking about in this case so why even put your opinion out there?

It is obvious you are clueless. The Wade and Shaq feud started with Wade making comment about Shaq out of condition. Then Shaq fought back and say something like don't worry about me, and then his feud with Pat Riley, then he got shipped out. He then made fun of Wade with a photoshopped picture of Wade in a woman body to show Wade is a whiner. lol

[Andrewchos]

There was no feuding in 05/06. Shaq was no longer his dominant self and was injured in 07 and played less then half the season and never played for the Heat again after that. So, for the two years Wade had a healthy Shaq there was no feuding, they got along perfectly, and they made it to the Finals twice taking home the chip in 06.

If Wade had a Young or Prime Shaq like Kobe had they wouldn't have had to tank in 07 and would have continued contending for Rings for years to come. Nice try though, do some research before you make an argument next time please.

[initiald]

There was no feuding in 05/06. Shaq was no longer his dominant self and was injured in 07 and played less then half the season and never played for the Heat again after that. So, for the two years Wade had a healthy Shaq there was no feuding, they got along perfectly, and they made it to the Finals twice taking home the chip in 06.

If Wade had a Young or Prime Shaq like Kobe had they wouldn't have had to tank in 07 and would have continued contending for Rings for years to come. Nice try though, do some research before you make an argument next time please.