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Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model

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Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#1 » by Jamaaliver » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:41 pm

In looking at the current state of team-building in the NBA, it is clear that the idea for most teams is to follow the path taken by the Rockets without ending up like the Mavericks.

The Hawks, as they stand, will be competitive, and with good health, will be a playoff team in the East. The hope is that if they’re in the arena enough times, and have enough desirable assets on hand, the Hawks can become Rockets East.

They’re a team that, on paper, should not experience a very big drop-off from last year. But when it comes time for Ferry to pick up the phone and gauge the trade and free-agent markets, the Hawks will be in a much better position to make a franchise-changing blockbuster move.


http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2013-08-20/danny-ferry-atlanta-hawks-news-roster-nba-free-agency-rockets-mavs-josh-smith
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#2 » by Jamaaliver » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:51 pm

I definitely agree with this strategy for a rebuild. Prep for the future without becoming completely terrible. And with the new CBA, there should be more and more young players that get cast aside due to the economics of it all.

It's funny, we have a really good supporting cast, we just need an All Star SF or Center to make us a contender. Hopefully, we end up with the bargaining chips to acquire one.

“We’re well-positioned for many reasons,” Ferry told Sporting News in a phone interview. “We have good players who will work hard and will be very competitive this year. We have salary-cap flexibility this year, with some space, but also space going forward. We have all our draft choices going forward as well. We have the opportunity to be competitive, but to continue to build on what we’re doing.”
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#3 » by PandaKidd » Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:17 pm

Not tanking doe

/Tcorbin
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#4 » by parson » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:29 am

The article doesn't extol the virtues of tanking but, rather, "cap flexibility and tangible assets."

If Morey had really wanted to tank, he wouldn't have gambled so much on Lin and Asik. Most tanking teams know that first-rate losing requires having no PG (guarantor of offense) and no Center (guarantor of defense) on the team.
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#5 » by theatlfan » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:13 pm

parson wrote:The article doesn't extol the virtues of tanking but, rather, "cap flexibility and tangible assets."

If Morey had really wanted to tank, he wouldn't have gambled so much on Lin and Asik. Most tanking teams know that first-rate losing requires having no PG (guarantor of offense) and no Center (guarantor of defense) on the team.
One thing to note on Morey though was that many thought he was about to be officially on the hot seat up until the Harden trade went down. He had been at the helm of the team for 6 seasons and had taken a team that was a 1st round out in the playoffs the year before he got there and had become a perennial 9-10 team in the West as per the previous 3 seasons.

I'm not saying that the acquisitions of Lin and Asik were complete desperation moves, but I do think he was feeling some heat when he made those moves. You don't dig that deep into the rulebook unless you are looking for an edge that you don't think you have otherwise.
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#6 » by Jamaaliver » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:38 am

You guys have any thoughts on what type of young talent we might swindle from another team, a la Houston with Harden?

Perhaps Joakim from Chicago, Greg Monroe from Detroit, Derrick Favors from Utah. Or Klay Thompson. Or Bradley Beals.

Thoughts? Anyone else?
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#7 » by parson » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:42 am

Noah might have been possible before they lost Asik but not now. Monroe may be available in half a year. UTAH fans are in love with Favors' potential -even now. Asking for Beals could get you shot by WASH fans.

So maybe Monroe soon.

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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#8 » by theatlfan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:40 am

Jamaaliver wrote:You guys have any thoughts on what type of young talent we might swindle from another team, a la Houston with Harden?

Perhaps Joakim from Chicago, Greg Monroe from Detroit, Derrick Favors from Utah. Or Klay Thompson. Or Bradley Beals.

Thoughts? Anyone else?
Harden was a very special case. Let's face it: how many times is a recent top-3 overall pick who is still on his rookie contract and isn't a bust not the starter on his team? H3ll, how many times does this happen when the pick *is* a bust? The only 2 former top-3 picks still on their rookie contract and weren't starters last season I see are Enes Kanter who should start this season, Derrick Williams who's looking more and more like a bust (Thabeet would also place here, but he was cut and not on a rookie contract).

Still though, if you're looking for something similar, I think the one guy that could pop free on this list under the current team makeups is Monroe. With Drummond and Smoove on the team, something has to give and Monroe could be the odd man out. This scenario isn't likely, just possible, and even in the event it did happen, he wouldn't be dealt until next off-season at the earliest.

