Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong

[montestewart]

Debunked means admitted? Who knew?

[payitforward]

Hands, were you alive way back in 2010?

How can you say "they tanked to get that #1"??? Far from it. They made a bunch of moves one year earlier w/ the goal of going deep in the playoffs based on veterans -- presumably because their departing owner wanted a last hurrah in his dotage. Bad moves, and I think we probably all hated them -- after all, we're NOT in our dotage!

That didn't work out at all -- and then we held a fire sale towards the end of a lost season -- w/ a no-future roster and a new owner coming on board. There was no planned "tank" -- the opposite.

Moreover, "Reality is..." (to use your words) that we didn't "get" that pick. We got a high pick, yes, we were an awful team. But the ping pong balls gave us #1. You can't "plan" to have the ping pong balls catapult you.

In other words, "Reality is" that we made awful moves for awful reasons, failed, then had the dice roll in our direction. Chance favored us. And, what if we'd gotten #2 instead of #1. Likely we'd have picked Turner. Then the following year, we could have followed your idea and added Marcus Morris.

Put your pick of Alex Len in the mix, and maybe we'd have had the #1 in 2014? It's all part of the plan.

Thanks for setting the record straight. Someone else trying to rewrite history in their own narrative. But that's hands11 MO. He's always ahead of the curve, guiding us lowly idiots towards perfect fandom.

Not sure what happened to Jan Vesely though. According to hands11, it was Jan NOT John Wall that would soon be the heart and soul of the Wizards. I guess we can't always have 20/20 foresight.

Spin Spin Spin. Setting the record straight

I know its tough for you guys to swallow all the wrong that you have spewed since in fact, the team has turned it around since Ted took over and I was pointing that out all along the way.

And just because dumping expensive players worked well for a transfer of the team doesn't mean along with that they weren't also calculating they would get a high pick and rebuild through the draft. The two are not mutually exclusive. Actually, it common sense they work well together. Of course getting a high pick was part of that calculation and of course they would want to clean up their cap as well. The owner laid it out in his detail plan that he not only put in writing but spoke about many times. The same plan many of you attacked as BS.

Hell, I was talking about waiting for the day this would happens even before Abe passed. I was hoping Ted would rebuild properly. And I was hoping EG would prove to be a better GM under Ted then he was under Abe. Its a front office. Not just a GM. GMs mostly execute the plan inked by the owner. Time frame. Max salaries. You know I detailed all of this lots of times and you disagreed all along the way. This is not rewriting anything. You have been wrong. I have been right. Be a man and own up.

Nice try. Actually, no.. your spin here and attempt to character assassinate me to cover up for how wrong you have been is weak.

Actually, I fully expected this would happen and have talked with other board members about expecting it so post like this only reenforce my ability to predict what will happen next.

The always wrong side have been run into a corner. They aren't going to just turn around and give props to the people that were getting it right and going against the flow. Specially people like me who were so vocal about it. No, they will try to deflect and spin things and clown the board with disinformation.

You guys should go into politics or go to work for Fox Noise.

I want to congratulate you on your improved spelling, Hands. I really think if you work on improving your memory too you could start writing some interesting posts.

[milellie111]

Abe Pollin had a direct bearing on the moves Grunfeld made. We saw a distinct change in vision when Ted took over the helm. The production on the court now has come to fruition. That alone is evidence that Ernie was not to blame.

Ernie is being wrongly blamed for the mess that festered on for years but you have to go higher and take a look at ownership. A GM can't manage if he isn't properly allowed to. Same issue with the Redskins. It is unfair to judge Grunfeld from the past. An accurate assessment of his work is the present.

Ernie made it clear who he reported to which in turn influenced many moves that didn't pan out. Skip to 2:05:


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnk_gB-yrOE[/youtube]

Thats the framing of things I have laid out repeatedly so yes, I agree Milli.

What is rare in this scenario that we actually had an opportunity to see a GM under one owner be allowed to stay around longer enough to be judge under a different owner. From tank, two years wouldn't be enough and with EGs contract coming up, we might not be giving a chance to see this play out.

