NBAPA Lawyer: Double standard exists regarding age limit for black basketball players and white athletes in other sports

[ALL HAIL]

And this is why whites can't have conversations with blacks about racism (I'm neither). If you can't talk about it straight up without ****, we won't get anywhere.

If I've learned anything fom my ten year marriage it's that communication requires patience. I feel what Ken was expressing. You call it BS. I think it's rather insightful.

Trust me, if you were to ask him what he thinks is BS in this thread, he'd tell you there's quite a bit of it. But it hasn't stopped him fom communicating and teaching this that don't understand.

That's a big part of the humility that I mentioned earlier. It takes patience to learn something new, for a new perspective ... No BS.

Here's the thing, almost everything requires a certain amount of tact. Ken's passion about the issue is coming off in a very aggressive tone that is difficult to cut through.

I guess if you're fighting this battle often it can lead to this but one needs to be aware of it.

You're right. He is being aggressive, but if you look beyond that, he is sharing intelligent ideas.

And to be fair, there have been several posters here who have, just as aggressively as Ken, shared their thoughts on how they're tired of people playing the race card. Matter of fact, much of his aggression was in reaction to these type of posts, which I completely understand.

I hope you can as well.

[King Ken]

Forget the NBA how about the NFL, where an athlete have to spend 4 years in some NCAA penitentiary before they can earn money for their services. The difference is that the NFL does not have any competition, apart from semi-pro leagues like Arena and the CFL, these football athletes have no other sporting options that can make them earn a good living.

Comparing the NBA to the NFL is stupid. I wish s linebacker would declare for the NFL draft right out of highschool. He'd get his ribs thrown to another continent. Poor analogy.

But why do you care? Shouldn't they be able to make that choice for themselves? Let the kids get their money if they want it, right? Isn't it virtually the same argument?

He's right, Football is just too far of a physically demanding sport. While of course, some pros can do it, most can't. You really have to be physically mature. You can get seriously hurt at that sport. I do agree about an age limit, what I don't agree with is those athletes not being paid especially the D1 athletes. I played Basketball at a lower level, I knew we shouldn't be paid but if I was a D1 athlete with their schedule and demands, you damn right, I need to be compensated. A scholarship isn't enough considering the frugality of the job market. I tell kids, you choose a college based on the overall experience. What is there network? Do they teach you have to be self-sufficient, what are the available funds to you, how's their job placement like especially relating to your race or gender, etc. I ask a lot of questions because you are paying for the OVERALL experience. Far to often, profitable college athletes choose a school based on if it can get them to the pro game and while I don't disagree with it, you just better make it or your in major trouble. A lot of big smarter schools are looking out for their athletes I've noticed. Some of my cousins got plush jobs out of college after playing high level D1 sports. Then again, I know a lot that graduated and my salary is the combination of the three of their salaries. So I see discrepancies. Of course, they love the school if they made it or they got a nice job but most I know didn't especially the women and they don't care much for the institution no more.

[Liver_Pooty]

Forget the NBA how about the NFL, where an athlete have to spend 4 years in some NCAA penitentiary before they can earn money for their services. The difference is that the NFL does not have any competition, apart from semi-pro leagues like Arena and the CFL, these football athletes have no other sporting options that can make them earn a good living.

Comparing the NBA to the NFL is stupid. I wish s linebacker would declare for the NFL draft right out of highschool. He'd get his ribs thrown to another continent. Poor analogy.

But why do you care? Shouldn't they be able to make that choice for themselves? Let the kids get their money if they want it, right? Isn't it virtually the same argument?

What? Are you serious? A football player right out of highschool can get seriously injured in the NFL. In the NBA they just 'wouldn't be ready '. A 18 year old under developed teenager getting hit head on by JJ Watt? Get real. Totally different.

[thelead]

Comparing the NBA to the NFL is stupid. I wish s linebacker would declare for the NFL draft right out of highschool. He'd get his ribs thrown to another continent. Poor analogy.

But why do you care? Shouldn't they be able to make that choice for themselves? Let the kids get their money if they want it, right? Isn't it virtually the same argument?

