Jan Vesely

[Raptor_Claw]

not convinced by your quote, it sounds as much as if the media thought
maybe he was a SF, the kind of mistake the media makes all the time.

He played SF during his entire career in Europe. That is why he was listed as a SF. He was never asked to play PF in Europe, because he was not strong enough to guard any PFs. The fact that he could not shoot was simply tolerated by his team, as he was used as a hustle and energy, role playing defender.

He was listed at SF, because that was the position he played at his whole career.

[Raptor_Claw]

Vesely was SF, end of story. Although I believe NBA teams were looking at him as a future PF, at very least, as a AK47 type PF-SF combo.

Jan was too raw to play PF in Europe, skill wise and physically. And European players are less physical, for example Kleiza was a great PF in Europe, but hes just a tweener in the NBA. So when you take a guy, who was too weak to play PF in Europe, and play him PF in the NBA, bad things happens.

Vesely is a pure project, so i did not expected much from him. He is 6'11, athletic, great material, you take it and then work on it.
But there are few things that surprised and disappointed me.
First, the fact Wizards uses him as a big right away, even as a C at times, which sounds crazy to me.
And second, which is probably explains the previous thing, is his jumper. Ok, he was never a good shooter, but he was able to hit an occasional 3 point shot. He was somehow a threat, now it looks like he cant shoot at all.

The reason Kleiza played power forward in Europe was because of his shooting ability. He's best suited to be a spread the floor power forward on offense. He could stand at the 3 point line all game long in Olympiacos and let the guards create for him and it worked great, with him just shooting open jumpers mostly.

On defense, he was absolutely atrocious. He could not guard anyone. Olympiacos simply used Kleiza for what he was. A spread the floor power forward on offense, that is a tweener on defense, that can't guard either the three or the four.

Kleiza isn't used properly in the NBA on offense.

[closg00]

not convinced by your quote, it sounds as much as if the media thought
maybe he was a SF, the kind of mistake the media makes all the time.

He played SF during his entire career in Europe. That is why he was listed as a SF. He was never asked to play PF in Europe, because he was not strong enough to guard any PFs. The fact that he could not shoot was simply tolerated by his team, as he was used as a hustle and energy, role playing defender.

He was listed at SF, because that was the position he played at his whole career.

Sounds about right, not the type of player who needs to be grabbed as a 6th pick.

[Raptor_Claw]

not convinced by your quote, it sounds as much as if the media thought
maybe he was a SF, the kind of mistake the media makes all the time.

He played SF during his entire career in Europe. That is why he was listed as a SF. He was never asked to play PF in Europe, because he was not strong enough to guard any PFs. The fact that he could not shoot was simply tolerated by his team, as he was used as a hustle and energy, role playing defender.

He was listed at SF, because that was the position he played at his whole career.

Sounds about right, not the type of player who needs to be grabbed as a 6th pick.

Vesely was not drafted for how good he was. He was drafted for his "upside" and "potential". That is what NBA teams do. They draft NCAA and European players based on some perceived upside or potential. They do not draft them based on how good they are.

In the case of European players, they absolutely do not draft based on how good the player is. They will draft a guy that no one in Europe ever even heard of, and will not draft a guy in Europe that is already a bonafide star at a young age.

Vesely is the classic NBA European high draft pick. Which is taking a guy that they determine has a big upside, and drafting him totally based on that alone. Without really any consideration for his current level as a player.

It works good in a case like Dirk, or bad in a case like Skitishvilli.

Vesely was a typical and standard NBA draft pick at #6 considering this. Whether he was in NCAA or Europe, he would have been taken very high simply for being 7 feet and very athletic. It's the same exact thing with NCAA players. The NBA will draft a 7 footer in the lotto that can barely even hold a basketball, simply due to a perceived notion of upside.

