Stats reveal that Augustin is the better player

[Bravenewworld]

I dont get whats being argued here.
KD and Bondom, we've been having this discussion for like six months now. We've all known that he either wanted to run the team or be traded, im pretty sure we all got that because of his public statements or some article or whatever, i dont remember when it first came about.

He brought up Deandre jordan's situation in comparison to RJ, i am merely pointing out thats not the same situation as RJ "expected to be traded", he then is arguing that because RJ "expects to be traded" doesn't mean that the FO knows he wants to be traded, which common sense states, makes 0 sense.

We knew when the Waiters trade happened, RJ was almost happily shipped out to the Nets for Lopez.... I don't know how anyone but the FO, possibly team and RJ can determine when he "formally asked for a trade", but he and others have definitely made the issue public for at least the entire season, if not longer.

Thank you, that's simply what i am stating. That keeping RJ and letting him be disgruntled sure didn't help his perceived value amongst the league not to mention reports of lockeroom issues. What the response i am getting is that OKC didn't know he wanted out, and i simply don't believe OKC either didn't have dialogue with his agent regarding this, or just did due diligence and planned on him wanting out.

Since your entering this, there's 2 discussions going on.

1. ) with Bondom, the discussion is little more well thought out, and seems bondom tries to understand my posts
2.) all other discussions are basic responses to my discussion with Bondom from other posters, not many of them bring up anything of relevance or anything that i haven't addressed with Bondom in our discussion.

Yah, i actually edited my post and responded to a few things you said.

[bondom34]

BTW, there still isn't any credible rumor I've seen saying he demanded out prior to last week. That's the issue. And go for it on the trade board, I won't vote for fairness.

i mean if RJ stated "he expected to be traded' before the season started, i can only assume its because he wanted out, and "expecting" would indicated OKC was aware of it. Didn't you juse state he reportedly notified okc 2 days before the deadline?(or were you referring to the last deadline)

as far as the thread on TT board, is that really going to solve anything other than stir up more craziness?

you also stated this

And I don't think OKC fans would have argued that Detroit's first should go to Utah either.

regardless of where its going , which is another debate, your still indicating RJ is worth a 1st rounder by this statement.

I never heard RJ say he expected to be traded though either. Just media speculation.

[spearsy23]

????
He rejects there offer but they still thinks he'll be around? I don't think OKC could afford or was willing to give him more, so at that point, what is presti doing!?

...Greg Monroe. You really don't understand? Why is he still on your team? He actually rejected a long term deal and took the QO because he wanted out so badly.

I can't find a article stating that his agent notified OKC last moment. As normally , that agent should get fired, as its not the best way going about getting RJ what he wants.

Huh? This happens all the time. It happened with Enes Kanter.

Again i just want to reiterate, i understand from OKC perspective how they don't think they gave up too much(from your previsou post). I do think if it was RealGM, OKC would have demanded Detroits first, however i can see how OKC is perfectly happy with our 2 backup players, as it gets you closer to your immediate goal, and for you guys, what you gave up wasn't nearly as valuable to you as our depth.

Then you're overvaluing Jackson and undervaluing Kanter. Due to Jackson's piss poor team play and attitude this season his value wasn't much beyond a solid backup pg and another bench piece. DJ Augustin is a similar caliber player to Reggie currently, we all thought Reggie may be taking the next step after last year's playoffs, it never happened. He is 24 years old. That isn't young in NBA years and he hasn't ever been more than an average point guard outside of one game in the playoffs. You guys see 'a potential superstar' but that's not what NBA teams see or he has shown.

[joedumars1]

I'm not sure Moose wants out anymore. The only team he could go to that is in maybe a better situation is New Orleans to pair with A. Davis. We have 24yr old PG Jackson, 22yr old SG KC3, 21yr old C Dre. The biggest reason he wanted out was J. Smith I believe, Our organization was in a bad place with Joe D too, It seems SVG has turned us around

[joedumars1]

????
He rejects there offer but they still thinks he'll be around? I don't think OKC could afford or was willing to give him more, so at that point, what is presti doing!?

