"1 Shy of Success" : The story of the 2013 Nets

[PetroNet]

The few things that I'd say about that though is that:

1) There's no guarantee that Wall becomes a superstar. He has terrible shooting form and I don't know if he'll ever become a threat as a shooter. In today's game, if your PG isn't a threat, you need a big time SG or SF to make up for that difference.

When Wall gets his max contract, that's another 5 years on the books and if he doesn't get beyond D-Will's level we've just added a longer contract and taken on yet another player, whose contract greatly exceeds their playing ability.


2) Wall is due for (what is most likely) a max contract in 2014/15 and Lopez will be pulling $15.7mil at that time too. JJ and Wallace add another 33mil by themselves and if we're talking about adding a Gordon ($15mil) and/or Nene ($13mil), we're over the cap. I wouldn't be surprised if we had other small deals that would easily push us right back up and take us beyond the LT limit again.

If we're beyond the LT, we can't do S&Ts. And on top of that S&Ts don't benefit players anymore because the team they're traded to can only give them a 4year deal. It's better for a superstar player to hit free agency than it is for them to be traded (which is what we're seeing by all of the stars since the new CBA was formed).

Those JJ and Wallace deals are better off expiring for us in 2016 so we'll have tons of cap space to get KD and THEN you can take D-Will's big expiring for the 2nd star player. It makes more since to sign your main guy and then trade for the supporting cast if you can do that.


3) KD, the #2 player in the league will probably the #1 player by that time too.

Who's to say that he doesn't leave OKC in the 2016 offseason and teams up to form another juggernaut, but since we acquired Wall and his max deal, we'd be over the cap to sign him and may not be able to trade for him either.

We could potentially sign both Durant and Love in 2016 and if you let D-Will expire you have a chance to sign Rose, Lawson, Harden, Griffin, or Westbrook in 2017.

yeah, this is kind of my mindset. I'd rather maximize what we can for the next 3 years, be a pretender, and just let everyone expire in 2016 and make a run at 1 or 2 elite player to pair with a prime lopez.

I mean, on that projection we would basically be a team that made 4 straight trips to the playoffs with an established coach(whoever we bring in this year) ina super large market that is a big draw with a bigman others would likely want to team up with. I mean you could even keep an older dwill at his price and extend lopez.

Trading humphries for boozer maximizes you for the next 3 years while not adding salary in 2015-2016 leaving options and well beyodn max money during durants FA year. not only that, but in durants walk year we'd have like 40 million in expiring money to take on durant + any salary they'd want to dump.

[Hello Brooklyn]

John Wall is never going to be the type of player to lead a team to a championship, in my opinion. He has shown no signs of this at all.

Like I said earlier, you need a Lebron James type player to win a championship. We simply don't have one and iwll not, no matter what trades we make.

[enetric]

Guys...

I love the idea of letting everyone expire summer of 2016 and landing Durant. But that is far fetched in so many ways.

First off...Deron will still be here making 22 mil as he is turning 33. Next...you are all nuts if you dont think King will have us committed to even MORE salary beyond Deron for that year. No way he spends the next years without taking on a single contract that goes beyond 3 seasons. Jut not his MO.

So we will start off with about 32mil in cap holds before we even get to whatever else we have on the books. From there we are praying that Durant takes less money on the back end to come here to play with who exactly? A promise that when he is 29 years old that we will quickly rebuild the entire roster around him? Its a hard sell under this new CBA. And that is without even dealing with the fact that under this plan Lopez is simply allowed to walk away at 28 years of age.

Look...I dont care if its Wall. He was an example. And if you saw him these past few months you might be changing your tune...but that wasnt the point. My point was simply....a maxed out 29 year old superstar has no where to go but down. Not just ours. Anyone. Father time keeps moving. So? Are we a contender with this group in the LBJ era of dominance? No. So why devalue our player assets by allowing them to get deeper into their contract while their value declines?

Why not get younger while being at least as good? The trade I proposed gave us a PG who should surpass Deron within the next two years straight up. I got the PF and still retained Hump's contract to help another need area like SF.

I dont see the point in staying the course with this group. We are stuck with two big contracts. Our Center is 25 and earning his money compared to the low supply of quality bigs in the NBA right now. So who can we trade? Its obvious to me. Hump...and Deron. And for clarity I feel the need to repeat...trading a player isnt a punishment. Its about finding something you have of value that someone out there might covet enough to give you something that YOU covet. Deron and Hump have the most trade value this year of anyone on the roster.

[enetric]

The few things that I'd say about that though is that:

1) There's no guarantee that Wall becomes a superstar. He has terrible shooting form and I don't know if he'll ever become a threat as a shooter. In today's game, if your PG isn't a threat, you need a big time SG or SF to make up for that difference.

When Wall gets his max contract, that's another 5 years on the books and if he doesn't get beyond D-Will's level we've just added a longer contract and taken on yet another player, whose contract greatly exceeds their playing ability.

OK lets deal with some of this. All I ask is that you read it all and be open minded for a second....

First, lets be totally honest with ourselves. Yes, there are no guarantees Wall or ANYONE who currently IS NOT a top 3 NBA superstar ever becomes one. We know they dont come with guarantees. You scout, you project, and you hope. That's all there is. No guarantees.

So there is one LBJ. And I project he has a lock on the East and possibly the league for the next 2-3 seasons. Deron is 29 at the start of this one. Is he still developing? No. He is in his prime. How many prime years are left? Will he at some point be better than LBJ? Will he surpass him when LBJ is on the decline? Will he do so before someone else surpasses him? Is Deron even the second best star in the East right now? The honest anwer to all of those questions do not favor a team built around Deron. So why ride this out? Why not think ahead while maintaining the team to be at least as good as it is now?

So even though I wasnt targeting Wall specifically...lets use Wall since he works perfectly for what I am trying to do.

When I make my list of most promising up and coming stars in the NBA under 25 he is certainly near the top of my list. I agree with you that Wall is not a 3 point threat...but his shot is vastly improved. He certainly is a big time scoring threat and he would add major defensive improvement. I would remind you that when Westbrook and Rose came into this league they were also suspect shooters. I strongly suggest you watch Wall now. See how much impact he had on his woeful team when he got to 100% this season. It was impressive. I mean...REALLY impressive. I posted this previously:

Over the final 49 games, the Wizards outscored their opponents 95.6 to 94.5. Over the first 33 games, they were outscored 97.2 to 89.2. In other words...games Wall played vs. the ones he didnt. And lets remember that Nene was a non factor this season and that even with Wall that team stinks.


Now lets deal with the next point you made. And it was a a good one. If you do not have a 3 point threat at the point...you need to spread the floor with your wings. We have a very good shooter at the 2. So the issue is at the 3. If we did land Wall and Nene....Hump's contract is still there to go after a better SF that fits the team's need. Or another 2 guard. JJ could slide over to the 3 if we had that guy. I read post after post trading Hump for Nene or Gordon on this board. I GOT us Nene in this trade and still have Hump's contract to deal. Hypothetically...WHY NOT BOTH? Again, in theory...solved the shooting issues didnt I?

2) Wall is due for (what is most likely) a max contract in 2014/15 and Lopez will be pulling $15.7mil at that time too. JJ and Wallace add another 33mil by themselves and if we're talking about adding a Gordon ($15mil) and/or Nene ($13mil), we're over the cap. I wouldn't be surprised if we had other small deals that would easily push us right back up and take us beyond the LT limit again.

I dont think you thought this first part through. We are never getting under the cap or the LTT with this group. Look at their contracts. The plan as it is will be to deal Hump this year for yet another long term contract. Say that is Nene alone the guy most mention on this board for whatever odd reason. Nene makes 13mil per year in each of the next 3 seasons. With Deron, Lopez, JJ and Crash....we are over the LTT in ALL of the next 3 seasons without adding one single other player. Still need 9 other bodies. So let me assume in some way you were trying to relate that to point #2. You wrote:

If we're beyond the LT, we can't do S&Ts. And on top of that S&Ts don't benefit players anymore because the team they're traded to can only give them a 4year deal. It's better for a superstar player to hit free agency than it is for them to be traded (which is what we're seeing by all of the stars since the new CBA was formed).