The list of busts of 7 foot lotto picks from NCAA that were drafted solely for "upside" goes on and on. I don't see anything unusual at all about Vesely being taken #6 in the draft. That is standard NBA drafting procedure for pretty much all NBA teams.

[Knighthonor]

What was good about him in the euro league? He had lot of fans. He couldn't be that bad to have fans like that right?

What's the difference between the two leagues? If he was good in euro, why can't he be good here?

[Dat2U]

not convinced by your quote, it sounds as much as if the media thought
maybe he was a SF, the kind of mistake the media makes all the time.

He played SF during his entire career in Europe. That is why he was listed as a SF. He was never asked to play PF in Europe, because he was not strong enough to guard any PFs. The fact that he could not shoot was simply tolerated by his team, as he was used as a hustle and energy, role playing defender.

He was listed at SF, because that was the position he played at his whole career.

Yep. and Ruz & closq00 are 100% right. We are in "saving this draft pick" mode. It's amazing the Ernie Grunfeld and his band of minions couldn't see what you or any number of scouts and Wizards fans could see. Vesely at #6 was a bust waiting to happen. Drafting an unskilled 21 yr old project was just insane. At that age your closer to finished than unfinished. And he was no better than a energy guy and 5th option for a European team. What can he be expected to do against higher competition?

He may become useful in time. In the same way a 7th or 8th man in a team's rotation is useful, but I think it's fair to expect more from the 6th pick in the draft.

[Ed Wood]

He wasn't very good, frankly. He was athletic and ran around and you could put together an awfully exciting highlight reel based on his dunks but he wasn't particularly remarkable as a volume scorer, didn't rebound all that well for his size and basically was the same player he's been this year against a lower level of competition.

And while you're always going to draft a player based to some extent on what you expect him to do in the future it's wildly inaccurate to say that draft picks aren't at all connected to past accomplishments and that any player, domestic or otherwise, should be viewed without the context of that player's concrete accomplishments.

Most players who are able to play well at an NBA level were exceptional players previously, and European players aren't an exception. It's not an enormous shock that Pau Gasol is an excellent player in the NBA after having been extremely effective in the ACB league whereas Vesely has been unremarkable after the same in the Adriatic League. If ignoring that past mediocrity is indeed a standard NBA approach it's an oddly stupid way for such expensive investments to be made.

[UcanUwill]

Partizan simply has best fans in club basketball. Jan seemed charismatic, athletic hustle guy, played for crowed and his club was winning, so no one was bitter.

He never was anything special. Hypothetically if my biggest Euro rival team signs Vesely, I would not be scared, mad or anything. Hes a role player, and not one of those who can sink your team when hot, he just gets few transition dunks, plays D and thats about it.

OT. Kleiza was solid, because he is versatile. And he was never a pilon on d, even currently, Toronto's Casey uses him on bigger guys, and he is doing fine.

[Raptor_Claw]

He wasn't very good, frankly. He was athletic and ran around and you could put together an awfully exciting highlight reel based on his dunks but he wasn't particularly remarkable as a volume scorer, didn't rebound all that well for his size and basically was the same player he's been this year against a lower level of competition.

And while you're always going to draft a player based to some extent on what you expect him to do in the future it's wildly inaccurate to say that draft picks aren't at all connected to past accomplishments and that any player, domestic or otherwise, should be viewed without the context of that player's concrete accomplishments.

Most players who are able to play well at an NBA level were exceptional players previously, and European players aren't an exception. It's not an enormous shock that Pau Gasol is an excellent player in the NBA after having been extremely effective in the ACB league whereas Vesely has been unremarkable after the same in the Adriatic League. If ignoring that past mediocrity is indeed a standard NBA approach it's an oddly stupid way for such expensive investments to be made.

The NBA does not draft European players based on how good they are. They draft them based on a perceived potential, which Vesely ranks very high on. The NBA is most often drafting guys from Europe that most people in Europe never even heard of.

