Official CBA/Labour Talks Discussion Thread

[Schad]

I think I agree to most of your analysis hereby (in the second half of your post), and I think this is why the major owners want a clause to ensure they do not become the next Real Madrid or Barca

It's more the Man U model I'm worried about. That team is a money-printing machine, and unlike some of their competitors, they haven't splashed out cash they didn't have. Yet the Glazers placed the team in terrible financial shape by borrowing a massive amount of money, secured against the team at high interest rates, and then allowing the debt to pile up while taking a cut of income for other concerns. This was a club as profitable and well-run as any in the world, and they created a situation where (as late as 2010) it was possible that the team would end up being forfeited to the hedge funds holding their debt, a scenario only avoided when they raised money to pay off a large chunk of those debts through the issuance of bonds.

Make the on-court affair unimpeachably profitable, and someone will find a way to make the off-court side of the business unprofitable. We know this to be true because it has already happened.

[Indeed]

For the rest: If you managed a business or a part of it, you would know that the more you pay an employee: a. the lesser your profits are (duh!) (or in today market your business sustainability, which may apply to a number of NBA owners) and b. the more they, the empoyees, think they are entitled to so you set up future expectations which again may be usustainable.

I think you mis-understand a lot of things. NBA is providing a service, which means your assets are the players itself. Think of a car as a product, would you buy a good quality of expensive car, or you buy a poor quality of a cheap car in the high end market (since NBA is a high end market, it is not NBAD league).

From that direction, most companies (in factories producing goods or products), they have a labour cost of 50%, and the material cost are 10 - 20 %. If players themselves are part of the materials in terms of service, I believe they deserve more than 50%.

you can't randomly say the players deserve or don't deserve 50%. That number is pulled out of thin air as far as we're concerned. It's just the latest clawback Stern et al are looking for.

likewise as long as both sides are doing what's in their right, they are both “right” in their stance.

Well, what is being watched here? I believe it is the players. They are at least 50% of the business assets. And why I think the owners are being greedy, because they prefer to own the arena (to gain more assets) instead of leasing them, thus, it is a benefit to the owner to put them as an expense (loan), right? For those whos finished those loan (and make extra on sharing the arena or something), they can make much more on profits, I believe.

[Indeed]

Coon's article proves why it'd be dumb for the players to give up 2 weeks, but I think it's important to note the owners missing games hurts more than the diff between 50% and say 51 or 52%. That's only 40-60 mil total or 1-2 mil per owner next year. They could reschedule those 2 weeks of games at the end of the season and still lose that 1 to 2 million by having less ideal scheduling and tv setups

1-2 million is not worth missing games for the owners. They should really just take 51-49

The money could be more due to rescheduling arena, marketing campaign, customer services (refund and etc.).
Also disappointing fans might cause them on marketing as well.

[mirrornick]

Breaking : NBA and Union to meet tonight
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/sport ... .html?_r=1

seems like they might have no choice but to agree because these players will lose a lot of money in first two weeks.

I predict a 51% players 49% owners deal tonight.

[Indeed]

Breaking : NBA and Union to meet tonight
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/sport ... .html?_r=1

seems like they might have no choice but to agree because these players will lose a lot of money in first two weeks.

I predict a 51% players 49% owners deal tonight.

I hope this is how it ends. Both are winners.

[mirrornick]

Breaking : NBA and Union to meet tonight
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/sport ... .html?_r=1

seems like they might have no choice but to agree because these players will lose a lot of money in first two weeks.

I predict a 51% players 49% owners deal tonight.

I hope this is how it ends. Both are winners.

if they Fuc* up tonight then they are nothing but a bunch of stupid greedy bastards. The players are the ones who need to just swallow their pride and do what the fans want.

[DG88]

51.5%-48.5% is were this will end

[mirrornick]

51.5%-48.5% is were this will end

Stern: 51.5 - 48.5 and its done

Players: No 52-48 and its a deal

Stern: No good bye

[nahom1319]

Everyone start praying to the basketball gods, we need an Nba season. Seriously if they have one I pledge to go to at least 3 games during the winter semester alone.

[carlosey]

The players better take that 50-50 and move on with their lives because otherwise things get nasty from here on out. The union is really looking after the top dogs, but if they start missing paycheqyes the little guys will turn against the union.

[S.W.A.N]

The players better take that 50-50 and move on with their lives because otherwise things get nasty from here on out. The union is really looking after the top dogs, but if they start missing paycheqyes the little guys will turn against the union.

This simply not true. The way the CBA is set up is actually quite detrimental to the 'stars' it gives a higher income to the second tier of guys and the guaranteed contracts for vet players significantly helps the lower level talents.

However during negotiations it is important for the union to have the star players front and center during negotiations because they are the real revenue generators for the league. When the D Wades step up and say 'ya I worth 50 mill to the team (and its true) but you only paying me 20 mill ' what he really saying is 'You dumb @$%ers better negotiate with the union because if we decertify my crazed pitbull of an agent is going to get me $50 mill on a free market'




Will be interesting to see how tonight goes. I truly think they should go a deal at 51/49 it makes too much sense to not do it.

