ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (Round 2, send me your drops)

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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Thurs) 

Post#21 » by lorak » Wed Dec 7, 2011 10:09 pm

My S5 vs MJallday59 (Frazier, Mullin, P. Pierce, Sikma, Hakeem and Iverson, Starks, GWallace, Horace, Bellamy):
Rose
Bowen
Pippen
Hawkins
Reed
Bench: Rodman, Laimbeer, Horry, Chandler, Hornacek

My team is designed to be like better version of 2011 Bulls (who were top 10 defensive team since 1974!). Of course my team is not only better on defensive end than CHI ‘11 but also on offense – Hawkins and Reed (both MVPs) were great (Connie) or very good (Reed) offensive players.

My opponent have very nice team, but I’m not afraid of his perimeter players. Sure, he have all time great shooters (Mullin and Pierce), but I have all time great perimeter defenders – who’s better to chasing trough the screens than Bowen? Who’s more annoying defender than Rodman? Who’s more versatile perimeter defender than Pippen? My players are generally stronger, quicker, longer and tougher, so I’m feeling good about perimeter.

Big men are different story and Hakeem with Sikma is very interesting combination. While Sikma shouldn’t be much of a problem, I know I will not stop Hakeem. But the question is – can he win “alone” when all of his teammates would be limited by my great defenders?

Also my big men all have range – only to about 15-20 feet like Reed or Hawkins or to three point line like Horry or Laimbeer (Rodman wouldn’t play a lot as a PF in that matchup). So whoever Hakeem will defend, he would take Olajuwon away from the basket, so that way paint would be more open for Rose’s (or Pippen’s) penetration. I know, Frazier was great defender, but it’s impossible to stop so quick player like Rose without help – and here would be no help, because Hakeem would be away from the basket and the rest of MJallday’s team isn’t good help defenders, except Horace and GWallace (and besides you can’t leave open Bowen, Pippen or Hornacek or even some of my big men like Horry or Laimbeer).

Overall I think my team is better on defense and except of Hakeem I matchup extremely well against MJallday’s team, because of my great perimeters defenders. On offense I don’t think Frazier could stop Rose, and even if he would limit him I still have several +20 ppg scores with Connie leading the way and Sikma on defense wouldn’t be able to stop him.

I also feel I should tell something about Connie Hawkins. It’s true he was ABA’s MVP when that league wasn’t too strong, but keep in mind that he improved in playoffs and when he joined NBA two years later and was after knees injury (!) his numbers weren’t much worse - still high volume, very efficient scorer, great passer for his size and ok rebounder; he also was underrated defender. Maybe these quotes from great Terry Pluto book would say more about Connie:
Steve Jones wrote:The Hawk gave our league instant credibility and brought us a lot of attention. For years, everyone had heard how great the guy was, but very, very few people saw him play. Well, the ABA became his first stage. And the thins was that because Pittsburgh had a lot of talent, Connie just cruised during much of the regular season. He was maybe three levels above everyone else, so he could take it easy and still get his 25-30 points and 10-12 rebounds every night. He was good people. He just wanted to play ball and to get along with the other guys. He was doing things with the basketball, with those huge hands of his, that people had never seen before. Just about all the stuff Julius Erving did palming the ball, Connie did first. So that first year, I don’t think The Hawk ever let himself go until playoffs; then he showed that he really knew how to carry the load of a team on his back.


Bob Bass wrote:One night, Pittsburgh coach Vince Cazzetta was sick and he asked Connie to coach the team. I was coaching Denver and I was very interested to see what Connie would do. Well, he took it very seriously, probably too seriously. He concentrated so much on coaching that he hardly played himself (…) W won both games and I told my players: “Let’s be thankful that The Hawk felt more like coaching than playing”.


Charlie Williams wrote:Connie deserved a lot of the credit for making us into a team. Let’s face it, he was a tremendous, overwhelming talent. He could decided he was going to average 50 points a game and been able to do it. But he loved and understood team basketball. He would get on Chico Vaughn and myself not to shoot so much from the outside. But he wouldn’t say, “Get me the ball.” He’d say, “Let’s move the ball around. Let everyone touch it.”
(…)
No matter what Mikan or anyone wanted, Connie knew how the game was supposed to be played and he talked a lot about passing and defense. He was true student of the game. He’d say to me, “Hey Charlie, watch me close tonight. See if you can find something to make me better.” When a guy of Connie’s ability says that to you, it makes you look at your game in the mirror, too. He really was a leader, and by the end of the year, guys got the message.

(…)
In the finals, we had to play New Orleans. Those guys were hood – with Doug Moe, Larry Brown and Jimmy Jones – and they got up 3-2 on us, with the chance to win the title in Game 6 in New Orleans. (…) Connie took over the game. He just wouldn’t let us lose (…) Connie had 41 points, and we won 118-112. He did it against Doug Moe, who was the best defensive forward in the league.

(In game 7 Hawkins had 20 points, 16 rebounds and 9 assists)


Mel Daniels wrote:Connie Hawkins was our first true star, in the sense that he was a great player whose style attracted a lot of attention, yet he also played an all-around game. The guy who didn’t know basketball that well could look at Connie for 15 minutes and know that Connie was great. Then a guy who was a basketball person could watch Connie and see the subtle things – his passing, how he blocked shots and rebounded and knew how to help out his teammates on defense. I am convinced that the Connie Hawkins led Pittsburgh to that first title could play in the NBA and be on the same level as Magic Johnson, Larry Bird and Michael Jordan are today. The Connie Hawkins that eventually got into the NBA was nearly 30, he had a couple of knee problems – it wasn’t the same guy.
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Thurs) 

Post#22 » by bastillon » Wed Dec 7, 2011 11:07 pm

Nash (34)/Williams (14)
Johnson (32)/(Carter (16)
Dandridge (32)/(Carter (16) (Carter may start, depending on the matchup)
Lucas (35)/Beaty (11)
Walton (33)/Beaty (15)

Snake can you precisely say who you're playing ? are you seriously gonna use Jerry Lucas here ? I need to know that before I make my gameplan, you know... I'm asking because I'm wondering if you forgot about Nance or you're excluding him on purpose.

here's my lineup in case you want to know:
Pressey vs Nash
Iguodala vs Marques
TMac vs Dandridge
McAdoo vs ??
Duncan vs Walton

bench:
Sheed for about 30 mins
Worthy for about 30 mins
Blaylock when Nash is out
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Thurs) 

Post#23 » by -Kees- » Wed Dec 7, 2011 11:23 pm

bastillon wrote:Dirk is actually one of the better defensive rebounders in the league in terms of playoff play. it's ORB% that hurts him, but that has more to do with his perimeter oriented style of play than his actual skills. Dirk was surely a good rebounder overall. also, ranking players on seperate categories of boxscore stats doesn't really make sense to me.


I know you are new to this, but usually we don't comment on people's writeups (or at least the games I've been in we haven't) - thats what explaining your vote is for later. I don't think anyone should have to face 2 people's POV, and if Luke didn't bring up your points, then I shouldn't have to argue against them, because this is me against Luke.

I'm going to respond to your points because I'm not letting someone other than me or my opponent have the last words.

Dirk wasn't that good of a rebounder. He was 23rd in the league in DRB/G. I wouldn't say that he was "one of the better defensive rebounders" at all. Playoffs he did go up, but playoffs is only a handful of games, the larger reg season shows he wasn't that great at all.