And many, many times the best European players of their ages are never drafted. Pau Gasol is a rare type of a draft case for a European player. The NBA will literally draft guys from Europe that are playing in a high school team or barely even get any playing time in a second division league.

On the other hand, they will completely ignore and not draft guys that are top rated players at national team competitions, or guys that are already important players in good clubs.

The NBA is definitely not drafting European players based on accomplishments or their current level or status at the time of the draft. They are drafting them almost solely based on what they perceive as a potential.

I am not saying I agree with this. I think it's a really, really stupid thing. But that is absolutely how the NBA chooses European players for the draft. The NBA is still following that same model of choosing European players, in how they chose Darko for the #2 pick for example.

[jivelikenice]

Jan gets a lot of heat here but he's made remarkable strides considering how bad he was earlier this season. He's being judged based on being the 6th pick. If you take that out of the equation he has some interesting tools and is a remarkable athlete at his size. My complaint is that he's a little too unselfish at times and needs to be more aggressive when he does get the ball in scoring position.

[UcanUwill]

Raptor_Claw, you a such a hypocrite, why you return to NBA forums all the time? Just stop, everyones sees you through. You are not believe in what you saying, you just promote European basketball and thats your only purpose. Thats just pathetic.

And NBA teams tries to draft best possible players all the time. If you actually believe what you just said, you have terrible basketball perception. There is one thing called talent evaluation. just because some young Euros are less successful in Europe, it does not mean they are bad NBA prospects. Sofo is one of the most dominant players in Europe, but if you have at least mediocre bb IQ, you can tell he would be a terrible NBA player, and thats just one example.
Same thing with college basketball. being most successful college player does not guarantees you first pick or anything like that. Their career outside NBA does not matter.

[verbal8]

Jan gets a lot of heat here but he's made remarkable strides considering how bad he was earlier this season. He's being judged based on being the 6th pick. If you take that out of the equation he has some interesting tools and is a remarkable athlete at his size. My complaint is that he's a little too unselfish at times and needs to be more aggressive when he does get the ball in scoring position.

I think Vesely may be the "Joe Smith" of the 6th pick. The problem was not that Joe Smith was a bad basketball player, but he just wasn't good enough to be the number 1 pick. I think part of the problem was that number 6 was a bad spot in this draft. I think Bismack was the guy to pursue for a "potential pick". Klay Thompson and Vucevic would have seemed to be reaches, but were probably the best bets for immediate help.

[closg00]

Good discussion, I appreciate the input from European hoops followers so I've got a question.

How-many Vesely-type players can be found playing in the Euro Leagues? I understand that Ves has better dunking ability than most Euro players, but are his hustle and hi basketball IQ that difficult to find? From observing his game I thought:

A. He would have been available at our 18th pick or later
B. Players similar to Vesely (with a little less athleticism) could be found and signed as free agents from Europe.

[Zonkerbl]

I understood the logic. The last lesson we learned was from the Darko Milicic disaster -- no matter how skilled, don't draft a player who can't crack the starting five of his European club. So Vesely did. He's got a great attitude, great instincts, good team player.

He's a good player and he'll contribute. Would rather have had Faried though.

[nate33]

The ability for a player to improve isn't solely based on his age and experience. The most important factor is his willingness to work. A few weeks ago, I listened to an NBA Today podcast where they interviewed David Thorpe. Thorpe runs the Pro Training Center in Florida and he told the story of Udonis Haslem.

Haslem was a 300 pound center in college and didn't get drafted. He lost weight after college and ended up playing a year of pro ball overseas. Thorpe recognized that Haslem had an incredible work ethic and he believed he could turn Haslem into a good pro. He knew that the best way for Haslem to get minutes was to become an uber role player so he had Haslem work on his defense, his rebounding, and his 17-foot jumper.

Haslem was a .59% FT shooter his freshman year in college. He was a 69% shooter as a 21-year-old senior. As a 23-year-old rookie he shot 76% from the line. These days, he shoots 80%.

