ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee

Moderators: trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ

User avatar
MisterHibachi
RealGM
Posts: 18,657
And1: 19,075
Joined: Oct 06, 2013
Location: Toronto
 

ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#1 » by MisterHibachi » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:37 pm

This is the thread for the match up of seeds 7 and 3 in the Western Conference of the All-Time Fantasy League.

General Discussion in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1293300
Draft was in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1294562
Playoff results in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1299878

Western Conference SemiFinals: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee

(3) ardee
1. Dirk Nowitzki (09-11)
2. Steve Nash (05-07)
3. Robert Parish (81-83)
4. Joe Dumars (89-91)
5. Glen Rice (96-98)
6. Terry Cummings (84-86)
7. Alvan Adams (80-82)
8. Tony Parker (12-14)
9. Raja Bell (06-08)
10. Paul Pressey (85-87)

(7) O_6
1. Kevin Durant (12-14)
2. Patrick Ewing (90-92)
3. Penny Hardaway (94-96)
4. Rasheed Wallace (01-03)
5. Joe Johnson (08-10)
6. Dennis Johnson (80-82)
7. Joakim Noah (12-14)
8. Shane Battier (06-08)
9. Antonio McDyess (99-01)
10. Terrell Brandon (95-97)

Judges
bastillon
TMACFORMVP
penbeast0: O_6
ronnymac2: O_6
Doctor MJ
SideshowBob
Texas Chuck: O_6
therealbig3: O_6
whitehops: ardee
Quotatious: O_6
john248: O_6
MisterHibachi: O_6

In each match up, GMs will offer their preliminary strategy for beating the other team and reasons for why their team is stronger. GMs will also have the opportunity to respond to the opponent's strategy. Judges will offer any comments and questions they have of the GMs and finally will cast their vote for whichever team they think is stronger simply by saying 'Team A wins this matchup' or 'Team B wins this matchup'. Whoever gets more votes moves on.


Good luck!
"He looked like Batman coming out of nowhere"
kayess
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,807
And1: 1,000
Joined: Sep 29, 2013

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#2 » by kayess » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:44 am

This is almost the de facto Finals for me.

I won't even try to think, I'll just sit back and enjoy this one :))
User avatar
Laimbeer
RealGM
Posts: 43,066
And1: 15,150
Joined: Aug 12, 2009
Location: Cabin Creek
     

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#3 » by Laimbeer » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:45 pm

kayess wrote:This is almost the de facto Finals for me.

I won't even try to think, I'll just sit back and enjoy this one :))


Huh? Looks like two of the less appealing teams to me.
Comments to rationalize bad contracts -
1) It's less than the MLE
2) He can be traded later
3) It's only __% of the cap
4) The cap is going up
5) It's only __ years
6) He's a good mentor/locker room guy
O_6
Rookie
Posts: 1,178
And1: 1,586
Joined: Aug 25, 2010

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#4 » by O_6 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:50 pm

Minutes Distribution
Ewing (35) -- Noah (13)
Rasheed (30) -- McDyess (11) -- Noah (4) – Battier (3)
Durant (38) – Battier (10)
Joe J. (24) -- DJ (20) – Battier (4)
Penny (34) -- Brandon (11) -- DJ (3)

Defensive Matchups
- Ewing and Noah will guard Parish
- Sheed will be the primary defender on Dirk
- Noah/McDyess/Battier will all spend a few mins on Dirk, to give him different looks
- Durant and Battier will guard Rice
- Battier will guard Pressey and Cummings
- Joe Johnson will guard Dumars, he’ll guard Nash at times
- Penny will guard Nash, he’ll guard Dumars at times to conserve energy
- When DJ comes into the game, he will move onto Nash/Parker while Penny moves to the off-ball guard
- Brandon will guard Nash/Dumars/Parker/Bell, depending on who is on the floor with him
- I will be guarding man-to-man, throwing doubles or going zone is not an option with those shooters
- 7’ C, 6’11” PF, 6’10” SF, 6’8” SG, 6’7” PG… incredible length allows me to contest his jumpers well
- Ewing/Rasheed in the inside will make his already jumper-dependant team extra jumper-happy
- My superior athletes make it a mistake for him to get into an up-tempo game
- Rasheed/Ewing are both very good defending the PnR which will be important

Offensive Strategy
- Durant will be my go-to guy like always, but even more than usual considering Rice’s weak D
- I think Durant could go off in this series due to a lack of capable defensive options for ardee
- With the Penny/Joe/Durant trio, Nash will be forced to guard Johnson if Dumars moves to Penny
- I will abuse Nash in these 1 on 1 situations, Joe isn’t dominant but he is way too much for Nash
- Penny will attack the much smaller Dumars in the mid/low post
- Dumars has the quickness to affect Penny on the perimeter, but Penny is too long for him in the post
- Penny/JJ/KD will run PnR with Sheed/Ewing, I will attack Dirk more than Parish (so usually Sheed)
- Ewing will still get a good amount of touches in the post, he has proven that he can score on Parish
- Ewing's good range also hurts ardee's already weak interior D
- Rasheed will be the clear #5 option on the floor, but the spacing he provides makes a big impact
- DJ will do his jack of all trades act on offense when he is in, Nash will probably be guarding him
- McDyess will provide an interior scoring punch off the bench and make Dirk work on the defensive end
- Noah will focus on moving the ball, getting boards, and making open jumpers on offense
- Battier will make 3s and move the ball on offense
- Brandon is great in the HCO with his smart passing and great outside shot


