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Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV

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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#601 » by stevemcqueen1 » Sat May 18, 2013 4:24 pm

theboomking wrote:Rather than Griffin, what do you guys think about Al Horford as a best case for Zeller, if he develops a better outside game? Their length and athletic measurements aren't too dissimilar, and I think their NBA roles also may not be.

http://www.nba.com/2013/news/05/17/nba- ... index.html
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Al-Horford-415/


I think there are some comparisons between their offensive skill sets. Horford isn't quite as natural an offensive player as Zeller. A tiny bit more mechanical, not as fluid and explosive an athlete IMO. But both have a finesse game based on having great touch.

Zeller is a better college player than Horford was. Horford was a pretty beefy guy too and I think a more powerful player than Zeller. But I think the main difference is the rebounding. Horford is a glass eater and that's a big part of what defines him to me. Zeller is merely a decent rebounder and I can't see him ever being the monster on the offensive glass Horford is.

The one comparison I keep coming back to with Zeller is Nene. Meh rebounder, but a contributor to team rebounding as someone who always boxes out. Fluid and quick athlete with some gracefulness. Similar length. Soft hands and soft touch. Unselfish almost to a fault. Good passer out of the post. Great running the floor. Seemingly good intangibles like Nene, really seems squeaky clean off the court.

But I think Zeller is more talented than Nene. I think he can be a better scorer and is more athletic than Nene was. Nene is, of course, a good deal more powerful right now. Zeller will get there eventually.

One of the things I think people are having trouble with Zeller is that they can't find a really clean comparison to an existing NBA player for him. Frankly, Zeller is better than a lot of the prototypes people are trying to compare him to. He's a pretty unique talent.

And I think that is true of Noel too. He's like a more talented version of Joakim Noah. So there has never been a player quite like him before.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#602 » by sfam » Sat May 18, 2013 4:33 pm

I'm just now watching the combine today so I'm obviously behind. I do like the idea of choosing clear skills over potential.

Re: McLemore, I'm not seeing the BBIQ problem but he is too small to be a SF

Re: Shabaaz, my issue is his character - the age thing and his me first attitude totally tuns me off. And while he seems pretty smart off the court but is a ball hog on the court.

I'd be very happy if we draft Zeller - the guy seems to be the best Nene-like player out there. I would be OK if we took Len, but would prefer Zeller or Bennet (Burke & Porter are gone so no need to discuss them unless we move up).
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#603 » by The Consiglieri » Sat May 18, 2013 4:43 pm

stevemcqueen1 wrote:Prediction time:

I think the top four picks in the draft will be Noel, Zeller, Burke, and McLemore. Burke and Zeller are going to go higher than people currently think. Burke is a legit #1 overall candidate. They were the two best players in the country this year and they've got definite NBA tools.

I think claims that Shabazz will fall out of the lottery are ridiculous. His stock is stable somewhere in the top ten. If Waiters can go 4, then he will go in the lottery. If I were San Antonio, I would trade up for him. I think he could go 7 to Detroit.

I think that Len will be overdrafted and probably be the highest drafted guy who disappoints. Consequently, I think we are going to be the ones to draft him.

I think Porter is going to go later than people expect. I don't think there is any chance he goes top four like people think. I think he ends up in the 6-9 range.

I think Bennett is going to drop and be a relative steal. The injury and the maturity questions are the reasons he will drop. I think he's going to be one of the top scorers from this class.

I think McCollum is going to go much higher than people are considering him right now. He'll go somewhere in the top 8 and people will be like, WTF? Then he'll score 18 or 19 PPG as a rookie and people will be like, Oh.

Don't know quite what to make of Oladipo. He should be good. But I can see him ending up being a way worse shooter than people expect. It literally would not surprise me if he ends up being the best player from the class, or a bit of a disappointment and a career role player.

I think Olynyk is going to go outside the top ten, probably at the end of the lottery or just outside and I think he won't end up being a long term starter.

Dieng is going to be a good career backup.

I think Adams is going to be overdrafted and bust. I get a bad vibe about his intangibles. Seems like a guy who has coasted on natural ability his whole life, who isn't the self starter that loves the game like some of the other top guys. Seems like he's going to get paid and then never realize his potential.

And of course, someone bizarre is going to go way higher than people expect. Happens every year. The Cavs will probably be the ones doing the reaching, and then that guy will end up actually being decent.


