Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza

[Induveca]

People still flipping out about this? This may be the most divisive topic ever on this board.

Go take a vacation guys......this deal is done. To quote some random guy.

“For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been'.”

Just finished a year patent project in NYC, terminated all contractors a few weeks ago (gotta love when contractors feel the need for justification for a "contract" being over).

Now I'm off to Montreal for a 3 month vacation! Best thing about Montreal (although I've never been)? They are basketball clueless, and I won't hear a peep about the NBA. Also it's not as hot at night in the summer.

Go take a vacation fellas, it's summer.

[Illuminaire]

People are still complaining about other people talking about relevant topics on a discussion board that caters to passionate, talkative individuals?

If you don't want to be part of the conversation, you don't have to read the thread.

[montestewart]

How is what we're doing "deviating" from the plan? It seems very similar if you ask me.

I was partially responding to this:

This sort of "title or bust" mindset, with the incessant "OKC model" mantra are an unsustainable delusion that can only lead to bitterness for 25 out of the 30 fanbases in the NBA.

Maybe you two should talk amongst yourselves.

I rarely mention "OKC model," but where it appears to be a deviation to me is adding too much high-priced veteran salary before the team is ready for that direction. What if Beal (or MKG, or Barnes, etc) doesn't pan out? What if Vesely doesn't develop beyond rotation player? What if Seraphin isn't ever quite on Ibaka's level? Sure, that's the breaks, but w/ Nene and Okafor in the middle and a (hopefully) improving Wall, this team should be good for 30-40 wins. Just enough to likely never get a high pick. Maybe they were already on their way to such a record without the additions (as I think they were), but that "pick and a prospect" rings in my ears. And look at the kind of FA additions OKC made: Sefalosha came first, and he looks like the kind of addition I would imagine would have made sense this year, not necessarily a defender, but a complimentary, team-oriented role player on a small contract. Then Perkins. Then Fisher. The three of them, all FAs, cost a little more than $12.5 million. In a tiny market. If you wait until it looks like there's something to go to, sometimes the FAs will come to you. As long as you have some money to spend.

There's really no right or wrong in this. It's my perception, one that's obviously shared by others. You don't share it. I hope you and yours are right, because I hate losing, and I won't be too much happier with Wall's peak years being near misses and 1st round eliminations.

PS: In a roundabout way, a number of people have addressed your supposition that Wizards strategy may have been to bypass big name FAs. As a number of us have asserted, we're not tied to signing Harden, Gordon, Anderson, etc., although I would hope they would at least occasionally explore the option. I was more attracted to getting young players, and otherwise adding veterans prudently and economically. Okafor may be on his downside, but he's a good player, and I don't mind Ariza as much as a few here do. I just don't understand the urgency to acquire these two players, at the cost of nearly $30 million over the next two years, right now. Time will tell. Maybe there's a flip (not Flip) in the future that will make it all make sense.

[Induveca]

People are still complaining about other people talking about relevant topics on discussion board that caters to passionate, talkative individuals?

If you don't want to be part of the conversation, you don't have to read the thread.

Good point, and agree.

However, I would highly suggest changing the title of the thread to "Lewis for Okafor/Ariza: Beating a Dead Horse" if it reaches 100 pages.

[fishercob]

People are still complaining about other people talking about relevant topics on discussion board that caters to passionate, talkative individuals?

If you don't want to be part of the conversation, you don't have to read the thread.

Good point, and agree.

However, I would highly suggest changing the title of the thread to "Lewis for Okafor/Ariza: Beating a Dead Horse" if it reaches 100 pages.

I actually think it's a fairly impressive discussion by the board in such a compressed period.

[closg00]

People still flipping out about this? This may be the most divisive topic ever on this board.

Go take a vacation guys......this deal is done. To quote some random guy.

“For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been'.”

Just finished a year patent project in NYC, terminated all contractors a few weeks ago (gotta love when contractors feel the need for justification for a "contract" being over).