Why I feel like I’ll win
There were 16 teams at the start of this tournament. I feel like ardee’s team ranks Top 3 in offense but Bottom 3 in defense. I feel like my team is in the mix for the Top 5 in both aspects (in the mix not definitely). I don't think I have an offense as good as ardee’s, but I do think my O vs. his D is a bigger mismatch than his O vs. my D.

Durant is my go-to scorer… being guarded by Rice (really weak defender)
Nowitzki is his go-to scorer… being guarded by Rasheed (really good defender)

Dirk is going to get his, especially during these years selected by ardee. What Dirk did in the ’11 playoffs speaks for itself. Simply put this version of Dirk is one of the best offensive players in NBA history. But I feel like Rasheed is about as good as it gets for a defensive player to matchup with this version of Dirk. Even though ’09-‘11 Dirk is probably better than Young Dirk, Rasheed’s low post-D and athleticism/length makes him more suited to guard this older Dirk. Dirk would still get his but you can do A LOT worse than Sheed to guard him. And I have a defender like Battier in case Dirk resorts to a style more similar to his younger days.

Glen Rice has no chance in hell of guarding Kevin Durant. Steve Buscemi has a better chance of hooking up with Kate Upton. Rice was a bad defender at the SF position. Durant is in the mix for GOAT offensive SF with LeBron and Bird (admittedly KD is probably 3rd here… but the #1 scorer). This is the kind of series where Durant can drop 35 PPG on insane efficiency. And the thing is, I don’t think ardee has a choice. Dumars has to cover the better offensive guard because of Nash’s weak D, and even if he wanted to he’s simply too small to bother Durant on the perimeter. Bell/Pressey/Cummings off the bench as other options to guard Durant doesn’t really scare me either. Pressey probably has the best chance at guarding Durant. But he was a point forward on offense and bringing him in for Rice would really hurt ardee’s offensive fit. It would also be much easier to double down on Dirk with Pressey in the games. And defensively, he probably still wouldn’t slow Durant down that much if at all. Ardee is kind of forced to have Rice guard Durant and have him do it 1 on 1 the majority of the time because of my shooting.

So right away I have a much more favorable matchup for my primary scorer. Dirk is a beast and like I said he’d still get his. But Durant could annihilate Rice and win this matchup for me by himself.

I went back and forth on whether to start DJ or JJ. Battier worked well for me in my 1st round matchup, but against ardee I feel like he would be the weakest option at the starting SG position. I want to either throw a great PG defender at Nash (DJ) or take advantage of Nash on the defensive end (JJ). Battier is a great role player but guarding quick PGs isn’t the best use of him on D and his lack of ball-handling makes it easy for Nash to guard him. Joe Johnson will start the game off at SG. He is a very skilled isolation scorer who can also be a good off-ball shooter (like he showed in Phoenix with Nash). He is simply too big, too long, too strong, too athletic, too skilled, too good for Nash to guard. There is no hiding Steve Nash’s D in an all-time league and I will take advantage of that with JJ. And again, ardee won’t have much of a choice here as Penny is an even bigger mismatch against Nash so Dumars will check him.

And if that’s not working as well as I want, I’m going to have a fresh DJ coming off the bench and hounding a very tired Nash (from having to defend JJ on top of running his offense). That Nash/Dirk PnR? Not many PnR defensive duos more capable of defending that than DJ/Sheed. DJ on the bench also makes it likely that he'll spend a lot of time guarding Parker. Parker's a great offensive creator off the bench, being able to counter that with one of the best perimeter defenders ever in DJ is important. Nash/Parker will still be able to get theirs with today's perimeter rules but DJ is great defender who will make them work and limit their efficiency.

Durant vs. Rice, Joe Johnson vs. Nash. Two enormous mismatches on the perimeter. And my other perimeter starter is Penny who had a fantastic post-up game. Check out YouTube, at times even guys like Pippen and Jordan looked helpless against Penny in the post. Dumars is a great defender but just too small to guard Penny in the post. And that’s only my 3rd best perimeter matchup when I’m on offense. And let’s not forget that Patrick Ewing was at his offensive peak during these years and absolutely roasted Robert Parish (still an All-Star) in the ’90 playoffs, I’ll make sure he gets his share of touches. Dirk is already a weak help defender and will be an even worse one in this series with Sheed pulling him outside.