He's right, Football is just too far of a physically demanding sport. While of course, some pros can do it, most can't. You really have to be physically mature. You can get seriously hurt at that sport. I do agree about an age limit, what I don't agree with is those athletes not being paid especially the D1 athletes. I played Basketball at a lower level, I knew we shouldn't be paid but if I was a D1 athlete with their schedule and demands, you damn right, I need to be compensated. A scholarship isn't enough considering the frugality of the job market.

Now THAT is a completely different topic altogether. I'm with you there as well.

[ALL HAIL]

I'll try. Hopefully your brain is not too linear to understand.

Holy lol.

When a person who has no desire to be in a place is "forced" to be there, metaphorically speaking, it is reasonable to call that place a prison.

Understand?

They can always choose to not go to college, too.

I just find it a bit rich that underprivileged people who feel like they're being treated like commodities, or only valued for their physical/athletic traits, being provided with the opportunity of a college education, and to develop some interesits/qualifications outside of their sporting ability, treat it like it's some sort of punishment.

Nobody is going to value you for your intelligence and or as a person beyond being "just an athlete" if you see developing your mind and expanding your abilities/skills/knowledge as some sort of imposed burden.

I really didn't mean any disrespect. I might've simply resented having to spell out something that, to me, seems crystal clear. My bad.

The fact of the matter is that, generally speaking, these kids that are within arms reach of the league don't want education, they want money, and if they're being forced to go to college, it could be seen as a prison. I don't know any other way to explain this to you.

You may one day be in a marriage with a wonderful woman and have beautiful kids with this woman, but overtime you may become unhappy for no fault of your wonderful wife. Regardless of the reason why you are unhappy and want more out of your marriage, and regardless of how perfect your family may be, the mere fact that you'd rather be somewhere else makes it a metaphorical prison.

Do they only have college as an option? No, they don't. But asking an 18 year old to leave their country is more daunting than playing an 82 game NBA schedule, and asking him to be the first high profile guy to play in the D-League is also requiring him to conjure up a great deal of bravery as well--the risks are tremendous.

[jc23]

I think the players union is getting their stance out there early, they want to put out their extreme view of what they want in 2017 so as to get people talking about it. making them look less like the bad guy when the lockout happens.

Outside of the 18 year old kids both the players union and owners benefit from having (and increasing) the age limit. Also the fans benefit, since it would create a better NBA product. the college game would also benefit but i hate college ball so i could care less.

The owners get a more polished player with less chance of drafting a bust. The players would allow their veterans to hang around in the league a bit longer, since college would expose the players that would normally be drafted and as such take a veterans spot on a roster.

Personally i dont see this as a race issue, to me this is a money issue and money trumps all, so if the owners felt drafting 18 year old's would make them (i.e. the league) more money then they would do it.

[dunkman04]

In the NHL and MLB top rookies make far less than they do in the NBA. If NBA teams could take a look at a guy for a few years at 925k a season, or ship them to a minor league team for a couple years for very little, I'm sure they'd be all for doing away with the age restriction. We aren't comparing apples to apples here at all.

Oh and I'm sorry, college only feels like prison to someone who hasn't been to prison. Give me a break. It may be undesirable or even miserable, but it sure as hell isn't prison. You can tell because the dorm room doors lock from the inside. That makes all the difference.

[ALL HAIL]

In the NHL and MLB top rookies make far less than they do in the NBA. If NBA teams could take a look at a guy for a few years at 925k a season, or ship them to a minor league team for a couple years for very little, I'm sure they'd be all for doing away with the age restriction. We aren't comparing apples to apples here at all.

Oh and I'm sorry, college only feels like prison to someone who hasn't been to prison. Give me a break. It may be undesirable or even miserable, but it sure as hell isn't prison. You can tell because the dorm room doors lock from the inside. That makes all the difference.

Clearly you don't understand metaphor. Damn!

I agree with significantly lowering that rookie scale though.

[DanTown8587]

This post will probably get buried and not addressed because it's not about race baiting or kids being taken advantage so that's a damn shame because every thread in here has missed the reason the union will present their argument this way. Just one side thing first though:

- Just because colleges offer scholarships doesn't make that fair value for players
Right now a popular argument of many people is "well what's the cost of a college scholarship" or "isn't free college a good thing"? And while it's true many basketball players get scholarships, that market has been constricted (much like the NBA) so that players aren't allowed to earn their wages with free negotiation. The sad part for the NCAA is that they don't even collectively bargain with the athletes; student-athletes have a "take it or leave it" deal they have to make.


