Washington was

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Because in the NBA, you have owners that invest, and you have owners that EXTRACT.

Investor owners: Davidson of the Pistons, Mark Cuban, Holt of the Spurs, Clay Bennett, a few others. I'd put the guy running the Nets in that category; his "win-now" approach is completely different from that of Leonsis.

Extractive owners: Don Sterling (at least until he drafted Blake Griffin), Herb Kohl, Ted Leonsis, guys who see the team not as an investment but as a piggy bank (and in many cases, a piggy bank funded by taxpayer money)

That's why there's such a big gap between the contenders and the non-contenders - they're content to collect their profits and not try to win beyond getting the occasional 8th seed. Because that costs time, money and effort - effort owners like Ted don't want to expend. Hey, much easier to make **** blog posts than to do the research and hire an effective medical staff and advanced scouting department!

Tremendous post, Chaos Revenant.

Some things, like good advice have been offered for free to Ted Leonsis. IMO Ted's arrogant because I've been giving up ideas for free for years. He should listen to me and others who know more than I do, but he's in an ivory tower with a moat around it, and with EG guarding the castle door.

Ashord and Simpson had a song out called, "Don't Cost You Nothing." Very interesting lyrics BTW:

Don't cost you nothing
Take a chance as you go
Don't cost you nothing
If you like it, come back for more

I ain't selling myself to you, baby
The way that others often do
People you know call me crazy
They determine what I offer you
It don't cost you nothing

More lyrics: http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/a/ashford_simpson/

I might be crazy but I think I know what the guy could do to turn things around in very short order.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

Great, the Livingston quote is on the tap. More fodder for the "No FA's will come here unless we trade from them" mindset. Oh-well, Ted will take to his blog with a response from his PR machine.

I love how the picture is EG and not SL.

That is funny, I laughed when I saw that too!

[Dat2U]

On the positron side, I'm thinking one of the reasons Livingston thought it was a bad situation here was the presence of the 3 dumbigos. Now that Blatche, McGee, and Young are gone - the atmosphere is different.

Actually, Livingston was talking about his time from earlier this season, not from when he was here two years ago.

[LyricalRico]

I did a little research, just to put Shaun Livingston's comments in perspective.

--Livingston was with the Wizards (this time) for about 5 weeks, from 11/15/12 to 12/23/12.
--He was signed the day Jannero Pargo was waived.
--When Livingston became a Wizard, Washington was 0-7.
--The Wizards lost their next 5 games after Livingston was signed, to go to 0-12.
--Washington was 3-22 and had lost 7 straight. So, they were on a 12 game losing streak when he arrived and on a 7 game losing streak when Shaun Livingston departed.
--Washington was without Nene and Wall the entire time.
--When Livingston was a Wizard, Jordan Crawford was the de facto PG. A. J. Price, Shaun Livingston, and Shelvin Mack all played sparse minutes.
--Without Nene, Earl Barron generally outplayed Okafor and Seraphin the entire time Livingston was a Wizard.
--Livingston was waived as the Wizards had lost their seventh straight game. Garrett Temple was signed.

So, with all this in mind, my comment is this season started with a terribly toxic lineup. Livingston saw nothing but a confused roster and a team that had to have TERRIBLE chemistry.

Thanks for posting this. And don't forget that this was also pre-Crawford being benched and then traded (who reportedly was a big part if the dysfunction). So I'm basically looking at this as two different teams - the one before mid-January, and the one after.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

My next post after that deals with the after team, LR. I agree, this "current, rather flat team" still is built on less than ideal footing.

Others have noted that EG teams are like this. We're not dysfunctional and the culture has been transformed, but Ariza and Okafor may either or both become UFAs. Nene appears to be walking wounded or just a bit better. Wall is fast becoming a target of media hate and contract talks. This is like EGs other teams from a win/loss perspective as well as from player development being obscured.

While it's a different team, the more things change the more they stay the same. I feel the Wizards are going to drop some games and end this season on a down note unless Beal picks up healthy where he left off. And in the event they do win all that does is ruin the tank lottery position and also make sure Seraphin, Vesely, and Singleton play as few minutes as Wittman can play them in order to try and salvage his job.

Either way, Livingston is right about this team IMO.

[closg00]

I did a little research, just to put Shaun Livingston's comments in perspective.