...Greg Monroe. You really don't understand? Why is he still on your team? He actually rejected a long term deal and took the QO because he wanted out so badly.

I can't find a article stating that his agent notified OKC last moment. As normally , that agent should get fired, as its not the best way going about getting RJ what he wants.

Huh? This happens all the time. It happened with Enes Kanter.

Again i just want to reiterate, i understand from OKC perspective how they don't think they gave up too much(from your previsou post). I do think if it was RealGM, OKC would have demanded Detroits first, however i can see how OKC is perfectly happy with our 2 backup players, as it gets you closer to your immediate goal, and for you guys, what you gave up wasn't nearly as valuable to you as our depth.

Then you're overvaluing Jackson and undervaluing Kanter. Due to Jackson's piss poor team play and attitude this season his value wasn't much beyond a solid backup pg and another bench piece. DJ Augustin is a similar caliber player to Reggie currently, we all thought Reggie may be taking the next step after last year's playoffs, it never happened. He is 24 years old. That isn't young in NBA years and he hasn't ever been more than an average point guard outside of one game in the playoffs. You guys see 'a potential superstar' but that's not what NBA teams see or he has shown.

That is just insane dude. KD and Westbrook must be old men for the NBA at 26.

I'm not sure he will hit superstar, but 20ppg, 7 assist, 5 boards, 2 steals, I can see that. I would say that would put him top 5 for the PG's

[Blkbrd671]

I never heard RJ say he expected to be traded though either. Just media speculation.

The request simply hammered home what everyone in the organization knew since October: Reggie Jackson didn't want to be there. Jackson said as much, stating publicly in training camp that he wanted to be a starter. He doubled down in November while filling in for the injured Russell Westbrook, saying, "I'm just trying to fill my role while I'm here."

In the locker room, the divide was growing. Injuries to Durant were keeping the team from finding a rhythm, and without the band-aid of winning to heal wounds, the Thunder's chemistry was suffering. The cliquish aspect was impossible not to notice. Jackson, Perry Jones and Jeremy Lamb all had lockers together on one side; Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka were on the other. Jackson, Lamb and Jones are close, shooting pregame together and often leaving the arena together. All three had also fallen out of favor with Brooks.

Two days before the Thunder's season opener in Portland, Jackson sprained his ankle and missed the team's first two games. In their third game, the Nov. 1 home opener against the Nuggets, Jackson was cleared to play, but according to a source, refused to because of disappointment that he wasn't traded before the Oct. 31 extension deadline for first-round picks entering their fourth season, like Harden before him. Jackson spoke at shootaround that morning, coyly saying he probably wouldn't play that night. Immediately after finishing his session, he grabbed a ball and threw down an impressive drop-step windmill dunk -- in front of reporters and his teammates. Jackson's situation parallels directly with Harden's: a talented young sixth man in search of a stepping out of Westbrook and Durant's shadow. But it played out far differently. Harden's said all the right things publicly while a different scenario played out behind closed doors. Then again, Harden was dealt before that Oct. 31 deadline, never presenting a chance for his situation to dissolve the way it did for Jackson.

http://espn.go.com/blog/okc-thunder/pos ... ime-coming

[Blkbrd671]

...Greg Monroe. You really don't understand? Why is he still on your team? He actually rejected a long term deal and took the QO because he wanted out so badly.

Find one report which Moose confirmed that Detroit offered him a deal, there both at a wait and see approach. He never requested a trade............

Huh? This happens all the time. It happened with Enes Kanter.

Don't be naive bud, Agents notify the team privately who try to get a deal done, if serious enough, agents go public to try to force a deal. Only time they go public immediately is when the team directly says no..You ruin your leverage. There's a reaosn the agent waite til towards the deadline.

Then you're overvaluing Jackson and undervaluing Kanter. Due to Jackson's piss poor team play and attitude this season his value wasn't much beyond a solid backup pg and another bench piece.

you just admitted that RJ had more value prior to the season, therefore RJ should/could have netted you more

Which is all i am trying to point out

DJ Augustin is a similar caliber player to Reggie currently, we all thought Reggie may be taking the next step after last year's playoffs, it never happened. He is 24 years old. That isn't young in NBA years and he hasn't ever been more than an average point guard outside of one game in the playoffs. You guys see 'a potential superstar' but that's not what NBA teams see or he has shown.

