Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek??

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Re: Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek?? 

Post#41 » by Narf » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:15 am

Well hi there :) Just adding my 2 cents.

The problem with the Wolves giving fair value for Westbrook is they don't have enough left to put 5 solid starters on the floor, let alone a bench. I'm not sure that Love stays for that team, even with Westbrook. The Wolves also owe a draft pick next year, so they'd be without their pick this year and next. They'd also be near the lux, so they couldn't add anyone else good realistically.

The Wolves have to hope Rubio continues to improve. For those who don't remember, Rubio tore his ACL rookie year, came back middle of last year, and essentially was in rehab on the court last year and in the off season. This year was essentially his 2nd year on the court, and he's had less than a full off season to work on his game as part of last off season was working on his leg and just getting back to what he was rookie year. Rubio started finishing in the paint the last 2 months of the season (basically shot about 42% from inside 8 feet, and that jumped to 53+% over April/May...25 games). Too small a sample size to say for sure, but it looks like Rubio might actually finish inside at a near-average rate (which would be all we need from him).

And to the person who said Pek was an average center, average centers don't average 20/10 per 36 with a .580 TS%. Seriously dude, you can say he's not worth his salary but let's not call him average. He is, by the way, worth his salary ;)

If the Wolves instead trade something like Barea (bought out for 2.5 mil)/#13 for Afflalo, Move Kevin Martin to the bench, and add a MLE backup PG they have:

Dieng/Pekovic/Turiaf
Love/LRMAM
Brewer/Shabazz/Budinger
Afflalo/Martin
Rubio/MLE PG/Shved

Our GM was the one talking about Dieng and Pek splitting minutes to lower Pek's injury chances/wear over the season. He also said he wanted to add a starting wing and put Martin on the bench so his defensive liability isn't a big deal, as most backup SGs suck. Then Martin and Pek would, basically, annihilate their bench every game. Especially with a solid backup PG.

Dieng is a great fit with Love and Rubio. Runs like a dear, rebounds, blocks shots, good transition offense with Rubio, and has a nice mid-range shot. So I think he's starting next year, and maybe playing 22-25 minutes.

Anyway, that's from a Wolves fan who thinks Minnesota can't give fair value for Westbrook and still make it work. But we can go another route and have a much better team overall.

Oh, and the reason we lost was not Rubio. He was actually our best player +/- wise and is top 50 in the NBA in RAPM. We lost because our bench was far and away the worst in the NBA.
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Re: Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek?? 

Post#42 » by spearsy23 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:35 pm

Narf wrote:And to the person who said Pek was an average center, average centers don't average 20/10 per 36 with a .580 TS%. Seriously dude, you can say he's not worth his salary but let's not call him average. He is, by the way, worth his salary ;)

Chris Kaman. The fact is, an average center in a historical context looks like a top 3 center today. Pek is certainly well above average for today's game, but a top 3 point guard is much more valuable (and better) than a top 3 Center just based on depth and talent of the position. And there's Pekovic's inability to provide a defensive presence to take into account also (though he's a solid post defender, just not a defensive anchor), he's a very good player, but he looks better in context with the rest of todays centers than he does in a vacum.

EDIT: And just as an aside, I really do like Rubio, he's exciting and seems like a great person. But he's not a scoring threat, so trading russ for him and Pek would leave us with the same number of scoring threats as before.
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek?? 

Post#43 » by Narf » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:41 pm

spearsy23 wrote:
Narf wrote:And to the person who said Pek was an average center, average centers don't average 20/10 per 36 with a .580 TS%. Seriously dude, you can say he's not worth his salary but let's not call him average. He is, by the way, worth his salary ;)

Chris Kaman. The fact is, an average center in a historical context looks like a top 3 center today. Pek is certainly well above average for today's game, but a top 3 point guard is much more valuable (and better) than a top 3 Center just based on depth and talent of the position. And there's Pekovic's inability to provide a defensive presence to take into account also (though he's a solid post defender, just not a defensive anchor), he's a very good player, but he looks better in context with the rest of todays centers than he does in a vacum.

EDIT: And just as an aside, I really do like Rubio, he's exciting and seems like a great person. But he's not a scoring threat, so trading russ for him and Pek would leave us with the same number of scoring threats as before.

Kaman has a career .524 TS% and has never averaged 20 points/10 rebounds per 36. Only once in his career did he average 10 rebounds and he's sporting a 0.36 WS/48. Pekovic's win share/48 the last 3 years is .170, .163, .169, his ORtg the last 3 years is 117, 115, 117 and his career TS% is .583.

The fact that you took someone demonstrably worse than Pekovic and called them the same makes my point. No one can look at Kaman and Pekovic's stats and conclude they are equal.
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Re: Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek?? 