I'm not exactly sure what the 2nd part of your post meant "ranking players on seperate categories of boxscore stats doesn't really make sense to me". If that is referring to posting Kobe's stats, that was to make a point. Luke brought up the point that Kobe doesn't get shut down, when about 25% of the games he got 7 points or more below his average. Everyone has off nights, but saying that Kobe doesn't get slowed down is not true, especially against a very tough defense like mine.
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Thurs) 

Post#24 » by bastillon » Wed Dec 7, 2011 11:31 pm

I'll answer in my vote, then.
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Thurs) 

Post#25 » by dockingsched » Wed Dec 7, 2011 11:32 pm

pg: Shane Battier 16 / Baron Davis 32
sg: Dwyane Wade 38 / Shane Battier 10
sf: Carmelo Anthony 35 / Glen Rice 13
pf: Kevin Garnett 38 / Blake Griffin 10
c: Dikembe Mutombo 30 / Jermaine O'neal 18 / Elmore Smith Foul trouble

vs.

CD:

w/o Wilt:
Johnson(40)/Richardson(8)
Miller(36)/Johnson(12)
Hondo(40)/Elliott(8)
Kemp(36)/McGinnis(12)
Lanier(36)/Divac(12)

Strategy:

O: Pound the ball to Melo and have Wade take it to Reggie. Battier/KG/Rice/JO/Davis give great spacing that allows them to work. Davis/Griffin/JO give us a run n gun bench.

D: KG/Deke/JO shut down the middle, Battier/Wade check the guards. Melo's strength helps force his man into elite help defense.

good luck CD!
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Thurs) 

Post#26 » by CellarDoor » Thu Dec 8, 2011 4:22 am

Are you ever going to pick years for your players dock? :p
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Thurs) 

Post#27 » by Miller4ever » Thu Dec 8, 2011 4:55 am

Pick years for him. '93 Garnett and '11 Glen Rice.
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Thurs) 

Post#28 » by Snakebites » Thu Dec 8, 2011 6:31 am

bastillon wrote:Nash (34)/Williams (14)
Johnson (32)/(Carter (16)
Dandridge (32)/(Carter (16) (Carter may start, depending on the matchup)
Lucas (35)/Beaty (11)
Walton (33)/Beaty (15)

Snake can you precisely say who you're playing ? are you seriously gonna use Jerry Lucas here ? I need to know that before I make my gameplan, you know... I'm asking because I'm wondering if you forgot about Nance or you're excluding him on purpose.

here's my lineup in case you want to know:
Pressey vs Nash
Iguodala vs Marques
TMac vs Dandridge
McAdoo vs ??
Duncan vs Walton

bench:
Sheed for about 30 mins
Worthy for about 30 mins
Blaylock when Nash is out


I have Maurice, not Jerry. Also Dennis, not Marques. But neither are starting.

And heres the rotation I'm actually using:

Steve Nash 05’-06’ (35)/Gus Williams 81’-82’ (13)
Vince Carter 00’-01’ (16)/Dennis Johnson 81’-82’ (32)
Bob Dandridge 78’-79’ (32)/Vince Carter 00’-01’ (16)
Larry Nance 87’88’ (26)/Maurice Lucas 76’-77’ (22) (with Nance to match up with Mcadoo, whenever he's playing)
Bill Walton 76’-77’ (34)/Zelmo Beaty 70’-71’ (14)
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Thurs) 

Post#29 » by bastillon » Thu Dec 8, 2011 8:23 am

Steve Nash 05’-06’ (35)/Gus Williams 81’-82’ (13)
Vince Carter 00’-01’ (16)/Dennis Johnson 81’-82’ (32)
Bob Dandridge 78’-79’ (32)/Vince Carter 00’-01’ (16)
Maurice Lucas 76’-77’ (22)/Larry Nance 87’88’ (26)
Bill Walton 76’-77’ (34)/Zelmo Beaty 70’-71’ (14)


thanks for clarification. I swear I would be wasting my time going after Jerry Lucas defense :lol:

first of all, Pressey's value to the Bucks: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1138569
the best part of these games is that we get to learn about other players and I'm hoping you will try to look at Pressey in different light now. empirically he had a great impact. basically Milwaukee was a 30 win team without him and 50 win with him during these years. and of course they fell off a cliff once he became a 24 mpg player. Pressey is a great player, sort of like homeless Magic on offense (he was similar to Magic in a lot of ways offensively) and Scottie Pippen on defense. he was the anchor of Bucks defense in the mid 80s, not Moncrief (when Moncrief missed games, Bucks didn't regress one bit on defense!)

Iguodala's defensive impact: viewtopic.php?p=28724231#p28724231
Hollinger on Iguodala:
Defensively, however, Iguodala is a master -- the league's best perimeter defender this side of Tony Allen. Iguodala also combined a sky-high steals rate with one of the lowest foul rates in basketball -- just 1.77 per 40 minutes. Only six players were lower, and none of them were checking James and Kobe Bryant every night.

The data backs up the subjective case for Iguodala's defensive excellence. Philadelphia was 4.02 points per 100 possessions better defensively with Iguodala on the court, while Synergy rated him the third-best defender at his position, behind only James and Ron Artest. The most impressive stat, however, is that Iguodala held opposing small forwards to a miniscule 10.2 PER last season.


I'm going with backcourt of Pressey/Iguodala, with TMAC guarding Dandridge, McAdoo matched up against Mo Lucas and Duncan against Walton. Worthy will bring scoring punch off the bench, Sheed and Blaylock are giving me the defense and 3pt shooting.

offensively, I'm trying to attack Steve Nash posting up whoever he'll be guarding (Pressey, Iguodala or TMac). not only that'll result in double team, but also make Nash work on defense instead of resting. in case you wanted to put DJ on Pressey, he was being destroyed in the post by Pressey in their h2h matchups in 86-87 playoffs, so Celtics sent double teams right away. Pressey was not a great scorer in general, but he was strong as hell and will have the advantage against the weaker defender inside if left to play man-to-man. Nash can't really guard Iguodala either, he gives up too many pounds. I will use Pressey against Nash at all times and get him out of the game only when Nash is absent. I think you have double down low...Pressey's passing was his main offensive asset.

my another target is Bill Walton. I'm trying to get Duncan going early against Walton in the post hoping he can pick up quick fouls. Walton often had foul trouble and if I can get him out of the game, Snake's defense is going to fall off a cliff. to give you a good example, Walton '77 was often in foul trouble against Artis Gilmore in the Bulls-Blazers series (and was outscored as well as outrebounded). as much as I love Walton's skillset he just wasn't that good a man defender. Kareem also put up about 35 ppg on 60% FG in those playoffs against Walton. Duncan's not gonna be stopped without double teams.

Walton doesn't have a strong backup as Zelmo Beaty is one of the worst bigs in this competition. he's not a defensive anchor and he's undersized which may be an issue against Duncan and Sheed. defensive rebounding is a huge issue without Walton, because Beaty had 20% DRB (that's Channing Frye level) which is pretty bad already...except that he was doing it in the early 70s ABA which makes him even worse. he was pulling 11-12 boards per36 in the 60s so that means he had about 12-13% TRB...and 1/3 of those was on offense (if his performance was consistent with ABA years) which means he was just a terrible defensive rebounder. how will Snakebites play defense without Walton in the game ? that's at least 15 mins of play and in case of foul trouble this is a disaster. Beaty is not gonna compete against Duncan or McAdoo on the boards. least we forget Nash is guarding Pressey down low all game long so there's a great rebounding advantage already (that way Nash can't start the fastbreak because he's not midcourt when the fastbreak starts but near the baseline). Iguodala, TMac and Worthy will get to the offensive glass at times as well, especially with Beaty in the game.

so my primary options are to get Nash and Walton in foul trouble but I also have other options in McAdoo and TMac, 2 of the greatest scorers of all time. needless to say, their instant offense will help out a lot and I'm not gonna make them spot up shooters. the reason why I'm posting up "lesser" offensive threats is to make the defense collapse which will lead to open shots from McAdoo, McGrady, Iguodala, Worthy, Rasheed and Blaylock. spacing is there. either you're leaving Nash with Pressey (or Iguodala) on the block or you're leaving the shooters open.

