LeBron James vs. Dwight Howard (peak only)

Jim Naismith · Post #1 » by **Jim Naismith** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 3:44 pm

LeBron James or Dwight Howard?

Which player would you take for a single peak season?

Assume your team will play the other player's team in a 7-game playoff series.

te887848 · Post #2 » by **te887848** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 4:02 pm

Very insulting to LeBron. Peak Howard can't even sniff current LeBron's jock, never mind peak LeBron. It is like comparing Alonzo Mourning to Michael Jordan.

Jim Naismith · Post #3 » by **Jim Naismith** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 4:05 pm

I posed this "sacrilegious" question with one allegedly correct answer. But remember. . .

Peak Howard is a 3-time DPoY winner.

Peak Howard averaged 27 ppg / 15 rpg / .677 TS% in the playoffs.

In 2009, Howard's Magic eliminated LeBron's heavily favored Cavaliers, despite the Cavs having home-court advantage.

te887848 · Post #4 » by **te887848** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 4:11 pm

The same peak Howard who got his ass kicked by Pau Gasol? No thanks, LeBron is 1000x better.

When Howard can prove to be 70% as good as 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013 and 2014 LeBron, then this might be a more appropriate comparison. Until then, LeBron by a landslide.

2007 LeBron > peak Howard

Jetzger · Post #5 » by **Jetzger** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 4:17 pm

As underrated as Dwight has gotten in the basketball world, there's really no question I'm taking Lebron here by a giant margin.

SlowPaced · Post #6 » by **SlowPaced** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 4:37 pm

Seriously? I'm a keen defender of Dwight, thinking he's been criminally underrated both in the evalution of his prime and his current status, but really LeBron is the one to pick, not even close.

Be the Best · Post #7 » by **Be the Best** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 4:55 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:I posed this "sacrilegious" question with one allegedly correct answer. But remember. . .

Peak Howard is a 3-time DPoY winner.

Peak Howard averaged 27 ppg / 15 rpg / .677 TS% in the playoffs.

In 2009, Howard's Magic eliminated LeBron's heavily favored Cavaliers, despite the Cavs having home-court advantage.

But Lebron averaged 39 8 8 on 59 ts% in that series. Seems foolish to use that series to prop up Dwight when Lebron was cleary better in that series and on the season.

Be the Best · Post #8 » by **Be the Best** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 4:59 pm

So there is currently a thread comparing peak Dwight to Noah and now one comparing Dwight to Lebron. One underrates the hell out of Dwight, and this one overrates him. Lebron was simply on a diff level, galaxies ahead as an offensive player while being an elite defender in his own right.

Jim Naismith · Post #9 » by **Jim Naismith** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 5:17 pm

te887848 wrote:When Howard can prove to be 70% as good as 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013 and 2014 LeBron, then this might be a more appropriate comparison. Until then, LeBron by a landslide.

What happened to 2011? So you admit 2011 Dwight > 2011 LeBron .

2011 LeBron is still prime LeBron, so this comparison is not as far-fetched as you make it out to be.

Let's look at RAPM for these two players:

LeBron is clearly better but to say there is a huge gap is an exaggeration.

Post #10 » by **Quotatious** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 5:21 pm

LeBron, and it's not even close. It's like comparing peak Jordan to Ewing. The center is great, and more impactful defensively than the wing, but the gap on offense is far bigger and more significant, in the wing players' favor.

Dwight was IMO slightly better than LeBron in 2011, but James has 5 or 6 seasons better than Howard's peak (2009-10, 2012-14, arguably also 2008).

Jim Naismith · Post #11 » by **Jim Naismith** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 5:43 pm

Quotatious wrote:LeBron, and it's not even close. It's like comparing peak Jordan to Ewing. The center is great, and more impactful defensively than the wing, but the gap on offense is far bigger and more significant, in the wing players' favor.

Dwight was IMO slightly better than LeBron in 2011, but James has 5 or 6 seasons better than Howard's peak (2009-10, 2012-14, arguably also 2008).

Every full season that prime Jordan played, he was clearly better than Ewing.

The same cannot be said of LeBron and Dwight because of 2011.

In the language of game theory:

1) Jordan strictly dominates Ewing
2) LeBron does NOT strictly dominate Dwight.

Post #12 » by **Quotatious** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 5:46 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:Every full season that prime Jordan played, he was clearly better than Ewing.

The same cannot be said of LeBron and Dwight because of 2011.

In the language of game theory:

1) Jordan strictly dominates Ewing
2) LeBron does NOT strictly dominate Dwight.

Well, if you wanted to make a case for Howard based on one of LeBron's worst prime seasons, I guess you probably could've named this thread "LeBron vs Dwight in 2011", because 2011 was obviously very far from LeBron's peak. 2009, 2010, 2012 or 2013 LeBron is much better than any version of Dwight.

Jim Naismith · Post #13 » by **Jim Naismith** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 5:57 pm

Quotatious wrote:Well, if you wanted to make a case for Howard based on one of LeBron's worst prime seasons, I guess you probably could've named this thread "LeBron vs Dwight in 2011", because 2011 was obviously very far from LeBron's peak. 2009, 2010, 2012 or 2013 LeBron is much better than any version of Dwight.

Even in 2009, one of LeBron's peak years, I'd also argue that the LeBron-Dwight gap wasn't huge.