Post#44 » by spearsy23 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:50 pm

Narf wrote:
spearsy23 wrote:
Narf wrote:And to the person who said Pek was an average center, average centers don't average 20/10 per 36 with a .580 TS%. Seriously dude, you can say he's not worth his salary but let's not call him average. He is, by the way, worth his salary ;)

Chris Kaman. The fact is, an average center in a historical context looks like a top 3 center today. Pek is certainly well above average for today's game, but a top 3 point guard is much more valuable (and better) than a top 3 Center just based on depth and talent of the position. And there's Pekovic's inability to provide a defensive presence to take into account also (though he's a solid post defender, just not a defensive anchor), he's a very good player, but he looks better in context with the rest of todays centers than he does in a vacum.

EDIT: And just as an aside, I really do like Rubio, he's exciting and seems like a great person. But he's not a scoring threat, so trading russ for him and Pek would leave us with the same number of scoring threats as before.

Kaman has a career .524 TS% and has never averaged 20 points/10 rebounds. Only once in his career did he average 10 rebounds and he's sporting a 0.36 WS/48. Pekovic's win shar/48 is .170, .163, .169 and his career TS% is .583.

The fact that you took someone demonstrably worse than Pekovic and called them the same makes my point. No one can look at their stats and conclude they are similar or equal.

Kaman this season was 19.8 and 11.3 per 36 with a 54% TS and he played on the worst team in the Western Conference, and had a much better defensive on/off. There was nothing per 36 showing Pekovic as demonstrably better. That's half my point, cherry picking per 36 stats is ridiculous because players only have value while playing. But if you're just looking at those per 36's, Chris Kaman is every bit the player Pekovic is. :wink:
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek?? 

Post#45 » by Narf » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:06 pm

spearsy23 wrote:Kaman this season was 19.8 and 11.3 per 36 with a 54% TS and he played on the worst team in the Western Conference, and had a much better defensive on/off. There was nothing per 36 showing Pekovic as demonstrably better. That's half my point, cherry picking per 36 stats is ridiculous because players only have value while playing. But if you're just looking at those per 36's, Chris Kaman is every bit the player Pekovic is. :wink:
Is that really what you're going with? +/-?

Kaman on court (points per 100 possesson):
Offense: 102.4, Defense: 108.1, total: -5.7
Team Rebounding %: 47.7%

Off court
Offense: 105.6, Defense: 112.6, total: -7.0
Team Rebounding %: 45.4%
Net: +1.3 points, +1.7% rebounding

Pekovic on court:
Offense: 113.5, Defense: 105.1, total: +8.4
Team Rebounding %: 54.3%

Off court
Offense: 107.8, Defense: 108.3, total: -0.5
Team Rebounding %: 49.8%
Net: +8.9, +4.5% rebounding


Looks like real similar players to me!

By the way, it's a whole lot easier to go from 45% rebounding to 47% then it is to go from 50% to 54%.
It's also a whole lot easier to drop from 112 to 108 then it is to go from 108 to 105 defensively.
Pek is a better defender and rebounder than Kaman, and offensively it's not close. And Kaman did not have a .540 TS%, he had a .537 vs Pek's .582. That's 4.5% lower.

You're right that Kaman is an average center. I very much doubt anyone in this room agrees with you that Kaman = Pekovic.
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Re: Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek?? 

Post#46 » by bbms » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:30 pm

I think people underrate Pekovic a lot. He would certainly look very good to great at every aspect of the basketball game in a Thunder jersey.

He's not a great defender but he's every bit of a big body that Perkins is on low post, plus, you'd have a growing Serge Ibaka to protect his weakside.

He's not the great passing big I'd love to have to combo with Durant, but he's hell efficient in the low post, and would be a decent fit since he would create a lot of space for Durant to work in mid range.

He looks very good rebounding for Minny, imagine what he would do if he didn't have to share rebounds with one of the best rebounders of all time in Love? He's the goddamn best offensive rebounder in the league!! Offensive rebounding is an offense on its own.

Pekovic is arguably the most impactful offensive center in the league, no doubt about that.

I'd trade Pekovic and Minny 2014 1st rounder, plus a future protected 1st rounder for Westbrook. Then, I'd move up in the draftboard with our first round picks and draft Marcus Smart, and go forward to 2015 with Durant, Ibaka, Pekovic and the young fellas in Smart, Jackson, Lamb, Jones, Adams, Pleiss and Roberson. Resign Caron Butler and keep Nick Collison. That's a lot of talent.