I tried to build balanced offense with efficient scorers who can play well without the ball and pass. I'm hoping I achieved that goal.

defensively,

my main focus is Nash, obviously. as his big fan I know he's had problems at times with guys bigger than his size. he's great pick and roll player so it's not like they can stop them on their own, but I'll go after Nash on every pick and roll, trapping him and making him kick it out to shooters. if DJ shoots midrange jumpshots and someone is closing out on him, that's fine.

Snake's dangerous offense has great ball movement and man movement so I'm trying to force the ball out of the paint (and out of Nash's hands). my perimeter defenders are extremely tall, with Pressey, Iguodala and TMac playing basically like 6'9 guys with their long arms. I'm staying inside and trying to close out on shooters, but as long as they're shooting midrange jumpshots, I'm okay with that. if DJ and Dandridge are both in the game I might use some zone defense hoping my length would bother them as well.

Iguodala and Pressey are one of the most impactful perimeter defenders in the game and Duncan is one of the best defensive anchors. I don't have any weak links either, even with guys like McAdoo posting over 2 bpg and grabbing 25% DRB and TMac was one of the most talented defenders at his peak, one that couldn't focus on that end of the floor with those poor ass teams in Orlando, but was considered by most all-defensive material when motivated. I know boxscore stats aren't particularly useful in terms of defensive impact, but food for thought:

Pressey ~2.7 stl%
TMac ~2.1 stl%
Iguodala ~2.2 stl%
Blaylock ~3.5 stl%
Worthy 1.8 stl%

that's potentially a fastbreak nightmare and a great defensive talent for trapping. athleticism is overwhelming. Snakebites lucky to have great offensive team, a lesser offense could've been potentially swarmed.

I feel like I can make Snake work for his points with that long team but he can't stop me from scoring and has - let's face it - poor defensive team without Walton in the game. in case of foul trouble this is a blowout. Beaty is not competing with Duncan on the glass when his trb% is 65% of Duncan's. McAdoo can dominate him on the glass as well. that's the key 15 mins here (or more). I don't believe Snake can stay competitive during that period. given that Moses is paused for this game, this is gonna hurt him big time. no rebounding and defense for 1/3 of the game.
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Thurs) 

Post#30 » by dockingsched » Thu Dec 8, 2011 2:37 pm

CellarDoor wrote:Are you ever going to pick years for your players dock? :p


i had it up and running in the roster thread!
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Saturday No 

Post#31 » by CellarDoor » Thu Dec 8, 2011 8:58 pm

Johnson(36)/Richardson(12)
Miller(36)/Johnson(12)
Hondo(40)/Elliott(8)
Kemp(36)/McGinnis(12)
Lanier(40)/Divac(8)

Offense:
The beauty of my team and the place in which Dock’s team lacks the most, is off-ball scoring and spacing. We don’t have a ton of guys who feel the need to dominate the ball and know where to be on the floor and when. The offense will be intiated by Kevin Johnson most of the time and will be very similar to the recent Celtic’s style with multiple people able to get the ball to my guys in a place to score and they’ll finish like they’re used to. The biggest difference and the reason this offense is so effective is the change from Rondo to Johnson. Johnson is an absolutely deadly scorer and can’t be played off as evidenced by his 22ppg on a blazing 60% TS in his selected season. He’s also used to playing with secondary creators as was the case with Hornacek that season.
Flanking him are two of the best in the busines at off-ball movement and scoring in Miller and Hondo. They’re in constant motion and require constant attention. Miller’s obviously one of the greatest shooters ever, but Hondo was no slouch himself either. Down low we’ve got a frighteningly effective guy going to the basket in Shawn Kemp to run the PnR with (the third starter over 60% TS) He’s going to demand all of KG’s attention at all times. If he tries to help, even he can get burned by Kemps quickness, power, and finishing ability. Equally problematic is Bob Lanier. He’s going to force Mutombo to choose between letting Lanier feast with his imposing outside game. Once Mutombo makes his decision, either KJ and Kemp only have their own men to beat (and McGinnis, MRR, JJ), or Lanier’s scoring 30-35.

Defense:
As mentioned, I’m not in love with Dock’s team offense. Their 3 wings are incredibly ball dominant and the best shooter amongst them is Baron Davis. Down low we’ve got the offensively anemic Mutombo and KG. Now obviously Melo and Wade are elite offensive players, but what’s the other one doing while one is going to work? And worse, what are both doing when Davis or KG is going to work. Wade’s not awful off ball, but Carmelo is. We’ll take advantage of Mutombo’s lack of offensive ability to get Lanier involved in protecting the basket. We feel like the offense is going to feature a lot of bad odds situations for the opponent where it turns into one guy driving into three.

Rebounding:
Looking at the years and minutes, It’s going to be pretty even. He’s got a slight advantage in the starting 5, but my backups get that advantage back from the likes of Rice/Davis/Battier. Additionally, the guy in his starting 5 that sets him apart (Melo) is tasked with guarding Hondo, well known for his constant movement. Not only will Melo not be in a position to rebound, but his rather weak defensive/dirty work personality is going to be tested.
Conclusion:
Dock has a team with a LOT of talent on it. He has two true first options and two defensive anchors. Unfortunately both of his defensive anchors can’t leave my man and his off-ball scoring outside of KG leaves a lot to be desired. My superior offensive synergy
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Saturday No 

Post#32 » by Snakebites » Thu Dec 8, 2011 10:19 pm

Steve Nash 05’-06’ (35)/Gus Williams 81’-82’ (13)
Vince Carter 00’-01’ (16)/Dennis Johnson 81’-82’ (32)
Bob Dandridge 78’-79’ (32)/Vince Carter 00’-01’ (16)
Larry Nance 87-88' (26)/Maurice Lucas (22)
Bill Walton 76’-77’ (34)/Zelmo Beaty 70’-71’ (14)

Offense:

Everyone in my rotation is a threat to score in one way or another.

Steve Nash and Bill Walton on the same team? Wow. Walton anchored a fluid motion offensive team that, particularly in the playoffs, ran through him at times. It was considered a great passing offense despite distinctively lacking a conventional point guard. Add to that formula Steve Nash. We drafted this pair of players because we knew how deadly they would be together on offense, and also greatly respected how effectively they make the players around them better. Both anchored offenses that, because of their strong passing games, were able to get things done, in Walton's case despite having top flight offensive talent. Given the diverse and effective pieces we have surrounding these two players, we see no reason our offense can't be efficient and effective regardless of what opposing defenses throw at us. Defending a team with this level of effective passing is made doubly challenging by the fact that every player in our lineup is a threat to score and our spacing is exemplary.

