Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE)

[R-DAWG]

This is true - had we had Tyson, exactly the type of player the Cavs need, we would be able to get value from them to get a Reggie Jackson. This is why moving Tyson for the sake of moving him for pennies on the dollar was a mistake.

I don't know why you like to play the coulda shoulda woulda game to prove a point. What makes you think Tyson would have stayed healthy after being injury prone all of last year?

And he's likely wrong. Someone is probably eating AV's contract in this situation and that's a bad deal -- dude is less healthy than Grant Hill in his prime.

I know he talks about doing all this other stuff to get him without AV but it's a stretch. It'd have required AV now in all likelihood OR you'd have to convince the Cavs that Tyson was better than AV before they gave him the big extension. Which is a long shot. Tyson was atrocious last season. And clearly the Cavs wanted to invest in AV so they like him/want him.

why would it require AV? They had the expiring deals to do it without him.

[K_ick_God]

I don't know why you like to play the coulda shoulda woulda game to prove a point. What makes you think Tyson would have stayed healthy after being injury prone all of last year?

And he's likely wrong. Someone is probably eating AV's contract in this situation and that's a bad deal -- dude is less healthy than Grant Hill in his prime.

I know he talks about doing all this other stuff to get him without AV but it's a stretch. It'd have required AV now in all likelihood OR you'd have to convince the Cavs that Tyson was better than AV before they gave him the big extension. Which is a long shot. Tyson was atrocious last season. And clearly the Cavs wanted to invest in AV so they like him/want him.

why would it require AV? They had the expiring deals to do it without him.

I was wrong about that but I've addressed it. Bogans and Thompson/Haywood for Tyson only makes sense now. Not then. Playing Tyson by AV, about to give AV a $10M extension, would have not flown then.

You're applying 20-20 hindsight and then it all fits together. I don't know what else to tell you if you can't see that.

Tyson is not a long-term solution and he's expensive, so why squander their assets on him? Because they knew AV would get hurt again? That makes sense -- I'm sure they knew AV would go down again, because that's why they gave him $30M to please LeBron or themselves or whatever. They want Mozgov because he's young and affordable and can actually block shots and maybe score.

Tyson is a fine emergency solution now but that doesn't apply back then.

Anywho, if people are not going to admit to their clear MMQB, 20-20 hindsight, I'm going to have to break out the movie references and just refer to this as what it is -- a sequel of John Connor's dad going back in time to warn the Cavs that they have to avoid AV's contract and/or use their assets on a center who performed badly, is skinny and basically crappy and old ... 3 months before they knew they might ever need his playing-for-contract malnourished rearend. And 3 months before they could see their D sucks and they are basically a mediocre team.

Oh and never mind that Tyson's greatest strength, rebounding, is entirely covered by Love. He's probably the one guy who could make Tyson's phony rebound numbers disappear because his girth beats Tyson's length. Pause.

We need some T-1 and T-2 avatars for the Knicks board naysayers.

Arnold is R-DAWG and John Connor is Gilbert. "You must take Tyson Chandler now. Negative, he will be better this year playing for money and Anderson Varejao will get hurt again even though he brings a lot of the same useless big man qualities to your team. Do it. Now. Trade your best assets for him even though he cannot score. Come with me if you want to win. You will suck. You will lose LeBron again. The machines become self-aware and strike against man." (Arnold voice of course)



Corny but good.

[Hijinks]

just read about the trade. first thought. we could`ve gotten more. last year we were talking about 1st rounders for shump. and now we trade him with jr and all we get is some unknown players and a 2019 2nd rounder??? i know, nobody wants jr. but his contract is solid and he can contribute on a winning team. i am somewhat disappointed and am starting to question phils plan.

[ibraheim718]

If we are lucky enough to draft Okafor, I'd go after a PF that can watch his back like Mislap, Taj Gibson, Amir Johnson, David West, etc. He's a special guy so we would need to be more careful on who to pair next to him, but a combo that works would pay off

Then use the most of whats left on the backcourt.

See I think the other way I want someone to take the defensive pressure away from him. Phil likes to play big. So maybe a Asik next to Okafor. Bynum/Gasol type combo.

I prefer playing Jah at the 4 also.. get a center who cleans the glass and protects the rim.