There is nothing in that statement that is worth a response, just pure blindness

[Blkbrd671]

That is just insane dude. KD and Westbrook must be old men for the NBA at 26.

I'm not sure he will hit superstar, but 20ppg, 7 assist, 5 boards, 2 steals, I can see that. I would say that would put him top 5 for the PG's

don't both with him, he's a walking contradiction.

[spearsy23]

Find one report which Moose confirmed that Detroit offered him a deal, there both at a wait and see approach. He never requested a trade............

So your stance is that There was never any offer from Detroit, they just decided they'd be best off letting a valuable young big man accept the qualifying offer, severely diminishing his trade value and making it so they had absolutely no control over his future? If you believe that you're really drinking the Kool-aid. Hell, even the organization wouldn't be that dishonest, and it's in their best interest.

Don't be naive bud, Agents notify the team privately who try to get a deal done, if serious enough, agents go public to try to force a deal. Only time they go public immediately is when the team directly says no..You ruin your leverage. There's a reaosn the agent waite til towards the deadline.

Or they wait until the deadline because the player isn't sure he wants out, is trying to make it work, doesn't want to alienate other players/fans, is tired of being in trade discussions, or a whole plethora of other reasons.

you just admitted that RJ had more value prior to the season, therefore RJ should/could have netted you more

Sure, at a time when there was no reason or ability to trade him he could have netted us a late first in addition to a good backup point and another bench piece. His value was never as high as you're making it out to be. Actually look at what he did last season and you'll see why.

Which is all i am trying to point out

That his value wasn't at its absolute highest? Well no s***, players are rarely traded then. Using that logic DJ should have been traded earlier in the year, Monroe should've been traded last year, Jennings should have been traded before the injury, Drummond should be traded right now.

There is nothing in that statement that is worth a response, just pure blindness

If you say so dude. Give him the keys to your offense and you'll be an 8-9 seed in a weak conference. He'll probably put up solid stats, maybe fringe top ten pg stats even, but that makes him a slightly above average point guard, not a superstar.

[spearsy23]

That is just insane dude. KD and Westbrook must be old men for the NBA at 26.

I'm not sure he will hit superstar, but 20ppg, 7 assist, 5 boards, 2 steals, I can see that. I would say that would put him top 5 for the PG's

They are in development terms. How much improvement to you expect to see from Westbrook or Durant from here on out?

20/7/5/2 on average to below average efficiency with below average defense? Frankly, if he is averaging 20 ppg he is shooting too much. Granted, your team has limited options in terms of creating offense, and has a great rebounder, so that's probably not a bad thing, like it would be on most teams. Still, that means you're paying him 14+ million to do the same thing DJ Augustin was doing for you as a starter. SVG's offense is very pg friendly, so I don't really doubt the numbers, I doubt the impact.

[bondom34]

I never heard RJ say he expected to be traded though either. Just media speculation.

The request simply hammered home what everyone in the organization knew since October: Reggie Jackson didn't want to be there. Jackson said as much, stating publicly in training camp that he wanted to be a starter. He doubled down in November while filling in for the injured Russell Westbrook, saying, "I'm just trying to fill my role while I'm here."

In the locker room, the divide was growing. Injuries to Durant were keeping the team from finding a rhythm, and without the band-aid of winning to heal wounds, the Thunder's chemistry was suffering. The cliquish aspect was impossible not to notice. Jackson, Perry Jones and Jeremy Lamb all had lockers together on one side; Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka were on the other. Jackson, Lamb and Jones are close, shooting pregame together and often leaving the arena together. All three had also fallen out of favor with Brooks.