In 2009 despite LeBron's great stats and home-court advantage, the heavily favored Cavs lost against Dwight's Magic.

Dwight had games of 30/13, 27/14, and 40/14 in that series.

Post #14 » by **Goudelock** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 5:58 pm

It's kind of hard to compare two players who play completely different positions with completely different roles. It would depend on what team I have around him. If I'm building a team, and I have a good/great wing player, I'd go with Howard. If I already have a good/great post player, I'm going with Lebron. I'd probably use this logic with any other player.

Post #15 » by **Quotatious** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 6:03 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:Even in 2009, one of LeBron's peak years, I'd also argue that the LeBron-Dwight gap wasn't huge.

In 2009 despite LeBron's great stats and home-court advantage, the heavily favored Cavs lost against Dwight's Magic.

Dwight had games of 30/13, 27/14, and 40/14 in that series.

No, 2009 isn't even close, in my opinion. LeBron's '09 season is arguably the greatest peak in NBA history, his numbers were just mind-boggling in the playoffs, especially in that series against Orlando. Howard was fantastic, too, but LeBron was far better, even despite the fact that Cleveland lost the series. James is better in every advanced stat, across the board - both boxscore and RAPM.

Jim Naismith · Post #16 » by **Jim Naismith** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 6:11 pm

Quotatious wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:Even in 2009, one of LeBron's peak years, I'd also argue that the LeBron-Dwight gap wasn't huge.

In 2009 despite LeBron's great stats and home-court advantage, the heavily favored Cavs lost against Dwight's Magic.

Dwight had games of 30/13, 27/14, and 40/14 in that series.

No, 2009 isn't even close, in my opinion. LeBron's '09 season is arguably the greatest peak in NBA history, his numbers were just mind-boggling in the playoffs, especially in that series against Orlando. Howard was fantastic, too, but LeBron was far better, even despite the fact that Cleveland lost the series. James is better in every advanced stat, across the board - both boxscore and RAPM.

I'm just making the claim that LeBron's edge over Dwight is clear — but not huge. The Magic's elimination of the overdog Cavs reinforces this.

In a way, it's like Wilt against Bill Russell's Celtics.

Post #17 » by **PaulieWal** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 6:15 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
Quotatious wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:Even in 2009, one of LeBron's peak years, I'd also argue that the LeBron-Dwight gap wasn't huge.

In 2009 despite LeBron's great stats and home-court advantage, the heavily favored Cavs lost against Dwight's Magic.

Dwight had games of 30/13, 27/14, and 40/14 in that series.

No, 2009 isn't even close, in my opinion. LeBron's '09 season is arguably the greatest peak in NBA history, his numbers were just mind-boggling in the playoffs, especially in that series against Orlando. Howard was fantastic, too, but LeBron was far better, even despite the fact that Cleveland lost the series. James is better in every advanced stat, across the board - both boxscore and RAPM.

I'm just making the claim that LeBron's edge over Dwight is clear — but not huge. The Magic's elimination of the overdog Cavs reinforces this.

In a way, it's like Wilt against Bill Russell's Celtics.

How does it reinforce your claim? They play 2 different positions and weren't guarded by each other. The Cavs didn't lose because LeBron underperformed, they lost because Howard played well and his 3 point shooters were even better (40% vs. 32%).

spearsy23 · Post #18 » by **spearsy23** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 6:19 pm

Jim Naismith wrote:
Quotatious wrote:
Jim Naismith wrote:Even in 2009, one of LeBron's peak years, I'd also argue that the LeBron-Dwight gap wasn't huge.

In 2009 despite LeBron's great stats and home-court advantage, the heavily favored Cavs lost against Dwight's Magic.

Dwight had games of 30/13, 27/14, and 40/14 in that series.

No, 2009 isn't even close, in my opinion. LeBron's '09 season is arguably the greatest peak in NBA history, his numbers were just mind-boggling in the playoffs, especially in that series against Orlando. Howard was fantastic, too, but LeBron was far better, even despite the fact that Cleveland lost the series. James is better in every advanced stat, across the board - both boxscore and RAPM.

I'm just making the claim that LeBron's edge over Dwight is clear — but not huge. The Magic's elimination of the overdog Cavs reinforces this.

In a way, it's like Wilt against Bill Russell's Celtics.

Everyone understands what you're saying, that's not in question. It's just that nobody thinks you're even close to being on to something. I'm assuming you voted for the Lebron but close option, so the poll should be fairly telling. Not only that, you said "peak only" but you're trying to compare peak Dwight to not peak Lebron AND you're trying to use team success to make an argument.

cpower · Post #19 » by **cpower** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 6:23 pm

Dwight vs Kobe is a better comparison.

Jim Naismith · Post #20 » by **Jim Naismith** » Mon Mar 9, 2015 6:25 pm

PaulieWal wrote:How does it reinforce your claim? They play 2 different positions and weren't guarded by each other. The Cavs didn't lose because LeBron underperformed, they lost because Howard played well and his 3 point shooters were even better (40% vs. 32%).

Really? After two games, the series was tied 1-1.

In the last 4 games of that series, LeBron shot 42.6% (25% from three) from the field

Contrast this with LeBron's 2009 regular season, where he shot 48.9% (34.4% from three). That's a major drop-off

Which player would you take for a single season?