[ibraheim718]

How much value is on a 5-31 team? Hint: Not much. People need to get over what we got back. (although we should keep Alex Kirk and give him a little burn)

[GONYK]

just read about the trade. first thought. we could`ve gotten more. last year we were talking about 1st rounders for shump. and now we trade him with jr and all we get is some unknown players and a 2019 2nd rounder??? i know, nobody wants jr. but his contract is solid and he can contribute on a winning team. i am somewhat disappointed and am starting to question phils plan.

The things people talk about on a message board are not accurate reflections of conditions in the real world.

[kej718]

I can't wait for the draft. Hopefully it will all be worth it.

[Hijinks]

just read about the trade. first thought. we could`ve gotten more. last year we were talking about 1st rounders for shump. and now we trade him with jr and all we get is some unknown players and a 2019 2nd rounder??? i know, nobody wants jr. but his contract is solid and he can contribute on a winning team. i am somewhat disappointed and am starting to question phils plan.

The things people talk about on a message board are not accurate reflections of conditions in the real world.

wasn't there talks between knicks and okc last trade deadline about a late 1st rounder for shump, though?

[GONYK]

just read about the trade. first thought. we could`ve gotten more. last year we were talking about 1st rounders for shump. and now we trade him with jr and all we get is some unknown players and a 2019 2nd rounder??? i know, nobody wants jr. but his contract is solid and he can contribute on a winning team. i am somewhat disappointed and am starting to question phils plan.

The things people talk about on a message board are not accurate reflections of conditions in the real world.

wasn't there talks between knicks and okc last trade deadline about a late 1st rounder for shump, though?

There were rumors, yes. That was before Shump had another disappointing season, injury and entered the final year of his rookie deal.

If he was only worth the 29th pick in the NBA draft before all that, what evidence is there that his value held steady after all that?

On top of that, you have to consider what JR's value is. If it is a major negative, and under any other circumstance, we would need to include a 1st to get rid of him, then we essentially did that by including Shump.

So in a hypothetical world, would you rather trade Shump or the 29th pick to get rid of JR?

[Hijinks]

The things people talk about on a message board are not accurate reflections of conditions in the real world.

wasn't there talks between knicks and okc last trade deadline about a late 1st rounder for shump, though?

There were rumors, yes. That was before Shump had another disappointing season, injury and entered the final year of his rookie deal.

If he was only worth the 29th pick in the NBA draft before all that, what evidence is there that his value held steady after all that?

On top of that, you have to consider what JR's value is. If it is a major negative, and under any other circumstance, we would need to include a 1st to get rid of him, then we essentially did that by including Shump.

So in a hypothetical world, would you rather trade Shump or the 29th pick to get rid of JR?

you won't change my mind. i still want a 1st rounder!

the players we got probably all suck, so this whole trade is about getting rid of JR and his next year money. as i said, i hope phil has a plan in place to use it on something really good.

[vallen]

wasn't there talks between knicks and okc last trade deadline about a late 1st rounder for shump, though?

There were rumors, yes. That was before Shump had another disappointing season, injury and entered the final year of his rookie deal.

If he was only worth the 29th pick in the NBA draft before all that, what evidence is there that his value held steady after all that?

On top of that, you have to consider what JR's value is. If it is a major negative, and under any other circumstance, we would need to include a 1st to get rid of him, then we essentially did that by including Shump.

So in a hypothetical world, would you rather trade Shump or the 29th pick to get rid of JR?

you won't change my mind. i still want a 1st rounder!

the players we got probably all suck, so this whole trade is about getting rid of JR and his next year money. as i said, i hope phil has a plan in place to use it on something really good.

well his second order of business is to get rid of everyone he acquired during his first order of business. when you realize that, you realize he doesnt really seem to have a plan.

[Hijinks]

There were rumors, yes. That was before Shump had another disappointing season, injury and entered the final year of his rookie deal.

If he was only worth the 29th pick in the NBA draft before all that, what evidence is there that his value held steady after all that?

On top of that, you have to consider what JR's value is. If it is a major negative, and under any other circumstance, we would need to include a 1st to get rid of him, then we essentially did that by including Shump.

So in a hypothetical world, would you rather trade Shump or the 29th pick to get rid of JR?

you won't change my mind. i still want a 1st rounder!

the players we got probably all suck, so this whole trade is about getting rid of JR and his next year money. as i said, i hope phil has a plan in place to use it on something really good.

well his second order of business is to get rid of everyone he acquired during his first order of business. when you realize that, you realize he doesnt really seem to have a plan.

that's what really is troubling me right now. i want to trust him and his philosophy, but at the same time there are a lot of questions that need to be answered come offseason.