--Livingston was with the Wizards (this time) for about 5 weeks, from 11/15/12 to 12/23/12.
--He was signed the day Jannero Pargo was waived.
--When Livingston became a Wizard, Washington was 0-7.
--The Wizards lost their next 5 games after Livingston was signed, to go to 0-12.
--Washington was 3-22 and had lost 7 straight. So, they were on a 12 game losing streak when he arrived and on a 7 game losing streak when Shaun Livingston departed.
--Washington was without Nene and Wall the entire time.
--When Livingston was a Wizard, Jordan Crawford was the de facto PG. A. J. Price, Shaun Livingston, and Shelvin Mack all played sparse minutes.
--Without Nene, Earl Barron generally outplayed Okafor and Seraphin the entire time Livingston was a Wizard.
--Livingston was waived as the Wizards had lost their seventh straight game. Garrett Temple was signed.

So, with all this in mind, my comment is this season started with a terribly toxic lineup. Livingston saw nothing but a confused roster and a team that had to have TERRIBLE chemistry.

Thanks for posting this. And don't forget that this was also pre-Crawford being benched and then traded (who reportedly was a big part if the dysfunction). So I'm basically looking at this as two different teams - the one before mid-January, and the one after.

We all knew you would latch onto this post When Livingston criticizes the Wizards "organizational structure", he does-so after having been here twice. 2nd, the Cavs win/loss record is similar to the Wizards. The continued talk about the Wizards record is a red-herring.

[Knighthonor]

Well EG did put together the Gil team which flopped only after the Gil career injury.
So maybe that'd why Ted trust him so much. Maybe the guy is smarter than he appear.

NBA is a shady business with things like the draft being rigged. Maybe EG is playing his cards in that as well.
You never know.

[Silvie Lysandra]

A competent GM makes a Finals with Gilbert. A great one wins a title with Arenas. Arenas was one of the few players in the NBA who could straight up outplay LeBron James individually in a playoff series. He averaged 29 ppg on 30% usage om high TS% - similar to what guys like Kobe and Wade did. And this was with pretty bad shot selection and a still developing offensive game.

The best Grunfeld could do was surround him with terrible coaching and 3rd rate talents like Butler and Jamison (Jamison is a net negative player, Butler was a 3rd or 4th option) and a nonexistent bench. Also he was nowhere near a terrible defender but there were so many players there that were. And then instead of shutting Gil down so he doesn't rush himself back, he lets him play and he ruins the knee for good.

EG lucked into that team.

[Knighthonor]

A competent GM makes a Finals with Gilbert. A great one wins a title with Arenas. Arenas was one of the few players in the NBA who could straight up outplay LeBron James individually in a playoff series. He averaged 29 ppg on 30% usage om high TS% - similar to what guys like Kobe and Wade did. And this was with pretty bad shot selection and a still developing offensive game.

The best Grunfeld could do was surround him with terrible coaching and 3rd rate talents like Butler and Jamison (Jamison is a net negative player, Butler was a 3rd or 4th option) and a nonexistent bench. Also he was nowhere near a terrible defender but there were so many players there that were. And then instead of shutting Gil down so he doesn't rush himself back, he lets him play and he ruins the knee for good.

EG lucked into that team.

I can relate to what you saying, but have to disagree with some points as well. There can only be one champion team. During the Gil era there were many top talented teams.. The wizards lost to the cavs aka Lebron cavs each time. They were just better. Not like the team sucked. Can't blame EG for that. Butler wasn't bad here. I don't know what you talking about. Also the bench was very good. Team broke down from the injuries. That's something Eag couldn't control. The new generation teams are made up of super teams. It was amazing what EG pulled off with the wizards.

Getting Gil, then getting Jamerson
Than the Brown trade for Butler.
You have to be in serious denial if you believe that wasn't a good GM.

EG seem to be making stupid decisions now, but maybe that's part of some secret larger plan. Also keep in mind the shadyness of the NBA. EG may have had to jump through extra loops that the public doesn't know about.

I didn't like the Crawford trade, but giving great talent to a star team for little to nothing seems like a shadow market move behind the public doors like the NO trade was.
Stern may hook EG for those goodie points he pulled for the teams stern is interested in.

[dorianwrite]

The Wizards plucked Livingston's broken-down ass off the scrap-heap a few years back when he didn't exactly have a line of suitors for his services. Whatever the accuracy/inaccuracy of his statements about the team at the beginning of the year -- and let's say those comments are accurate, with big-time caveats that have already been pointed out -- it doesn't say much for his character that he would make such a point to bite the hand that fed. I'm sure there were plenty of ways not to go there, but he found the way to do so. Poor judgment.