This part was true. If you are over the LTT you cannot do S&T deals. That is why we make the trade THIS summer. We acquire Wall and Nene for the price of Deron's contract. Then we own Wall's Bird Rights. NEXT summer he gets his new contract from US. So the S&T issue is avoided. The contract issue is avoided. See..I thought of all of this before I brought it up.

Those JJ and Wallace deals are better off expiring for us in 2016 so we'll have tons of cap space to get KD and THEN you can take D-Will's big expiring for the 2nd star player. It makes more since to sign your main guy and then trade for the supporting cast if you can do that.

No, we wont. As I stated in the previous post we wont have tons of cap space or a realistic plan if we keep Deron Williams. He will still be on the books for another year making 22.3mil. Add in open roster spot cap holds, any picks or prospects we have over the next 3 years and while in theory you can allow JJ and Crash to walk away for nothing you still have the cap hold of a 28 year old Brook Lopez. Is the thought process here to allow him to walk away in his prime? And if so..if you are Durant why take all of Brookyln's cap space to team up with a 33 year old Deron William's, lose your 5th year contract from OKC and see a roster that needs to be completely rebuilt when you are 29 years old? Because that is what you just pitched.

Next...be realistic. Do you really see Billy King not adding MORE contracts over the next 3 seasons that extend beyond 2016? Not one trade? Not Crash, or JJ traded in their final year? Not Hump for someone who has more than 3 years left? Or perhaps someone with less years remaining that will be traded in the next 3 years for someone who lasts beyond 2016? How about any of the Euro players? What if ONE of them is worth giving a deal to? ONE draft pick? An exception signing? This is Billy King we are talking about! I just dont see it in Brooklyn (major market) with him running the ship for the next 3 seasons. He will take on as many long term deals as people will throw at him if he believes he got the better player.

3) KD, the #2 player in the league will probably the #1 player by that time too.

Who's to say that he doesn't leave OKC in the 2016 offseason and teams up to form another juggernaut, but since we acquired Wall and his max deal, we'd be over the cap to sign him and may not be able to trade for him either.

We could potentially sign both Durant and Love in 2016 and if you let D-Will expire you have a chance to sign Rose, Lawson, Harden, Griffin, or Westbrook in 2017.

As stated, no we couldnt. The math doesnt work and that is before I even deal with King or the fact that as you pointed out...we cant offer that 5th year on the end of the contract under this new CBA. And you just let Brook Lopez walk at 28 years of age for nothing. For all the bashing we do of Lopez...realize from a supply and demand standpoint...he is sadly one of the best big men in the NBA today.

So what if Wall IS the next Westbrook or Rose as he was projected to be when the entire league desperately wanted the the consensus #1 pick. The guy I saw the second half of this seasons sure LOOKED like he was on track. I was damn impressed.

So my way....I get Wall and Nene....turn Hump into another wing who can shoot. Instantly I improved team D, team rebounding, transition possibilities and got Crash and Evans out of the starting lineup and onto the bench. I improved the starters...and the bench by making these two trades. Yes, Deron right now is better than Wall. But he is 7 years older and he is entering year 2 of his mega contract. I trade for Wall, I have another year before I have to give him that contract. So I got younger...while creating a team for the next 3 seasons that I think is better than the one we have now. At worst it is comparable.

Fast forward 3 years. The plan you proposed is about hoping one guy sees this great rebuild idea and pairs up with old man Deron in his final season as a Net. Then, he has to be convinced that like him someone else will give up year 5 on their contract to come here the following season. If we are wrong...then what? OOPS? Sorry 29 year old Durant....we thought someone else would give up 28 mil like you did to pair up with you for the next few years. Look just be patient with us...we will get some players. Tic toc tic toc....29 year old Durant becomes 32 year old Durant. Its a hard sell. Can it be done? Yes but such a long shot. Do King and Proky strike you as these type of guys? Make no other moves for the next 3 years...with an eye on 2016?

My plan. 3 years from now, I have a 25 year old Wall already signed for another 3 seasons. He has just played for my team for 3 years getting his ass kicked by LBJ and company in the playoffs. Meaning, he has paid some dues....and again...3 years from now he is only 25 years old. Lopez is 28 three years from now. And I have my 1 & 5 SET for the next 3 seasons. And now instead of clearing the decks PRAYING guys will give up cash to come here....now I have the contracts, of JJ, Crash, Nene and whoever I got for Hump to trade and build a team around them.

Isnt it possible I built something special? Two core young all stars in their prime who have playoff experience and experience playing together and LOADS of expiring contracts to trade. And certainly I built the team that has more control over our destiny and "fits" the reality of who is running this team in a major market. And I did all of that while maintaining a playoff caliber roster for the next 3 seasons. That's a plan for today WITH an eye on tomorrow. That's a savvy basketball plan.

[enetric]

John Wall is never going to be the type of player to lead a team to a championship, in my opinion. He has shown no signs of this at all.

Like I said earlier, you need a Lebron James type player to win a championship. We simply don't have one and will not, no matter what trades we make.

Well I agree to the extent that historically the best players in the league win the titles. But if we already know Deron isnt that guy at 29...why do we think he will be one at 30, 31, 32, 33? And as he gets older, he contract climbs and his trade value decreases. Why stay this course?

Would you do it for Rose and Nene? Or Westbrook and Nene? If so, then why not Wall and Nene? He is younger and there arent many guys under 23 years of age you can come up with in this league who are have higher upsides than he does.

In fact, there is not one guy to be drafted to this league since Lebron that generated more "buzz" among scouts, team execs and media than John Wall. Realize than of all NBA positions the one that tends to have to slowest growth curve is PG. Just so much more to work on than any other position.

Is it really that hard to imagine him as one of of the 5 best players in the NBA 3 years from now at the ripe old age of 25?

And if not him...come up with someone. I dont care who. Come up with a guy you think has a shot to be NEXT big thing who isnt that already. A guy you can scoop up BEFORE it happens. Because OKC isnt dealing Durant and Miami isnt dealing LBJ. So who will emerge in your mind's eye 3, 4, 5 years from now that is already in the league?

And if the next big thing isnt already in the league why worry? I cant recall a time in the last 25 years that the best player in the game won a title in his first 3 seasons in the league.

[NyCeEvO]

OK lets deal with some of this. All I ask is that you read it all and be open minded for a second....

First, lets be totally honest with ourselves. Yes, there are no guarantees Wall or ANYONE who currently IS NOT a top 3 NBA superstar ever becomes one. We know they dont come with guarantees. You scout, you project, and you hope. That's all there is. No guarantees.

So there is one LBJ. And I project he has a lock on the East and possibly the league for the next 2-3 seasons. Deron is 29 at the start of this one. Is he still developing? No. He is in his prime. How many prime years are left? Will he at some point be better than LBJ? Will he surpass him when LBJ is on the decline? Will he do so before someone else surpasses him? Is Deron even the second best star in the East right now? The honest anwer to all of those questions do not favor a team built around Deron. So why ride this out? Why not think ahead while maintaining the team to be at least as good as it is now?




So even though I wasnt targeting Wall specifically...lets use Wall since he works perfectly for what I am trying to do.

When I make my list of most promising up and coming stars in the NBA under 25 he is certainly near the top of my list. I agree with you that Wall is not a 3 point threat...but his shot is vastly improved.

Wall's shot is still bad regardless of whether it's a 2pt shot or 3pt shot. The only reason why his FG% is where it is because most of his shots come from the paint.

Here is his shot chart for the season:

He certainly is a big time scoring threat and he would add major defensive improvement. I would remind you that when Westbrook and Rose came into this league they were also suspect shooters. I strongly suggest you watch Wall now.