[Nyk4lyfe]

Knicks Potential Plan:

1) Renounce rights to Quincy Acy, Amare Stoudemire, Andrea Bargnani, Jason Smith (this is obvious for cap hold purposes)

2) Pick up Prigionis final year (he's only 1.7mil and we need cheap bench depth) and Cleanthony Early's team option

3) Don't renounce Cole Aldrich. His cap hold is only about 950k. I believe we can hold on to him, sign whatever stars we need and THEN negotiate with him because we have bird rights on him. He will probably ask for more than 950k but that's fine because by then we wont need cap space (can someone confirm whether this is possible?)

4) Draft Jahlil Okafor (I know this is unlikely but let's assume Knicks get #1 pick so we can have the most conservative estimate of cap space for free agency). The #1 pick last year received $5,510,640 but because cap will go up, lets assume it will be an even $5,800,000. Obviously there's a good chance we end up with a lower pick, I'd be cool with Towns too.

Payroll:

Carmelo Anthony: $22,875,000
Jose Calderon: $7,402,812
Jahill Okafor: $5,800,000
Pablo Prigioni: $1,734,572
Tim Hardaway Jr: $1,675,320
Cleanthony Early: $845,059
Cole Aldrich (cap hold): $950,000
6 Cap Holds: $525,093 x 6 = $3,150,558

Projected Total: $44,433,321
Projected Salary Cap: $68,000,000 (this is not set in stone but it appears there will be a good bump in cap this summer)
Projected Salary Space: $23,566,679

5) Sign Wesley Matthews ($10 mil a year) and DeAndre Jordan ($14 mil a year). I know the projected cap is $23,566,679 and the contracts I just said is $24mil but thats the AVERAGE salary over the span of a few years. Their first year's salary will be a good amount less than $24mil and there will be raises every year. In fact, when you factor in the BASE salary and the fact that each player we sign gets rid of one cap hold, we can actually pay these guys a bit more if need be.

I would have loved to say Butler and Gasol but I don't see any player who would get the max either way on contenders come over here for the same money (or even less money cause of that extra year they can get in their original team).

6) Even once we use all our cap space (or most of it), I believe we still get to use our MLE. However, we will have the "cap roomers MLE" which is only about $2.8 mil each year for 2 years. I'd use it on a scoring option off the bench like Scola or Boozer.

7) Round out rest of bench with some 2nd round picks, overseas prospects and veteran minimums for locker room leadership.

Starting Lineup:
PG: Jose Calderon
SG: Wesley Matthews
SF: Carmelo Anthony
PF: Jahlil Okafor
C: DeAndre Jordan

Bench:
PG: Pablo Prigioni
SG: Tim Hardaway Jr.
SF: Cleanthony Early
PF: Luis Scola
C: Cole Aldrich

Great post. We now have a better understanding of exactly how much money we'll have to play with I like DeAndre's game but I don't think he's a fit in the triangle. I do believe in the Greg Monroe rumor. His strengths are more of a fit. I also wouldn't be surprised if Phil decides to go after two wing players and move Melo to the four.

I agree, DeAndre isnt great fit for triangle, but if we get Monroe and Jahlil, that would be super redundant cause they are very similar players and neither can play the center position. Towns and Monroe would be enticing though cause Towns can play center I believe.

[Nyk4lyfe]

Knicks Potential Plan:

1) Renounce rights to Quincy Acy, Amare Stoudemire, Andrea Bargnani, Jason Smith (this is obvious for cap hold purposes)

2) Pick up Prigionis final year (he's only 1.7mil and we need cheap bench depth) and Cleanthony Early's team option

3) Don't renounce Cole Aldrich. His cap hold is only about 950k. I believe we can hold on to him, sign whatever stars we need and THEN negotiate with him because we have bird rights on him. He will probably ask for more than 950k but that's fine because by then we wont need cap space (can someone confirm whether this is possible?)

4) Draft Jahlil Okafor (I know this is unlikely but let's assume Knicks get #1 pick so we can have the most conservative estimate of cap space for free agency). The #1 pick last year received $5,510,640 but because cap will go up, lets assume it will be an even $5,800,000. Obviously there's a good chance we end up with a lower pick, I'd be cool with Towns too.