Now I'm off to Montreal for a 3 month vacation! Best thing about Montreal (although I've never been)? They are basketball clueless, and I won't hear a peep about the NBA. Also it's not as hot at night in the summer.

Go take a vacation fellas, it's summer.

Give my regards to the ladies at Chez Paree, it's a must-visit when in Montreal

[Induveca]

People still flipping out about this? This may be the most divisive topic ever on this board.

Go take a vacation guys......this deal is done. To quote some random guy.

“For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been'.”

Just finished a year patent project in NYC, terminated all contractors a few weeks ago (gotta love when contractors feel the need for justification for a "contract" being over).

Now I'm off to Montreal for a 3 month vacation! Best thing about Montreal (although I've never been)? They are basketball clueless, and I won't hear a peep about the NBA. Also it's not as hot at night in the summer.

Go take a vacation fellas, it's summer.

Give my regards to the ladies at Chez Paree, it's a must-visit when in Montreal

I have heard such things, and luckily my current lady is into visiting these exact types of establishments! Don't know if that's good or bad....but hey, it's convenient!

[DCZards]

I rarely mention "OKC model," but where it appears to be a deviation to me is adding too much high-priced veteran salary before the team is ready for that direction. And look at the kind of FA additions OKC made: Sefalosha came first, and he looks like the kind of addition I would imagine would have made sense this year, not necessarily a defender, but a complimentary, team-oriented role player on a small contract. Then Perkins. Then Fisher. The three of them, all FAs, cost a little more than $12.5 million. In a tiny market. If you wait until it looks like there's something to go to, sometimes the FAs will come to you. As long as you have some money to spend..

Both Sefalosa and Perkins came to OKC via trades. Neither one was a free agent.

[montestewart]

People are still complaining about other people talking about relevant topics on discussion board that caters to passionate, talkative individuals?

If you don't want to be part of the conversation, you don't have to read the thread.

Good point, and agree.

However, I would highly suggest changing the title of the thread to "Lewis for Okafor/Ariza: Beating a Dead Horse" if it reaches 100 pages.

If the Wizards win 45+ games or lose 55+ games, this thread will surely keep coming back and easily get to 200 pages.

[montestewart]

I rarely mention "OKC model," but where it appears to be a deviation to me is adding too much high-priced veteran salary before the team is ready for that direction. And look at the kind of FA additions OKC made: Sefalosha came first, and he looks like the kind of addition I would imagine would have made sense this year, not necessarily a defender, but a complimentary, team-oriented role player on a small contract. Then Perkins. Then Fisher. The three of them, all FAs, cost a little more than $12.5 million. In a tiny market. If you wait until it looks like there's something to go to, sometimes the FAs will come to you. As long as you have some money to spend..

Both Sefalosa and Perkins came to OKC via trades. Neither one was a free agent.

Yep, I totally had that wrong. But absent a big (and quite unlikely) splash in the near future, I envisioned here a more gradual addition of veterans (via trade or as FAs) that didn't take up so much of the payroll so quickly.

[hands11]

Hands and Veiji: I wish I could continue this debate because I thought there was some point we were contending, but we are talking past one another. I encourage you to learn more about economics and the CBA, because you're simply wrong here.

I hope (and think it's likely) that Leonsis isn't making the same mistake, but instead believes in the power of a veteran lockerroom.

I think I understand economic plenty young man.

You were the one who brought up economics terms such as sunk cost. In economics, that would be every player with a signed contract. I then took to the level where the debate really should be. Asset value an opportunity cost. Those sunk cost contracts have asset value and those assets present opportunities. They can even appreciate given the right conditions. It is just your view that they could have maximized the asset value by paying 14M and having the cleared cap space. Others have pointed out that in going that way you would likely use that cap space to fill the voids by having a large sunk cost. Longer contracts for FA you would sign at some future date. If you even find what you want.

Ted/EG found what they would except. They added two vets both who play defense and both who rebound. And both contracts are only for two years so they can be paid to term or traded in the final year. They got that in an exchange of assets.