Tracking his FG% is a bit harder. According to Hoopdata, Haslem had brought his FG% from 16-23 feet up to 40.0% by 2007. (The data doesn't go back earlier than that.) Last year, Haslem hit 48% of his shots from 16-23 feet. So even between the ages of 26 and 30, he showed substantial improvement.

The point is, Vesely isn't a finished product. I was ready to give up hope on him earlier this year because he was so bad offensively. But then I saw how much muscle he has managed to add in the midst of the grueling compressed NBA schedule. That proves to me that the kid has a great work ethic. I can only assume that they preferred for him to play SF in the Euroleagues so they didn't ask him to bulk up. I think Vesely can put on more weight - enough weight so that he can match up with centers. If he can do that, he might well be worth his draft slot. If he can also develop a jumper like Haslem did, he'll definitely be worth his draft slot and may even be one of the steals of his draft class.

[DCZards]

How-many Vesely-type players can be found playing in the Euro Leagues? I understand that Ves has better dunking ability than most Euro players, but are his hustle and hi basketball IQ that difficult to find? From observing his game I thought:

A. He would have been available at our 18th pick or later
B. Players similar to Vesely (with a little less athleticism) could be found and signed as free agents from Europe.

No way Vesely would have been there at the 18th pick. While he might not have been worth the 6th pick (time will tell) I'm sure other NBA teams had their eye on Ves as well so he probably would have gone in the top 10-12.

[DCZards]

I think Vesely may be the "Joe Smith" of the 6th pick. The problem was not that Joe Smith was a bad basketball player, but he just wasn't good enough to be the number 1 pick. I think part of the problem was that number 6 was a bad spot in this draft. I think Bismack was the guy to pursue for a "potential pick". Klay Thompson and Vucevic would have seemed to be reaches, but were probably the best bets for immediate help.

I like Bismack a lot, especially his shot blocking, rebounding and all-around effort. But I think Ves will be a better play with his combo of size, speed, b'ball IQ and, hopefully, work ethic.

A few teams are going to regret passing on Klay Thompson. I expect him to turn out to be one of the 4-5 best players in last year's draft.

[jivelikenice]

Nate's on point. Vesely isn't great now but look at what he was to start the season and look at him now. He's stronger, he's playing more to his athleticism, and he abviously is working hard on the jumper (i know he's only made 2 j's but his ft% has gone up substantially). If he can improve that much with no offseason in a compressed schedule after suffering a hip injury in TC, then I think he has a lot more room to grow as a player. Forget the age, the guy is raw and with his athleticism you can't say he's a finished product by any stretch.

[Johnlac1]

I can't believe the Wizards didn't know that Vesely was a raw product when they drafted him. The comparions to Biyombo as another raw player with loads of potential is interesting, and makes me wonder how long will teams hold on to projects. Gortat did basically squat his first three years in the league, but he did not get nearly as many minutes as Vesely and Biyombo are getting for their teams. However, both the Bobcats and Wizards were looking at physical specimens and hoping for the best. Klay Thompson might turn out to be a better pro than V and B, but another shooter is not what the Wizards needed. They look at Vesely as a unique player who could play the 3 and 4 positions because of his size and athletic ability. All teams would like a player like that, someone who can play defense, team ball, and score a few points. Granted, Vesely is really raw, but he has been putting up better numbers lately. Biyombo is not playing so well of late, but again his potential on defense is something that would help the Bobcats more than just another scorer. He's two years younger than Vesely as well. It will be interesting to follow both those players and see how long their respective teams have the patience to wait for improvement.

[jivelikenice]

I think they knoew he was a project. When you look at it, it looks like they decided that in a weak draft why not take a shot on upside. I also think that Ernie probably overvalued talent on the roster like Young & Crawford and didn't think another shooter who would need touches was necessary. It also makes you wonder if they were planning as if they expected the lockout to last the whole year which would have given Jan another season overseas....