Payroll:

Carmelo Anthony: $22,875,000
Jose Calderon: $7,402,812
Jahill Okafor: $5,800,000
Pablo Prigioni: $1,734,572
Tim Hardaway Jr: $1,675,320
Cleanthony Early: $845,059
Cole Aldrich (cap hold): $950,000
6 Cap Holds: $525,093 x 6 = $3,150,558

Projected Total: $44,433,321
Projected Salary Cap: $68,000,000 (this is not set in stone but it appears there will be a good bump in cap this summer)
Projected Salary Space: $23,566,679

5) Sign Wesley Matthews ($10 mil a year) and DeAndre Jordan ($14 mil a year). I know the projected cap is $23,566,679 and the contracts I just said is $24mil but thats the AVERAGE salary over the span of a few years. Their first year's salary will be a good amount less than $24mil and there will be raises every year. In fact, when you factor in the BASE salary and the fact that each player we sign gets rid of one cap hold, we can actually pay these guys a bit more if need be.

I would have loved to say Butler and Gasol but I don't see any player who would get the max either way on contenders come over here for the same money (or even less money cause of that extra year they can get in their original team).

6) Even once we use all our cap space (or most of it), I believe we still get to use our MLE. However, we will have the "cap roomers MLE" which is only about $2.8 mil each year for 2 years. I'd use it on a scoring option off the bench like Scola or Boozer.

7) Round out rest of bench with some 2nd round picks, overseas prospects and veteran minimums for locker room leadership.

Starting Lineup:
PG: Jose Calderon
SG: Wesley Matthews
SF: Carmelo Anthony
PF: Jahlil Okafor
C: DeAndre Jordan

Bench:
PG: Pablo Prigioni
SG: Tim Hardaway Jr.
SF: Cleanthony Early
PF: Luis Scola
C: Cole Aldrich

Great post. We now have a better understanding of exactly how much money we'll have to play with I like DeAndre's game but I don't think he's a fit in the triangle. I do believe in the Greg Monroe rumor. His strengths are more of a fit. I also wouldn't be surprised if Phil decides to go after two wing players and move Melo to the four.

This is a good post. It does show all the numbers, even if I don't agree with the outcome (thinking smaller) or some of the individual ideas. But it's solid looks like. Shows you where we'll stand.

Thanks. I agree the outcome could be better cause DeAndre doesn't really fit in triangle. What about Monroe/Towns instead of Okafor/Jordan?

[Nyk4lyfe]

Knicks Potential Plan:

1) Renounce rights to Quincy Acy, Amare Stoudemire, Andrea Bargnani, Jason Smith (this is obvious for cap hold purposes)

2) Pick up Prigionis final year (he's only 1.7mil and we need cheap bench depth) and Cleanthony Early's team option

3) Don't renounce Cole Aldrich. His cap hold is only about 950k. I believe we can hold on to him, sign whatever stars we need and THEN negotiate with him because we have bird rights on him. He will probably ask for more than 950k but that's fine because by then we wont need cap space (can someone confirm whether this is possible?)

4) Draft Jahlil Okafor (I know this is unlikely but let's assume Knicks get #1 pick so we can have the most conservative estimate of cap space for free agency). The #1 pick last year received $5,510,640 but because cap will go up, lets assume it will be an even $5,800,000. Obviously there's a good chance we end up with a lower pick, I'd be cool with Towns too.

Payroll:

Carmelo Anthony: $22,875,000
Jose Calderon: $7,402,812
Jahill Okafor: $5,800,000
Pablo Prigioni: $1,734,572
Tim Hardaway Jr: $1,675,320
Cleanthony Early: $845,059
Cole Aldrich (cap hold): $950,000
6 Cap Holds: $525,093 x 6 = $3,150,558

Projected Total: $44,433,321
Projected Salary Cap: $68,000,000 (this is not set in stone but it appears there will be a good bump in cap this summer)
Projected Salary Space: $23,566,679

5) Sign Wesley Matthews ($10 mil a year) and DeAndre Jordan ($14 mil a year). I know the projected cap is $23,566,679 and the contracts I just said is $24mil but thats the AVERAGE salary over the span of a few years. Their first year's salary will be a good amount less than $24mil and there will be raises every year. In fact, when you factor in the BASE salary and the fact that each player we sign gets rid of one cap hold, we can actually pay these guys a bit more if need be.