I also suggested instead of coming up with cute analogies, we stick to the rule and system in which this is really happening. Poker s a poor example. You put money in the middle and it is not lost until it is lost. You fold or you call and lose. Then it is gone. Or you win and it is yours. This is not that.

I framed all of those things accurately. No reason to step away from accurately describing a situation and correcting you on your misstated sunk cost comments. That is the economics of the situation.

[willbcocks]

The one thing OKC did with Cap room was secure the 11th pick to draft Cole Aldrich (giving up a couple late firsts and taking on Morris Peterson's 6 million salary for one year).

It didn't work out (and I hated the pick at the time), but it's another example of using cap space to potentially improve your assets.

[willbcocks]

Hands: it's nothing new, but you're embarassing yourself. And the poker analogy is appropriate. If you consider money you have put into the pot "not lost," you're in trouble. Any money that you have put in the pot is no longer yours, and should only be used to help calculate pot odds.

[hands11]

Wait, you want fans of a professional sports team to be happy because their team is going to play hard and TRY to win games? On what planet should this not be the minimum expectation for a professional team?

Of course, I want the Wizards to try to win next season. I also want them to be competitive for more than a 7th or 8th seed for the next couple years and then face yet another rebuild.

What I am saying is that fans have to be realistic in their hopes and expectations.. Wanting the FO to build a title contender in the space of 3 to 4 years (reasonnable timescale) is a reasonnable hope, but a very misguided expectation... out of 30 teams in the league only 5 or 6 teams are realistic title candidates.. Assuming a turnover ration of 1 team a year in that group, and even if no tems comes out and rejoins that group again, in the space of 5 years only 10 teams in the league will have a chance to contend for a title... should the rest of the teams just fold ?

At the stage the Wizards are at, fans should hope for more wins, for a functionning team, for a team playing sound basketball, for a good positive atmosphere in the arena because there will be no more knuckleheads to boo.. That is what fans should hope and what they should have expectations for.. you can also hope that from there the team builds up a good dynamic, that the draftee turns out to be quasi the best player in the draft, that Wall makes THAT leap, that in 2014 a superstar wants to sign here and that the team contends for a title startint g 2015... But don't get carried away.

Next year this team will look and play like one. players will have pride again, Wall will hold his head high, not slump. Let's enjoy that. This is not being content with mediocrity... When the Wizards spend 5 years in a row between 38 and 45 wins, sure you can complain about mediocrity and being stuck in the no man's land... But let's first try to get there !

I would cut that number to 3 or 4.

Personally, I totally agree with what you are saying and have said it myself before. Ideal at this point is to have a team that can challenge for the playoff and then the second round of the playoffs and compete at that leave. If that team has young players that can get better and they are not strapped with several long contracts that are not worth it, then you can win games, enjoy following your team and still dream of getting better.

I see nothing they have done that precludes me from feeling that way.

They got close to this with the last rebuild but they locked in to early. They needed to take the assets they acquired and reload. They could have gotten a ton for Gil and I said trade him way back when they could have. Gil was never going to lead a team and farther then he did. The knee thing had nothing to do with it. He still would have done something stupid like the gun thing. And even if he didn't, he still wouldn't have lead a team past what he did.

This team is designed way better as of today. It has way more young player who can stick around. The vets are there to balance out the young rebuild so their talents are not wasted. They got their burn last year. Wall even the year before. Now lets see what they do with some vet competition. Cream rises to the top. Lets see what they have. Kevin has taken the challenge. He isn't conceding any minutes. He is just going to work harder. Lets see what C Singleton does. And Ves and Booker. It you want it. Go take it. Nothing is stopping them.

[hands11]

Looking at my crystal ball, most NBA organizations don't make sound financial judgments, which is why the lockout happened in the first place. To think miraculously that we would have signed better players for better deals with the cap space is unfortunately not very realistic. In addition, we're talking about 2 year commitments. Not 4 to 5 years.

The cynic in me (and in recent years as a Wiz fan, he has begun to get the upper hand) would agree: we should applaud the move because it limits the capacity of EG to make even worse moves.