DeMarcus Cousins is another name that has been tossed about in the rumor mill. There's no arguing the talent is there, but is the person you want to build around?

Next off-season is when things would change and the scenarios could become really interesting. The '14 draft has been talked about for-seemingly-ever now (even before Wiggins reclassified) and teams will be making adjustments on the fly once that happens and they know what they have. After that draft is when the scenario will get exciting.

Even so, the one guy who I look around and think is the most likely to fall in line with Harden as a guy whose stats could go way up with more Usage based on what he was able to do as a #2/3 option is (drumroll) Al Horford. He's still somewhat young @ 27 and has had some nice seasons already with some very good efficiency numbers (not out of sight like Harden's were, but nice and against 1st teamers), but has never had a Usage% over 20 until last season, and even then, 21.8% isn't that of a #1 guy. At last year's pace, Horford would have been a 20/10 guy with another 3-4 shots per game. Now, kick in the fact he should have some more space around the basket without Smoove around. We also might have a PG who can "gift" him another handful of shots under the basket without anyone around him. Yeah, you get the idea.
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#9 » by Jamaaliver » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:22 pm

theatlfan wrote:Harden was a very special case


Agreed, but there are a few young teams with at least three young lottery picks on the roster. At some point these teams might need to trade a young stud for a vet or for draft picks. Hopefully we can be there to pick up the pieces.

Cleveland, Washington and Charlotte come to mind.

Golden State is approaching that point as well.

HELL, MIL just turned one of their Free Agents into Brandon Knight. That should have been us with Teague...
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#10 » by theatlfan » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:03 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
theatlfan wrote:Harden was a very special case


Agreed, but there are a few young teams with at least three young lottery picks on the roster. At some point these teams might need to trade a young stud for a vet or for draft picks. Hopefully we can be there to pick up the pieces.

Cleveland, Washington and Charlotte come to mind.

Golden State is approaching that point as well.

HELL, MIL just turned one of their Free Agents into Brandon Knight. That should have been us with Teague...
One BIG thing to note here is that there is a large difference between a top 3 pick and a lottery pick. The expectation of a top 3 pick is a star or near star type player. Once you get past the top 5 to 10, the expectation is closer to an OK starter/good bench player. Sure, some drafts raise the expectation (some would argue that you should expect a star with pick 7 or 8 next year; some would say that you shouldn't expect to land a star with even the #1 pick this year) and there are kids who outperform the expectation all the time (for failures, Marvin is hard to overlook; for all his flaws, Smoove was a smashing success as the 17th overall pick). So, let's not get bent all out of shape that MIL landed Brandon Knight in the Jennings SNT deal - more likely DET figured that he was at best the backup guy that his draft slot suggests he should be and was perfectly fine with shipping him for someone they saw as a starter.

The next point is that I can't count someone as a star until it's proven. Sure, we can say that CLE has 2 former #1's and #4's, but the thing is that, outside of Irving who is a star already, we don't know about any of the rest. I like Waiters and think he could be a star, but he ain't quite there yet (although we should note that his numbers compare somewhat favorably to Harden's over their rookie season). OTOH, I have some serious doubts that either Bennett (has been called "soft" and I already referenced the well-documented ?'s in regards to this year's draft) or Thompson (has the athletic ability but hasn't really put it together to take the step to consistently competent starter - so forth star) will ever develop as anything more than a borderline starter type.

That's part of the "special case" that Harden was in. Not only was he a top-3 pick, but he was on a team where the other top picks (Durant @ 2; Westbrook @ 4) had already panned out very nicely for OKC. Will that happen CLE, WASH, CHAR, or even GSW? Even if it does, will that team have such a hard line against going into the LT that they'll be thinking if dealing one of those guys instead of going for it? If things stand how they are, people won't be pointing at OKC as proof that you should trade the 3rd star, but as a warning against it.
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#11 » by parson » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:46 am

One major problem with the Rockets' model is its failure rate due to attrition. Remember Billy Knight? His plan was similiar: to acquire talent - no matter the position - for the purpose of trading for what he really needed. That's the biggest reason he drafted so many forwards - he didn't care if they all played the same position.

