Series Thread: Rays (55-41) @ Jays (45-49) Jul 19-21

[Ado05]

At least they made it exciting at the end

[youreachiteach]

If things stay the same, Santoki, I agree with you. You're right about Cano--I just miss Alomar so much. In my opinion, he was the offensive and defensive linchpin of the championship teams. Cano will not be let go by the Yankees--certainly to us.

I don't agree that nothing can be done abou t it, however. The Rays have had superior pitching, yes, but not this year. This year, they were missing some of their best pitchers but still kept themselves competitive until they came back. I know we don't have a Will Myers to insert in the lineup (or to trade for), but can't we make a few low cost moves to improve the d and the OBP on this team?

AA has his work cut out, but I think he still has a shot to improve the team's fortunes.

[youreachiteach]

I'm aware of Gose's struggles (I've been following the minor league thread)...We have no one with his skillset, though.

You're probably right, keeping Rasmus is necessary unless Gose blows it up magically for the rest of this year (and even then, replacing Melky would be better).

In any event, if Reyes is moved to second, we need an elite defensive SS, an elite defensive catcher, and at least one more upper tier starter.

Good luck, AA.

[Randle McMurphy]

Even if this season went pretty well, unless Rogers was willing to authorize a jump to ~$150m, it'd be tough to improve on what we have.

they owe it to the fans who have come out in droves this season (31.7k/game compared to 26k/game last season) to to watch another mediocre product on the field, buying stupidly overpriced beer and food, to pump it up another 20-25m to try and get better. i mean, the worst record coming out of the ASB since 2004, yet they averaged nearly 40k for each of the last 3 games. granted, they did an excellent job with the hype machine (though 'stadium love' was a horrible, horrible choice for a promo spot), and a lot of tickets were purchased before the season even started, but despite the losing record, there are still lines at the box office and it's evident the support for the team is greater than at any point in the last 19 years.

attendance will likely dwindle as the season winds down -- but that has to do with crappy baseball. imagine if this season did go well, 35k a night and 3m attendees for the season would've been a foregone conclusion. boosting the payroll and adding more talent would only sustain these figures, or so we hope. it would be extremely disappointing if we went into 2014 with a lower payroll but i guess it wouldn't be all that surprising.

Whenever Rogers has boosted payroll in the past, it's only been temporary and they've followed it up with significant cuts. I can't imagine this poor season will help with changing that trend.

[Geddy]

Plus if they ever take a hit financially on the business side of things you know they'll make cuts across the board.

[Anatomize]

Ugh...

3-11 in July..

[Hoopstarr]

You couldn't just take my word for it?
viewtopic.php?p=33632343#p33632343

Never said I didn't, just said I didn't remember. The post you've cited there indicates mixed feelings on your part about the deal (you liked the players but not the contracts) while also referencing a desire for the team to continue to add to make the Marlins deal matter. You may not have liked Dickey much, but that's exactly what they did in acquiring him. You can't exactly have asked for more of an impact player addition to give the Marlins deal meaning (at least on paper) than a guy who had been one of the best starters in baseball over the past three seasons.

Yea dude, those were my immediate thoughts after the biggest trade in team history. You don't have to pick apart every word. Thoughts evolve.

Expressing your doubts about the deals is one thing. We all had them. Trying to suggest that the moves never had a chance of working out or that they were doomed to failure is quite another.

It's a good thing I never suggested that.

[Santoki]

Ugh...

3-11 in July..

And now we're caught in that horrible place much like the Raptors. We can't tank because people want to evaluate what we have going forward.

[Randle McMurphy]

Yea dude, those were my immediate thoughts after the biggest trade in team history. You don't have to pick apart every word.

Just noting that you had mixed feelings about it (although you liked the players and believed they would make a major impact, it seems) and that the Jays followed up that trade by doing basically what you wanted them to do in adding another significant piece. It just may not have been the one specifically you had in mind (although the Jays certainly would have been hard-pressed to find a better player on paper to add than Dickey).

Thoughts evolve.

Often with the benefit of hindsight, yes.

It's a good thing I never suggested that.

Right, you only questioned how those deals were supposed to put the team over the top and asked why AA would go all-in for a team nothing close to a winner (as if the situation/deals had little to no chance of working out). Quite the difference there.

[Randle McMurphy]

Ugh...

3-11 in July..

And now we're caught in that horrible place much like the Raptors. We can't tank because people want to evaluate what we have going forward.

The Jays were far closer to the Raptors' situation when they weren't trying to win and were aspiring to a .500 record each year while wasting the production of the few elite players they had (which you could call at least the last 4 seasons before this one). Say what you want about their attempt to win in 2013, but at least they gave it a real shot this year. Trying and failing is better than the monotonous mediocrity that comes with never trying at all.

[Hoopstarr]

Just noting that you had mixed feelings about it (although you liked the players and believed they would make a major impact, it seems) and that the Jays followed up that trade by doing basically what you wanted them to do in adding another significant piece. It just may not have been the one specifically you had in mind (although the Jays certainly would have been hard-pressed to find a better player on paper to add than Dickey).

Yea, again, mixed and unformed thoughts right after I heard the news. Do you make up your mind about something and then try to cram everything that comes later into that original stance? Never mind, that's ALL you do. Your usual bullshitting over semantics routine is not gonna work on me.

Often with the benefit of hindsight, yes.

No. Stop trying to pin this on "hindsight". "Thoughts evolve" means "as I thought about more about it, I liked it even less". I came into the season not liking the off season.

Right, you only questioned how those deals were supposed to put the team over the top and asked why AA would go all-in for a team nothing close to a winner (as if the situation/deals had little to no chance of working out). Quite the difference there.

Those are not mutually exclusive. The moves were not going to easily put us over the top like most thought--the names were big, but closer inspection showed their significant negatives (it was a fire sale, after all; look at what happened to the Dodgers)--but it didn't "doom us to failure either" in the 60-80 win sense. It did doom us to a make or break team for the next couple years and predictably, imo, they fell on the break side.

[Randle McMurphy]

Yea, again, mixed and unformed thoughts right after I heard the news. Do you make up your mind about something and then try to cram everything that comes later into that original stance? Never mind, that's ALL you do. Your usual bullshitting over semantics routine is not gonna work on me.

It's just a little odd that the post you used to cite your displeasure with the deal involved you talking about how you liked the players involved and how you would "shut up" if they added onto it (which they did a few weeks when they added one of the better pitchers in baseball between 2010-2012).

If you changed your mind on those things and railed against them elsewhere, that's fine. But that post just didn't exactly read like somebody who hated the offseason and thought it made absolutely no sense for AA to make the moves he did.

The moves were not going to easily put us over the top like most thought--the names were big, but closer inspection showed their significant negatives (it was a fire sale, after all; look at what happened to the Dodgers)--but it didn't "doom us to failure either" in the 60-80 win sense.

This is still coming off like hindsight-based reasoning. If what you're saying was such an obvious fact, objective sabermetric analysts of the sport with no ties to the Jays wouldn't have liked the moves or predicted they would make the playoffs because of them. The fact is that, despite the risks involved, the talent upgrades made the Jays a contender on paper. Trying to suggest they didn't is a bit of revisionism.

It did doom us to a make or break team for the next couple years and predictably, imo, they fell on the break side.

It could be worse. If the Jays didn't make moves like this to try to win, their other offseason options were a rebuild over an extended multi-year period or far more likely (as it's hard to envision the Jays trading away guys like Bautista/EE), the usual treadmill of mediocrity.