I think I have a good D that could slow down ardee's offense but his offensive talent is simply too good to be shut down. But I think I have a ton of offensive potential against his defense and would just overwhelm his one dimensional team with my superior two way talent.
User avatar
john248
Starter
Posts: 2,367
And1: 651
Joined: Jul 06, 2010
 

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#5 » by john248 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:54 pm

Nice write-up. I can certainly appreciate the thought you put into this compared to "hey we're just going to run PnR" without a single mention of match-up exploits.
The Last Word
ardee
RealGM
Posts: 15,320
And1: 5,397
Joined: Nov 16, 2011

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#6 » by ardee » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:14 am

Ok nice write up O_6.

Let me start with a disclaimer.

I know I will not be shutting down O_6's team. Durant is a monster.

Thankfully, my team is not predicated on defense. Which is where the fun starts.

Rotations

I will go with the same starting line-up, but the minutes will be different from my previous matchup, that is for sure.

Nash (36)/Parker (12)
Dumars (35)/Bell (13)
Rice (25)/Pressey (15)/Bell (10)
Dirk (38)/Cummings (10)
Parish (38)/Cummings (10)

Sorry Alvan, I'm cutting you out of the rotation. And Tony, you'll get your minutes back next round.

Offense

Now when I look at the starting line-up for my opponent, I see only one guy who is going to make impact defensively and that is Ewing. Don't get me wrong, Rasheed Wallace is a very good defensive player but he is not the kind of pick and roll destroyer my opponent would need to ice my guys. He doesn't have the footspeed to keep up with the trickiness of Nash, and he has neither the length to contest Dirk's jumpers nor does he have the hops to block him in the post.

As for the perimeter, Penny is extremely athletic but he was never known to be a specialist PG defender, and he's going to find himself on Dirk or Cummings most of the time anyway given the amount I'm going to be using screens. Durant is a positive defender this season but he's going to have his hands completely full with Rice, if he leaves him even for a second there'll be trouble, so I'm not worried about him attacking my main options. Joe Johnson is a liability.

So my two primary plays will remain the Nash/Dirk PnR and Dirk posting up.

On the PnR, I think O_6's only option is to hedge. He has length in Penny and Rasheed that could potentially cause some trouble in the passing lanes for Nash but I'm very confident in Nash's ability to split the double team. He's put up monster numbers in Playoff series' with freaking Tim Duncan as the defensive big man, he's not going to have problems getting the ball wherever he needs to here.

I don't need to go over the options again I think. Dirk is a 50% mid-range shooter, Nash, Dirk, Rice and Dumars are all 40-45% three-point shooters, Rice is 66% in the corner, so Penny and Rasheed are not going to be getting much help, if they do, well, it's goodnight.

I will utilize Parish more in this matchup as well. He has a good midrange jumper, and if he pulls Ewing out of the paint it opens up lanes for Nash, Dumars and Dirk. Ewing can absolutely not afford to help on any plays because when he did that in the series he played against Boston in 1990, Parish was a 126 ORtg player, he took advantage. It didn't make too much of a difference because this was an older Parish capable of only 18.4 USG. This is a Parish who can make him pay for 48 minutes every time he strays even a little bit.

For defensive purposes, I will be using Bell more in this matchup. He will play the same role as Rice, essentially just a spot-up 3-point shooter at just as good efficiency. I don't use Rice on-ball so I don't lose anything really.

Parker loses his time as a 2 but I'm going to use him like crazy when Brandon is playing, and whenever DJ is off the floor basically. For that time my offense will revolve solely around attacking that matchup and exposing JJ and Brandon like crazy.

As for JJ guarding Nash, even for short periods, that's going to be awesome for me. JJ is just a bad defensive player, he doesn't understand how to go under screens, there'll be a lot of occassions during that short time he is on Nash that I'll be having Nash just pull-up off the pick and roll instead of finding the roll-man or shooters. Why not, for a 55% 2 point shooter?

And finally, good luck to anyone trying to guard Dirk, specifically Battier and McDyess. This is 2009-11 Dirk, the one with the complete post-game. He is not troubled by smaller guys. He's going to need to be doubled, and my shooters will flourish off that.

Overall I like the matchups for my team. Penny can't guard Nash, if my opponent has any hope of stopping my pick and roll he's going to have to leave shooters open, and they'll make him pay, Ewing can't guard Parish because he risks leaving the lane exposed, and absolutely nobody can guard Dirk.

I'll maintain my 125ish+ ORtg, I can say that with confidence.

Defense

The matchups are worse for me here than with my previous opponent, but I still have confidence.