We all saw that plan fail because, when you're the team trying to start a deal, you never get equal value back, so we never made those needed trades to balance out the roster.

That means, in the HOU model, you acquire talent and then sit and wait for someone to need to make a trade with you, someone who just happens to have what you need.
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#12 » by Durins Baynes » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:14 am

The Hawks are using the Spurs method. Their GM is an ex-Spur (one of 6 around the NBA), and their coach is an ex-Spur (lost track of how many of those are around). The Rockets "plan" and the Spurs plan are at odds, and I know which one I'd rather be following.

Morey gets a lot of praise as some kind of genius, but he's actually been very lucky. He inherited a very good team, made marginal changes which were mostly good, then took too long to pull the trigger on the rebuild, and never fully committed to it. He spent 3 years in mediocrity, before lucking into Harden, and then massively lucking into Dwight. The problem with what Morey did in collecting (so so) assets and continuing to try and "win" (but finishing 9th) were the following:
1) If Morey had been allowed to get Pau Gasol, as he was a Stern veto away from, it blows up in his face. He no longer has the assets to get Harden, and certainly isn't getting Dwight. I know Morey fans say he'd have gotten them anyway, but that's silly- he'd have already blown his load. With Pau the Rockets make the playoffs 1-2 times, then drop out of the playoffs and have nothing to show for their 3 years of mediocrity- they're right back where they started.
2) There has only ever been one guy like Harden on the trade block in the history of the modern CBA's (so post 99 basically). By this I mean, there has only ever been one guy who was a) a young star, b) was a fairly safe bet, c) was on a rookie contract which could be matched, and d) was on a team who wanted to keep him, but couldn't because ownership couldn't afford it. You can't plan for that, because it's only ever happened once. Morey lucked into a unique situation, and then lucked out even further when a bunch of other teams who the Thunder preferred to trade with all (stupidly) said no. The Bobcats said no (for the #2 pick), the Wizards said no (for the #3 pick), the Warriors said no (for a trade based around Klay), etc. Your team shouldn't "plan" for something so unlikely to happen, because it relies on too many variables outside your control (which almost surely won't happen- but in this one case did), and there's only 1 Harden, so everyone who doesn't get him did it for nothing. Not a good plan.
3) Dwight was even luckier. If Dwight doesn't do something so stupid and unpredictable as opt into his final contract year, he's a Net. If the Lakers don't screw up huge, Dwight is a Laker still.

If I knew the lotto numbers, I'd take them, but I'd never build a team on the assumption I would win the lotto repeatedly.

The Spurs model differs depending on the circumstances of the team, but one constant is that you stick to a direction that makes sense, you don't half ass it like Morey did (being stuck in mediocrity and hoping he'd luck out of it). If you think you can move into being a contender with your existing pieces and realistic moves, you do that (like the Spurs are doing). If you think you can't, you blow it up and stick to that (like the Magic/Jazz are doing, and like the Thunder did). The Pelicans were doing plan 2, and are now onto plan 1. The Hawks are in a different place, it sounds like Ferry has instructions from ownership to win now, and he's fine with that. That won't win a title, but in the East Ferry can make internal moves around the current core to put together a team that wins 50-55 games a year within 2 years. Given the Hawks financial situation and low ticket sales, I can see why that makes sense. They tried for the unlikely Free Agent home run, it didn't pay out, now they're going to give this 2 years, and re-evaluate then whether to pull the plug. As plans go it's decent enough. It also incorporates the other aspects you tend to see in Spur front offices (change the team character, make sure everyone knows their role, get rid of people who aren't a fit for it, revamp the scouting division, work more with your minor league team, keep everything in-house, etc).

Their draft picks so far look good, I guess the Hawks are hoping they can hit a few home runs with them, and get the pieces they need that way. It's a wild long shot, but given ownerships mandate, and given they've got a borderline franchise player already in Horford, it might be worth a shot to see how it works for 2 years before deciding where to go next.
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#13 » by parson » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:50 pm

For years, I've worried about our management because they ignored what are (to me) the 2 most important parts of any basketball team: PG and Center. You have to have a PG (unless you have a superstar whose peculiar skills bail you out, like a triangle offense based on Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant) to guarantee your offense and you have to have a Center (see the superstar comment) to guarantee your defense. And searching for Centers is more necessary because you can find good points easier than you can good pivots. What I loved about Ferry's draft is that he went after a good prospect at Center (Nogueira) and a VERY good prospect at PG (Schröder) - THEN he added another shot at a Center (Muscala).