I would have loved to say Butler and Gasol but I don't see any player who would get the max either way on contenders come over here for the same money (or even less money cause of that extra year they can get in their original team).

6) Even once we use all our cap space (or most of it), I believe we still get to use our MLE. However, we will have the "cap roomers MLE" which is only about $2.8 mil each year for 2 years. I'd use it on a scoring option off the bench like Scola or Boozer.

7) Round out rest of bench with some 2nd round picks, overseas prospects and veteran minimums for locker room leadership.

Starting Lineup:
PG: Jose Calderon
SG: Wesley Matthews
SF: Carmelo Anthony
PF: Jahlil Okafor
C: DeAndre Jordan

Bench:
PG: Pablo Prigioni
SG: Tim Hardaway Jr.
SF: Cleanthony Early
PF: Luis Scola
C: Cole Aldrich

good post to sum up;
d.jordan would help our D but he wont fit in triangle ideally. monroe is better for triangle but his defense sucks.. tough call.
also this squad lacks perimeter defense. neither starting guards or bench ones can defend. matthews can defend mediocre but he's not lock-up defender.

lets hope phil convince marc gasol. if we pack calderon somewhere and try to acquire butler+gasol, dragic+gasol our chances would be higher.

I'll be honest, I haven't watched too many Blazers game but I heard somewhere his defense was good. I guess I was wrong.

[K_ick_God]

The things people talk about on a message board are not accurate reflections of conditions in the real world.

wasn't there talks between knicks and okc last trade deadline about a late 1st rounder for shump, though?

There were rumors, yes. That was before Shump had another disappointing season, injury and entered the final year of his rookie deal.

If he was only worth the 29th pick in the NBA draft before all that, what evidence is there that his value held steady after all that?

On top of that, you have to consider what JR's value is. If it is a major negative, and under any other circumstance, we would need to include a 1st to get rid of him, then we essentially did that by including Shump.

So in a hypothetical world, would you rather trade Shump or the 29th pick to get rid of JR?

And got a 2nd. Which we never get credit for getting but always get a demerit for losing. As long as it's Phil and not a guy like Walsh who we all expected to be napping too much to make a good move.

[K_ick_God]

well his second order of business is to get rid of everyone he acquired during his first order of business. when you realize that, you realize he doesnt really seem to have a plan.

Except it's not really true. Calderon sucks so far but it's early and he's a good player. He didn't acquire Ray or JR or Tyson. He didn't give up a pick for Bargs. Dalembert was waivable -- no harm, no foul.

We'll see what happens to Calderon. One single guy, not "everyone."

[Knicks_Fan2]

There is no question, in hindsight for me but not for others, that trading Tyson when we did was really foolish.

[K_ick_God]

There is no question, in hindsight for me but not for others, that trading Tyson when we did was really foolish.

I think there's much question. You're not getting a 1-15 type pick for him. So at 15-30 and 2nd, and it not being clear that we could get an expiring for him, it's still a pretty open question. If he played like this on the Knicks, iffy at best, maybe Dallas ups their offer. The Cavs couldn't do it really, cap wise. And why would they? A guy like Moz will be better for longer and cheaper. Who are these teams lining up for him? And nobody is offering substantial value.

[vallen]

well his second order of business is to get rid of everyone he acquired during his first order of business. when you realize that, you realize he doesnt really seem to have a plan.

Except it's not really true. Calderon sucks so far but it's early and he's a good player. He didn't acquire Ray or JR or Tyson. He didn't give up a pick for Bargs. Dalembert was waivable -- no harm, no foul.

We'll see what happens to Calderon. One single guy, not "everyone."

when he made that trade, and resigned melo, he intended to compete in the east with those players. now that plan A failed he needs to go another direction. Plan B. and well since he failed miserably with Plan A, how are we expected to believe he will do any better with Plan B ? and if we went with Plan B from the start, we could have used Tyson and Shump to get something in return, and let the cancers expire, while maintaining our cap till 2016, the better year to use that money.

contrary to popular belief on the boards "addition by subtraction" hasnt worked for us. you cant keep trading assets away to get rid of "cultural resistant players", just for the sake of a "culture change". eventually you actually need talent/assets coming back. and now we will blow our Cap load on Dragic and Monroe, then shorty after be crying for 2020 to hurry up and arrive.