-Dumars will guard Penny. It's worth noting in 1996, an aged Dumars held Penny to 42% shooting from the field in their Playoff series. I'm not saying even a peak Dumars will do the same but it's a good matchup and Penny will not be operating at peak effectiveness.
-I'm happy with Nash on JJ. If O_6 wants to spam that, by all means. It would mean taking the ball out of Durant and Penny's hands, and I'd much rather have JJ 'kill' me than those two. It's a bad matchup but it's one I'll gladly take because O_6 going to it will stagnate his offense and give a worse overall product on that side of the ball.
-I'm staggering Rice's minutes so he has to play minimal time when Durant is on the floor. There will be times when he is guarding him, yes, and fine, I'll take that because he gives me a bigger advantage on the other end. But I'm utilizing Bell more in this matchup, and there's a precedent... In the 2013 Playoffs, Memphis used Tony Allen and hounding team defense to make Durant inefficient from the field. It's only this year that Durant has really had that holy **** level floor game, in 2012 and 2013 he still had troubles with putting the ball on the floor. He'll get his for sure, but Bell/Pressey will make him work for it.
-I'm using Cummings more in this matchup up front. He's the type of dirty banger who could get in Rasheed's head and have him called for those ever famous technicals. He's also monstrously strong, I'm happy to put him on Ewing for a little while. When Dirk is on the floor, I'm ok with him on Wallace. Wallace would post him up no doubt, but it's the same thing as JJ on Nash.... If he wants to exploit that matchup it's fine with me, vs. using Durant and Penny.
-The main thing here is Ewing and Parish. Parish is athletic enough to force Ewing into more jumpers. He'll get his no doubt but a peak Parish was among the best defenders in the league. He's not going to be putting up 32-11 like he did on an older Parish in 1990. I'm happy having Ewing shoot jumpers rather than a Penny/KD layup line. I'll also have Cummings on Ewing for a little while to be extra physical with him. I don't care if he gets whistled for it, the purpose will just be to shake him up and be nasty.

Summation, Ewing and KD will get theirs, but particularly Ewing will not be on his usual efficient. I'd take a 30 ppg on KD from 60% TS but it won't be a super effective 30 ppg, more like the 30 ppg he put up on the Heat in the 2012 Finals, because the spacing is a little off for O_6's team, allowing me to play his guys one on one most of the time. Pressey, Bell and Dumars is a pretty good wing defensive rotation so I'm happy having those guys spend all their time on the floor just hounding Durant, like the 2013 Grizzlies did.

Penny will have his effectiveness limited by Dumars. The other guys, like I said, I'm not worried about. I'd encourage O_6 to go to the likes of Rasheed and JJ in fact.

I think he scores on me, no doubt, but he will not stop me from scoring as efficiently as I can. The key is that my bigs will draw his out of the paint with their shooting, he doesn't have the right personnel to handle my PnR and finally, no one can stop Dirk.

It'd go 7 no doubt but I think I would edge it. Up to the judges now.
O_6
Rookie
Posts: 1,178
And1: 1,586
Joined: Aug 25, 2010

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#7 » by O_6 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:30 pm

MY TWO JOHNSONS
I've already written about them above but I feel like I need to talk about them more to sell you guys on my rotation. Joe Johnson has a very "meh" reputation in the basketball community because he was overpaid and was playing in a star role when he should've been more of a great supporting player. His "Iso Joe" nickname also doesn't help since a lot of Atlanta's plays were very generic and he'd do a lot of isos.

But this is still a 20/5/5 player who is very good from beyond the arc. A player who can handle the ball very well, can run point for stretches, can obviously create for himself and others, can play off the ball and drill outside shots on catch-and-shoots, can play defense.

I think ardee didn't give some of my defenders enough credit. He says Joe Johnson is a "bad" defender which has never been the case. I haven't followed him that closely this year so maybe his D has regressed, but in his prime he was considered an above-average defender. ardee makes him sound like a James Harden who teams just go out of the way to take advantage of. That was never the case. Some might say he was below-average as a defender, but most thought he was above-average at the time. And I'm going to have him defend Nash only for little stretches to save Penny some energy.

We're talking a few mins a game where Nash is guarded by Johnson. On the other end you are going to have Nash guard Joe Johnson 20+ mins a game. You say you'll take that because it will mess with my offensive flow, but I think that's because there's nothing else you could possibly say. Whereas Joe Johnson wasn't really a bad defensive player, Steve Nash was truly an AWFUL defensive player no matter how you look at it. Joe Johnson was a player with a 110 ORtg during the years I selected, but he was also going up against the best perimeter defender the other team had for 82 games a season. If Joe Johnson was a 110 ORtg player being guarded by good perimeter defenders while playing with a very average offensive cast in Atlanta, imagine what he'd be on my loaded offensive team being guarded by an absolute garbage defender like Nash.