Steve Nash was an 18 ppg scorer in the selected season, but has proven repeatedly that he can also step up and be a major scorer when need be. I consider him to be one of the greatest shooters in our league's history on top of his exemplarary passing skills. He’s performed effectively against elite defenses. By his side on the perimeter is a dynamic pairing at the wings. Dandridge brings with him a deadly midrange shot which helped him score 24 points per game while helping the Bullets reach the finals for the second straight season in the selected year. Beside him, Vince Carter was frighteningly effective in his selected season, averaging 27 points per game and having the ability to score from just about anywhere. Not only does he command respect from the 3 point line as well as anyone in this series (2 makes at just over 40 percent), but he will also use his overall skill and athleticism to put a strain on opposing defenses. With Nash finding them for scoring opportunties, both of these players should benefit greatly as finishers and shooters.

Bill Walton's incredible passing game has already been outlined.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vTGoG53bF4

Not only was his passing the best of any big man in league history (watch the above video for examples), but his rebounding (in terms of rebounding rates he's the best rebounder in this series by a reasonable margin, a 21 TRB% to Duncan's also strong 19) and blocked shots also lead to frequent fast breaks, which were a nightmare to deal with WITHOUT a point guard like Nash leading the break. Look for him to pass from the high post frequently on offense. As the icing on the cake, he also had a solid and efficient scoring game that ranged from the mid range to the high post to even (at times) the low post, and this scoring game complements the likes of Nash, Carter, and our other major scorers admirably.

In addition to our primary scorers, we also have Dennis Johnson and Gus Williams off the bench, who both had mid range and slashing games that bring something different to our offense when they come in. Both are extremely effective playoff performers who will assist us greatly on offense. Larry Nance is also an athletic scorer with a shooting touch who will be invaluable.

Defense:

We’ll keep it simple here. Walton is an elite defensive center in this league by any standard, with his impact being considered comparable to the likes of Hakeem Olajuwon on the defensive end, particularly in the playoffs of the chosen season. His defensive rebounding is unmatched, as is his shot blocking and general defensive presence down low. Even the likes of Kareem Abdul Jabbar (who faced him in the WCF in the chosen season) didn’t prevent his impact from being far reaching and hindering an opponents offensive plan, though Kareem himself performed well, it wasn’t enough as Walton’s impact on the team in general was too great.

As a man defender, even an injury rattled, greatly reduced Bill Walton proved a handful for Hakeem in the NBA finals in the mid 1980s (with Hakeems domination only coming opposite to Robert Parish), and I think this speaks to Walton’s prowess as a man defender in addition to his help defense. Duncan, though effective, will have a difficult time taking over games.

We’ve got great defensive stoppers on each of our opponent’s primary offensive threats: McGrady (Dandridge), Mcadoo (Nance), and Duncan (Walton), and each is well suited to guard their counterpart. Nance’s size and athleticism make him perfect for defending against the slightly shorter but highly mobile McAdoo, while Dandridge has both the reach and quickness to guard McGrady. Our two weak defenders are guarding Pressey and Iggy, two players who as scorers are relatively redundant and unthreatening compared to all of the other starters on each team (and most of the bench players as well). Off the bench, both Dennis Johnson and Maurice Lucas provide additional defensive pressure on whoever in our opponent’s front court or perimeter is particularly problematic.

Overall: Our two best players in this matchup are known, above all else, for elevating teammates around them. Walton lead a team with only one other player even drafted in this game over the likes of Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Julius Erving (along with his star studded supporting cast), and did it by being the ulimate team player. Pairing him with Nash creates a passing and scoring dynamic on our team which should allow us to get the most out of our entire soundly constructed supporting cast.
Our opponent has an excellent collection of talent that I don’t think quite gels together in the way that my team does (McAdoo and McGrady were both particularly accustomed to not playing with another player that scores much like they do- with the ball in their hands outside of the paint), and I also think we have defense in the right spots to contain our opponent. This combined with a fast paced offensive scheme reliant on the accurate passing of our two best players should allow us to win in a though and lengthy series.
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Thurs) 

Post#33 » by Snakebites » Thu Dec 8, 2011 10:37 pm

bastillon wrote:Walton doesn't have a strong backup as Zelmo Beaty is one of the worst bigs in this competition. he's not a defensive anchor and he's undersized which may be an issue against Duncan and Sheed. defensive rebounding is a huge issue without Walton, because Beaty had 20% DRB (that's Channing Frye level) which is pretty bad already...except that he was doing it in the early 70s ABA which makes him even worse. he was pulling 11-12 boards per36 in the 60s so that means he had about 12-13% TRB...and 1/3 of those was on offense (if his performance was consistent with ABA years) which means he was just a terrible defensive rebounder. how will Snakebites play defense without Walton in the game ? that's at least 15 mins of play and in case of foul trouble this is a disaster. Beaty is not gonna compete against Duncan or McAdoo on the boards. least we forget Nash is guarding Pressey down low all game long so there's a great rebounding advantage already (that way Nash can't start the fastbreak because he's not midcourt when the fastbreak starts but near the baseline). Iguodala, TMac and Worthy will get to the offensive glass at times as well, especially with Beaty in the game.


Actually, his defensive rebounding is peak Rasheed Wallace level.

And he won't be competing against Mcadoo or Duncan for boards. I'm really not sure how you imagine that scenario happening. Maybe you're putting more faith into Walton's foul trouble than I would consider to be warranted. He'll be competing against Rasheed Wallace, your backup center. I like Rasheed. He has his uses as a spacer and man defender. But he's not going to be devastating to Beaty here, nor will his help defense decimate offensive schemes, and Beaty will be at worst similarly effective offensively.

And if you think Tim Duncan will do a better job getting Walton into foul trouble than Kareem Abdul Jabbar (who's Laker team was utterly decimated by the Blazers in this peak season in a 4 game sweep with Walton playing ample minutes), then I guess I don't really know what to say.

Even if I'm being as generous as I can be, I certainly don't see it as a strategy that you can hang your hat on to quite the extent that is indicated by the amount of your writeup this strategy pertains to.

While I do realize Pressey is a solid passer, his rather limited offensive arsenal otherwise really makes it hard for me to see how he is going to exploit Nash in any meaningful way in the larger context of your offense.

And honestly, you really seem to be hanging a lot on a "weak defense" off the bench, then go on to describe how your starters would decimate it. Why are you convinced that your starters will be facing my bench? I'm sure your starters might see some minutes while Walton is out there, but it surely won't be the majority of them. And if it is, it creates an advantage for me when Walton IS on the court. Why? Of your bench I see one great scorer: James Worthy. Beyond that, I see Rasheed Wallace (hardly the takeover player) and an inefficient point guard in Mookie Blaylock. Mcadoo may see some time against our bench given how your rotation appears to be structured, but we'll match him minute for minute as much as we can with a highly mobile and able defender in Larry Nance.

I'm simply not seeing where that devastation is coming from. And you'll notice that bast harps on my bench's defense without mentioning its offense. And a quick look at my backups suggests an immediate answer as to why that is.

Id go so far as to argue that my collection of bench players: Gus Williams, Dennis Johnson (a guard duo that won a championship together, both of whom are huge playoff scorers), and Beaty (who faced off against other more well known ABA stars like Mel Daniels and Dan Issel and came out on top) create far more issues on the offensive side of the ball than we will face against your bench. I'm sure that given your rotational framework Mcadoo probably figures to see some minutes off the bench as well, but as we've said, Nance is a fine man defender against him with size and great mobility and athleticism that I see really bothering Mcadoo. Maurice Lucas also performed admirably as the leading scorer on a championship team.