First off, while we agree on a lot of things, I'd be utterly shocked if Zeller went higher than 8th, really stunned is probably the better word. I expect him to go between 8 and 12. I'd argue there's a 3-5% chance that you're right on that.

The other three guys were mostly agreed upon. I think Noel's a lock to go #1 or #2 with the only caveat being.

I see the top 3 playing out along Noel, McLemore, and Burke lines. I think Noel and McLemore easily go top 3 because they are consensus best players in the draft, evaluated. Burke is the best point, and it definitely sounds like some of the bottom of the barrel squads looking for a point, will seriously consider him if their primary target is off the board (and in one case, period).

That's the big 3 in my view.

The next tier sounds like quite clearly Bennett, Porter, and Oladipo. Regardless of what some people may think here, it clearly sounds like the consensus in league circles is that Bennett is one of only three players in this draft that has a reasonable chance at being not just good, but great, at least in some aspects of the game. Porter is the one that could really fall, pending how some of the risers perform in workouts, and how they respond to the combine. I think Porter is the breath easy pick, the plug and play, and there's no wild card situation, you get yourself a competent starter, maybe above league average at his position, but if teams that are inclined to take him seriously as an option drop or rise really high in the lottery, he could fall because wild cards like Len, Rudy, etc could tempt a team w/their unusual potential.

Oladipo killed it in the combine, had a great final year, and said all the right things about why his shooting numbers improved so dramatically, he could climb to top 3.

It's after these six that things get really weird. I think anything could actually happen after in that 7-14 territory because all of the guys in that region have so many warts in their game, so many liabilities.

I honestly have no idea who we like, none, though the local press seems to have nailed what we've been interested in repeatedly in drafts, and if they're right, it's a lock we go small forward or big, Burke is off of our board in that situation.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#604 » by stevemcqueen1 » Sat May 18, 2013 4:44 pm

Dat2U wrote:The biggest concerns with Zeller...

How much stronger will he get? He got badly out-muscled by the Trevor Mbakwe of Minnesota. He got out-muscled by Syracuse's front line. Even by Butler's front line. What happens in the NBA when every team has Mbakwe sized players only much more talented?

His standing reach is not acceptable for a C. There's not one single case in the draftexpress database where a guy with an 8'10" standing reach or below became a passable C. The closest examples are Joakim Noah (8'11") Al Horford (8'10.5") and Ronny Turiaf (8'10.5"). It's passable for a PF. The PF cutoff looking at the history is about 8'9", with only a 3/4 in Thad Young breaking the mold with a 8"8".

So if he has to play PF, then his perimeter game needs to take leaps and bounds. Not just offensively, but defensively as well. The times I saw him, he struggled in rotations and closing out on shooters. I remember a Michigan game in particular where he got burned because he consistently got lost in space.


Trevor Mbakwe was 24 years old and he's a well developed bruiser. Zeller is 20 and has already made rapid strides in developing his body from last year. He'll keep getting bigger and stronger in time.

I think you're reducing him down to that standing reach number and missing the forest through the trees.

Joakim Noah's standing reach is an inch more than Zeller's. He weighs the same as Zeller. My question is, why are Zeller's numbers unacceptable for playing Center, when one of the best center's in the league are almost the same. Not only that, Noah is a dominating defensive player, one of the best defenders in the league. Having Zeller's measurables certainly hasn't held him back.

And it's worth pointing out that Zeller was an excellent defensive player. He's a complete player, has the intelligence and anticipation and athleticism to be a quality defender in the NBA. Will he be Larry Sanders or Dwight Howard? Never. But he can play great D like Nene does.

Zeller is an excellent team defender who is easily one of the best PnR defenders in the class. I don't worry about his ability to play some D in space and on the perimeter because he's smart and he's fluid and fast. And in that Michigan game you mention, he's the one who stayed in front of Trey Burke and forced the miss on the final play to seal the win.

He's got a fantastic motor too, I don't see a problem with his ability to close out on shooters.

I think you're nitpicking Zeller.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#605 » by Dark Faze » Sat May 18, 2013 4:45 pm

For all the crapI love to give Shabazz he is basically Harrison Barnes without the ability to play stretch 4 and being a little less willing to pass. I don't know if that's horrible or pretty good. People loved Barnes in the playoffs so IDK.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#606 » by Nivek » Sat May 18, 2013 5:09 pm

Dark Faze wrote:For all the crapI love to give Shabazz he is basically Harrison Barnes without the ability to play stretch 4 and being a little less willing to pass. I don't know if that's horrible or pretty good. People loved Barnes in the playoffs so IDK.