And KEVIN DURANT WILL BE MY CLEAR #1 OPTION. I want to reiterate that because I want people to know that I'm not going to go overboard and give Johnson as many or more touches than Durant because he'll be guarded by Nash. Durant is going up against another bad defender in Glen Rice. Someone so bad at defense that ardee has to adjust his rotation and play Rice limited minutes because of how helpless he'd be against Durant. Joe Johnson will get his share of touches and I WILL take advantage of a joke of a defender like Nash being put on him, but Kevin Durant is going to be my #1 option by a clear margin. Penny and Ewing will also get a ton of touches too and be a big part of the offense. I am not going to live and die by Joe Johnson on offense, but I will abuse Steve Nash when he is guarding someone he has no chance in hell of guarding.

Joe Johnson will be playing 24 MPG in this series
Dennis Johnson will be playing 23 MPG in this series

Steve Nash is used to being hidden on the weaker perimeter offensive player. That can work in the NBA but it's not going to work in an all-time league where almost everyone is an offensive threat. He is going to have to exert a ton of energy on defense in this league when he is guarding the much more physical and athletic Joe Johnson. He is not used to expending that much energy on both sides of the ball. And then once he gets the relief of seeing Joe go to the bench, he'll then have DJ coming off the bench to hound him. A fresh DJ is going to make an already tired Nash work very hard on offense. DJ is one of the best defenders you could possibly throw at Nash. And DJ could play off-ball on offense and hit shots off of screens. So Nash will also have to chase him around on offense, tiring him out even more. DJ is coming off the bench but is only playing 1 MPG less than Joe Johnson. Late in close games I will likely have DJ over JJ in the game to defend the Nash/Dirk PnR that ardee will go to a lot.
O_6
Rookie
Posts: 1,178
And1: 1,586
Joined: Aug 25, 2010

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#8 » by O_6 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:51 pm

I also think ardee is really underrating Rasheed Wallace as a defender. He says that Sheed isn't a very good PnR defender which is something I totally disagree with. Young Sheed with that length and agility was a very good PnR defender. ardee also says that Rasheed didn't have the length to contest Dirk in the post. Dirk is great and I understand that his fadeaway mid-range jumper is virtually unblockable, but Rasheed is basically a 7 footer who had excellent length, strength, and agility. There aren't 5 better defenders for '09-'11 Dirk in this project than prime Rasheed imo.

The Nash/Dirk PnR and Dirk in the post will be the go-to plays for ardee. And there is no stopping those plays. Just two brilliant offensive players. But with Sheed I have an excellent defensive big involved in both those plays who I can trust to do a good job. He won't shut down those plays but he will limit their effectiveness somewhat. Especially when he is paired up with DJ who would be excellent in PnR defense.

I also want to point out that ardee has Robert Parish playing 38 MPG in this series. Over his 21 year career, Robert Parish played 38 MPG exactly ZERO TIMES in his career! In 21 years he played above 32 mins per game only 4 times! From '81-'83, Parish averaged 30.4 MPG in the regular season and 32.4 MPG in the playoffs.

So ardee is asking a player who never played 38 MPG on a consistent basis against regular NBA teams to play 38 MPG against my loaded offensive team that has a dominant 2 way Center in Patrick Ewing. That's asking a lot out of Robert Parish. And in the 10 MPG where Parish isn't the Center, Terry Cummings is going to be the C? Cummings is a PF/SF who was definitely strong but there is no way in hell he could guard true Centers like Ewing. And when Cummings/Dirk is the PF/C combination on defense, ardee's interior defense is going to be laughable and my players can score at the rim at will.
User avatar
MisterHibachi
RealGM
Posts: 18,657
And1: 19,075
Joined: Oct 06, 2013
Location: Toronto
 

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#9 » by MisterHibachi » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:00 pm

I think Sheed defending Dirk on a post up will allow O_6 to stay at home on shooters and play Dirk 1-on-1, which would be huge.
"He looked like Batman coming out of nowhere"
User avatar
john248
Starter
Posts: 2,367
And1: 651
Joined: Jul 06, 2010
 

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#10 » by john248 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:54 am

Just a few comments...

O_6's team
Offensively, Durant is going to get his and then some. Anyone who's being guarded by Nash will get buckets too without an elite rim defender in the way. It's really no secret that opposing teams would run some screens to get Nash to defend the other team's best ISO player for some easy looks.

Defensively, the strategy looks good too. Wallace & DJ can disrupt the PnR/P. I see DJ and Penny as 2 guys who will fight over the top of screens to chase Nash with Wallace being long and athletic. Anything involving JJ, I'm not so convinced off since he goes under screens which would give up shots to Nash. But the interior defense here is good, and with a number of 6'5"-6'8" athletic guys, they can switch and not get caught off guard too much defensively. I would've liked to see an emphasis on fronting Dirk.

I do like that Rasheed is the 5th option here. TBH, I was never too impressed with him offensively, but here he can really just be a stretch 4. He is better served as someone who can get some touches every once in a while and focus more on the defensive end though he pretty much got a technical called on him every other game while also getting suspended for being a hot head.