That's the thing...I did watch Wall a good deal when he came back from injury. Yes, he elevated his team's play for sure, but I also saw plenty of times where he doesn't bring it.

The biggest example was the very last time we played the Wizards. D-Will destroyed Wall in virtually every facet of the game and instead of rising to the challenge to try to stop D-Will's offensive barrage, Wall sunk back and let everything happen.

And if we talk about D-Will's turnovers and how he doesn't have the court vision like a CP3, Wall is even worse. In fact, he averaged 0.4 more TOPG than D-Will despite D-Will playing 3.7mpg more.

To the point about Rose and Westbrook...both of those guys went into the gym and dedicated themselves to shooting, especially Rose. Rose's form is WAY better than it was when he entered the league and now you have to honor his 3pt shooting. Westbrook might take some dumb shots, but he has good form and is a threat from deep.

Wall has been talking about improving his shot since college. Last year, he specifically said that he was going to
be in the gym fixing his shooting, and yet he still has a terrible fadeaway form and is completely unreliable from 3. You don't hear anything from Wall or Westbrook during the summer time because they're in the gym. I've always seen a lot of Wall during the summer time, because instead of being in the gym, he's out playing rec league ball with his friends and is not working on his game.

And I don't agree that he's a major upgrade defensively. Yeah, he gets more steals than D-Will but he gambles a lot on defense.

In fact, when Wall is on the court the opponents eFG% increases from .481 to .486, their assist % increases from 59.9% to 60.1% and their ORTG increases just a tad from 103.1 to 103.2.

In fact the Wizards have the same steal % regardless of whether he's on the court or off the court.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... -off/2013/

See how much impact he had on his woeful team when he got to 100% this season. It was impressive. I mean...REALLY impressive. I posted this previously:

Over the final 49 games, the Wizards outscored their opponents 95.6 to 94.5. Over the first 33 games, they were outscored 97.2 to 89.2. In other words...games Wall played vs. the ones he didnt. And lets remember that Nene was a non factor this season and that even with Wall that team stinks.

But the way you're putting it makes it seem as if everyone else on his team continued to play poorly while Wall beasted.

Of course, his talent alone will help the team, but the collection of Beal, Seraphin, Martell Webster, Ariza really helped toward the end of the season.

Before January 12th (Wall's return), here are there stats:

Beal: 13.3ppg/3.7rpg/2.6apg on 36.9FG% (31.8 3FG%)
Webster: 9.5ppg/4.0rpg/1.5apg on 40.2FG% (40.0 3FG%)
Ariza: 7.7ppg/4.9rpg/1.9apg on 33.9% FG% - He was injured for a while

After Jan.12th:
Beal: 15.0ppg/3.9rpg/2.2apg on 46.8FG% (46.6 3FG%)
Webster: 12.8ppg/3.8rpg/2.1apg on 46.1FG% (43.4 3FG%)
Ariza: 10.2ppg/4.7rpg/2.0apg on 44.9FG% (39.3 3FG%)

These guys were all key components and played much significantly better in the latter 1/2 of the season than earlier in the season.

While Wall obviously had a positive effect on his team, Ariza was injured for a while and Beal couldn't hit the broad side of the barn in the earlier part of the season. Beal finally getting more comfortable, Ariza returning from injury and having the ability to defend the opposition's primary scorer, and Webster (who I do think most of his improvement just came from being more open with Wall back) all helped to them play better down the stretch.

If we're beyond the LT, we can't do S&Ts. And on top of that S&Ts don't benefit players anymore because the team they're traded to can only give them a 4year deal. It's better for a superstar player to hit free agency than it is for them to be traded (which is what we're seeing by all of the stars since the new CBA was formed).

This part was true. If you are over the LTT you cannot do S&T deals. That is why we make the trade THIS summer. We acquire Wall and Nene for the price of Deron's contract. Then we own Wall's Bird Rights. NEXT summer he gets his new contract from US. So the S&T issue is avoided. The contract issue is avoided. See..I thought of all of this before I brought it up.

Yeah, but the S&T point was not referring to Wall at all. It was referring to the players who you said we could trade for using JJ and/or Wallace's expiring contracts. Most of the superstars are going to hit free agency rather than attempt to be traded before their deal is up. It's more attractive for the superstar guys to do that for this CBA.

Those JJ and Wallace deals are better off expiring for us in 2016 so we'll have tons of cap space to get KD and THEN you can take D-Will's big expiring for the 2nd star player. It makes more since to sign your main guy and then trade for the supporting cast if you can do that.

No, we wont. As I stated in the previous post we wont have tons of cap space or a realistic plan if we keep Deron Williams. He will still be on the books for another year making 22.3mil. Add in open roster spot cap holds, any picks or prospects we have over the next 3 years and while in theory you can allow JJ and Crash to walk away for nothing you still have the cap hold of a 28 year old Brook Lopez. Is the thought process here to allow him to walk away in his prime? And if so..if you are Durant why take all of Brookyln's cap space to team up with a 33 year old Deron William's, lose your 5th year contract from OKC and see a roster that needs to be completely rebuilt when you are 29 years old? Because that is what you just pitched.

We'd be in the exact same position with replacing D-Will with Wall, except now taking on Nene we'd have an additional cap hold to deal with in 2016. I don't see how this helps the case for Wall because if you throw Nene in there it only further complicates the issue when he becomes a free agent.

Also, no one knows what a 33yo D-Will be like. With the way many of these older stars are transitioning well into their mid-to-late 30s, I don't think the last year of a 33yo D-Will (if healthy) would stop a player from wanting to come here.

Next...be realistic. Do you really see Billy King not adding MORE contracts over the next 3 seasons that extend beyond 2016? Not one trade? Not Crash, or JJ traded in their final year? Not Hump for someone who has more than 3 years left? Or perhaps someone with less years remaining that will be traded in the next 3 years for someone who lasts beyond 2016? How about any of the Euro players? What if ONE of them is worth giving a deal to? ONE draft pick? An exception signing? This is Billy King we are talking about! I just dont see it in Brooklyn (major market) with him running the ship for the next 3 seasons. He will take on as many long term deals as people will throw at him if he believes he got the better player.

Billy King is dumb and he doesn't know how much money someone is actually worth. That said, the guy does know that he needs cap space to sign players. In fact, prior to this past offseason, he made sure that we'd have very small, easily tradeable contracts. He might not be smart in thinking about trades, but even he's shown that he knows how to make deals end around the same time.

Plus, since we're over the LTT, we can't sign players of significant worth anyway. The guys who take up the MMLE or vet.min. deals are easily tradeable.

3) KD, the #2 player in the league will probably the #1 player by that time too.

Who's to say that he doesn't leave OKC in the 2016 offseason and teams up to form another juggernaut, but since we acquired Wall and his max deal, we'd be over the cap to sign him and may not be able to trade for him either.

We could potentially sign both Durant and Love in 2016 and if you let D-Will expire you have a chance to sign Rose, Lawson, Harden, Griffin, or Westbrook in 2017.

So what if Wall IS the next Westbrook or Rose as he was projected to be when the entire league desperately wanted the the consensus #1 pick. The guy I saw the second half of this seasons sure LOOKED like he was on track. I was damn impressed.

And what if he isn't and we're stuck with a player on an even longer max contract who's not going to put in the work to get better.

And what about his injury history? He hasn't played more than 70 games a season in his young career. He already has had surgery on his knee and now you have to hope and pray that I guy that a PG who mainly scores by going to the paint and heavily relies on his speed to make a difference is going to be healthy for those years.

So my way....I get Wall and Nene....turn Hump into another wing who can shoot. Instantly I improved team D, team rebounding, transition possibilities and got Crash and Evans out of the starting lineup and onto the bench. I improved the starters...and the bench by making these two trades. Yes, Deron right now is better than Wall. But he is 7 years older and he is entering year 2 of his mega contract. I trade for Wall, I have another year before I have to give him that contract. So I got younger...while creating a team for the next 3 seasons that I think is better than the one we have now. At worst it is comparable.

