Bradley Beal - Part II

doclinkin · Post #721 » by **doclinkin** » Thu May 1, 2014 3:45 pm

I liked Harden in the draft if Stef Curry was gone. But saw Beal as a better fit next to John Wall than the ball-dominant Harden.

Post #722 » by **Ruzious** » Thu May 1, 2014 3:51 pm

Whether people hate Harden or not (and I understand the hate), he's overwhelmingly better than Beal, at this point and likely will continue to be for at least the next few seasons. He'd fit fine with anyone - as shown by his ability to play at a tremendous level with Westbrook and Lin.

DCZards · Post #723 » by **DCZards** » Thu May 1, 2014 6:11 pm

Yeah, got to take Harden over Beal at this point. But just the fact that the 20 year old Double B can even be mentioned in the same sentence as Harden--maybe the best SG in the game--speaks for itself.

Dat2U · Post #724 » by **Dat2U** » Thu May 1, 2014 6:57 pm

This stuff about Harden being overrated is borderline laughable. A TS% above .600 for 3 straight seasons. A PER over 23 the last two seasons. The guy averages over 5 assists a game from the SG position (LOL at him dominating the ball - he's only doing what's asked of him!). He had an ORtg of 120 this year which is elite considering his high usage. Wall had an ORtg of 106. Beal had an ORtg of 103. DAME!

Defensively he's a sieve. Yes, that definitely needs to be worked on. But it's much easier to hide a weak perimeter player than a low post one.

I pray for the day where Beal can be in the same category of player as Harden is as a 24 yr old RIGHT NOW!

CLIN · Post #725 » by **CLIN** » Thu May 1, 2014 7:04 pm

Dat2U wrote:This stuff about Harden being overrated is borderline laughable. A TS% above .600 for 3 straight seasons. A PER over 23 the last two seasons. The guy averages over 5 assists a game from the SG position (LOL at him dominating the ball - he's only doing what's asked of him!). He had an ORtg of 120 this year which is elite considering his high usage. Wall had an ORtg of 106. Beal had an ORtg of 103. DAME!

Defensively he's a sieve. Yes, that definitely needs to be worked on. But it's much easier to hide a weak perimeter player than a low post one.

I pray for the day where Beal can be in the same category of player as Harden is as a 24 yr old RIGHT NOW!

Apologies if you guys have seen this before. Harden's offense is amazing, but his terrible defense is understated.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVYJULACcao[/youtube]

20MexicanosIn1Van · Post #726 » by **20MexicanosIn1Van** » Thu May 1, 2014 7:06 pm

Illmatic21 wrote:Beal was a finalist for the NBA Sportsmanship Award (nominated and voted on by the players). Mike Conley won it:

http://www.nba.com/2014/news/04/24/mike ... hip-award/

What is the criteria for this award? Is it community service or lack of complaining on the court? Now that I think about it, Bradley Beal rarely, if ever, complains about calls. I like that. I haven't heard anything about his charitability though.

DCZards · Post #727 » by **DCZards** » Thu May 1, 2014 7:11 pm

CLIN wrote:Apologies if you guys have seen this before. Harden's offense is amazing, but his terrible defense is understated.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVYJULACcao[/youtube]

Wow. Harden looks lost on D. But the worst part is he looks downright lazy.

tontoz · Post #728 » by **tontoz** » Thu May 1, 2014 7:38 pm

I saw a rather long vid recently of Harden's defensive "highlights" and it was pretty ugly. I didn't watch the whole thing but it was bad. I could have played just as good on d hopping around on 1 leg.

stevemcqueen1 · Post #729 » by **stevemcqueen1** » Thu May 1, 2014 7:41 pm

Beal is better than Harden was at 20. He's going to be better than Harden at 24,

Harden is the best SG in the game only because he's the only All Star caliber SG. For now. Harden is a one way player whose scoring is predicated on flopping and jumping into people and getting bailed out by the refs. Why he's so streaky and why he's typically sucked in the playoffs. He doesn't play defense and they stop calling his BS so much.

He really is a catastrophe on defense too. Houston's perimeter D is an embarrassment and their overall D sucks even though they have Beverly, Asik, and Howard. You wouldn't think that would be possible! Harden breaks their defense.

He's such a lousy iteration of a superstar. In OKC I would credit him as a poor man's Ginobli. In Houston he's a very poor man's Gil. It's like he got depressed and stopped caring about trying to play actual good basketball and win and is only trying to score a ton of points and impress onlookers and make Presti look dumb. I can't stand the way he plays and I am so glad we didn't trade for him.

AFM · Post #730 » by **AFM** » Thu May 1, 2014 9:03 pm

stevemcqueen1 wrote:Beal is better than Harden was at 20. He's going to be better than Harden at 24,

Harden is the best SG in the game only because he's the only All Star caliber SG. For now. Harden is a one way player whose scoring is predicated on flopping and jumping into people and getting bailed out by the refs. Why he's so streaky and why he's typically sucked in the playoffs. He doesn't play defense and they stop calling his BS so much.