[SUPERBALLMAN]

A competent GM makes a Finals with Gilbert. A great one wins a title with Arenas. Arenas was one of the few players in the NBA who could straight up outplay LeBron James individually in a playoff series. He averaged 29 ppg on 30% usage om high TS% - similar to what guys like Kobe and Wade did. And this was with pretty bad shot selection and a still developing offensive game.

The best Grunfeld could do was surround him with terrible coaching and 3rd rate talents like Butler and Jamison (Jamison is a net negative player, Butler was a 3rd or 4th option) and a nonexistent bench. Also he was nowhere near a terrible defender but there were so many players there that were. And then instead of shutting Gil down so he doesn't rush himself back, he lets him play and he ruins the knee for good.

EG lucked into that team.

Re: Washington was “one of the worst spots”

Post by Knighthonor » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:50 pm
Well EG did put together the Gil team which flopped only after the Gil career injury.
So maybe that'd why Ted trust him so much. Maybe the guy is smarter than he appear.

NBA is a shady business with things like the draft being rigged. Maybe EG is playing his cards in that as well.
You never know.

Re: Washington was “one of the worst spots”

Post by closg00 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:41 pm

LyricalRico wrote:

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:I did a little research, just to put Shaun Livingston's comments in perspective.

--Livingston was with the Wizards (this time) for about 5 weeks, from 11/15/12 to 12/23/12.
--He was signed the day Jannero Pargo was waived.
--When Livingston became a Wizard, Washington was 0-7.
--The Wizards lost their next 5 games after Livingston was signed, to go to 0-12.
--Washington was 3-22 and had lost 7 straight. So, they were on a 12 game losing streak when he arrived and on a 7 game losing streak when Shaun Livingston departed.
--Washington was without Nene and Wall the entire time.
--When Livingston was a Wizard, Jordan Crawford was the de facto PG. A. J. Price, Shaun Livingston, and Shelvin Mack all played sparse minutes.
--Without Nene, Earl Barron generally outplayed Okafor and Seraphin the entire time Livingston was a Wizard.
--Livingston was waived as the Wizards had lost their seventh straight game. Garrett Temple was signed.

So, with all this in mind, my comment is this season started with a terribly toxic lineup. Livingston saw nothing but a confused roster and a team that had to have TERRIBLE chemistry.





Thanks for posting this. And don't forget that this was also pre-Crawford being benched and then traded (who reportedly was a big part if the dysfunction). So I'm basically looking at this as two different teams - the one before mid-January, and the one after.



We all knew you would latch onto this post When Livingston criticizes the Wizards "organizational structure", he does-so after having been here twice. 2nd, the Cavs win/loss record is similar to the Wizards. The continued talk about the Wizards record is a red-herring.

Re: Washington was “one of the worst spots”

Post by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:32 pm
My next post after that deals with the after team, LR. I agree, this "current, rather flat team" still is built on less than ideal footing.

Others have noted that EG teams are like this. We're not dysfunctional and the culture has been transformed, but Ariza and Okafor may either or both become UFAs. Nene appears to be walking wounded or just a bit better. Wall is fast becoming a target of media hate and contract talks. This is like EGs other teams from a win/loss perspective as well as from player development being obscured.

While it's a different team, the more things change the more they stay the same. I feel the Wizards are going to drop some games and end this season on a down note unless Beal picks up healthy where he left off. And in the event they do win all that does is ruin the tank lottery position and also make sure Seraphin, Vesely, and Singleton play as few minutes as Wittman can play them in order to try and salvage his job.

Either way, Livingston is right about this team IMO.

Re: Washington was “one of the worst spots”

Post by LyricalRico » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:25 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:I did a little research, just to put Shaun Livingston's comments in perspective.

--Livingston was with the Wizards (this time) for about 5 weeks, from 11/15/12 to 12/23/12.
--He was signed the day Jannero Pargo was waived.
--When Livingston became a Wizard, Washington was 0-7.
--The Wizards lost their next 5 games after Livingston was signed, to go to 0-12.
--Washington was 3-22 and had lost 7 straight. So, they were on a 12 game losing streak when he arrived and on a 7 game losing streak when Shaun Livingston departed.
--Washington was without Nene and Wall the entire time.
--When Livingston was a Wizard, Jordan Crawford was the de facto PG. A. J. Price, Shaun Livingston, and Shelvin Mack all played sparse minutes.
--Without Nene, Earl Barron generally outplayed Okafor and Seraphin the entire time Livingston was a Wizard.
--Livingston was waived as the Wizards had lost their seventh straight game. Garrett Temple was signed.