Yes, we got younger by replacing D-Will with Wall, but I think most people have soured on Nene (at least I have) over the course of the season.

You said it yourself that he basically added nothing to the Wizards in the latter half of the season. When I found out that he was contemplating retirement due to all of the foot problems that he was having this past season, I no longer wanted any part of him.

If the injuries didn't pile up for him, he'd be more attractive, but right now there's no need to give up anything for him if he's going to be riding the pine for at least half a season.

Fast forward 3 years. The plan you proposed is about hoping one guy sees this great rebuild idea and pairs up with old man Deron in his final season as a Net. Then, he has to be convinced that like him someone else will give up year 5 on their contract to come here the following season. If we are wrong...then what? OOPS? Sorry 29 year old Durant....we thought someone else would give up 28 mil like you did to pair up with you for the next few years. Look just be patient with us...we will get some players. Tic toc tic toc....29 year old Durant becomes 32 year old Durant. Its a hard sell. Can it be done? Yes but such a long shot. Do King and Proky strike you as these type of guys? Make no other moves for the next 3 years...with an eye on 2016?

My plan. 3 years from now, I have a 25 year old Wall already signed for another 3 seasons. He has just played for my team for 3 years getting his ass kicked by LBJ and company in the playoffs. Meaning, he has paid some dues....and again...3 years from now he is only 25 years old. Lopez is 28 three years from now. And I have my 1 & 5 SET for the next 3 seasons. And now instead of clearing the decks PRAYING guys will give up cash to come here....now I have the contracts, of JJ, Crash, Nene and whoever I got for Hump to trade and build a team around them.

Isnt it possible I built something special? Two core young all stars in their prime who have playoff experience and experience playing together and LOADS of expiring contracts to trade. And certainly I built the team that has more control over our destiny and "fits" the reality of who is running this team in a major market. And I did all of that while maintaining a playoff caliber roster for the next 3 seasons. That's a plan for today WITH an eye on tomorrow. That's a savvy basketball plan.

The only difference between the two situations is Wall and D-Will (since I wouldn't call Nene a positive asset at this point in time).

And for as much as you reference D-Will's age, we can also reference Wall's injury history and his major knee issue and a significant setback with the same knee in early December. IF Nene stays healthy and IF Wall stays healthy and IF he improves on the areas of the game that he's still pretty raw at, yeah it makes a lot of sense.

But I don't see all of those variables working out in our favor. There's risk on both sides of the issue and if the difference is trusting Wall to improve and stay healthy vs. D-Will turning 32/33 in the latter years of his contract, the argument could go either way.

[Rollydog]

Guys...

I love the idea of letting everyone expire summer of 2016 and landing Durant. But that is far fetched in so many ways.

First off...Deron will still be here making 22 mil as he is turning 33. Next...you are all nuts if you dont think King will have us committed to even MORE salary beyond Deron for that year. No way he spends the next years without taking on a single contract that goes beyond 3 seasons. Jut not his MO.

So we will start off with about 32mil in cap holds before we even get to whatever else we have on the books. From there we are praying that Durant takes less money on the back end to come here to play with who exactly? A promise that when he is 29 years old that we will quickly rebuild the entire roster around him? Its a hard sell under this new CBA. And that is without even dealing with the fact that under this plan Lopez is simply allowed to walk away at 28 years of age.

Look...I dont care if its Wall. He was an example. And if you saw him these past few months you might be changing your tune...but that wasnt the point. My point was simply....a maxed out 29 year old superstar has no where to go but down. Not just ours. Anyone. Father time keeps moving. So? Are we a contender with this group in the LBJ era of dominance? No. So why devalue our player assets by allowing them to get deeper into their contract while their value declines?

Why not get younger while being at least as good? The trade I proposed gave us a PG who should surpass Deron within the next two years straight up. I got the PF and still retained Hump's contract to help another need area like SF.

I dont see the point in staying the course with this group. We are stuck with two big contracts. Our Center is 25 and earning his money compared to the low supply of quality bigs in the NBA right now. So who can we trade? Its obvious to me. Hump...and Deron. And for clarity I feel the need to repeat...trading a player isnt a punishment. Its about finding something you have of value that someone out there might covet enough to give you something that YOU covet. Deron and Hump have the most trade value this year of anyone on the roster.

Of course I agree with you on this, I was kind of nonplussed about the DWill trade when it happened, excited about developing Lopez and Favors with possibly getting Kyrie Irving in the draft (that would have been a team).

I also remember right before the deadline last year when it seemed like Howard was gonna opt in I poked my head into this forum and said some stuff about how Dwill didnt really do it for me and that we should ship him out for youngins and everyone was like NOOO (facepalm).

But this is the best way to get better in the NBA. Suck bad, get good picks, whenever you can exchange capspace for prospects until you get good enough to attract marquee free agents. Which is NOT our position now.

I would probably welcome a trade for a young dude like Wall but that still doesn't give us the rebuild we need.

AND the bigger problem is a trade like this is unrealistic. Unrealistic for the Wizards, unrealistic for us. A bad team like Washington isn't going to frothing at the mouth over DWill for the same reason you're aren't. His window is now, when their young guys finally develop he's going to be on the downswing. The only reason they might consider is the reason why King will absolutely not do that trade. We all know this game is really about money, markets, all that good stuff, and DWill is a player teams can capitalize on. He is our marquee player, I know Wall (or the equivalent) has a name as well but casual nets fans (the "true" fanbase, at least in terms of size) are going to be scratching their heads. So a scenario like this is very unlikely. Now if theres a team out there that is making a playoff push and has a young would be superstar (Paul George) that could maybe maybe work a BIT better in the sense Indy would give that trade consideration. But BKing is gonna pass everytime. Maybe in Jersey that would fly, not in BKN where theres tremendous pressure to capitalize.

The alternative solutions aren;t any better but at least are commercially viable. We make the best of a bad situation by trying to get better. Does it put us above the Heat or Bulls with Rose? probably not but whatre you gonna do. We'll never be favorites but if the cards fall we can be a top 4-8 team instead of an top 8-12 team like we are now.

Maybe we're one great player away. Probably more than that. But if we can't get a stud like JSmith with HPAB what if we can pull a move that gives us bench depth and a viable PF? The idea is we go to rebuilding teams and take their veteran players who are maybe a little overpaid. I'm not really committed to any of these deals but something like


Glenn Davis and Aaron Afflalo
Landry Fields and Amir Johnson
Jeff Green and Brandon Bass
Thad Young and JRich
Marcus Thornton and Jason Thompson

You get the picture. With deals like this we most likely get to keep our first rounders which will turn out to be important in 5 years if we draft right. And while we don't get the "star" many are talking about, we boost our bench in a big way taking pressure off our aging swingmen.

So that's whats next. It kind of sucks, when the goal in everyones head is a championship and we're going to have to get super lucky to contend for one, but really as fans theres nothing left. No use salivating about the past or would be futures, just a team you can root for.

[enetric]

NYC...

That was some reply and I want to say that I really appreciate all the time and effort you put into it. Respect!

A few things of course I am going to challenge.

1- I do not deny that Wall is not a good shooter. I said he improved. 3 years in the NBA there is a progression.
.409, .423, .441. A progression in ft%... .766, .789. 804. 3pt shooting is still abysmal...no question. But you do realize...HE IS 22!

2- You gave me a lot of info on the season. Wall was BAD when he first came back from injury. And that had to be when you saw him play Because the last 25 games of the year? The guy was fantastic. 23ppg/5 reb/8 ast. He shot .466/.792. About 1.5 steals and game and close to a block a game. if you were watching...there was an eye popping NOTICABLE explosion in his game.