Abe plus EG - Ted plus EG.... solve for EG...solve for Owner

This is what made my position in the debate so hard and so risky. The hater had all the poor data to point to and all I had was speculation that required EG being allow to stick around long enough to get past the bad record and produce a good record. Two years wasn't going to be enough. That was all part of the tear down where you would expect a bad record. Then there was year three where the data should have turned north but was derailed by Wall being injured. And the haters road this like a new ride at 6 flags. PIFF taking the lead and others like DAT and Niv along for the ride on his coat tails. It was all about the data and the data wasn't good but I argued my view regardless. I would make a positive projection and it would get slammed by backward looking data and the hoard of doom and gloomers.

My position was, but the team is making a lot of progress. The record will be the last thing to improve. They are better then their record.

Then the data started to turn. We get fans like Milli projecting positive things. EG for GM of the year. And what do the doom and gloomers do.... attack him and call him a troll over and over and over.

Hell, I wasn't even willing to go with GM of the year but Milli stuck his neck out and took the heat head on.

But you know what. In the end, the people that lost of the ones that haven't enjoyed the last 4 years. They missed the entire process hating and looking to trade players like Nene at every turn. Getting caught up in Fart. Hating the Nene trade. Hating the Lewis for TA and Okafor trade. Seeing everything as negative all the time. And now some clown posting .. well if they dont win a title its a failure...

I love basketball and what I love more is the team that is my home team building a respectable roster that wins. I have that and the 4 four years have been some of the best years of mine being a fan of this franchise.

Four years. Not 24 games.

People can deny all they want, but the facts are there that Grunfeld is a much better GM under Ted than Abe. Denying this fact is admitting you know nothing about the game of basketball. Owners have a powerful influence on moves that are made. Folks can flame me all they want, but it's obvious that many are upset Ernie is succeeding with this current roster and has found a coach who can maximize the talent from this squad.

They can present all the facts they want about Jan and Maynor being busts, yet they never focus on arguably the best point guard in the league that was drafted and other good smart moves that were made. The good far outweighs the bad.

Ernie didn't clean up his own mess. He cleaned up Abe's mess.

[Higga]

Ernie is hit or miss in the draft but he's been pretty solid when it comes to making trades and FA signings.

[dckingsfan]

Abe Pollin had a direct bearing on the moves Grunfeld made. We saw a distinct change in vision when Ted took over the helm. The production on the court now has come to fruition. That alone is evidence that Ernie was not to blame.

Ernie is being wrongly blamed for the mess that festered on for years but you have to go higher and take a look at ownership. A GM can't manage if he isn't properly allowed to. Same issue with the Redskins. It is unfair to judge Grunfeld from the past. An accurate assessment of his work is the present.

Ernie made it clear who he reported to which in turn influenced many moves that didn't pan out. Skip to 2:05:


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnk_gB-yrOE[/youtube]

Thats the framing of things I have laid out repeatedly so yes, I agree Milli.

What is rare in this scenario that we actually had an opportunity to see a GM under one owner be allowed to stay around longer enough to be judge under a different owner. From tank, two years wouldn't be enough and with EGs contract coming up, we might not be giving a chance to see this play out.

Abe plus EG - Ted plus EG.... solve for EG...solve for Owner

This is what made my position in the debate so hard and so risky. The hater had all the poor data to point to and all I had was speculation that required EG being allow to stick around long enough to get past the bad record and produce a good record. Two years wasn't going to be enough. That was all part of the tear down where you would expect a bad record. Then there was year three where the data should have turned north but was derailed by Wall being injured. And the haters road this like a new ride at 6 flags. PIFF taking the lead and others like DAT and Niv along for the ride on his coat tails. It was all about the data and the data wasn't good but I argued my view regardless. I would make a positive projection and it would get slammed by backward looking data and the hoard of doom and gloomers.

My position was, but the team is making a lot of progress. The record will be the last thing to improve. They are better then their record.

Then the data started to turn. We get fans like Milli projecting positive things. EG for GM of the year. And what do the doom and gloomers do.... attack him and call him a troll over and over and over.

Hell, I wasn't even willing to go with GM of the year but Milli stuck his neck out and took the heat head on.

But you know what. In the end, the people that lost of the ones that haven't enjoyed the last 4 years. They missed the entire process hating and looking to trade players like Nene at every turn. Getting caught up in Fart. Hating the Nene trade. Hating the Lewis for TA and Okafor trade. Seeing everything as negative all the time. And now some clown posting .. well if they dont win a title its a failure...