So, with all this in mind, my comment is this season started with a terribly toxic lineup. Livingston saw nothing but a confused roster and a team that had to have TERRIBLE chemistry.





Thanks for posting this. And don't forget that this was also pre-Crawford being benched and then traded (who reportedly was a big part if the dysfunction). So I'm basically looking at this as two different teams - the one before mid-January, and the one after.

Re: Washington was “one of the worst spots”

Post by Dat2U » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:22 pm

Ruzious wrote:On the positron side, I'm thinking one of the reasons Livingston thought it was a bad situation here was the presence of the 3 dumbigos. Now that Blatche, McGee, and Young are gone - the atmosphere is different.



Actually, Livingston was talking about his time from earlier this season, not from when he was here two years ago.

Re: Washington was “one of the worst spots”

Post by SUPERBALLMAN » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:58 pm

GhostsOfGil wrote:

closg00 wrote:Great, the Livingston quote is on the tap. More fodder for the "No FA's will come here unless we trade from them" mindset. Oh-well, Ted will take to his blog with a response from his PR machine.



I love how the picture is EG and not SL.




That is funny, I laughed when I saw that too!

Re: Washington was “one of the worst spots”

Post by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:56 pm

Chaos Revenant wrote:Because in the NBA, you have owners that invest, and you have owners that EXTRACT.

Investor owners: Davidson of the Pistons, Mark Cuban, Holt of the Spurs, Clay Bennett, a few others. I'd put the guy running the Nets in that category; his "win-now" approach is completely different from that of Leonsis.

Extractive owners: Don Sterling (at least until he drafted Blake Griffin), Herb Kohl, Ted Leonsis, guys who see the team not as an investment but as a piggy bank (and in many cases, a piggy bank funded by taxpayer money)

That's why there's such a big gap between the contenders and the non-contenders - they're content to collect their profits and not try to win beyond getting the occasional 8th seed. Because that costs time, money and effort - effort owners like Ted don't want to expend. Hey, much easier to make **** blog posts than to do the research and hire an effective medical staff and advanced scouting department!



Tremendous post, Chaos Revenant.

Some things, like good advice have been offered for free to Ted Leonsis. IMO Ted's arrogant because I've been giving up ideas for free for years. He should listen to me and others who know more than I do, but he's in an ivory tower with a moat around it, and with EG guarding the castle door.

Ashord and Simpson had a song out called, "Don't Cost You Nothing." Very interesting lyrics BTW:

Don't cost you nothing
Take a chance as you go
Don't cost you nothing
If you like it, come back for more

I ain't selling myself to you, baby
The way that others often do
People you know call me crazy
They determine what I offer you
It don't cost you nothing

More lyrics: http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/a/ashford_simpson/



I might be crazy but I think I know what the guy could do to turn things around in very short order.

Re: Washington was “one of the worst spots”

Post by GhostsOfGil » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:53 pm

closg00 wrote:Great, the Livingston quote is on the tap. More fodder for the "No FA's will come here unless we trade from them" mindset. Oh-well, Ted will take to his blog with a response from his PR machine.



I love how the picture is EG and not SL.

Re: Washington was “one of the worst spots”

Post by truwizfan4evr » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:46 pm
Quickly someone send this article to Ted and Ernie.

Re: Washington was “one of the worst spots”

Post by closg00 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:37 pm
Great, the Livingston quote is on the tap. More fodder for the "No FA's will come here unless we trade from them" mindset. Oh-well, Ted will take to his blog with a response from his PR machine.

Re: Washington was “one of the worst spots”

Post by Higga » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:24 pm
It starts at the top.

Ted is a joke. He's no better than Abe Pollin, in fact he might be worse. Abe was just old, but in his prime this franchise was among the best in the league contending for championships.

Re: Washington was “one of the worst spots”

Post by FAH1223 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:17 pm

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:http://www.bulletsforever.com/2013/1/26/3917346/martell-webster-washington-wizards-nba-free-agency

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc- ... ball-game/


This is why we HAVE to keep Martell Webster!



Nah, I think he just loves DC area more than anything

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I will always wonder what would of happened had they kept Hughes. That offseason came the Kwame for Butler trade... They would of have had a starting 5 of Haywood, Jamison, Butler, Hughes, Arenas in a still wide open east. They would of had as good a shot at the finals as anyone else at that time.

[nate33]

I will always wonder what would of happened had they kept Hughes. That offseason came the Kwame for Butler trade... They would of have had a starting 5 of Haywood, Jamison, Butler, Hughes, Arenas in a still wide open east. They would of had as good a shot at the finals as anyone else at that time.