3- And yes...those last 25 games...I have very little to say about Beal or anyone else on that team offensively. Even those numbers you game me werent all that. Also realize that as Wall drew attention made it a lot easier for those guys to get open looks. If you were watching you could see his impact on offense. His own...and his team's. His play was truly up by a wide margin.

4- I wont deal with advanced over rated stats for D. I hope you understand...but so much of that is straight BS. I watch Deron. I see a slow guy who is out of position OFTEN. I agree with your point about Wall taking some unencessary chances at times. But agian...22 years old, 3 years into the league and the guy is fast as lightning, creates TO's and clearly defensively him on the floor vs., NOT on the floor that team had a massive difference in points allowed. I did watch. I did see the hustle and energy. I did see the impact he has. He has to polish that up still. Still learning. But Deron is already on the poor side of D...and at 29 next season...it only goes down hill from here.

5- You said: "Yeah, but the S&T point was not referring to Wall at all. It was referring to the players who you said we could trade for using JJ and/or Wallace's expiring contracts. Most of the superstars are going to hit free agency rather than attempt to be traded before their deal is up. It's more attractive for the superstar guys to do that for this CBA."

I really dont think it was what you were referring to. I thought you were saying we couldnt trade for Wall because it would require an S&T. That is why I replied the way I did. That we trade for him now so that it isnt an issue. As for what you just said. What players did I say we could trade JJ or Crash for? I NEVER said anything about other superstars. I said King is going to trade those guys for the next Boozer of the world...the next JJ. That is what you get for fat expiring contracts. You get longer deals that other teams want to dump.
Overall...honestly what you just said above? Not sure what you are trying to refer to so maybe we can clarify it.

I will take a shot at it. You mention superstars. Which I do not see us getting by trade since we dont have the assets. But as for what happens with those star contracts, their teams deal them when they do not think they can re-sign them or they think its NOT worth resigning them. See Deron, Melo, etc. Some of that changes now under the new CBA (as for when to make that deal if at all)...but either way, doesnt effect us. We arent in contention for these guys unless we are giving up Deron or Lopez NOW which defeats the point you were trying to make.

6- You wrote: "We'd be in the exact same position with replacing D-Will with Wall, except now taking on Nene we'd have an additional cap hold to deal with in 2016. I don't see how this helps the case for Wall because if you throw Nene in there it only further complicates the issue when he becomes a free agent.

Also, no one knows what a 33yo D-Will be like. With the way many of these older stars are transitioning well into their mid-to-late 30s, I don't think the last year of a 33yo D-Will (if healthy) would stop a player from wanting to come here."

I dont think you understood me. I am not trying to create more cap space. I am saying you were wrong that you DONT have as much cap space as you think you do. So I am trying to spend it differently than you. Instead of letting Lopez simply walk and have 40% of the cap committed to 34 year old Deron as you try to and recruit Durant to take 25 mil less than he can get from the Thunder...I opted to deal NOW. Keep Lopez at 28 and have 25 year old Wall locked up. I think the idea that we are going to be in the recruiting market in 2016 is a pipe dream. I would love that. But I dont see it happening. Certainly not if we still have an older and much declined Deron.

And that last part? We dont know what 33 year old Deron will be???? And not stopping a guy from coming here? You arent being realistic at all on this part. On this part I call BULLSSH!$T (no offense). Younger stars want to team up with comparable age stars. You know that. Why sign with a team for vastly less cash to play with a guy heavily in his decline years? And yeah...Deron slow, often injured now....coming to camp out of shape...this isnt Kobe. Who btw as good as he is...Dwight STILL didnt want to team up with him...and yeah as good as Kobe is he IS declined. Same with Dirk. Deron is going to fade before your eyes. Just like Kidd did. Sure, Kidd could still play at a high level. But yeah watching him guard Anthony Johnson was just sad once the legs started to go. Deron couldnt guard anyone in this playoff series. Its a great indicator of what is to come.

7- You wrote: "Billy King is dumb and he doesn't know how much money someone is actually worth. That said, the guy does know that he needs cap space to sign players. In fact, prior to this past offseason, he made sure that we'd have very small, easily tradeable contracts. He might not be smart in thinking about trades, but even he's shown that he knows how to make deals end around the same time.

Plus, since we're over the LTT, we can't sign players of significant worth anyway. The guys who take up the MMLE or vet.min. deals are easily tradeable."

OK so the problem here is...we see the future very differently for this franchise. I dont mean what we want to happen. I mean what we SEE happening. It seems to me you are still thinking like NJ and not Brooklyn. I believe King will make whatever moves he can whenever he can. Bad exception signing are easy to trade? Are you sure about that? Not true. And my point to you is...for us to have major cap space you are dumping 28 year old Brook Lopez. Did you consider that? Letting him walk. Now assuming he improves and he is just entering his prime...why do that? So if we have Lopez...my point is...King will trade JJ and Crash in their final year for OTHER long term type deals teams are dumping. He will add a pick or two and take on his next albatross to put around Lopez. And if he doesnt do that...and keeps Lopez, Deron, and has a few picks and prospects laying around...add other cap holds...we wont have big cap space. As long as we keep Lopez/Deron that summer...not going to have the cap space. So all I am doing is getting AHEAD of the game. Of course I could end up wrong here...but assuming Deron plays that contract out to its end and Lopez doesnt suffer some catastrophic injury...we will not add a major free agent in the summer of 2016. I say...not going to happen.

And I think this is why we are on different sides here. I feel you are still thinking small market. I LOVED that thinking. Still do. I preached it more than anyone for years when people got excited about every single move we made or could make. Arguments from people that Troy Murphy and Outlaw were good moves. I always hated moves for the sake of them. But...I see King. I see Proky. I see Brooklyn. And I look at Dolan as the blueprint for where we are going. Not what I want...what I BELIEVE is happening here.

You rip King but I think you are denial at just where we are headed. We have a NEW IDENTITY. Filling seats matters now. And average fans....not fanatic geeks like us...but regular fans just want to hear on the news that we added someone. To them making a move like JJ was awesome. Even Crash. Right on this board I saw guys post here who thought he was still the OLD CRASH. They were stoked.

I am saying, King didnt learn a lesson there. He will still DEFEND those moves. He BELIEVES in those moves. And he will make more of them.

SO I am looking around for a guy that gets the CORE younger. Gives us a tandem that can pay dues for 3+ years while LBJ dominates so that when the time comes...the guys we have are seasoned instead of declining. 33 year old Deron? You are dreaming if you think he will lead this team anywhere by then and certainly not after that. The Heat will begin to become vulnerable....but Deron will decline even further.


8- You wrote: "And what if he isn't and we're stuck with a player on an even longer max contract who's not going to put in the work to get better.

And what about his injury history? He hasn't played more than 70 games a season in his young career. He already has had surgery on his knee and now you have to hope and pray that I guy that a PG who mainly scores by going to the paint and heavily relies on his speed to make a difference is going to be healthy for those years."

You know athletes do not come with guarantees. They are people not washing machines.

You scout, you project...you roll the dice. I project that having a guy 7 years younger who is that gifted is worth having on the books for 2 more years than the 33 year old guy. Deron at 32 will not be traded with 2 years left. If Wall is even decent with two years left on his deal...YES he will be tradeable at 27 years of age.

You are not impressed with Wall. I am. No getting around that. If you loved him we wouldnt be debating all the angles would we?

Yes, I agree he has his flaws. But he has time to develop. LOTS of time. Deron has his flaws too. But he doesnt have time to develop. This is it. The prime years of a NBA player. Once he hits the wrong side of 30 you hope he can still be great....but despite stats if you are honest you will see decline. At his absolute best he didnt have one stellar game against a Bulls team that was beat to hell. I am sorry its not going to get massively better. And I would rather take a shot on Wall being healthy at 22 than D-Chubsy Williams. The whole...playing yourself into shape gets harder as you get older.