Fan reactions are interesting. Folks are losing their minds over Barnes' playoff performance, and he hasn't even played all that well. In his 12 playoff games, he has 3-4 very good games, 3-4 very bad ones, and then ho-hum gamea. He played better in the post-season than he did in the regular season, but that's low bar. His regular season was the stuff of Omri Casspi.

Barnes' potential is obvious, but his platoff performance is being significantly overrated. And Muhammad doesn't look as good a prospect as Barnes did.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#607 » by hands11 » Sat May 18, 2013 5:59 pm

Dat2U wrote:The biggest concerns with Zeller...

How much stronger will he get? He got badly out-muscled by the Trevor Mbakwe of Minnesota. He got out-muscled by Syracuse's front line. Even by Butler's front line. What happens in the NBA when every team has Mbakwe sized players only much more talented?

His standing reach is not acceptable for a C. There's not one single case in the draftexpress database where a guy with an 8'10" standing reach or below became a passable C. The closest examples are Joakim Noah (8'11") Al Horford (8'10.5") and Ronny Turiaf (8'10.5"). It's passable for a PF. The PF cutoff looking at the history is about 8'9", with only a 3/4 in Thad Young breaking the mold with a 8"8".

So if he has to play PF, then his perimeter game needs to take leaps and bounds. Not just offensively, but defensively as well. The times I saw him, he struggled in rotations and closing out on shooters. I remember a Michigan game in particular where he got burned because he consistently got lost in space.


Exactly. Not a center and now we have to evaluate him on being a PF and we don't have the data. I never liked Zeller as a pick over better choices and nothing has changed. Blake Griffin comparisons are laughable. Come on now.

And while Gobert's measurement as amazing which makes for interesting chatter, we always knew he was long. Nothing big picture for me has changed. He is a bean pole prospect. I have zero interest in a player like that. We need a strong post defender of the future. Not interesting in Manute Bol v2.0 I know that isn't an exact comparison but generally speaking, close enough.

My early prospect are still my top prospects

VO, Otto, CJM with the later addition of Len, Dieng, Muscala, Erik Murphy. Withey but I don't see us picking him. And of course the real Pierre.

Burke will be good but not a good fit. He is a starting PG for someone. McLemore has all the hops and shot but overvalued because he has no handles. Just something missing for me to get overly excited. I think he will be a mechanical player.

Wolter would be solid but if they fill other wholes, I think a vet PG over Pierre or Wolter might work better though I really liked the idea of Pierre to help match other small fast PGs.

And Ryan Kelly and Curry. More Ryan though.

And no to Zeller, Bennett and Shabazz. Kelly O is overrated at his slot give other S4s later. Shabazz could rise. It has been all bad press for him. Maybe he can turn it around.

Adams is someone I wanted to learn more about. I got a bad first impression of him from the only interview I saw, but it was only one interview. Also wanted to see him playing more.

Schroeder as a 19 year old Rondo, wide shoulders, big hands is interesting as prospect. But a project for sure.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#608 » by hands11 » Sat May 18, 2013 6:12 pm

stevemcqueen1 wrote:
theboomking wrote:Rather than Griffin, what do you guys think about Al Horford as a best case for Zeller, if he develops a better outside game? Their length and athletic measurements aren't too dissimilar, and I think their NBA roles also may not be.

http://www.nba.com/2013/news/05/17/nba- ... index.html
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Al-Horford-415/


I think there are some comparisons between their offensive skill sets. Horford isn't quite as natural an offensive player as Zeller. A tiny bit more mechanical, not as fluid and explosive an athlete IMO. But both have a finesse game based on having great touch.

Zeller is a better college player than Horford was. Horford was a pretty beefy guy too and I think a more powerful player than Zeller. But I think the main difference is the rebounding. Horford is a glass eater and that's a big part of what defines him to me. Zeller is merely a decent rebounder and I can't see him ever being the monster on the offensive glass Horford is.

The one comparison I keep coming back to with Zeller is Nene. Meh rebounder, but a contributor to team rebounding as someone who always boxes out. Fluid and quick athlete with some gracefulness. Similar length. Soft hands and soft touch. Unselfish almost to a fault. Good passer out of the post. Great running the floor. Seemingly good intangibles like Nene, really seems squeaky clean off the court.