It's not that simple. With Hughes resigned at $11M, they probably wouldn't have traded for Butler in the first place because resigning him would have resulted in them exceeding the luxtax. They were only able to afford a minimum salary guy (Deshawn Stevenson) at SG

[Kanyewest]

^^ Well Butler certainly wouldn't have gotten his extension but the Wizards may have been poised to be a 48 win team with that roster. But other bad salaries added up anyways like Jamison's and Etan Thomas's.

Not sure how the Wizards were excpected to get a championship with Gilbert Arenas though especially because of the injury. The first year the Wizards got to the 2nd round. The Wizards lost a close series to the Cavs that could have gone either way. I rell wonder what the Wizards would have done with a healthy roster in 2007 or even 2008.

Well probably is more likely than not that Hughes would have fallen off here as well given Washington's medical staff.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I liked Eddie Jordan as coach but in those losses to Cleveland, almost every game the Wizards frontcourt would get worked and badly out rebounded in the fourth quarter of each game. EJ used to play Jamison and Butler heavy minutes, and he often neglected to play Haywood or Blatche. Eddie Smalls is what I started calling him, because his preference was to use a guy like Ruffin or Songaila at C. He would use Etan Thomas who would get killed by Ilgauskas. The matchups in the fourth quarters were brutal, as Mike Brown would use well-rested Varejao and Ilgauskas and they destroyed the Wizards with second chance points.

Washington didn't have big, athletic guys on their bench like Booker, Seraphin, or Vesely. Ruffin could not score like Booker and Songaila was not a bruiser.

I think the Wizards would have easily gotten post Cleveland had they had a young Nene instead of Jamison or Butler. Back then I also though Eddie could have tried Jamison at SF with Blatche and Haywood; or even with Caron at SG. Jamison averaged 32 and 10 one playoff series vs Cleveland.

Those playoff games were winnable but Washington never took a series from Cleveland. Gil had the game to get them past the Cavaliers but it never happened. I blame coaching and the frontcourt size and depth. That and some fondness by the refs for Lebron's traveling/crab dribbling.

[GhostsOfGil]

CCJ, A deeper more athletic front court would have helped but TBH, there was no way those Wiz teams were getting past the Cavs. The officiating was so bad during those years, I questioned my loyalty towards the sport.

BTW remember Gil's playoff performance in 06? It was flat out fantastic. 34 ppg on 23 shots, 60 ts%, with an oRTG of 119.

[FAH1223]

I liked Eddie Jordan as coach but in those losses to Cleveland, almost every game the Wizards frontcourt would get worked and badly out rebounded in the fourth quarter of each game. EJ used to play Jamison and Butler heavy minutes, and he often neglected to play Haywood or Blatche. Eddie Smalls is what I stared calling him, because his preference was to use a guy like Ruffin or Songaila at C. He would use Etan Thomas who would get killed by Ilgauskas. The matchups in the fourth quarters were brutal, as Mike Brown would use well-rested Varejao and Ilgauskas and they destroyed the Wizards with second chance points.

Washington didn't have big, athletic guys on their bench like Booker, Seraphin, or Vesely. Ruffin could no score like Booker and Songaila was not a bruiser.

I think the Wizards would have easily gotten post Cleveland had they had a young Nene instead of Jamison or Butler. Back then I also though Eddie could have tried Jamison at SF with Blatche and Haywood; or even with Caron at SG. Jamison averaged 32 and 10 one playoff series vs Cleveland.

Those playoff games were winnable but Washington never took a series from Cleveland. Gil had the game to get them past the Cavaliers but it never happened. I blame coaching and the frontcourt size and depth. That and some fondness by the refs for Lebron's traveling/crab dribbling.

The 2006 series was Washington's if not for the refs ...they were a couple of Gilbert free throws away from a Game 7 in CLE despite them. Game 3 was that crab driblle by Lebron to win. Still pisses me off.

2008 was also very winnable despite Gilbert not being able to finish the series. Caron won Game 5 in CLE...

It was more bad coaching with matchups though like you said CCJ. Haywood and Blatche should have gotten more burn... especially Brendan

[montestewart]

When the opposing team's center (Ilgauskas) is openly questioning why Haywood wasn't in the game covering him more, despite his past success against Ilgauskas, you really have to wonder.

[closg00]

Thus began the EFJ movement.

[daSwami]

Welp. Things done changed. Arizkafor wants to opt-in and stay in DC. Winning changes everything.

You have to think that the locker room atmosphere is better than it was when Mo "sad trumpet" Evans was here poisoning it with his whining.