He really is a catastrophe on defense too. Houston's perimeter D is an embarrassment and their overall D sucks even though they have Beverly, Asik, and Howard. You wouldn't think that would be possible! Harden breaks their defense.

He's such a lousy iteration of a superstar. In OKC I would credit him as a poor man's Ginobli. In Houston he's a very poor man's Gil. It's like he got depressed and stopped caring about trying to play actual good basketball and win and is only trying to score a ton of points and impress onlookers and make Presti look dumb. I can't stand the way he plays and I am so glad we didn't trade for him.

Truth HOF
He is a fraud of a star IMO

payitforward · Post #731 » by **payitforward** » Thu May 1, 2014 9:36 pm

Severn Hoos wrote:Just because it's fun to ask the question:

What does the board think about Beal vs. Harden right now? Just on gut feel, do you wish Harden was on this team, rather than Beal?

Through four playoff games, here are the stats:

Harden: 27.5 PPG, .350 FG%, .268 3p%, .871 FT%, 5.3 RPG, 5.5 APG, 1.3 SPG, 4.0 PF, 3.8 TO

Beal: 20.5 PPG, .435 FG%, .500 3p%, .905 FT%, 4.5 RPG, 4.3 APG, 0.8 SPG, 3.3 PF, 0.8 TO

Should we mention Beal's defense? Harden's contract? Their comparative age?

I know it's a ridiculously small sample size, but then Harden has been below .400 FG% in 3 of the 5 seasons he has been in the playoffs.

And if you prefer the Advanced stats, they get even uglier for Harden. He loses on PER (20.5 / 15.1), ORtg (128 / 103), DRtg (111 / 119), and WS/48 (.203 / .023). Oh, and despite being so inefficient (the usual knock on Beal), Harden's Usage rate is 30.5 compared to 21.7 for Beal.

Harden's a great player, but I'm not convinced I would trade Beal straight up for him right now. And 2nd year Beal is light years ahead of 2nd year Harden, IMO. I hope we get to see Beal in a Wiz uniform for a long time to come.

"Just because it's fun to ask" -- ? No... you are making a point not asking a question. And you're making it at a Wizards high point and a Rockets low-ish point. And you're looking at a small sample. And you're using the always-reliable hindsight POV. This was a pre-draft trade, no? What if Charlotte had taken Beal? You like MK-G better than Harden?

This is hindsight-based nose-rubbing, and it's pointless. Like you, I hope we see BB in a Wiz uniform for a long time. But Harden had a far better 2d year than Beal overall. .59 TS% vs. Bradley's .50 -- and either about the same or better at everything else. In fairness, however, he was a year older than Beal. So it makes more sense to compare his rookie year to Beal's second year. It's closer, but Harden was still better.

As soon as Beal actually fulfills his extraordinary potential -- and I have a lot of hope he will -- and becomes as good a player as James Harden, maybe even better, we can crow. Right now that's not the case.

This is independent of the idea of trading one for the other, on the other hand -- Harden costs much more.

Dat2U · Post #732 » by **Dat2U** » Thu May 1, 2014 9:39 pm

stevemcqueen1 wrote:Beal is better than Harden was at 20. He's going to be better than Harden at 24,

Harden is the best SG in the game only because he's the only All Star caliber SG. For now. Harden is a one way player whose scoring is predicated on flopping and jumping into people and getting bailed out by the refs. Why he's so streaky and why he's typically sucked in the playoffs. He doesn't play defense and they stop calling his BS so much.

He really is a catastrophe on defense too. Houston's perimeter D is an embarrassment and their overall D sucks even though they have Beverly, Asik, and Howard. You wouldn't think that would be possible! Harden breaks their defense.

He's such a lousy iteration of a superstar. In OKC I would credit him as a poor man's Ginobli. In Houston he's a very poor man's Gil. It's like he got depressed and stopped caring about trying to play actual good basketball and win and is only trying to score a ton of points and impress onlookers and make Presti look dumb. I can't stand the way he plays and I am so glad we didn't trade for him.

Reading this I would have sworn he did something personally to you. :lol:

I see a lot of opinion and hyperbole but light on actual facts. I think his defense can certainly be criticized but offensively he's one of the top 5 players in the league and I don't think that can really be questioned.

payitforward · Post #733 » by **payitforward** » Thu May 1, 2014 9:39 pm

AFM wrote:
stevemcqueen1 wrote:Beal is better than Harden was at 20. He's going to be better than Harden at 24,

Hope so, but neither of these is exactly an empirical statement, is it?