One small thing. That whole hasnt played more than 70 games thing. He played 66 of 66 last year. Cant penalize a guy for the lock out. And if you are going to make health point in comparison....then you have to be fair and look at Deron. He hasnt played a full season in 6 years. This year was the closest only missed 4 games. In the 4 prior he missed: 11/17/6/14.

So yeah...I am willing to gamble on the 22 year old over the 29 year old. I have to ask...what is your upside with Deron? What did you see that I didnt this year and in these playoffs? You think add a Boozer for Hump and get some other coach and we beat the Heat? Healthy Bulls? Who? What is the upside as Deron turns, 30, 31, 32, 33. Are you willing to be fair or you want to pray to the hoops gods for miracles?

9- You wrote: "Yes, we got younger by replacing D-Will with Wall, but I think most people have soured on Nene (at least I have) over the course of the season.

You said it yourself that he basically added nothing to the Wizards in the latter half of the season. When I found out that he was contemplating retirement due to all of the foot problems that he was having this past season, I no longer wanted any part of him.

If the injuries didn't pile up for him, he'd be more attractive, but right now there's no need to give up anything for him if he's going to be riding the pine for at least half a season. "

Hey...I actually do not want Nene. Do you know why I started this? Because I read an entire thread arguing about what to trade Hump for. Nene was target #1 by this board and Gordon was target #2. Two guy I think are so injury prone I dont really see the point. I dont think they make us any better. But...it got me thinking. What if I could get a younger go to guy AND fix one of the forward spots our two biggest issues in the same deal...so that we can still use Hump to fix something else? Guys here like Nene more than I do...lets play with the numbers since Hump for Nene to me does absolutely nothing for us.

So I made my list of young talent. Of who I think could be special in a few years from now as the Heat begin to decline. Who can I target since I know this group wont contend behind Deron. And as I made my list, Curry, Kyrie, Wall....maybe Griffin...a few others. I asked myself....which of these guys could I see their team actually bite on Deron before his trade value is gone? Wall just jumps out at me. And those two bad big man contracts also jump out as a reason a small market team might have added incentive to make a deal. Get Okafor for all I care and play him at the 4. Dont care. But I can see the contracts match...and the goal was achieved and while I know we are going to ride Deron on the pretend train of futility these next few years...I feel its really worth the debate. Why NOT consider being proactive?

I believe fully we will not gut the roster for 2016. I believe we will restock the pond like the Knicks or Portland did for years to come...mired in mediocrity but selling tickets each year with some other new name holding up a jersey every so often at a press conference selling false hope to a crop of casual fans looking to buy tickets and merchandise and all they need is a reason. Any reason, even a false prophet.

10- And the last thing you wrote: "The only difference between the two situations is Wall and D-Will (since I wouldn't call Nene a positive asset at this point in time).

And for as much as you reference D-Will's age, we can also reference Wall's injury history and his major knee issue and a significant setback with the same knee in early December. IF Nene stays healthy and IF Wall stays healthy and IF he improves on the areas of the game that he's still pretty raw at, yeah it makes a lot of sense.

But I don't see all of those variables working out in our favor. There's risk on both sides of the issue and if the difference is trusting Wall to improve and stay healthy vs. D-Will turning 32/33 in the latter years of his contract, the argument could go either way."

I feel you are acting like Wall off one injury is Steph Curry and you are ignoring Dwill's health and maintenance of his body at 29 years of age next season DWIll is not Stockton. He is not Kobe. THEN add the 7 years.

Now any player can crap out health wise. But I dont like you over playing the health card like this. Lopez has been a far bigger injury risk in his career and you were right there with the rest of us dismissing those that made him sound like he was Bynum last summer. Wall is back. He is not Rose. Not an unknown. He is not Bynum, or Steph Curry constantly at risk. He finished the year on the biggest high of his young 3 year career. We saw 25 really impressive games. So yeah...I would take that risk over worrying Deron is going to come in 15 pounds heavy next year. And that each year playing it off will get harder.

No I dont think the scenarios are as much of a "pick em" as you made it sound. I think there are risks with all athletes. But I see no reason to worry more about 22 year old Wall who had an injury last summer than I do Lopez who didnt play for a year and half.

Hey...I do appreciate your reply. You made some fair challenges...some I challenged back that I thought you embellished for debate purposes...lol, we all do that no harm there.

And I do appreciate you acknowledging the essence of my point there at the end. That's what a good poster does...and why you have my respect.

Totally fine that you dont believe in Wall. But for me...I just ask you and everyone else here to be honest about what we should expect from Deron as the star player here. What realistically we expect to add around him for the few assets we have left. And how long is it fair to expect him to play at his career best level based on the typical NBA player and examining his healthy and work out history. I say 3 years at best...and I think those 3 years in the NBA are LEBRON'S. He might own more than that. But I think that is when a team of up and comers who have taken their lumps just as LBJ did for 8 years before his time came...same with MJ. I am trying to make the plan to be NEXT.

I say Wall...because I cant seem to come up with a prospect more regarded that I can see as a plausible trade target for the assets we have to offer.

You have a better one? I am all for it!

-E

[enetric]

Guys...

I love the idea of letting everyone expire summer of 2016 and landing Durant. But that is far fetched in so many ways.

First off...Deron will still be here making 22 mil as he is turning 33. Next...you are all nuts if you dont think King will have us committed to even MORE salary beyond Deron for that year. No way he spends the next years without taking on a single contract that goes beyond 3 seasons. Jut not his MO.

So we will start off with about 32mil in cap holds before we even get to whatever else we have on the books. From there we are praying that Durant takes less money on the back end to come here to play with who exactly? A promise that when he is 29 years old that we will quickly rebuild the entire roster around him? Its a hard sell under this new CBA. And that is without even dealing with the fact that under this plan Lopez is simply allowed to walk away at 28 years of age.

Look...I dont care if its Wall. He was an example. And if you saw him these past few months you might be changing your tune...but that wasnt the point. My point was simply....a maxed out 29 year old superstar has no where to go but down. Not just ours. Anyone. Father time keeps moving. So? Are we a contender with this group in the LBJ era of dominance? No. So why devalue our player assets by allowing them to get deeper into their contract while their value declines?

Why not get younger while being at least as good? The trade I proposed gave us a PG who should surpass Deron within the next two years straight up. I got the PF and still retained Hump's contract to help another need area like SF.

I dont see the point in staying the course with this group. We are stuck with two big contracts. Our Center is 25 and earning his money compared to the low supply of quality bigs in the NBA right now. So who can we trade? Its obvious to me. Hump...and Deron. And for clarity I feel the need to repeat...trading a player isnt a punishment. Its about finding something you have of value that someone out there might covet enough to give you something that YOU covet. Deron and Hump have the most trade value this year of anyone on the roster.

Of course I agree with you on this, I was kind of nonplussed about the DWill trade when it happened, excited about developing Lopez and Favors with possibly getting Kyrie Irving in the draft (that would have been a team).

I also remember right before the deadline last year when it seemed like Howard was gonna opt in I poked my head into this forum and said some stuff about how Dwill didnt really do it for me and that we should ship him out for youngins and everyone was like NOOO (facepalm).

But this is the best way to get better in the NBA. Suck bad, get good picks, whenever you can exchange capspace for prospects until you get good enough to attract marquee free agents. Which is NOT our position now.

I would probably welcome a trade for a young dude like Wall but that still doesn't give us the rebuild we need.

AND the bigger problem is a trade like this is unrealistic. Unrealistic for the Wizards, unrealistic for us. A bad team like Washington isn't going to frothing at the mouth over DWill for the same reason you're aren't. His window is now, when their young guys finally develop he's going to be on the downswing. The only reason they might consider is the reason why King will absolutely not do that trade. We all know this game is really about money, markets, all that good stuff, and DWill is a player teams can capitalize on. He is our marquee player, I know Wall (or the equivalent) has a name as well but casual nets fans (the "true" fanbase, at least in terms of size) are going to be scratching their heads. So a scenario like this is very unlikely. Now if theres a team out there that is making a playoff push and has a young would be superstar (Paul George) that could maybe maybe work a BIT better in the sense Indy would give that trade consideration. But BKing is gonna pass everytime. Maybe in Jersey that would fly, not in BKN where theres tremendous pressure to capitalize.