Now, the real steak and potatoes of the "racism" of the age limit:
- The Union's argument is an attempt to lower the age limit without having to bargain for it
The league and the NBAPA collectively bargain all parts of the league because without collective bargaining, literally everything done by the league would be illegal (drafts, player salaries, contract restrictions on length, etc). The age limit was something that the player's union negotiated (in 2005 the players negotiated their cut to 57% of BRI when they accepted the age limit). Now, the union wants to roll the age limit back and will attempt to argue that the age limit's racism makes the rule illegal. The Supreme Court's stance (per the case Alexander v Gardner/Denver County) is that unlawful employment cannot be bargained away by either side. Basically, if the player's union can argue that the age limit IS racist that the age limit would have to be removed from the rules and the players wouldn't have to bargain for that.

- The age limit is not racist in the eyes of the law
Just because blacks are more impacted by the age limit than whites does not make the rule racist. A law violating a protected class (like race) has to allow a benefit to one race at the cost of another. Seeing as being white does not have any impact on skipping the age limit, the league will have a very easy time arguing how the age limit isn't racist. As I will explain below, the player's union will have an even harder time lowering the age limit via age discrimination.

-The US Government does not get involved in age discrimination below the age of 40
The EEOC (The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) is very clear on age discrimination http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm

Age discrimination involves treating someone (an applicant or employee) less favorably because of his age.

The Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) only forbids age discrimination against people who are age 40 or older. It does not protect workers under the age of 40, although some states do have laws that protect younger workers from age discrimination.

So while some may think that the case law (i.e Haywood v NBA) and rules are on the side of the players via age limits, they would be wrong since the age limit was collective bargained and thus not held to the standards of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act that the Haywood case appealed to.

In summation, the Union's racism argument (though weak) is their best bet at getting the age limit lowered without collective bargaining and that is why they're saying it. My assumption is that the age limit likely remains at 19 for the foreseeable future simply because I think the players are more concerned with growing BRI than lowering the age limit.

[jpengland]

And if there is a guy (black or not) having to wait a year to get paid in the NBA, that means another guy IS being paid.

How on earth is this possibly racist? Doesn't Doesn't matter how old you have to be to enter, the NBA is still paying out exactly the same amount of money, to the same demographic of players.

Biggest nonsense of an argument I have heard in a long time but shows quite how dirty the players association want to play. Throw enough **** and dumb people will go along

[mtron929]

Pretty much, all the rational people should agree that there is no evidence connecting age limit of basketball players (which impact people from all race) with racism. None. Of course, this does not mean that racism does not exist in other facets of the society. However, what happens in these types of arguments is that the discussion expands in all directions and we cannot come to resolution on one topic.

[-TheDocOfDenial]

Blaming the age limit on race in my opinion is an inflammatory way to go at it and its just plait wrong. Owners want the age limit (including MJ who is black) so that they can have a better look at their investments before drafting them. It has less to do with the color of a person's skin and more to do with talent evaluation. In this age due to the exposure of HS athletes and AAU ball, if there was no age limit, you would see a lot more players declaring for the draft straight out of HS which would lead to a more diluted talent pool in the NBA and a lot more busts. Now you might say "oh well thats up to the teams to scout better" but look at guys like MJ/Bird/Magic/Zeke who all gave credit to college for their development as basketball players and becoming who they are. But hey, just play the race card and create chaos.

[bondom34]

Why wasn't football mentioned?

Oh, I know why, cause there are black, white, Hispanic players, and an age limit. Gotta fit that racist narrative though

This.

I'm all for equality, and normally post in any threads in a way that indicates it. This is insane, and is more of a reach than I've seen in a while.

Edit:

And I'm sorry, but I don't buy that an education isn't important to these guys or that its useless or that they don't want one. Why? Because plenty of them go on after they play to something else. Even the one and dones go back to school in many cases to finish a degree and end up doing something post-NBA. KD and Westbrook both got their degrees, as did Jeff Green. Its a little insulting to the athletes and the colleges to assume they all go to school and don't show up or actually want or get an education.

[ChosunX]

I'll try. Hopefully your brain is not too linear to understand.

Holy lol.

When a person who has no desire to be in a place is "forced" to be there, metaphorically speaking, it is reasonable to call that place a prison.