Reggie Jackson / Marcus Smart
Caron Butler / Jeremy Lamb / Andre Roberson
Kevin Durant / Perry Jones / Andre Roberson
Serge Ibaka / Nick Collison / Perry Jones III
Nikola Pekovic / Steven Adams / Tibor Pleiss

That's a championship-level team. We lose Westbrook, and Jackson and Smart can't deliver Westbrook's offensive productivity at all, but I feel we become far more dangerous offensively. With improved 3pt shooting in Caron Butler and a legit scoring center in Pekovic, keeping a above average defensive team to say the least. A Pekovic + Ibaka combo in the frontcourt would make life a lot easier for our perimeter players to attack the rim.
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Re: Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek?? 

Post#47 » by Narf » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:50 pm

bbms wrote:I'd trade Pekovic and Minny 2014 1st rounder, plus a future protected 1st rounder for Westbrook. Then, I'd move up in the draftboard with our first round picks and draft Marcus Smart, and go forward to 2015 with Durant, Ibaka, Pekovic and the young fellas in Smart, Jackson, Lamb, Jones, Adams, Pleiss and Roberson. That's a lot of talent.

Well, Westbrook has more value than that IMHO. As good as Pek is healty he's always going to have nagging injuries with his size/strength. Big guys like that just do, especially ones that are bruisers down low. A big part of Pek's impact on team rebounding (and defense for that matter) is actually boxing out. He's often grabbing the other team's rebounder while someone else grabs the rebound. People don't usually think of that as defense, but it really is. Pek might be better than anyone in the NBA at boxing out.

Regardless, Minnesota would take that deal in a heartbeat and throw in more value if they're keeping Rubio. Rubio/Westbrook makes a very good back court together. But I can't imagine OKC not taking Rubio back in any Westbrook trade. And I don't think the Thunder want to break up their big 3, even though they haven't won 1 yet they're a top 3 team every year with them basically. It's really hard to break that up.
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Re: Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek?? 

Post#48 » by spearsy23 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:02 pm

Narf wrote:
spearsy23 wrote:Kaman this season was 19.8 and 11.3 per 36 with a 54% TS and he played on the worst team in the Western Conference, and had a much better defensive on/off. There was nothing per 36 showing Pekovic as demonstrably better. That's half my point, cherry picking per 36 stats is ridiculous because players only have value while playing. But if you're just looking at those per 36's, Chris Kaman is every bit the player Pekovic is. :wink:
Is that really what you're going with? +/-?

Kaman on court (points per 100 possesson):
Offense: 102.4, Defense: 108.1, total: -5.7
Team Rebounding %: 47.7%

Off court
Offense: 105.6, Defense: 112.6, total: -7.0
Team Rebounding %: 45.4%
Net: +1.3 points, +1.7% rebounding

Pekovic on court:
Offense: 113.5, Defense: 105.1, total: +8.4
Team Rebounding %: 54.3%

Off court
Offense: 107.8, Defense: 108.3, total: -0.5
Team Rebounding %: 49.8%
Net: +8.9, +4.5% rebounding


Looks like real similar players to me!

By the way, it's a whole lot easier to go from 45% rebounding to 47% then it is to go from 50% to 54%.
It's also a whole lot easier to drop from 112 to 108 then it is to go from 108 to 105 defensively.
Pek is a better defender and rebounder than Kaman, and offensively it's not close. And Kaman did not have a .540 TS%, he had a .537 vs Pek's .582. That's 4.5% lower.

You're right that Kaman is an average center. I very much doubt anyone in this room agrees with you that Kaman = Pekovic.

You either flat out missed the point or are being willfully ignorant. Of course Kaman isn't close to Pekovic.
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek?? 

Post#49 » by Narf » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:20 pm

And with that, I bid you farewell.

Thanks for the conversation gentlemen.
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Re: Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek?? 

Post#50 » by urinesane » Sun May 4, 2014 2:08 am

Why would the Wolves want to do this trade?
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Re: Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek?? 

Post#51 » by bondom34 » Sun May 4, 2014 4:27 am

urinesane wrote:Why would the Wolves want to do this trade?

Sounds good to me! No deal.
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Re: Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek?? 

Post#52 » by BloodyNose » Wed May 14, 2014 1:38 am

durant for chuck hayes landry fields and john salmons + 3 1st round picks
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Re: Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek?? 

Post#53 » by bbms » Wed May 14, 2014 4:22 pm

BloodyNose wrote:durant for chuck hayes landry fields and john salmons + 3 1st round picks


Do you think Toronto would want his worstest contract?
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Re: Any interest in Westbrook for Rubio and Pek?? 

Post#54 » by bondom34 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:11 am

Well, guys I'm not gonna lie, we're not supposed to bump really old threads, so please don't. I've been dying to lock this for forever now, and I'm just gonna do it for the last time. Nope, not trading Russ for anyone. He's ours.
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