The alternative solutions aren;t any better but at least are commercially viable. We make the best of a bad situation by trying to get better. Does it put us above the Heat or Bulls with Rose? probably not but whatre you gonna do. We'll never be favorites but if the cards fall we can be a top 4-8 team instead of an top 8-12 team like we are now.

Maybe we're one great player away. Probably more than that. But if we can't get a stud like JSmith with HPAB what if we can pull a move that gives us bench depth and a viable PF? The idea is we go to rebuilding teams and take their veteran players who are maybe a little overpaid. I'm not really committed to any of these deals but something like


Glenn Davis and Aaron Afflalo
Landry Fields and Amir Johnson
Jeff Green and Brandon Bass
Thad Young and JRich
Marcus Thornton and Jason Thompson

You get the picture. With deals like this we most likely get to keep our first rounders which will turn out to be important in 5 years if we draft right. And while we don't get the "star" many are talking about, we boost our bench in a big way taking pressure off our aging swingmen.

So that's whats next. It kind of sucks, when the goal in everyones head is a championship and we're going to have to get super lucky to contend for one, but really as fans theres nothing left. No use salivating about the past or would be futures, just a team you can root for.

You are right Rolly. Its all a long shot. Part of the logic in Wall was small market and eat one of their bad contracts they they wont be able to deal later. See they have to max Wall in a year. Can they afford to have a MAx franchise player and two hard to deal contracts in Nene and Okafor? THen round out the roster?

Yeah...all still a long shot. I wouldnt make the deal talent and age wise and team direction i I was Washington either. I am just amazed how many people want to ride it out with Deron.

THis team was built all wrong. It was done in desperation after we lost out on Dwight. That is what set it all in motion. Just trying to find a way to fix it best I can.

But I know my reality can rain on the parade of hopeful fans who think "ya gotta believe" even if the rest of the basketball community is basically calling us a bunch of wusses with no sense of urgency...no marbles.

My problem is...I agree with the pundits and said it before they did.

[NyCeEvO]

E...

You and I are pretty similar in that we're probably the most "championship or bust", "slow build the right way" type of fans.

I can pull up the thread when we we first got D-Will and while most people were super-ecstatic, I was a bit reserved because I instantly felt that King overpaid for D-Will given the history of trades for discontented superstars who are on their last year or two of their deals and want out.

I've seen the same thing happen with Wallace and JJ and I've seen so many people say "Look...we went from the lottery to the playoffs, how can you complain?" And I always go back to the fact that every single big move BK makes which requires him to think independently (re-signing Lopez doesn't count cuz that was a formality) he overpays. I saw/see the different ways how we could have either assembled a better team through a more efficient and knowledgeable use of our assets or we could have created a team that is good right now while still retaining some quality assets for the future.

In whole, I don't disagree with you.

My eye is still heavily focused on the future, but for a different reason. I think that this past offseason kinda put the nail in the coffin as far as us being able to effectively reverse much of the damage that has been done by King. There's only so many overpays and poor evaluation of talent that franchise can withstand before you've reached the point where trying to go back could cost just as much as sticking with what we have and that's what I see tbh.

I see the value of going the route that you propose. I really do.

We get younger. Don't lose too much in the standings right now and should still have enough years post-LBJ domination to have a good team.

My main issue with going younger is not whoever we get back, it's more with the fact that it gives BK another excuse to give to management to say why this team hasn't performed up to par. He could just cite Wall's and Lopez use for the team's inability to take it to the next level. Right now, Proky let the blame of our regular season record and playoff performance fall on the head coach. But what happens in the next 1-2 years when a coach that BK chose still fails yet again to deliver the goods? Avery was here before BK, so he's used that to his leverage to distance himself from the past and present failures of this team. He can't do that with the next coach because that guy will be hand selected by him. If that coach can't improve us, it's on the players that BK chose.

I'm hoping that by failing to get to close to true contendership by Proky's self-imposed 2015 deadline, the inability of a coach to push us over the top, and the inevitable declining skills of Wallace and JJ will all show upper management (and finally convince them) that BK has been the problem all along.

I'm not a Wall hater, and in many ways I was surprised to see him will the Wizards to win more games towards the end of the regular season. But just as you asked me if I can see BK not trading for longer deals and foiling plans for 2016, I can't see King trading D-Will for Wall right now. As you said, the guy is way too stubborn and hard headed. They're going for the flash and $$$ while we (the geeky fans) are concerned about building a team the right way.

I heard King last week talk about improving from within and adding vet.min. deals to this team like the Knicks and Mia had done to improve their roster. I facepalmed.

He doesn't see flaws in our players. Having access to the same vet.min. type of players that MIA has access to won't launch us past them. Even if we improve, MIA has the opportunity to improve as well.

I'm not defending the 2016 FA period because I I think it's a flat out better option than what you have laid out. I'm defending 2016 because because I'm hoping and praying that the pain ends then and we decide to get a real GM who knows that there are no shortcuts to true success and we'll actually decide to do things right (similar to the way LAL has their major contracts ending before the 2014 offseason).

If we traded for Wall, it would give BK another excuse and a greater chance to crap up the long-term future by surrounding and Lopez with young players on bad contracts, and I feel like the we'd be in the same position then as we are now.

As we all can clearly see, King is not getting any smarter or better.

Even though right now, it's D-Will, JJ, Crash, and Lopez, I bet in 4 years it'll be Wall, two more bad contracts, and Lopez, which would again keep us from actually contending and from rebuilding properly. I look at 2016 as a possible 'Get out of Jail' free card, where after we miss Proky's championship by 2015, he wakes up and smells the roses that King continued to botch up everything throughout the first 5 seasons he's here.

Sadly, the main consolation that I take from being this far over the cap is the fact that BK is restricted by the CBA and by the lack of quality assets out there to cause even more damage to this franchise for the time being.

I see trading for Wall as a '6 in one, half a dozen in the other' type of situation. As Rollydog said, I don't think the Wizards nor King would do it themselves anyway but trading for younger pieces just gives BK more of an excuse to replace our current crap contracts with younger, but equally bad contracts and we'll have to wait even longer for a chance to win.

I know it's not much of an answer to your specific things, but this is the background from what I'm thinking of. To me it comes down to 'Do I want a definitive end to King in 2016 and then a true chance to rebuild or give King an excuse to stick around for a few more years and screw things up even further?'

[enetric]

Another well thought out reply NYC. And I respect what you said. It was more of an explanation than an argument....and I think in many ways it was sound.

Let me ask your opinion. Do you think that if we repeat this season or basically have 3 more years like this one where we look back and say..OK we were the new Hawks...that ownership re-ups King again?

If so shame on Proky. He said its win or bust. OK, you are going to sack 2 coaches in one year...then I hope he is willing to hold the GM as accountable.


I dont know man. I just look at 2016 and I think are we better with Lopez making 18-20mil on his next contract plus 22.3mil for a 32 year old Deron. Or, are we better off with Wall and Lopez locked up for the next wave as the Heat move towards their downward spiral.

I guess I like the idea of having two young talents who would be seasoned by then who have learned to play together.

My feeling is, King is going to F it all up either way! He will end up dealing Hump for a third bad contract. And at least one of those 3 will get traded again in 2016 for MORE salary. I think I would prefer to have a guy like Wall than Deron at that point since I dont see us having major cap room in 2016 anyway. And in the mean time, I think Wall, and a big man plus a wing brought in for Hump's contract would make us better or at least no worse than just trading Hump alone.