I have been that cynical before--for example, when we traded for Kip, part of why I was really happy with that move was that it precluded worse ones. I guess my antipathy for this move is that the alternative--simply not signing anyone--was so simple, and my expectations had built up slightly based on EG's record under Ted.

I guess I should return to cynicism, as it's easy to appreciate two year contracts we shouldn't have signed when comparing them to four year contracts we could have signed.

Not sure what you see those as your only two choices. And I'm not sure why you were surprised. Ted said he wanted to trade Lewis. It was posted here several times. I know I commented about it. It isn't what I projected as the path either but given that he was going to trade Lewis, I'm happy for what they got in return. I feared it would involve a longer contract. I was dreaming of Kep returning to back up at PG but know that I think about it more, that was not realistic. He would sign for 2 years 5M a year. I will most likely get a 3 year or more from someone.

Ted/EG did well given what they had to work with. That said, I do wonder how Oka is going to mix in as I posted recently. Hopefully Randy can steer this stew and get it right.

[closg00]

I rarely mention "OKC model," but where it appears to be a deviation to me is adding too much high-priced veteran salary before the team is ready for that direction. And look at the kind of FA additions OKC made: Sefalosha came first, and he looks like the kind of addition I would imagine would have made sense this year, not necessarily a defender, but a complimentary, team-oriented role player on a small contract. Then Perkins. Then Fisher. The three of them, all FAs, cost a little more than $12.5 million. In a tiny market. If you wait until it looks like there's something to go to, sometimes the FAs will come to you. As long as you have some money to spend..

Both Sefalosa and Perkins came to OKC via trades. Neither one was a free agent.

True, but the trades were made to fill specific needs, OKC wanted to get tougher.

[MF23]

Still hate this trade but I am interested in seeing John Wall with above average NBA players. These two don't make the Wizards a contention team, John Wall does if he takes the next step. Unfortunately I believe it would have been the same without these two and only the addtion of the draft pick.

[hands11]

Bickerstaff, +1.

The WIz are trying to change the culture.. The NEne trade was the beginning of the process, not the end. we now have 3 quality vets (although overpaid) who will help the team grow, play the right way, TRAIN the right way, etc.... just NENE wasn't going to change the way the team worked once the novelty of NENE + new coach wore off.

Grunfeld created the culture, was/is in-charge of the culture.

Gil has a lot to do with it. He was the most talented player and he lead the circus. AJ and CB did what they could give Gil was there. And Gil getting extended for that much is on the owner. I doubt Ted would sign that contract.

But adding Gil was a great move back when they did. The team was terrible and lacking talent. Gil at least gave them that for a few years. And he filled Abe's pockets.

[hands11]

People still flipping out about this? This may be the most divisive topic ever on this board.

Go take a vacation guys......this deal is done. To quote some random guy.

“For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been'.”

Just finished a year patent project in NYC, terminated all contractors a few weeks ago (gotta love when contractors feel the need for justification for a "contract" being over).

Now I'm off to Montreal for a 3 month vacation! Best thing about Montreal (although I've never been)? They are basketball clueless, and I won't hear a peep about the NBA. Also it's not as hot at night in the summer.

Go take a vacation fellas, it's summer.

Im headed to Italy in 3 weeks for two weeks so yeah, that will be needed and enjoyed. Anyone been to Sicily ?

[popper]

People still flipping out about this? This may be the most divisive topic ever on this board.

Go take a vacation guys......this deal is done. To quote some random guy.

“For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been'.”

Just finished a year patent project in NYC, terminated all contractors a few weeks ago (gotta love when contractors feel the need for justification for a "contract" being over).

Now I'm off to Montreal for a 3 month vacation! Best thing about Montreal (although I've never been)? They are basketball clueless, and I won't hear a peep about the NBA. Also it's not as hot at night in the summer.

Go take a vacation fellas, it's summer.

Im headed to Italy in 3 weeks for two weeks so yeah, that will be needed and enjoyed. Anyone been to Sicily ?

I got stabbed their about 15 yrs ago. Be careful.