I also see DJ as someone who can be left alone where whoever is guarding him can go help somewhere else. He didn't really have that sweet spot between the arc and free throw line til later anyways.

ardee's team
Offensively, this team is awesome. IIRC, I read a comment in his last match-up thread where someone said this team would go stretches where no scoring would happen due to being a jump shooting team which I disagree with considering this team has Nash and Dirk who are masters of the half court offense. I do think Penny/DJ/Wallace can disrupt ardee's PnR/P so that it isn't as effective as his last match-up, but well, it'll still kick ass. The key here will be forcing Dirk to go over his left shoulder where he is less effective, even during these years, but even then, Dirk will still be highly efficient overall.

Defensively, no one is stopping Durant here whether years 12, 13, or 14. With as many minutes as DJ is playing, I'd like to see the help defender coming from whoever is guarding him. DJ will likely be on the weak side in most situations anyways, so it's easy to just leave him open since it'll take a couple passes to get to him where he's not the best shooter, and it'll be easy to rotate to him. Problem is, I don't see that here in the strategy. lol
ardee and I can both agree that JJ will be targeted too. I think we see it differently since it's odd for me to read ardee write about icing the PnR while reading later about running under screens. In any case, if JJ finds himself going under a screen in any type of PnR defense, well he's already given up the middle of the court at which point it's easy offense.
With all that said, 38 minutes for Parish is a bit much which is a mistake.

I am leaning in 1 direction.
The Last Word
ardee
RealGM
Posts: 15,320
And1: 5,397
Joined: Nov 16, 2011

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#11 » by ardee » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:10 am

Haven't the time to respond in detail but the Parish thing seems to be an issue...

I'm not playing him that long for 82 games.

From 1972-1985 Parish played 37-38 mpg over the whole Playoffs, usually 15-25 games.

This is just one series. The guy who played 1192 consecutive games should hold up just fine.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using RealGM Forums mobile app
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 30,415
And1: 9,942
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#12 » by penbeast0 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:45 pm

About Parish . . .

In the chosen playoffs from 81-83, Parish averaged:

81 28.9mpg
82 35.5 mpg
83 35.6 mpg

In 84 he averaged over 37 mpg in the playoffs and in 85 over 38 so he did play these minutes in the years just after the chosen years.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
O_6
Rookie
Posts: 1,178
And1: 1,586
Joined: Aug 25, 2010

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#13 » by O_6 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:47 am

Parish in the Playoffs MPG
81-83: 32.4 MPG
81-88: 35.2 MPG
81-93: 34.8 MPG

It's not that I don't think Parish can play 38 MPG in a series. It isn't like he is some 20 MPG player. He did average about 35 MPG in the playoffs for Boston for most of his run, and 32 MPG during the years selected. It's believable that he could play 38 MPG.

But that is still more mins than he is used to and the absolute upper end of his limit. Especially since he will be going up against a very aggressive and offensively gifted (during this stage of his career) Patrick Ewing who was very physical and could draw a lot of fouls. Not only are you going to have Parish gassed at the end of the game, by playing him 38 mins a game he might end up in foul trouble often.

Not only will ardee have to worry about Ewing bullying his way into foul trouble for Parish, he also has to worry about my perimeter players getting to the rim at will against his weak perimeter D (Nash/Rice). That will force Parish into contesting a lot of shots at the rim and lead into more potential foul trouble, especially if he plays 38 mins a game.

And he has Terry Cummings, a PF/SF as the backup C for Parish. He has him playing 10 MPG at Center. During those 10 minutes, ardee's defensive interior will be really bad. Not just really bad for an All-Time League, really bad for a normal NBA team. Dirk/Cummings as the interior defenders means I can attack the rim at will for those 10 minutes. And again, those 10 minutes are assuming that Parish plays 38 MPG which is optimistic considering his career MPG averages and the fact that he'll have a ton of defensive responsibility in this series going up against Ewing and having to deal with a lot of drives to the rim courtesy of the poor perimeter defenders on his team
User avatar
Texas Chuck
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 92,590
And1: 98,928
Joined: May 19, 2012
Location: Purgatory
   

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#14 » by Texas Chuck » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:10 am

What I like about O6's team is that he can play primarily a defensive lineup to try and slow ardee's offensive juggernaut and with KD he's still going to be able to score.

Both PGs are going to be dominant offensively in this. Neither team really has an answer for the other guy. And Dirk and Durant will have a tremendous scoring duel. Sheed can't really guard Dirk, but he's smart and long and Ewing helps protect the paint. I love Raja Bell's competitiveness and he will certainly battle KD and we know he works offensively with Nash, but he gives up so much size. I hate that ardee has no good options at all for end of game situations with KD or JJ or Penny. Its a problem.

Im also concerned if ardee can at least stay close on the glass. Dirk/Chief are both good defensive rebounders, but his team gives up a lot of size and athleticism on the wings.

A Nash/Dirk offense is always going to get a game or two just by overwhelming you with offense. But overall I think the lack of size/athleticism and defense catches up with them here.