Two days before the Thunder's season opener in Portland, Jackson sprained his ankle and missed the team's first two games. In their third game, the Nov. 1 home opener against the Nuggets, Jackson was cleared to play, but according to a source, refused to because of disappointment that he wasn't traded before the Oct. 31 extension deadline for first-round picks entering their fourth season, like Harden before him. Jackson spoke at shootaround that morning, coyly saying he probably wouldn't play that night. Immediately after finishing his session, he grabbed a ball and threw down an impressive drop-step windmill dunk -- in front of reporters and his teammates. Jackson's situation parallels directly with Harden's: a talented young sixth man in search of a stepping out of Westbrook and Durant's shadow. But it played out far differently. Harden's said all the right things publicly while a different scenario played out behind closed doors. Then again, Harden was dealt before that Oct. 31 deadline, never presenting a chance for his situation to dissolve the way it did for Jackson.

http://espn.go.com/blog/okc-thunder/pos ... ime-coming

This never said he expected to be traded or asked, just the media thought he would be.....,..

[joedumars1]

That is just insane dude. KD and Westbrook must be old men for the NBA at 26.

I'm not sure he will hit superstar, but 20ppg, 7 assist, 5 boards, 2 steals, I can see that. I would say that would put him top 5 for the PG's

They are in development terms. How much improvement to you expect to see from Westbrook or Durant from here on out?

20/7/5/2 on average to below average efficiency with below average defense? Frankly, if he is averaging 20 ppg he is shooting too much. Granted, your team has limited options in terms of creating offense, and has a great rebounder, so that's probably not a bad thing, like it would be on most teams. Still, that means you're paying him 14+ million to do the same thing DJ Augustin was doing for you as a starter. SVG's offense is very pg friendly, so I don't really doubt the numbers, I doubt the impact.

It will be a wait and see, you might be rite about the impact or shooting to much, but I don't see it being the case. I think RJ will imrove alot tho, he has everything you need to be a good defender(he did good against wall and Kyrie) DJ was not good at D, DJ is also not a long term solution, RJ can be, so far he looks like it, I expect his three and D to improve throughout his career.

I don't want to compare RJ to KD and Russ, they are superstars, both will probably go down as the one of the best at there positions ever, but saying 24 is old for RJ is crazy, with Russ being 26 with alot of injuries, Durant 26 with injuries this year. I'm not sure what is going to happen with KD and Russ developement, they'll probably both improve the weakneses in their game little by little, there's not many weaknesses tho

I'm curiouse to see how it is when KD returns. I believe he should sit back and try to integrate himself in slowly and let Russ keep playing out of his mind, but i'm not sure if that is what will happen.

[Blkbrd671]

This never said he expected to be traded or asked, just the media thought he would be.....,..

1.) Valid point
2.) Bondom your going to read that entire article about him being disgruntled and state that despite his actions, he never said he wanted out. I don't get that logic. Why would a player act that way, and then when the FO or coaching staff asks why, he says nothing.

[bondom34]

This never said he expected to be traded or asked, just the media thought he would be.....,..

1.) Valid point
2.) Bondom your going to read that entire article about him being disgruntled and state that despite his actions, he never said he wanted out. I don't get that logic. Why would a player act that way, and then when the FO or coaching staff asks why, he says nothing.

Because he didn't say a thing!

IT WAS MEDIA SPECULATION!

So you're telling me then that with all this Monroe didn't want out?

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2 ... ncy-rumors

Even before the Pistons made the bold move of hiring Stan Van Gundy to be their coach and run their basketball operations on Tuesday, there was a growing consensus around the league that whomever was tabbed to replace Joe Dumars in the front office would be willing to let restricted free agent Greg Monroe go.

Multiple league executives said that New Orleans, where Monroe is from, would be on his list, and it is easy to imagine a pairing of Monroe with young star big man Anthony Davis.

Either way, the arrival of Van Gundy means that Monroe’s tenure in Detroit is probably over.

Again, similar words. Monroe however played well on the court. Jackson never asked for a trade, he wanted to get paid. OKC didn't want to trade him, and until he started playing like hot garbage they weren't going to.

[Blkbrd671]

So your stance is that There was never any offer from Detroit, they just decided they'd be best off letting a valuable young big man accept the qualifying offer, severely diminishing his trade value and making it so they had absolutely no control over his future? If you believe that you're really drinking the Kool-aid. Hell, even the organization wouldn't be that dishonest, and it's in their best interest.