The "San Antonio Model" has been to draft a Tim Duncan and build your team around him. Everything else is tangential. When some acknowledge this, they mean to say that SA got lucky. I don't. I mean it has to be our plan. Look at their history: they're not geniuses - they've had their share of mistakes - but they've always had Duncan. Tim Duncan has given them continuity ... and continuity gives management the veneer of genius.
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#14 » by Durins Baynes » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:28 am

People make mistakes when thinking that X position or Y position is "the most important". Teams can be built around a variety of skills and skill sets, and while some are harder to construct, it's a false dichotomy. Sure, 1 and 5 tend to be the hardest positions to properly fill, but that doesn't mean you take those positions over more talent.

Looking at the SA Spurs history it's hard to find many mistakes in recent years- Tony Parker, Manu, Kawhi, Danny Green, Tiago, Corey Joseph, these guys aren't "luck", they're a product of good management. To call it a "veneer" is pretty silly. I can only think of a handful of moves the Spurs have made as being "mistakes", and most of those are not really mistakes at all once you know more about the circumstances (Scola is the most oft cited "mistake").
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#15 » by kinein » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:40 am

theatlfan wrote:DeMarcus Cousins....


He still has a high schoolers mentality. And no work ethic. If he got in shape he could be the next Lebron, if he matured and grew up he could be special, if he wanted to be a leader he has had and continues to get all the free passes and opportunities to demonstrate as such.

He is just a Diva - created by ownership/mgmt.

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same way I feel about Josh Smith, he never out-worked his true rivals in the league and now he is on the decline, and the peak is behind him in his career.
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#16 » by myrak433 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:07 am

kinein wrote:
theatlfan wrote:DeMarcus Cousins....


He still has a high schoolers mentality. And no work ethic. If he got in shape he could be the next Lebron, if he matured and grew up he could be special, if he wanted to be a leader he has had and continues to get all the free passes and opportunities to demonstrate as such.

He is just a Diva - created by ownership/mgmt.

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same way I feel about Josh Smith, he never out-worked his true rivals in the league and now he is on the decline, and the peak is behind him in his career.



That simply isn't true. Josh Smith worked hard on his game and still does, He just tries to do things that he is not capable of. If Resheed Wallace teaches Josh two or three low post go to moves Josh will be a beast.
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#17 » by Yungsta404 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:46 pm

myrak433 wrote:
kinein wrote:
theatlfan wrote:DeMarcus Cousins....


He still has a high schoolers mentality. And no work ethic. If he got in shape he could be the next Lebron, if he matured and grew up he could be special, if he wanted to be a leader he has had and continues to get all the free passes and opportunities to demonstrate as such.

He is just a Diva - created by ownership/mgmt.

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same way I feel about Josh Smith, he never out-worked his true rivals in the league and now he is on the decline, and the peak is behind him in his career.



That simply isn't true. Josh Smith worked hard on his game and still does, He just tries to do things that he is not capable of. If Resheed Wallace teaches Josh two or three low post go to moves Josh will be a beast.


he may work hard on his game but he works hard on the wrong things like on his 3 point shot and his long 2 pointer instead of footwork/post moves and freethrows which is counterproductive.
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#18 » by parson » Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:52 pm

Just goes to show how very hard it is to be the best at anything: guys with Hall of Fame talent can have debilitating work ethics and attitudes ... or just make stupid career choices.
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#19 » by Durins Baynes » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:36 am

The biggest problem vis Josh Smith is that Ferry didn't arrive 1 year earlier, so he could trade him while his value was higher.
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Re: Hawks want to use Rockets' rebuilding model 

Post#20 » by Yungsta404 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:45 pm

Durins Baynes wrote:The biggest problem vis Josh Smith is that Ferry didn't arrive 1 year earlier, so he could trade him while his value was higher.


im not sure josh had much trade value around the league. He has been on the trading block for years.

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