Even if the defense of my team lacks a defensive anchor in the roughly one quarter that Walton will be on the court, I still see an advantage there for my own team in terms of overall bench production. I'll own up to a rebounding deficit, but its definitely being grossly overblown by my opponent given the time frame we're talking about and the other advantages my bench production has over his.

And trying to exploit my bench only creates room for my dynamic team to generate advantages elsewhere.
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Saturday No 

Post#34 » by TMACFORMVP » Thu Dec 8, 2011 11:05 pm

Don't really have the time for a full fledged writeup. Messed up my hand which required stitches, finals week, and a bunch of other stuff going on. Some bullet points..

- We feel we matchup better against poop's team than they do against us. Jordan has no space to operate, because of poor spacing (no three point shooter in the starting lieup). Then consider we have Dumars, and Wise to cover Jordan, with Shaq in the paint, we feel confident, with the lack of spacing, and overall help defense that we can at least make sure Jordan doesn't beat us singlehandedly. He's even said Richmond was a good defender on him, Phil Jackson even going as far as saying he's "as good as Michael defensively." Obviously that's not the case, but we could be much worse off than Dumars and Richmond, both with proven competitive track records against MJ.

- Defensively, poop has a terrific team, but we have more spacing which should allow us to be more effective offensively (Richmond, Penny, Dumars, Lucas all definite better floor spacers). Shaq shouldn't have much problems w/Dwight (this is '00 Shaq, he wouldn't have problems with anyone really). Penny was awesome at his peak, Robertson should do as good a job as any, but keep in mind, during his prime Penny was often one to make Jordan/Pippen look helpless at times (watch G1 of the ECF). Dude was a star, 60% TS, a monster post-season performer, could beat you from anywhere on the floor, terrific on and off the ball. Dumars and Wise with their two way play, and Lucas with his rebounding and range all fit flawlessly -- in short, there are no real weaknesses or anyone that could be exploited (to the same extent as Robertson, Jones, IMO).

--> So offensively, I think we can still execute our game plan, with Shaq/Penny dominating, and the supporting cast (Dumars, Wise, Lucas, Buck, Richmond) filling into their roles perfectly. There's spacing, there's rebounding, play-making, etc. And defensively, we're helped, there's a CONSIDERABLE lack of spacing, along with terrific defenders on his two main options. If Gasol were to go off, we could simply switch Buck into the game, put in Richmond at the 3, and not lose any of the spacing, but also have a defense that could cover everyone on the floor.

That's another point I guess, the versatility of our team to matchup offensively and defensively is superior. poop, as always you've built a terrific team, and may the best team win.
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Saturday No 

Post#35 » by poopdamoop » Fri Dec 9, 2011 3:20 am

Cassell (28) / Robertson (20)
Jordan (40) / Robertson (8)
Jones (16) / Ellis (32)
Gasol (34) / Jones (14)
Howard (36) / Sampson (12)

VS

PG - Penny (28) - Lever (20)
SG - Dumars (30) - Richmond (18)
SF - Wise (35) - Penny (8) - Richmond (5)
PF - Lucas (28) - Williams (20)
Cc - O'neal (38) - Daniels (10)

Best of luck to TMAC, he's built a great team but I like my chances here.

I'm starting Cassell so that there's a shooter in the starting lineup (40% in my chosen season) but even without him I think concerns about my spacing are overblown. Gasol is an excellent midrange shooter, and Jones is exceptional at moving without the ball and will be spending a lot of time at PF as well. Dale Ellis, my 6th man, is one of the greatest shooters of all time and will be getting plenty of open looks from Jordan's penetration.

We're gonna cross match defensively, with Cassell on Dumars, Jordan on Wise, and Jones guarding Penny. Now Penny is a great player, but his performance against Jordan and Pippen is WAY overblown. For reference:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =hardaan01

He had one good game against them (38 pts on 15/21 shooting), but other than that he was pretty mediocre. In 10 playoff games against the Bulls, he shot over 50% twice, and scored over 20 points a grand total of 3 times. Bobby Jones and Alvin Robertson are two of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time, and both have completely different styles (Robertson with speed and quick hands, Jones with strength and fundamental positioning), so those two guys rotating against him should give him fits. Dumars is a 4th option on this team, so I'm not too worried about what he does against Cassell, since he won't get too many touches. Wise is a great player, but not much of a shooter, so I can have MJ double off him to harass Shaq in the post. Gasol vs Lucas should be interesting, but I like Gasol's efficiency and versatility over Lucas' range and rebounding. Lucas was known for being extremely bad defensively, and played in an era of highly inflated stats, while Gasol really has no weaknesses.

Shaq is obviously the key here. Howard won't stop him, but the 3-time DPOY will do as good a job as any against him. Howard still gives up size and strength though, so I'll have Jordan and Robertson, when they're in the game, double down to try and harass O'neal. Both MJ and Alvin are two of the greatest ball-thiefs in the history of the game, so I'm sure they'll cause Shaq trouble. Penny and Wise aren't great outside shooters, so I don't mind taking my chances with them firing away from the outside if it slows Shaq down. We won't double every time, but throwing different looks at Shaq will hopefully catch him off-guard.

Offensively, I think we've got the clear advantage. Dumars may be considered a great defender, but a look at his head to head matchups with MJ shows how overmatched he was:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... =dumarjo01

In the '91 playoffs (the year I'm using for Jordan), he scored 30 a game on 53.5% shooting, while Dumars put up 12 on 37% from the field. This was against a Pistons team that could focus a lot of their attention on Jordan, with other guys like Rodman to throw at him. On a team like this, where he's surrounded by elite talent? Dumars has no hope of slowing him down, much less stopping him.

We'll be trying our best to get Shaq in foul trouble, since without him TMAC's team will fall apart. We'll put him in pick and roll situations with Jordan, and see if MJ's star power will get him some calls going to the basket. Gasol will also be able to have his way with Lucas on the block, and Howard will get plenty of chances when Shaq has to help off him. Cassell and Ellis are my long range shooters, and Robertson can act as a secondary ball-handler and creator for the few minutes Jordan sits.

Overall, TMAC's team is extremely well built, but we hold the edge both offensively and defensively. Shaq is great, but we've got the GOAT, and a well rounded team with no real weaknesses. TMAC's team suffers from interior defense issues, since having a poor defender like Lucas next to O'neal will prove problematic. His perimeter players, while talented, are up against possibly the best perimeter defenders in this league in Robertson, Jordan, and Jones. Taking all that into account, I see my team prevailing in 6 games.
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Saturday No 

Post#36 » by bastillon » Fri Dec 9, 2011 1:06 pm

-Zelmo Beaty posted about 15% DRB in the NBA if his orb/drb performance was consistent with ABA play. Rasheed Wallace posted 20-21% next to Ben Wallace in 04 and 05. as a matter of fact, Zelmo Beaty was a well below average NBA center in his days. he made 2 all-star teams when all the great centers went to the east (Russ, Wilt, Reed, Bellamy, Luke Jackson, Wes Unseld). that's why he only made it when these players were gone and he (66, 68) then split all-star teams with Darrall Imhoff (67). he shouldn't be in this competition in the first place. he's undersized poor defender who provides no shotblocking or defensive rebounding. that's who I'm dealing with for 15 mins of the game. he's not playing against Sheed either as he's my PF. he's playing against Duncan or McAdoo who will eat Beaty alive.