But I think Zeller is more talented than Nene. I think he can be a better scorer and is more athletic than Nene was. Nene is, of course, a good deal more powerful right now. Zeller will get there eventually.

One of the things I think people are having trouble with Zeller is that they can't find a really clean comparison to an existing NBA player for him. Frankly, Zeller is better than a lot of the prototypes people are trying to compare him to. He's a pretty unique talent.


And I think that is true of Noel too. He's like a more talented version of Joakim Noah. So there has never been a player quite like him before.


Wow. Not seeing it. But hey, if you are right, I will man up and eat the crow. He could develop into a decent player but not a top talent. Zero All Star appearances. But that is probably true of a lot of players in this draft. I see more of a taller skinnier Tyler Hansbrough. Not Blake or Nene.

I saw the tape on him and for the life of me I don't see his leaping ability or a game I think will translate. The one thing I saw in tape that matches his combine numbers is him running the floor. Thats about it. Well Ves could run the floor. That alone doesn't impress me.

If he really lucky, he will become Juwan Howard.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#609 » by hands11 » Sat May 18, 2013 6:24 pm

Dark Faze wrote:For all the crapI love to give Shabazz he is basically Harrison Barnes without the ability to play stretch 4 and being a little less willing to pass. I don't know if that's horrible or pretty good. People loved Barnes in the playoffs so IDK.


They are about as opposite as you can get personality wise and how they approach the game.

And Barnes is an really good athlete. And he was put in a perfect role to highlight his skills.

Shabazz is more like a Harden type without the ability or willingness to pass. If any comps are made on Shabbazz, I think comparing his skills to Harden are a good place to start. Not Barnes.

Looks like Tony Snell is going to rise in the draft charts. What a nice build on this young man. Wide shoulders. Athletic build. G Wallace build to him. Good shooter. Questionable motor though.

Wow, they just asked the question, what the big difference between Deshuan Thomas and Shabazz.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#610 » by McGully Culkin » Sat May 18, 2013 6:28 pm

Zeller better than Nene?????!!!?????

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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#611 » by theboomking » Sat May 18, 2013 6:36 pm

I also don't see the Zeller/Nene comp. Nene is as strong as a bull and built a lot of his offensive game on having an elite 1st step.

And Shabazz as a comp to Harden? Really? I just don;t see it.

As for the prediction that we are going to win the 3rd pick...who do guys think we would choose there? Not who would you want, but who do you think Ernie would take?
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#612 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Sat May 18, 2013 6:37 pm

Adams has definitely moved up my board after seeing this. At 19 with his size, defense, willingness to bang, and seeing the offensive skills. He is strong, body is NBA ready now, and he has as much upside as guys like Len & Noel who have development & health issues.

Also Zeller has moved up, while Olynyk has moved down IMO.

This is how my Wizards board is looking:

1. Porter
2. Adams
3. Len
4. Bennett
5. Zeller
6. McCollum


2nd round:

1. Green
2. Muscala
3. Murphy
4. Hardaway Jr
5. Thomas
6. Southerland
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#613 » by hands11 » Sat May 18, 2013 6:47 pm

theboomking wrote:I also don't see the Zeller/Nene comp. Nene is as strong as a bull and built a lot of his offensive game on having an elite 1st step.

And Shabazz as a comp to Harden? Really? I just don;t see it.

As for the prediction that we are going to win the 3rd pick...who do guys think we would choose there? Not who would you want, but who do you think Ernie would take?


You mean besides size, position, left hand and scoring mentality ?

Its better than comparing him to Barnes. That was my point. I said it was a better place to start then Barnes.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#614 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Sat May 18, 2013 6:47 pm

I also like Iverson in 2nd round if we don't take a center in the 1st. Looks like a solid 7 footer who bangs, has some skill, as an Okafor backup.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#615 » by AFM » Sat May 18, 2013 6:48 pm

Shabazz as a poor man's Harden? Maybe. Right now that's a bit of a stretch. If you take away Harden's ability to pass and drive then yes.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#616 » by Dark Faze » Sat May 18, 2013 6:52 pm

There's also Howland factor. Everyone seems to thrive after leaving his system.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#617 » by hands11 » Sat May 18, 2013 6:54 pm

Rafael122 wrote:
hands11 wrote:
Rafael122 wrote:Odds that Noel drops? Measurements checked out, but he weighs 206 pounds, might not play until Christmas and even then you wonder if he's in shape and has bulked up a bit. The only reason why a team would take him #1 overall is to help the tank for the '14 draft. Maybe I'm being too optimistic and he stays in the top 3, but guys like Oladipo, Burke, Adams, Gobert killed it in the draft combine.