Vote: O6 in 7.
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
User avatar
Quotatious
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 16,999
And1: 11,145
Joined: Nov 15, 2013

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#15 » by Quotatious » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:24 pm

Vote: O_6 in 6 games.

Excellent gameplans - great job both guys, but I think that 0_6's defense is going to be too much for ardee. Rasheed is about as good as you can hope for against Dirk, and then you pair him with peak Ewing? :o I definitely love that. Sheed would make Dirk work on defense by taking him out to the three point line. He was also extremely athletic (much more athletic than Nowitzki) during the 2001-03 stretch. Basically he'd give Dirk a taste of his own medicine. I know 0_6 noted that Wallace is going to be only his 5th option (that's perfectly understandable), but I'm sure that Sheed would get two or three open threes with the amount of offensive talent on 0_6's team which requires heavy attention from ardee's defense.

Now that I'm looking at all those teams once again, I think that 0_6 and Notanoob have the two best teams in this tournament. Ardee, there's no reason to be ashamed of losing to him. :wink: I'm sure your guys would put up quite a fight against them, but I just don't see how you could win that.

As far as Ewing vs Parish, I'm sure the Chief would hold his own. Even in 1990, 37 year old Parish averaged 16 PPG on 64% TS against 28 year old, peak Ewing. Obviously Pat lit him up for literally twice as many points (almost 32 PPG on 60% TS), having the best playoff series of his career against Boston, but for such an old man, playing against an opponent who had one of the best peaks among all centers, it was pretty good. I remember Parish was even able to beat Ewing in isolation on a few occassions, finishing with right-handed hook shots or his deadly, unblockable fadeaway. I think it'd be similar to peak Hakeem vs peak Zo in my matchup against Notanoob - and that means isn't going to get eaten alive, or even outplayed too badly. Still, I think that KD vs Rice and Penny or JJ against Nash is a very bad matchup defensively for ardee.
therealbig3
RealGM
Posts: 29,537
And1: 16,101
Joined: Jul 31, 2010

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#16 » by therealbig3 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:55 pm

Sorry guys, I've been really busy. Let's see here...

I think Nash not being able to hide on anyone is an excellent argument here. Let me just say something about Joe Johnson...first of all, he is a good defender, so that point is actually false by ardee. I'd actually feel ok with him guarding Nash, due to his length. Furthermore, Johnson is an excellent post player for a SG. Nash guarding Johnson just spells trouble, because he will absolutely abuse Nash inside unless you send help...which wouldn't be good because of all the shooting and slashing O_6 has with Penny, Durant, Sheed, Ewing, Battier, McDyess, and Brandon.

I also like how O_6 matches up. As others have mentioned, you can't stop a Nash and Dirk offense, especially when they have great spacing and defenders that can cover their weaknesses (Parish, Dumars, Bell). However, with regards to covering their weaknesses, in an all-time league like this, there's really no covering them...Nash is going to have to defend Penny or Johnson, and that spells a lot of trouble, since Penny was abusing a prime Scottie Pippen with his post game, and as I said, Johnson has an excellent post game as well. I actually wouldn't have an issue with O_6 running his offense through whoever Nash is guarding, because Durant is such a portable player, that he would do a great job spotting up, coming off screens, and slashing to the basket. Furthermore, he's also being guarded by a defensive sieve in Rice, so a healthy dose of Durant and JJ/Penny against Nash in the post, with Ewing utilizing his mid-range jumper pulling Parish out of the paint (yeah, that works both ways), and also taking up space inside and finishing on dives to the rim...that's unstoppable.

The one nitpick I have with O_6's team is that Johnson does have a reputation as a ball-stopper. The team would need to establish a clear hierarchy of this being Durant's and Ewing's team, not his, and he needs to play a complementary role, where he gets the ball when there's a mismatch (Nash), or he's a spot up shooter that works off-ball. That's it.

And in terms of defensive matchups, there's really nothing that stops Nash or Dirk...but wearing out Nash on offense through big guards like Penny and JJ, or running him ragged with a guy like Brandon or Johnson, can be a pretty effective defense. Furthermore, Nash is a savant in the PnR...O_6 has the big men that can defend the PnR, with a young Ewing, Sheed, and Noah. A mobile PF like McDyess as well.

With regards to Dirk, Ewing/Sheed/Noah/McDyess/Battier is as tough of a matchup as you could get for him. He'll still score, but it would be a struggle for him.

At the end of the day, the key matchups favor O_6 imo...Nash, Dirk, and the rest of the shooters, as well as a big man like Parish, are going to generate a great offense, but it might not be as elite as you would expect when you look at the kind of looks that O_6 can throw at ardee's team. Meanwhile, there's just a lot of big defensive mismatches that O_6 will exploit, specifically with whoever Nash guards between Penny and JJ, and then of course, the best player on the team (Durant) is being guarded by Glenn Robinson.