-to give you an idea of how bad your interior defense and rebounding will be after Walton's gone on the bench, let's compare our teams by DRB%: Beaty (15%), Nance (18%), Lucas (22%) vs Duncan (26%), McAdoo (24-25%) and Sheed (20-21%). my swingmen (Iguodala and TMac 15% each) are about as good as your backup center. none of your guys can provide shotblocking necessary to stop me from scoring either.

-77 Walton during his championship run was constantly in foul trouble (4.2 fpg) and opposing centers were putting up good numbers against him. vs A-Train he fouled out in 1 game and was with 5 fouls in 2 other (best of 3, mind you). vs Kareem he wasn't in foul trouble often because Kareem didn't draw foul particularly well (merely .28 FTA/FGA rate) but he let Kareem go for 35 ppg 60% FG and avg a lot of assists. he couldn't defend against Kareem to save his life. he's not stopping peak Tim Duncan either (25-27 ppg in the playoffs) and will have trouble staying without fouls as Duncan is much more likely to draw fouls than Kareem (.45 FTA/FGA rate) as tsherkin always said in his research about that. Walton was a great player but his foul trouble - again, 4.2 fpg in 77 run - was not unlikely. that is, unless you're sending double teams - as you should've, but you're completely dismissing double teaming anyone in your writeup and rebuttal. your choice. it's also complete and utter nonsense that Walton contained Olajuwon in '86 finals. as a matter of fact, Celtics GAMEPLAN was to TRIPLE TEAM Hakeem bc he was doing so much damage to their interior. even with that, Dream still put up 27 ppg on 51% TS in those finals. whenever he was left man-to-man he destroyed every guy Celtics sent against him.

-Pressey vs Nash is something you dismissed as "Pressey's not an offensive force". yeah, he's not when he's guarded by players his size. he's becoming one major force when he's posting up a dude who's head smaller and 40 pounds lighter. Pressey was a guy who succesfully contained Bird's post scoring and someone who would guard PFs at times. his strength made it unthinkable to leave him against a PG man-to-man in the low post. it's like with Corliss Williamson. he wasn't an offensive force but every coach in the NBA sent PFs to guard him because SFs were destroyed in the post. Nash can't guard Pressey because he's not capable of doing that physically. that matchup is taking Nash out of his comfort zone and not only making him work on defense but also on the glass as Pressey will stay down low all game long. I'm hoping that's going to wear down Nash on offense and give me a good option offensively. foul trouble is likely if Nash is left man-to-man in the low post vs Pressey.

-you talk about how poor my bench is offensively, but you didn't really think it through. I'm using 8-man rotation so the worst possible offensive lineup on my team is: Blaylock-Iguodala-Worthy-Sheed-Duncan. you're not stopping that line up with Zelmo Beaty-anchored "defense". TMac would replace Iggy at times and Doo could play in place of Duncan. either way, 2-3 great offensive scorers + floor spacers. everyone is an adequate passer at the very least.

-you talk about how your defenders are suited to defend my stars, but there are a lot of inconsistencies in that whole theory. first of all, Dandridge made 1 all-defensive team in his career and suddenly he's stopping peak TMac. right. as if TMac never faced superior defensive players and embarassed them despite no supporting cast to speak of. that TMac is considered by most at peak Kobe level offensively. Walton was already talked about earlier. not a great man defender, his defense was embarassed by Kareem in 77 WCF (35 ppg, 60% FG). McAdoo put up 31-35 ppg in his days so Larry Nance may be trying to contain him, but it's not like teams didn't throw everything they got at him. he still scored 30+. it's like Marion vs Nowitzki, he may be guarding him well, but you can't stop McAdoo from scoring that easily. also, you must change your rotation entirely if you want Nance guarding McAdoo because he's my starting PF (vs Lucas, envisioning a physical banger chasing around screens, right) and backup C (vs Beaty...). most importantly, my top guys won't be asked to produce as much as they did on their own teams, they'll be asked to score about 20-25 pts each which is sigifnicantly lower than what they did in reality.

-if you look at my top scorers, you'll notice their playoff scoring was much greater than of your players. TMac put up 31-32 ppg on 56% TS, Duncan put up 25-27 ppg on 56% TS, Worthy put up 24-25 ppg on 60% TS, McAdoo put up 32-37 ppg on 52% TS. now these guys are gonna lower their volumes, how likely it is that you're going to affect their efficiency as well ? compared to your top players offensively they're a lot better as 4 of your starers aren't particularly efficient playoff scorers (Carter 27 ppg, 52% TS; Dandridge 21-23 ppg 51% TS, Walton 18 ppg 51% TS, Lucas 21 ppg and 56% TS in 77 but awful in every other run, career 49% ABA, 52% NBA). that might be an issue considering elite defenders on my team. Nash will make them better but he's being guarded by Pressey (2 all-defensive 1st teams, top3 DPOY finish) and is working hard on defense and on the boards against way stronger Pressey.

-you said my top scorers don't gel well with each other because they didn't play with great scorers in these days, but Duncan, Worthy, TMac and McAdoo all played off-ball most of the time so I can't see how would that affect them in a bad way ? if anything that should make things easier for them, because they'll be facing lesser defensive coverage.

-lastly, let me just say I'm not relying on the weakness of your bench. I'm feeling good about your starting lineup as well. I have a fluid offense with everyone posing a threat and I'm exposing your biggest defensive weakness - Nash- in a way you can't ignore - in the paint (Pressey demanded double teams with DJ guarding him and you're seriously going to leave Nash mano a mano ?). I'm feeling worse about my defense because I can't stop Steve Nash entirely but I'm hoping fighting on defense will wear him down and affect his offensive impact. remember McAdoo/Sheed are playing away from the hoop so there's a lot of space inside and Pressey will play there all game long, which includes fighting for offensive rebounds and so on. I'm not particularly scared by Carter or Dandridge putting up big numbers. Carter in his playoff career was constantly not playing up to the expectations (career playoff 51%) and he'll be playing against Iguodala who's perfectly suited to guard him. Dandridge is nice, but he's gonna lose his matchup vs McGrady big time overall as he's just a lesser player. Duncan, McAdoo and Sheed provide great shotblocking and defensive rebounding. but the real difference is clearly on the bench. for 15 mins you'll be playing without shotblocking and defensive rebounding, exposing your painted area totally. but my starting lineup is no slouch either.
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Saturday No 

Post#37 » by Warriorfan » Fri Dec 9, 2011 5:35 pm

Warriorfan

Overview
Most GM'S will say their players can play together but the key players in my starting unit won a Championship together. Mc Hale Parrish Archibald were teammates that when added to bird went from worst record to best record 3 times and a 1981title for the Celtics. Magic will later fill in for Bird. Cunningham the Grant Hill of his era who was top 10 in Scoring, Rebounding and Assts. Gervin Led the League at 34 per on 54% rounds out the roster.

On this team every player is in the HOF. Every player except Dantley and Johnson were voted onto 50yr Anniversary ALL TIME team by a panel of HOF players, coaches and media. To give an idea of the level to make the team players like Reggie Miller, Nique , Grant Hill , Clyde Drexler, Joe Dumars, Zo, Artis Gilmore were left off.