Might be smart for the Bobcats the do that. Or would they back Burke ?


From an organization standpoint, why would the Bobcats do it. They have no coach, what person would take this job knowing they're in for a 50 loss season and your top pick is going to be out for the better part of the season?


Oh, I don't know...

Ask the guys MCing the draft combine who just said Cats, Cleveland and Orlando might want to do this and double dip for the 2014 draft and how they talked to some GMs that said they might want to do this.

They are tearing Noel up as a #1. Say he is 4-5 years out. He is going to get bullied in the NBA. Talked about how Davis had a lot more talent and he didn't even play center this year because he would be pushed around there. Which is what I was saying predraft last year. I didn't realize a team would play him at PF. Guess I missed that. Can't do that with Noel.

I haven't been a fan of Bennett, but I could even see a team swinging at him there over Noel. Crap shoot for #1 this year. For me, I would go Burke, Porter, Bennett, or McLemore over Noel. Unless I was going for the double dip approach with Len or Noel.

Rudy Gobert projecting as a project PF. That makes more sense to me than center. If that is the case, I think more teams might take a chance on him.

Zeller says he can shoot from outside but he isn't participating in the drills to show it. Man, feels like they are really trying to sell some snake oil with Zeller. He better prove he has that outside shot before the draft. Still got him as the biggest bust of the top picks in the draft. His agent is doing a great job of keeping his value high by highlighting his strengths while hiding what are most likely his weakness. If he is going to be a PF instead, I want to see the PF skills on display.

So the center class is getting shorter with Zeller and Gobert projected at PFs.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#618 » by DCZards » Sat May 18, 2013 7:23 pm

I've been for the Zards drafting a big...and Len has been my #1 target, assuming Noel is gone. But after watching the athleticism that Zeller often displayed at Indy and then seeing his numbers at the combine, I'm leaning to him over Len.

I see Zeller becoming an above average shooting PF with the ability to consistently knock down the 15-18 footer. And with Wall handling the ball, Zeller will get a lot of those kind of open looks, just like Okafor did last season. Zeller will also be able to run the court with Wall, Beal and whoever is playing SF. I also expect Zeller to get physically stronger, considerably.

My questions about Zeller have to do with his rebounding and shotblocking, which were Len's strengths and the main reason I've been on his bandwagon. And Zeller does struggle against length, but, at the same time, he could be tough cover for other PFs because of his athleticism.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#619 » by stevemcqueen1 » Sat May 18, 2013 7:32 pm

theboomking wrote:I also don't see the Zeller/Nene comp. Nene is as strong as a bull and built a lot of his offensive game on having an elite 1st step.

And Shabazz as a comp to Harden? Really? I just don;t see it.

As for the prediction that we are going to win the 3rd pick...who do guys think we would choose there? Not who would you want, but who do you think Ernie would take?


The size and strength differential between Zeller and Nene is a difference. But Zeller is going to get bigger and stronger and I think he'll eventually settle into a 245-250 range, have a similar body to Nene.

Zeller's first step is probably about as good as young Nene's and he probably runs the floor better than Nene did. Better leaper than Nene too. Zeller blows by defenders just like Nene. Zeller is a top notch athlete for a 7 footer.

I think they are way more alike than different, particularly when you start isolating individual skills and strengths they share.
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Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV 

Post#620 » by stevemcqueen1 » Sat May 18, 2013 7:38 pm

AFM wrote:Shabazz as a poor man's Harden? Maybe. Right now that's a bit of a stretch. If you take away Harden's ability to pass and drive then yes.


He's got a very similar body to Harden.

Also worth pointing out that Harden had a very weak off hand and was totally dependent on going left too when he got drafted.

The playmaking and the demeanor are big differences. Bazz is an alpha scorer whereas Harden is fully capable of blending in and facilitating. Bazz has more of a front court mentality too, much more comfortable posting up and he likes to get into the paint as much as he can whereas Harden is much more of a true guard.

None of the comparisons are going to be clean. But there are a ton of similarities between Bazz and Harden.

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