Vote: O_6
JulesWinnfield
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,825
And1: 6,483
Joined: Mar 24, 2013
Location: NY
   

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#17 » by JulesWinnfield » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:19 am

Hell of a job by O_6 in this tourney, both drafting his team and arguing for them. Not to take anything away from Ardee who did a great job getting here.
User avatar
ronnymac2
RealGM
Posts: 11,008
And1: 5,077
Joined: Apr 11, 2008
   

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#18 » by ronnymac2 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:07 am

Laimbeer wrote:
kayess wrote:This is almost the de facto Finals for me.

I won't even try to think, I'll just sit back and enjoy this one :))


Huh? Looks like two of the less appealing teams to me.


:lol: Relax. Stay coaching WNBA teams, killah.
Pay no mind to the battles you've won
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 30,415
And1: 9,942
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
 

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#19 » by penbeast0 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:26 am

I think this comes down to which star is most effective, Dirk or Durant. Although the Nash/Nowitzki combo didn't prove dominant when Dallas had it, I think it is a powerful weapon but Rasheed and Ewing are pretty good stoppers. I don't think Rice or even Raja Bell is going to have the same effect on Durant's athleticism and length. Rice is weak and Bell is more of a 2. While the other matchups, particularly Nash v. Joe Johnson (or DJ) have also drawn attention and rightfully so, I think I buy 0_6's view of how the series will play out more. Vote: 0_6
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
User avatar
ronnymac2
RealGM
Posts: 11,008
And1: 5,077
Joined: Apr 11, 2008
   

Re: ATFL Western: (7) O_6 vs. (3) ardee 

Post#20 » by ronnymac2 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:02 am

Ewing (35) -- Noah (13)
Rasheed (30) -- McDyess (11) -- Noah (4) – Battier (3)
Durant (38) – Battier (10)
Joe J. (24) -- DJ (20) – Battier (4)
Penny (34) -- Brandon (11) -- DJ (3)

Nash (36)/Parker (12)
Dumars (35)/Bell (13)
Rice (25)/Pressey (15)/Bell (10)
Dirk (38)/Cummings (10)
Parish (38)/Cummings (10)


Hell of a matchup. Great job to both of you. Two of the strongest teams in this league.

As much as I like Sheed's man defense, he was more adept at slowing down low-post back-to-the-basket bigs not named Shaq. He'd be perfect for slowing Tim Duncan or Pau Gasol or Dwight Howard. Dirk Nowitzki though? I think he's more equipped to handle Dirk than most, but not enough to truly slow Nowitzki down, especially with all the spacing Ardee has surrounded him with.

I like the fact that Ardee said he'd be utilizing Parish more as a mid-range shooter. Makes sense since Ewing will likely try and help on slashers like Nash and Parker. Good strategy. That was always going to be there anyway. Parish is a rock. Love that stoic mother **** in all-time leagues.

Quite frankly, Ardee's offense is going to do what it does. I think it some games, Ewing/Sheed/Noah will be enough to slow down the pick-n-roll (I like Durant, Battier, and DJ closing out on offensive players who aren't their man...O_6 has a pretty versatile defense...really nice size on the perimeter...it'll make guys like Parish and Rice put the ball on the floor when that isn't their strength). Ardee might have that 125 ORTG, but he'll have more peaks and valleys against this squad. As I said, Ewing/Sheed/Noah with Battier/DJ/KD is a long defense that can soak up slashers yet spread its tentacles over the 3-point line and recover well.

On the other side, O_6 clearly stated KD is his number 1 option, so Ewing taking jumpers isn't really an issue like Ardee claims. KD is going to torch everybody and anything. There will be very little resistance here.

I like that O_6 is switching things up with JJ/Penny/KD. It is kind of like Westbrook/Harden/KD in that somewhere, there is going to be a physical mismatch he can exploit. KD remains the number 1 option, but JJ gets his time going at Nash, too. If Nash had better defensive players behind him, this might be OK. But Parish is occupied with Ewing either rolling to the rim or spotting up from 15 feet for a sweet jumper. Dirk is following Rasheed out to the 3-point line.

Joe Dumars had amazing lateral speed because he took extremely wide steps sideways that allowed him to get to a spot before the offensive player turned the corner on him. I actually think he'll do decent work against Penny, but Penny does have a legit height advantage, and again, Joe doesn't have the Bad Boys behind him. I love Parish, but he's got his hands full with a guy who can attack on or off the ball in Pat Ewing.

I like Bell and Cummings getting more minutes here, but quite frankly, I don't think it's enough. O_6 is going to have consistently great offense — consistently exploiting mismatches. They won't stop Ardee's potent offense, but they don't need to. They just mercilessly attack them on the other end to an even greater extent.

This goes 6 games. O_6 steals Game 6 in the final five minutes. Should really be a seven game series.

Vote: O_6
Pay no mind to the battles you've won
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle
Open your heart and hands, my son
Or you'll never make it over the river

Return to Player Comparisons