[Dr Positivity]

If Ken Berger's tweet is to believed, the owners are not stuck at 50 anymore. Which means a likely 1 or 2 percentage gap which I think can be gutted out before the Monday deadline

[Parataxis]

whoa my post was ripped apart:
- And finally to whoever says this (parastax or something):
"There is no direct co-relation between employee pay, and profitability. "
That is plain wrong (with notable exceptions).
Example: Pay Kapono more does he do better? Or will Lebron? Or Bosh? Or Kobe?

You're confusing paying your employees more, with paying specific employees more. There's a big difference.

If Store A offers their employees $10/hr, and Store B offers their employees $12/hr, then Store B is going to get the better, more qualified employees. As a result, their guys will be better able to sell/provide service/whatever. This will lead to better customer relations/more sales, which can increase profits (if managed poorly).

So no, paying employees more doesn't have to mean making less.

[mihaic]

^^ Trust me it is not that simple. Paying more does not necessarily motivate the employees better. You really have to be creative about it imo. This is not to say you have to rip off employees, but the right environment is a better motivator than money.

Example: Bosh and Lebron going to Miami.

If people don't get that well I am out

[mihaic]

I think I agree to most of your analysis hereby (in the second half of your post), and I think this is why the major owners want a clause to ensure they do not become the next Real Madrid or Barca

It's more the Man U model I'm worried about. That team is a money-printing machine, and unlike some of their competitors, they haven't splashed out cash they didn't have. Yet the Glazers placed the team in terrible financial shape by borrowing a massive amount of money, secured against the team at high interest rates, and then allowing the debt to pile up while taking a cut of income for other concerns. This was a club as profitable and well-run as any in the world, and they created a situation where (as late as 2010) it was possible that the team would end up being forfeited to the hedge funds holding their debt, a scenario only avoided when they raised money to pay off a large chunk of those debts through the issuance of bonds.

Make the on-court affair unimpeachably profitable, and someone will find a way to make the off-court side of the business unprofitable. We know this to be true because it has already happened.

I remember when I studied in England - funny story - and they found a guy who payed big time for the licence plate M1JTD (they will not re-issue them. or they didn't at the time) only to slightly paint it to look like MUTD. Money-printing machine is as good a characterisaton.

Now back to Raptors. I am actually impressed about the raptors financial capability, they really know how to run the business in a hockey town. Fault MLSE what you want but we have a basketbal team. Vancouver, with a better setting and weather doesn't. I think Toronto is so underrated at doing sports business (cue: worst sports city). Had they been a better market like New York or Boston (hockey "withstanding") they would smoke the NBA. But as a business person I doubt I would do much different - see what Miami and Lakers are doing, that is what the Leafs have to do. New York Knicks is so wrong as a business model, they have the wrong business model.

Dallas is an interesting one though, validating your model (I assume even they "lost" money Cuban made it back, he is a practical guy).

I guess when doing business there is no "safe" model, you have to find the right one for you, and stick to it while it works.

As long as you don't go from #1 computer company to #1 ink and toner company

[bboyskinnylegs]

As labor meeting unfolds in NY, several NBA execs have hope of deal in next 24-48 hours. Why? They don't have faith in players holding line.

[Indeed]

^^ Trust me it is not that simple. Paying more does not necessarily motivate the employees better. You really have to be creative about it imo. This is not to say you have to rip off employees, but the right environment is a better motivator than money.

Example: Bosh and Lebron going to Miami.

If people don't get that well I am out

Paying more does not necessarily motivate the employees, that is correct.
But it can attract talent. And your example (Miami) showed exactly how the records and their revenue goes, they make more by paying more to top talent players (they even fire their sales people, and made extra going into the Finals).

[carlosey]

The players better take that 50-50 and move on with their lives because otherwise things get nasty from here on out. The union is really looking after the top dogs, but if they start missing paycheqyes the little guys will turn against the union.

This simply not true. The way the CBA is set up is actually quite detrimental to the 'stars' it gives a higher income to the second tier of guys and the guaranteed contracts for vet players significantly helps the lower level talents.

However during negotiations it is important for the union to have the star players front and center during negotiations because they are the real revenue generators for the league. When the D Wades step up and say 'ya I worth 50 mill to the team (and its true) but you only paying me 20 mill ' what he really saying is 'You dumb @$%ers better negotiate with the union because if we decertify my crazed pitbull of an agent is going to get me $50 mill on a free market'




Will be interesting to see how tonight goes. I truly think they should go a deal at 51/49 it makes too much sense to not do it.

I understand your point, but Wade and co can sit it out a year with the money they make with advertisements etc before they break a sweat. A guy like sonny weems will be crapping his pants from day one. They are on a different situation and any missed paycheques affect the majority. The top 20 are just the big dogs out of a league of 400+.

For shure lets see what happens tonight but I dont think both sides are close to a deal.

[highness]

@WojYahooNBA
Adrian Wojnarowski
A league source briefed on labor meeting within past two hours tells Y!: "No progress yet." Talks pushing past fifth hour here in NY now.

wtf do they do for 5 hours then???

[bboyskinnylegs]

if they don't reach an agreement now things are likely going to get very ugly