I love basketball and what I love more is the team that is my home team building a respectable roster that wins. I have that and the 4 four years have been some of the best years of mine being a fan of this franchise.

Four years. Not 24 games.

People can deny all they want, but the facts are there that Grunfeld is a much better GM under Ted than Abe. Denying this fact is admitting you know nothing about the game of basketball. Owners have a powerful influence on moves that are made. Folks can flame me all they want, but it's obvious that many are upset Ernie is succeeding with this current roster and has found a coach who can maximize the talent from this squad.

They can present all the facts they want about Jan and Maynor being busts, yet they never focus on arguably the best point guard in the league that was drafted and other good smart moves that were made. The good far outweighs the bad.

Ernie didn't clean up his own mess. He cleaned up Abe's mess.

Guess you want to ignore the other teams where he was the GM... sigh

[milellie111]

Thats the framing of things I have laid out repeatedly so yes, I agree Milli.

What is rare in this scenario that we actually had an opportunity to see a GM under one owner be allowed to stay around longer enough to be judge under a different owner. From tank, two years wouldn't be enough and with EGs contract coming up, we might not be giving a chance to see this play out.

Abe plus EG - Ted plus EG.... solve for EG...solve for Owner

This is what made my position in the debate so hard and so risky. The hater had all the poor data to point to and all I had was speculation that required EG being allow to stick around long enough to get past the bad record and produce a good record. Two years wasn't going to be enough. That was all part of the tear down where you would expect a bad record. Then there was year three where the data should have turned north but was derailed by Wall being injured. And the haters road this like a new ride at 6 flags. PIFF taking the lead and others like DAT and Niv along for the ride on his coat tails. It was all about the data and the data wasn't good but I argued my view regardless. I would make a positive projection and it would get slammed by backward looking data and the hoard of doom and gloomers.

My position was, but the team is making a lot of progress. The record will be the last thing to improve. They are better then their record.

Then the data started to turn. We get fans like Milli projecting positive things. EG for GM of the year. And what do the doom and gloomers do.... attack him and call him a troll over and over and over.

Hell, I wasn't even willing to go with GM of the year but Milli stuck his neck out and took the heat head on.

But you know what. In the end, the people that lost of the ones that haven't enjoyed the last 4 years. They missed the entire process hating and looking to trade players like Nene at every turn. Getting caught up in Fart. Hating the Nene trade. Hating the Lewis for TA and Okafor trade. Seeing everything as negative all the time. And now some clown posting .. well if they dont win a title its a failure...

I love basketball and what I love more is the team that is my home team building a respectable roster that wins. I have that and the 4 four years have been some of the best years of mine being a fan of this franchise.

Four years. Not 24 games.

People can deny all they want, but the facts are there that Grunfeld is a much better GM under Ted than Abe. Denying this fact is admitting you know nothing about the game of basketball. Owners have a powerful influence on moves that are made. Folks can flame me all they want, but it's obvious that many are upset Ernie is succeeding with this current roster and has found a coach who can maximize the talent from this squad.

They can present all the facts they want about Jan and Maynor being busts, yet they never focus on arguably the best point guard in the league that was drafted and other good smart moves that were made. The good far outweighs the bad.

Ernie didn't clean up his own mess. He cleaned up Abe's mess.

Guess you want to ignore the other teams where he was the GM... sigh

Why do I care about other teams in the past? All I care about is his work with the Wizards, specifically within the past couple of seasons.

For example, who bashes a coach who failed with another team years ago but currently has another team playing out of it's mind and winning?

[dckingsfan]

People can deny all they want, but the facts are there that Grunfeld is a much better GM under Ted than Abe. Denying this fact is admitting you know nothing about the game of basketball. Owners have a powerful influence on moves that are made. Folks can flame me all they want, but it's obvious that many are upset Ernie is succeeding with this current roster and has found a coach who can maximize the talent from this squad.

They can present all the facts they want about Jan and Maynor being busts, yet they never focus on arguably the best point guard in the league that was drafted and other good smart moves that were made. The good far outweighs the bad.

Ernie didn't clean up his own mess. He cleaned up Abe's mess.