Harden was in college at 20, so how are you managing the comparison? And we won't know what Beal will be at 24 until he's actually 24 -- or do you have a crystal ball?

mhd · Post #734 » by **mhd** » Thu May 1, 2014 10:19 pm

Dat2U wrote:This stuff about Harden being overrated is borderline laughable. A TS% above .600 for 3 straight seasons. A PER over 23 the last two seasons. The guy averages over 5 assists a game from the SG position (LOL at him dominating the ball - he's only doing what's asked of him!). He had an ORtg of 120 this year which is elite considering his high usage. Wall had an ORtg of 106. Beal had an ORtg of 103. DAME!

Defensively he's a sieve. Yes, that definitely needs to be worked on. But it's much easier to hide a weak perimeter player than a low post one.

I pray for the day where Beal can be in the same category of player as Harden is as a 24 yr old RIGHT NOW!

I think Jamison might be a better defender than Harden is. Harden was just flat out LAZY in the playoffs on defense. Is it part of Houston's system?

TGW · Post #735 » by **TGW** » Thu May 1, 2014 10:34 pm

mhd wrote:
Dat2U wrote:This stuff about Harden being overrated is borderline laughable. A TS% above .600 for 3 straight seasons. A PER over 23 the last two seasons. The guy averages over 5 assists a game from the SG position (LOL at him dominating the ball - he's only doing what's asked of him!). He had an ORtg of 120 this year which is elite considering his high usage. Wall had an ORtg of 106. Beal had an ORtg of 103. DAME!

Defensively he's a sieve. Yes, that definitely needs to be worked on. But it's much easier to hide a weak perimeter player than a low post one.

I pray for the day where Beal can be in the same category of player as Harden is as a 24 yr old RIGHT NOW!

I think Jamison might be a better defender than Harden is. Harden was just flat out LAZY in the playoffs on defense. Is it part of Houston's system?

It might be. No one on Houston (that includes Howard) play good defense. I mean not one.

tontoz · Post #736 » by **tontoz** » Thu May 1, 2014 11:08 pm

I haven't watched Houston hardly at all but i have seem some commentary from Houston fans. Harden has definitely gotten mixed reviews there. A lot of commentary about his selfishness and total indifference to defense.

Post #737 » by **nate33** » Fri May 2, 2014 12:19 am

Dat2U wrote:This stuff about Harden being overrated is borderline laughable. A TS% above .600 for 3 straight seasons. A PER over 23 the last two seasons. The guy averages over 5 assists a game from the SG position (LOL at him dominating the ball - he's only doing what's asked of him!). He had an ORtg of 120 this year which is elite considering his high usage. Wall had an ORtg of 106. Beal had an ORtg of 103. DAME!

Defensively he's a sieve. Yes, that definitely needs to be worked on. But it's much easier to hide a weak perimeter player than a low post one.

I pray for the day where Beal can be in the same category of player as Harden is as a 24 yr old RIGHT NOW!

Statistically, there's no denying that Harden is a monster in the regular season. However, I do think there is some substance to the allegation that he's an empty stat guy. His game is predicated on drawing a lot of cheap fouls and those fouls might be a little harder to draw in the playoffs.

I note that, last year, his regular season PER and TS% were 23.0 and .600 respectively. In the playoffs, they dipped to 20.8 and .548. This year his regular season PER and TS% were 23.5 and .618; and in the playoffs, they dipped to 15.2 and .471.

His awful defense is a well-known issue. That can really hurt in the playoffs when attention to detail is paramount.

He is still better than Beal at this point, but he's no Gilbert Arenas, even if his numbers look similar.

Kanyewest · Post #738 » by **Kanyewest** » Fri May 2, 2014 5:05 pm

Dat2U wrote:
Reading this I would have sworn he did something personally to you.

I see a lot of opinion and hyperbole but light on actual facts. I think his defense can certainly be criticized but offensively he's one of the top 5 players in the league and I don't think that can really be questioned.

It actually might be pretty close that he's in the top 5. You've got LeBron, Durant, Paul, Curry, and Love. But yeah, he is certainly the best shooting guard offensively in the league.

deneem4 · Post #739 » by **deneem4** » Sat May 3, 2014 12:45 pm

Harden played with 2 top 10 players for multiple seasons..and was considered as a 3rd option when on the floor... His okc stats isn't fair to compare to Beals because beal always have the best defenders guarding him..
Now harden is a better ball handler and facilitator but I think beal can build on that...he's only 20

Illmatic12 · Post #740 » by **Illmatic12** » Sat May 3, 2014 1:43 pm

deneem4 wrote:Harden played with 2 top 10 players for multiple seasons..and was considered as a 3rd option when on the floor... His okc stats isn't fair to compare to Beals because beal always have the best defenders guarding him..
Now harden is a better ball handler and facilitator but I think beal can build on that...he's only 20

Harden was a better ballhandler than Beal at age 20. Yeah Harden was overshadowed his first few years, but people forget he was 1st team All-American in college and a 3rd overall pick himself. The guy is/was extremely talented from a young age.

Beal will never have JH ballhandling ability. But Harden will never have Beal's jumpshot, or defense.