You know, the only true possibility I see for some cap space would be...we let JJ and Crash expire. in 2016 we do nothing but take on 1 year deals. In 2017, we let Deron expire and we hit the market with Lopez maxed out and not one else on the roster. I dont really love that idea. But that is the only one where I see us with legit cap space.

Hey, its all just talk. King wont be making that deal. Washington wont be making that deal. I just struggle with Nets fans saying they wouldnt make that deal. For me it reads like unrealistic expectations. I just dont know how anyone can look at this roster and think whatever coach we add plus whoever we can really get for Hump will make us so much better that next year we give the Heat or Bulls a run for their money. And if I were a Pacer fan reading this I would probably say OR INDIANA.

Of every Nets playoff team I have ever watched...this team had the least sense of urgency. The worst execution. I dont think I am just being harsh. I said it all year. And come playoff time...EVERY commentator out there said the same thing. NO MARBLES.

Hard to actually find the upside for the D-Will era.

[PetroNet]

For me, Lopez/Wall just isnt a combo to fringe contend with now and isnt a combo to slow build with going into 2016. i dont think either can be the second best player on a championship contender, even with their current track for improvement. I think if you have dwill in his prime and lopez, you can add to that with a star player and contend. if we could lure durant to play with those 2, we could contend IMO. im not sure you get that with lopez and wall unless you really surround that trio with a ton of excellent role players.

[PetroNet]

Of every Nets playoff team I have ever watched...this team had the least sense of urgency. The worst execution. I dont think I am just being harsh. I said it all year. And come playoff time...EVERY commentator out there said the same thing. NO MARBLES.

I agree with this, but i think it has 99.9% to do with Lopez and our front court players then it does dwill/JJ

[enetric]

Of every Nets playoff team I have ever watched...this team had the least sense of urgency. The worst execution. I dont think I am just being harsh. I said it all year. And come playoff time...EVERY commentator out there said the same thing. NO MARBLES.

I agree with this, but i think it has 99.9% to do with Lopez and our front court players then it does dwill/JJ

We disagree on that part I guess. I feel that identity of your roster comes from its go to guy. Especially if that guy has the ball in his hands to self create AND runs the plays.

His D being as bad as it is at this point is a big issue as well.

Yes, I agree with what irks you. And I can acknowledge that Lopez has his head up his butt half the time. He is way too passive far too often.

But, what I am saying is...great floor generals set the tone, the pace and elevate those around them. I am not looking for you to say...yeah OK you convinced me. Just hoping you will see merit in the point.

Bad decision making from the floor leader spreads to the rest of your guys like the flu. When the star player goes into that place that everyone in the building can see...NOW THAT'S the guy to watch...everyone around him starts to react.

[enetric]

For me, Lopez/Wall just isnt a combo to fringe contend with now and isnt a combo to slow build with going into 2016. i dont think either can be the second best player on a championship contender, even with their current track for improvement. I think if you have dwill in his prime and lopez, you can add to that with a star player and contend. if we could lure durant to play with those 2, we could contend IMO. im not sure you get that with lopez and wall unless you really surround that trio with a ton of excellent role players.

But I do not think we can lure Durant to play with those two in 3 years when Deron will be noticeably declined. And I do not see the cap space for Durant with those two making over 40 mil by then and King sure to make other moves. It wont happen.

And I do think Wall has a chance to be a top 5 player in this league someday while Lopez as many limitations as he has...IS sadly still one of the games best big men at 25. I would prefer to figure out what support players they need in 3 years then bank on the idea of Durant or bust with 32 year old Deron.

What's more, if Durant can be had....and Wall does continue to climb....more likely to attract him with a 25 year old up and coming star who has paid 6 years of dues over a 22 mil heavily declined player with one year left on his contract.

That much we know for sure. Players who do leave cash on the table to move on do so to play with guys who are of a comparable age or younger. See Dwight wanting Deron now over Kobe. Or Houston's core over Dirk. Miami.

[PetroNet]

Yes, I agree with what irks you. And I can acknowledge that Lopez has his head up his butt half the time. He is way too passive far too often.


Bad decision making from the floor leader spreads to the rest of your guys like the flu. When the star player goes into that place that everyone in the building can see...NOW THAT'S the guy to watch...everyone around him starts to react.

I agree with what you are saying, i just disagree with how much of a part it plays into our overall issues. I'm not sure there is much Deron, or any player can do that is going to make lopez into a tough player, or even a player with average toughness. my hope is that there is a coach or assistant or trainer who can get that out of him.

I also think that you may be overstating how often williams turns into that bad decision making chucker and1 type player(which he certainly DOES at times).

[enetric]

Fair enough.

Well, he will have his third Nets coach in by what should be playoff year #2.

Lets see if he comes into camp in shape this time rather than play himself into it. That will be indicator #1. Lets see how he gets along with this one and if we can see major improvements from him. If not, I think at some point my criticisms will have to be considered more seriously should we not see radical improvement. Can you support that?

[PetroNet]

But I do not think we can lure Durant to play with those two in 3 years when Deron will be noticeably declined. And I do not see the cap space for Durant with those two making over 40 mil by then and King sure to make other moves. It wont happen.

1) Addressing Durant wanting to play here - I think he would certainly find it attractive to play between dwill and lopez. not sure many teams with the ability to give him the max would have an all-star center and veteran point gaurd for him to play with. I also think it is a really large overstatement for you to predict a "noticeable decline" for a player who would be in his prime still. Even a declined williams would still be a top 10 PG, who would be an outstanding 2nd option or the leagues best 3rd option should lopez surpass him at that point. I mean, Tony Parker is 32 and coming off back to back outstanding seasons

2) I can't see any reason we wouldnt have not only Max money with williams being the only player under contract along with a cap hold for brook lopez. Even if we would be slightly over the cap to max out durant, we could easily just do a sign and trade as we'd be well under the cap and have the ability to do so.

The king being a moron point is a legit one, but i would counter by noting that with the contracts of dwill/JJ/Wallace along we are over the cap, and throwing in lopez we are over the tax. and that is for the 2014,2015, and 2016 seasons. none of those first 3 guys are realistically moveable. and lopez likely stays put. king would really have to top the wallace/JJ moves to screw up that cap space... like a dumping JJ as an expiring for josh smith with 3 years 62M left kinda thing. hopefully it will all be moot with king fired prior to then

And I do think Wall has a chance to be a top 5 player in this league someday while Lopez as many limitations as he has...IS sadly still one of the games best big men at 25. I would prefer to figure out what support players they need in 3 years then bank on the idea of Durant or bust with 32 year old Deron.

We will just have to agree to disagree on wall then. i think he becomes a perennial all-star, but i dont see him as a top 10 guy reach rose/westbrook level. obviously i could be wrong. lopez, as much as he frustrates me, is still a legit player and building block. you could do alot worse then wall/lopez, but i dont think deron at 32 and lopez is worse.

I also think the label "durant or bust" is inaccurate, as there are alot of other options in free agency that offseason and we'd be a big destination for FA's and S&T's for sure.

What's more, if Durant can be had....and Wall does continue to climb....more likely to attract him with a 25 year old up and coming star who has paid 6 years of dues over a 22 mil heavily declined player with one year left on his contract.

certainly possible... for me, i just dont think wall breaks through, i also think durant at that point will want to win now more then build to win. and i think with dwill a team would be significantly more ready to contend.

[PetroNet]

Fair enough.

Well, he will have his third Nets coach in by what should be playoff year #2.

Lets see if he comes into camp in shape this time rather than play himself into it. That will be indicator #1. Lets see how he gets along with this one and if we can see major improvements from him. If not, I think at some point my criticisms will have to be considered more seriously should we not see radical improvement. Can you support that?

Sure. this is certainly more of a 'put up or shut up' year for him. he has time to rest, he has time to get healed, he has time to get in shape, and he has time to reflect on last season.

other then some slight overall chemsitry with roster moves, he has no reason not to start next season like he finsihed this one.