PF Mc Hale 30 Hayes 18
SF Cunningham 28 De Bouchers 20
C Hayes 28 Parrish 30
G Gervin 30 Dantley 18
PG Archibald 28 Bing 20

VS

BlackIce

Williams (38)/Hardaway (10)
Artest (28)/Hinrich (20)
Wilkins (38)/Artest (10)
Barkley (40)/Roundfield (8)
Russell (40)/Eaton (8)



My Squad

Best Yrs
Tiny Archibald (Thik Stockton AI Combo) 72-73 Led in Scoring and NBA asst record in just 3rd yr
ONLY man in NBA History to do so.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... iti01.html

Elvin Hayes(Think KG wo passing) 73/74 Only other player to grab RB title in Wilt/Russell era 3RD all time scorer and RB when retired. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sel01.html

David Bing(think D Wade) 67/68 Led NBA Scoring 4th Asst. Current mayor of Det.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... gda01.html

Billy Cunningham (think G Hill)71-72 a League Leader Pts. Asst, RB, Top 50 Player, HOF Coach ,
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ibi01.html

Adrian Dantley 83/84 Led in Scoring, PER , top 11 Shooting Pct. only non C top 20 shooting pct
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lad01.html

David De Boucherre (Think Ben Wallace who scores 16 per) 67/68 2nd team all NBA best offensive yr.
his last 6 yrs in league named all def no teams 1st 6 yrs. why russell only 1. youngest HC ever At 24.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sda01.html

George Gervin 4 time scoring champ only wilt, jordan more. all time leader G for blocks
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ige01.html

Kevin Mc Hale 86-87 first player to shoot over 60% in a season , one yr hit 40% of 3'S
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lke01.html

Neil Johnson (think Kevin Love) 1954/55 Led League in RB and Pts. jump shooting C. #8 all time PER 25 http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sne01.html

Robert Parrish 81-82 high post scorer ran the court
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sro01.html



Offense
My pgs Bing and especially Tiny Archibald are exeptionally fast combined with the atheltic big men we have will run at every opportunity for easy baskets and early offense.

Archibald the Iverson of his era and Bing the Wade of the era should be able to break down the D of Deron Williams who has never been all league and Hinrich who has never been an all star.

Screen and Roll, and Pick and Pop with athletic bigs Hayes, Parrish, Mc Hale with good mid range games will pull out Russell who in the modern era won't be able to camp in the lane.

We should also be able to get many second chance baskets because above big men plus SF Cunningham and BG De Bucherre avg 11 boards a game. Hayes 18 Parrish 11 and Mc Hale 10 should hold their own with Barkley and Bill.

For the yrs chosen Archibald 34 , Bing 27, Dantley 32, Gervin 34, Johnson 25, are top scorers in the league. Cunningham 24 Hayes 27, Mc hale 26 are top 5. Parrish 19.9, De Boucherre 17.9 are the only players under 20.

As for shooting Mc Hale is comming off as first man for back to back 60% shooting. Gervin and Dantley though elite scorers are effective at over 54% shooting. All three are also avg 10 trips to line per game.
Along with Bing and Archibald we expect our opponents weak bench to be exposed due to foul trouble.

For playmaking Archibald sets NBA season record for assists 11.48, Bing 6 and Cunningham 6.4 as pt forward are top 10 in assists,






Defense
The team has great depth so can play lots of man to man with lots of ball pressure by the guards.
Both Deron and Hardaway have high turnover rates as guards. Artest and Dominique when faced against HOF fame defenders will also have difficulty.

PF Mc Hale, G/F De Buscherre are able to guard multiple positions and are 6 times all D. Elvin Hayes is a 3 time member of the all D Squad. Mc hale and Parrish block over 2.5 shots a game and Hayes 3 so are excellent athletic weakside defenders to cover for the pressure put on by the guards.

Roundtree, Hinrich, Artest with career avg of around 12 pts a game and Eaton a below avg scorer are easy players to double off. Hardaway,Russell,D Williams are good scorers with career avgs under 18.Leaving Barkley who will be checked by De Boucherre who and volume scorer D Wilkins who will against Cunningham and Gervin.


Artest 42% is a poor shooter, Hinrich 42% Nique 46%. in the modern era , Deron Williams has been on a 3 yrs slide in shooting. This yr 38% with NJ without other stars. http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ide01.html, Nique and Artest are known to freeze out teammates.

Team comparisons.
My Team 9 players on All time top 50 anniversary team named by a panel of HOF players and coaches.
Remainning two are enshrined in the HOF.

My opponent. 3 HOF Barkley, Russell, Wilkins. Wilkins was not voted on the Anniversary Team. Eaton, Hardaway, and Roundfield are retired but have not been elected into HOF. Deron Williams 2 time all star in 6 years of play but declining 15pts 36% shooting for NJ, and Artest 1 time all star 3 time All Defense if their careers ended today would not be enshrined. Hinrich one time 2nd team all D no All Star Games as well.

Conclusion.
Team chemistry through players Archibald, Mc Hale and Parrish playing together for Championship runs opposed to the volatility of players such as Artest, Barkley and Roundtree should prevail.

Scoring
I have 3 30 pt scorers Archibald, Gervin Dantley, 5 24 pt plus scorers
De Boucherre17 and Parrish.19.

As for shooting Barkley is the only player and no O Eaton are the only players who shoot over 50%.
I have Mc Hale 60%, Gervin 54%, Dantley 56% at a high scoring rate.

One note for players from the 50's and 60's 40% is avg because of no 3 second rule and physical play.
Neil Johnson led the league at 46%.

Plus no suspect free throw shooters like Russell and Roundtree Eaton so intentional fouling is an advantage if the game should be close.

Archibald, Dantley, Gervin, Mc Hale are league leading free throw shooters.


opposed to
Barkley and Nique are the only to avg over 20 for their career. Eaton is below 10. Artest only 14. Roundfield 14 Hinrich.

Rebounding
Cunningham, De Boucherre, Johnson, have career avg above 10.
Hayes and Parrish are in the top 10 all time in RB.

Opposed to only Barkley and Russell who is #10 all time.

Playmaking
Deron and Hardaway have higher turnover rates than Bing and Archibald.
The passing Barkley and Bill will be affected by top defenders De Boucherre and Long Limbed Mc Hale who are more athletic and much taller then their opponents. Cunningham who will be covered by suspect D Dominque will also be given pt forward duties because Bing and Archibald are #1 in scoring options.

Defense
No avg defenders like Barkley and Dominique, Hardaway who played on Nelson no D Warriors

The worst defender on my team is Dantley who started for the Bad Boy Pistons after Utah.
Archibald is small but super fast and pg post play is not a major threat from Hardaway and Williams.

More shotblockers in Mc Hale, Parrish Hayes vs Russell who has to adjust to modern game and offensive liability Eaton. Plus Gervin is career leading shotblocker for guards.
De Bucherre and Mc Hale are 6 time all D opposed to Artest and Roundtree 3 time members. Bill Russell is a great defender but so is Hayes.
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Saturday No 

Post#38 » by TMACFORMVP » Fri Dec 9, 2011 10:07 pm

Rebuttal, have some time this afternoon, and wasn't able to do a legit writeup in this and the last game, nor a rebuttal.

Penny Hardaway
I still think Penny at his peak should still get the best of Jones. I don't think people realize how good Penny was in his prime, b/c he didn't have the sexy volume, or huge assists #'s. He was a monster playoff performer, however, and very efficient. He was terrific in the post, had a good jumper, and moved beautifully off the ball. The reason he's so often compared to Magic, was not b/c they were all that similar as players, but how well they used their size at the PG position, the mismatches they created and how that dictated the offense. When Shaq missed the first 22 games of the '96 season, the Magic went 17-5 and Penny in those games did 26/5/7 on 63% TS (got to the line 11 times); he finished Top 3 in MVP Voting, and was first team All-NBA. They were still +2.5 in the lineup without Shaq, for references sake (thanks ElGee, again), in '97, w/ Penny in the lineup, they were +2.5 (Shaq had left for LA by this time), but w/out him, -7.5! That sort of offensive impact is ridiculous.