Guess you want to ignore the other teams where he was the GM... sigh

Why do I care about other teams in the past? All I care about is his work with the Wizards, specifically within the past couple of seasons.

For example, who bashes a coach who failed with another team years ago but currently has another team playing out of it's mind and winning?

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”
― Edmund Burke

I know, I know, what team does Edmund Burke play for...

[milellie111]

Guess you want to ignore the other teams where he was the GM... sigh

I like to live in the present. Forgive and forget, especially if the guy has redeemed himself


Why do I care about other teams in the past? All I care about is his work with the Wizards, specifically within the past couple of seasons.

For example, who bashes a coach who failed with another team years ago but currently has another team playing out of it's mind and winning?

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”
― Edmund Burke

I know, I know, what team does Edmund Burke play for...

[hands11]

People can deny all they want, but the facts are there that Grunfeld is a much better GM under Ted than Abe. Denying this fact is admitting you know nothing about the game of basketball. Owners have a powerful influence on moves that are made. Folks can flame me all they want, but it's obvious that many are upset Ernie is succeeding with this current roster and has found a coach who can maximize the talent from this squad.

They can present all the facts they want about Jan and Maynor being busts, yet they never focus on arguably the best point guard in the league that was drafted and other good smart moves that were made. The good far outweighs the bad.

Ernie didn't clean up his own mess. He cleaned up Abe's mess.

Guess you want to ignore the other teams where he was the GM... sigh

Why do I care about other teams in the past? All I care about is his work with the Wizards, specifically within the past couple of seasons.

For example, who bashes a coach who failed with another team years ago but currently has another team playing out of it's mind and winning?

Right.

Do I care about Rasuals career over what he is doing with this team and this combination of player ?

Do I care what TA did over his career or what he did with this team last year ?

Milli... they are just trolling themselves. They are the ones that missed the rebuild and missed enjoying it and they are still missing it. They can't fully enjoy this like we are. Its like they just won and all paid vacation to a tropical island but they have to go with the girl that dumped them for a better option and he is coming along as well as the few people that warned them it was going to happen because they were being idiots. LOL

[hands11]

.

[hands11]

Guess you want to ignore the other teams where he was the GM... sigh

Why do I care about other teams in the past? All I care about is his work with the Wizards, specifically within the past couple of seasons.

For example, who bashes a coach who failed with another team years ago but currently has another team playing out of it's mind and winning?

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”
― Edmund Burke

I know, I know, what team does Edmund Burke play for...

[montestewart]

Why do I care about other teams in the past? All I care about is his work with the Wizards, specifically within the past couple of seasons.

For example, who bashes a coach who failed with another team years ago but currently has another team playing out of it's mind and winning?

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”
― Edmund Burke

I know, I know, what team does Edmund Burke play for...

Is this Alanis Morrisette irony?

Worth noting that most sources attribute the history quote and its variations first to George Santayana.

[FreeBalling]

I can see EG doing this Friday night in the face of his critics to tie the best start in franchise history. Can't change the past. However, we can direct the future to meet our goals.


******http://youtu.be/vzgP8GbhQJw?t=23s******




Anyone need some TABASCO sauce?

[hands11]

Thats the framing of things I have laid out repeatedly so yes, I agree Milli.

What is rare in this scenario that we actually had an opportunity to see a GM under one owner be allowed to stay around longer enough to be judge under a different owner. From tank, two years wouldn't be enough and with EGs contract coming up, we might not be giving a chance to see this play out.

Abe plus EG - Ted plus EG.... solve for EG...solve for Owner

This is what made my position in the debate so hard and so risky. The hater had all the poor data to point to and all I had was speculation that required EG being allow to stick around long enough to get past the bad record and produce a good record. Two years wasn't going to be enough. That was all part of the tear down where you would expect a bad record. Then there was year three where the data should have turned north but was derailed by Wall being injured. And the haters road this like a new ride at 6 flags. PIFF taking the lead and others like DAT and Niv along for the ride on his coat tails. It was all about the data and the data wasn't good but I argued my view regardless. I would make a positive projection and it would get slammed by backward looking data and the hoard of doom and gloomers.

My position was, but the team is making a lot of progress. The record will be the last thing to improve. They are better then their record.