No i am stating the moose situation and RJ situation is no where near similar. Not hard to comprehend.

again provide a article of the offer that moose acknowledged was offered, til then, its not worth discussing.

Or they wait until the deadline because the player isn't sure he wants out, is trying to make it work, doesn't want to alienate other players/fans, is tired of being in trade discussions, or a whole plethora of other reasons.

its really sad that a Detroit fan knows more about what happened in the lockeroom. What your proposing also makes 0 sense and have read 0 reports of that.

Sure, at a time when there was no reason or ability to trade him he could have netted us a late first in addition to a good backup point and another bench piece. His value was never as high as you're making it out to be. Actually look at what he did last season and you'll see why.

That's all i am saying, Detroit should have given a first for RJ, but didn't, hence SVG got his.aka OKC should have gotten more. Did you forget you were arguing against that!!!!????? hahahaha

That his value wasn't at its absolute highest? Well no s***, players are rarely traded then. Using that logic DJ should have been traded earlier in the year

No, just no, please stop, you have no clue what your talking about, DJ was literally traded at his highest value.

Monroe should've been traded last year, Jennings should have been traded before the injury, Drummond should be traded right now.

Find a report where either of those was unhappy with their current team and STATED "they wanted to be traded"....i'll wait

Again not discussing something based on pure speculation

If you say so dude. Give him the keys to your offense and you'll be an 8-9 seed in a weak conference. He'll probably put up solid stats, maybe fringe top ten pg stats even, but that makes him a slightly above average point guard, not a superstar.

OMG is only going to be really really good, and not great!? damit,..............oh well, i am really going to miss our backup players and 2nd round picks

I am done responding to you, your consistently contradict yourself, you fly all over the place on your discussions that are irrelevant to the actual discussion and your making all these claims without any valid basis or report. Good luck on your season, enjoy singler in the open court

[Blkbrd671]

Again, similar words. Monroe however played well on the court. Jackson never asked for a trade, he wanted to get paid. OKC didn't want to trade him, and until he started playing like hot garbage they weren't going to.

Media speculation vs Players actual actions

Why do you think RJ did a windmill dunk in front of everybody, when he said he couldn't play?????????? because he was disgruntled.............................because??????????????????

Before you answer that

Do you think that RJ expected OKC to trade RUss and move forward with him as a PG?
Do you think that rJ expected OKC to Start himself over Russ?
Did you read that RJ state "All he's ever wanted was to have his own team"(not word for word)?

I am asking all of that because the only way what your stating is true is for RJ and his agent to not realize that everything he wants can't come true on OKC.................so what he's just going to sit there and be happy!?

I don't understand your logic, you indicating a player never stated he wants out, but all his actions contradict that. Yet you want to believe he just acted out and never actually told the FO why!?

Do you get why that's frustrating to read?

[bondom34]

Again, similar words. Monroe however played well on the court. Jackson never asked for a trade, he wanted to get paid. OKC didn't want to trade him, and until he started playing like hot garbage they weren't going to.

Media speculation vs Players actual actions

Why do you think RJ did a windmill dunk in front of everybody, when he said he couldn't play?????????? because he was disgruntled.............................because??????????????????

Before you answer that

Do you think that RJ expected OKC to trade RUss and move forward with him as a PG?
Do you think that rJ expected OKC to Start himself over Russ?
Did you read that RJ state "All he's ever wanted was to have his own team"(not word for word)?

I am asking all of that because the only way what your stating is true is for RJ and his agent to not realize that everything he wants can't come true on OKC.................so what he's just going to sit there and be happy!?

I don't understand your logic, you indicating a player never stated he wants out, but all his actions contradict that. Yet you want to believe he just acted out and never actually told the FO why!?

Do you get why that's frustrating to read?

So you're telling me a situation has never changed? Monroe over the last summer showed zero indication of wanting to be in Detroit long term. ZERO. The difference is that he showed up and did his job. This thread has gotten insane and quite frankly annoying to a point beyond repair. I'm locking it up, and it can be debated on the trade board, see here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1375334