Understand?

They can always choose to not go to college, too.

I just find it a bit rich that underprivileged people who feel like they're being treated like commodities, or only valued for their physical/athletic traits, being provided with the opportunity of a college education, and to develop some interests/qualifications outside of their sporting ability, treat it like it's some sort of punishment.

Nobody is going to value you for your intelligence and or as a person beyond being "just an athlete" if you see developing your mind and expanding your abilities/skills/knowledge as some sort of imposed burden.

For some people it is, not everyone wants to be an intellectual and those who want to be, they have plenty of time to read.

[Black Jack]

^ OK I'm going to form a nation-wide wage theft cartel in your industry, force you to work for free for me for four years, and if you don't like it, go move to Europe. Deal?

I feel you my man, but, at the same time, a system needs to be created where these young guys are able to sit and watch more before they hit the floor for prolonged minutes ... it makes for a better league, increasing the overall quality of play. It doesn't make these guys better "people", but it does make them better ball-players.

Personally I think its the winner take all nature of the system that is the problem. What if there was a club system in America and local metro area leagues? Instead of building huge mega stadiums and jacking up ticket prices, kids could join clubs and play with their own age until they were grown, and play in regional leagues for a good salary?

[bgwc]

United States Population
White Americans - 72.4%
African Americans - 12.6%

NBA Population
African Americans - 76.3%

Average NBA Salary
White - $3.7M
Black - $4.7M

NBA is racist against whites?

[miltk]

throwing racism into an argument is unnecessary and absolutely stupid as he is comparing different occupations. what a dolt. lowering the age limit to high school will kill and already sad league. ''here's what'll though iff'n they do....all those undeveloped young bones that haven't set will break in an 82game schedule vs gigantor men. so go ahead,,,ruin those young bodies forever

[jmomcc]

There is a racial component to this issue. Especially the paternalistic 'they should get an education' opinion', when its not really about that. Guys with the talent level to not go right away will still go to college anyway.

What the NBA want is a year of free scouting and more importantly free marketing. That's what march madness is. Its so we know the names before they play in the league.

The NBPA allowed the age limit because it is not a pressing issue to most of their members (some of whom see high school kids as competition).

This statement is very clever because it draws a line in the sand at any age limit, so it puts the NBPA in the best bargaining position on this issue. It also introduces the factor of race. This can galvanize the membership and also make it a contentious issue for the owners to make a strong stand on. Thus for the NBPA to allow one year or to move to two years, they would get more in return.

The high school players are just pawns in this equation.

I personally think there should be no age limit because I hate the NCAA. But if they started to get paid in college, I might change my mind. I also think a player will develop more in the league or in a dleague. In fact for big men, they would be better playing in the Dleague from 16 from a technical POV. They would get real coaching and no restrictions on practice.

If I was advising an 18 year old with NBA talent, I'd tell them to go abroad. Its a better experience as you learn how to fit in to a pro team and a new culture. You learn about handling money, bills and so on. I find it telling that the slant in the media is that this is a bad thing. I read a ton of articles about Mudliay recently and they are split on the good idea/bad idea thing when it is basically always a better idea to take millions of dollars over one year of college. The media has an agenda and that agenda is fueled by the march madness money machine.

[wigglestrue]

If as many people gambled on and attended college baseball and hockey, there'd probably be the same economic interests and conflicts, right? But the players would be predominantly white. So...

[brownsmith89]

Maybe the rookie scale should be adjusted according to your age.

If a guy comes out of high school, a team should be able to sign him for eight years as opposed to five.

If a guy comes out after one year, a team should be able to sign him to a seven year deal.

This way, a team would be given the time to develop a player absent the pressure of playing these young guys too soon.

Maybe they should lower the rookie scale as well.

excellent idea.

a basketball player like jeremy lin wouldn't have to be dragged down by studying literature, statistics, whatever at harvard. there's extra time and money to spend with high level trainers and coaches provided by an nba organization.

where's the proof that college facilities and trainers are superior to an nba's development team?

the one career path that i think would be helpful to a lot of people is what david robinson did. he joined the military and then later went to the nba as a rookie at age 24. the military provides true training for discipline and teamwork.

college isn't for everybody. you can join a fraternity and get drunk there or start cheating on exams.