Then the data started to turn. We get fans like Milli projecting positive things. EG for GM of the year. And what do the doom and gloomers do.... attack him and call him a troll over and over and over.

Hell, I wasn't even willing to go with GM of the year but Milli stuck his neck out and took the heat head on.

But you know what. In the end, the people that lost of the ones that haven't enjoyed the last 4 years. They missed the entire process hating and looking to trade players like Nene at every turn. Getting caught up in Fart. Hating the Nene trade. Hating the Lewis for TA and Okafor trade. Seeing everything as negative all the time. And now some clown posting .. well if they dont win a title its a failure...

I love basketball and what I love more is the team that is my home team building a respectable roster that wins. I have that and the 4 four years have been some of the best years of mine being a fan of this franchise.

Four years. Not 24 games.

People can deny all they want, but the facts are there that Grunfeld is a much better GM under Ted than Abe. Denying this fact is admitting you know nothing about the game of basketball. Owners have a powerful influence on moves that are made. Folks can flame me all they want, but it's obvious that many are upset Ernie is succeeding with this current roster and has found a coach who can maximize the talent from this squad.

They can present all the facts they want about Jan and Maynor being busts, yet they never focus on arguably the best point guard in the league that was drafted and other good smart moves that were made. The good far outweighs the bad.

Ernie didn't clean up his own mess. He cleaned up Abe's mess.

Guess you want to ignore the other teams where he was the GM... sigh

How important is that to our current situation. Maybe you could help us understand your logic by ranking these things. How important in percentages are the following to your view of the current team and its future. You seem to want to bring up information I find to have very little importance to the current situation. I would be interested in understanding why you feel that way.

TED/EGs record the last two years. They did a rebuild via the draft and rebuilds like that regularly lead to a lot of loses the first two year min. And now we can put those first two years in context by seeing where it ended up.

TED/EG record the entire time together. Weighting and why that is important compared to the above.

EG the entire time he was here with Ted and Abe

EGs entire career including other teams.

Would be interesting in your weighting on these things totally 100% as they pertain to the current team and its future.

[Brenice]

Haters vs Admirers

They both look at something they couldn't do or didn't do.

One looks at their own weakness and admires someone's strength in that area.

The other looks at their own weakness and hates someone's strength in that area.

I am not disciplined enough to go to the gym and work out like a lot of people. I admire those people. I don't hate on them.

Ernie's improvement under Ted is admirable. We should show improvement. We want chemistry on the court but underestimate front office chemistry.

Timing is everything. The time to fire Ernie was when Ted first acquired the team. You don't fire a man who has shown iimprovement. You either admire his work or hate it. But in the end, whichever side you are on, you are saying something about yourself.

[JudBuchler]

i will say this, grunfield made a great move by not resigning that bum trevor ariza, he looks like total trash in houston, Pierce is a better player, and quite frankly rasual butler fills in trevor arizas role

[closg00]

Grunfeld tried to resign TA, but he chose Houston.

Grunfeld supporters main justification for keeping him on as GM for life is that.

A. He is excellent at cleaning up his own mistakes.

B. So what if he can't draft, see A.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[montestewart]

And you there, on the sidelines, hoping no one will notice, who are you kidding? Think we can't tell something about you too? There are no sidelines here but the light and dark fires of hell! When you reach that love-hate fork in the road, take it! Get in the game!

[milellie111]

Grunfeld tried to resign TA, but he chose Houston.

Grunfeld supporters main justification for keeping him on as GM for life is that.

A. He is excellent at cleaning up his own mistakes.

B. So what if he can't draft, see A.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

So you are either saying that:

A. There are perfect GM's in the NBA who make no mistakes because hey, there are perfect people in this world

or

B. If someone makes a mistake, cleaning it up is looked upon as negative

[fishercob]

Ted and Ernie spiking the football on selling the second rounder to make way for Rasual Butler, via the independent reporting of J. Michael at CSN.

Truth of the matter is that it doesn't bother me that much. When they get criticized harshly in the blogosphere for something, you can only expect them to gloat a little bit when it turns out right.

From a PR standpoint, the best thing the Wiz could do is to explain where that $2M went and how they put it to work. Something to the effect of, "no, this didn't buy Ted another vacation hom. we made capital improvements to the Verizon Center, and hired these four trainers and consultants." Etc.