In '97, against the best ranked Heat defense, Penny poured in 31 PPG on 58% TS, in the final two games of that series, he did 42/8/3 on 64% TS. Check out that Magic team too, Penny was literally playing by himself and almost upset the Heat.

And as for the link poop posted, I'd like to point out a few things
a.) three of those games include Penny's stint with the Suns in 2002.
b.) Even including those games, Penny is still seen doing 20 PPG on 46/44/87 (with 1.8 makes from distance). That's pretty darn good, IMO. If you subtract those three games, Penny does 24.5 PPG on 60% TS against a prime Jordan.

Then consider a 26 PPG post-season in '96 as well, then I definitely don't think Penny's performances against those Bulls teams were overblown.

Sam Casell
I don't think the insertion of Cassell does much to change our gameplan. Sure, we will stay tighter on him than we would with Robertson in the game, but it's worth noting
a.) Cassell didn't even make ONE three pointer per game in the chosen season.
b.) For the most part of his career, he's never been deadly from three percentage wise either.

Most importantly, the insertion of Cassell, gives our offense more flexibility. Dumars was another very good playoff performer, that stepped up his game in the Finals. He should be able to exploit Cassell defensively, similar with Richmond, whose role on this team shouldn't be ignored. I actually don't know if Cassell improves the spacing enough that it doesn't give us greater flexibility.

Defensively, with Dumars as a man defender, Wise being able to help off Jones, Shaq in the paint, and Penny's length when Robertson is in the game is as sound a defensive tactic to somewhat limit Jordan from going off. Combine that with there being limited space (Gasol's all round game becomes negated if he becomes a primary mid-range shooter), Dwight being a strict post player that's a terrible passer (in the playoffs last season, he had 3 assists, and 33 turnovers, that's staggering), along with Jones, Robertson, and even Cassell to an extent, it makes it even harder for Jordan to do his thing. Granted, Jordan will still go off, our mere point is it could be much worse.

And that's similar w/ Shaq and Penny being able to do their thing regardless of the defense being thrown at them, except our team has more flexibility and spacing on the floor, Dumars, Richmond, Lucas all provide terrific spacing. We can even afford to play Richmond at the 3 in spot minutes, and roll with Buck at the 4. With Buck on Gasol, Shaq on Dwight, Dumars w/ help on Jordan, Richmond somewhat hidden on Jones, and Penny on Cassell, we have a lot of flexibility defensively and offensively to go w/our team. When Ellis is in the game, Wise's two way game is served to purpose, as well.
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Saturday No 

Post#39 » by poopdamoop » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:48 pm

The link I posted for Penny shows that his playoff performance was overblown, I wasn't really pointing out regular season games where stakes are much lower. He'll get points, but Jones, Jordan and Robertson will do a number on him for sure.

And I fail to see how my spacing is such an issue. Cassell, regardless of volume, is a 40% shooter who can't be left alone, and Jones will spending half the game at PF anyway. Meanwhile, Ellis (a 48% 3pt shooter) will be playing huge minutes off the bench, most of them with Jordan. I'm going to stagger my rotation so that when Jordan is on the court, he always has at least one shooter with him at all times.

And it's not like MJ needs an insane amount of spacing to get his points. Most of his offense comes from the mid-range area anyway, so he just needs time to get a couple dribbles in and get to his spots. He's not like LeBron, who needs to clear out and drive to the basket constantly, Jordan is much more versatile than that. MJ's Chicago teams were pretty consistently average to below average 3pt shooting teams relative to the rest of the league, but that didn't stop them from being some of the best teams ever.
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Re: ATL -1 Player League Playoffs (1st Round due Thurs) 

Post#40 » by Warriorfan » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:48 pm

BlackIce wrote:vs. Warriorfan

Some Rebuttal

Williams (38)/Hardaway (10)
Artest (28)/Hinrich (20)
Wilkins (38)/Artest (10)
Barkley (40)/Roundfield (8)
Russell (40)/Eaton (8)

Heavy minutes for the starters because the bench is not too good. Roundfield and Eaton are limited. Hinrich is one of the weaker guards in the game. Not even an all star.

No Magic? It's gonna take magic for him to pull this out. Russell/Barkley is light years better then Parish/Mchale. Tiny/Gervin/Cunningham can't space the floor and Mchale won't have room to operate in the post. I really don't have a lot to say about this matchup tbh, I'll add more later.

It Russell Barkley vs Parrish,McHale,Elvin Hayes De Boucherre all voted top 50 all time.
There was no 3pt shot until end of Gervins career in ABA he hit around 33%, In NBA 30% but hits 54% everywhere else. Mc Hale hits 40% from 3 60% everywhere else. Dantley hits 57% of hits shots from everywhere. Cunningham hit 33% in the ABA.

Then the bigger mismatch is Bing and Archibald vs Williams Hardaway. Bing and Archibald are top 50 all time. Williams is a poor shooter 46% career 36% in NJ Artest is career 42%

One thing to pt out play is very different in the 50's and 60's. When Neil Johnson hits 45% when he leads the league in scoring this yr he is one of the league leaders because big men can just stay all day in the lane on D and play is much more physical.

-Defense: Zone defense, Warriorfan doesn't have the shooters to punish me, and with Russel in the middle and a DPY on the perimeter our defense is one of the best in this league. Barkley will have plenty of help containing Mchale. Williams will take out Tiny, Artest will suffocate Gervin and Nique will play Cunningham straight up.

On my team there are no people to double off since everyone is good scorer. My lowest scorer De Boucherre 17.9 would be the 4th leading scorer on his team. Eaton scores single digits. Careerwise Hinrich, Artest Roundfield are around 12pts per game. Hardaway and Russell around 17,


-Offense: Run the team through Russel and his elite passing. Russel can find shooters, kick it out on the outlet pass. Barkley will be our main scoring option obviously. He'll get his and then some on the good but not great defender he is facing in Mchale. Nique has all the freedom in the world to do his thing, and Artest will work the post and sit on the 3 point line when appropriate.

Given freedom Nique and Artest who are not good shooters can shoot the team out of the game stifling the offense and keeping from the only effective shooter Barkley. Mc Hale 6 time, De boucherre 6 time and Hayes are all league defenders who can help contain the only efficient scorer. The versatile De Boucherre on the PF on last knicks championship team minimized for that run Unseld, Kareem and Wilt in sucession to get the ring since Willis Reed was hobbled.

Russell as the pt of the offense is a liability due to him being a poor free throw shooter around 50%, We can emplore the hack a bill to get two for one on possessions.

Conclusion: Weak spacing and little scoring outside of Gervin and Mchale. BIG advantage on the frontline, and a more balanced team on both ends.


My opponnent doesn't know history. The shooters and scoring is on my team. Only Barkley and non scorer Eaton are above 50% shooters. Mc Hale is at 60%, Gervin 54%, Dantley 56% Parrish 54% at high scoring rates. I have more 30 pt scorers Archibald, Dantley, Gervin than he has 20 pt scorers Barkley Nique. Plus 6 more players who average more than 25pts this season. On the frontline I have 5 HOF top 50 who can play in the frontcourt to his two. In Cunningham 10,De Boucherre11, Mc Hale 10this yr., Parrish 10, Hayes 17 Johnson 11 I should win the battle of the boards. Artest at 5, Roundfield at 6, Nique at 7 offer much less help.

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