All-Season Player of the Year Discussion thread

[PaulieWal]

Id have to agree with this. I think Steph, Cp3 and Davis are def the top3 separated from the rest first 2 might even be a bit above Davis. Lebrons jumper is just completely gone, playmaking isnt as good. Hes has similar struggles as 11 and 12 Miami offensively (and his defense isnt on the level it was then) this is a big drop from the complete skillset he showed last season and 13

The bigger difference is that unlike 2012 he's not as willing to go into the post and seems more content playing on the perimeter even when his shot isn't falling. IIRC he was a horrible 17% or 20% outside the paint after game 6 against Boston lol but still dominated all those games.

His personal efficiency is down but they are still ripping off a 111 OTRG with him on the floor against the above average defenses 11th and 12th best defensive teams in the league. 11 and 12 Heat (until the 12 Finals when they unleashed Battier) never got to that level. And Bron is doing everything on O getting them to that 111 OTRG (and it's too much to be honest with the overhandling which is part of the personal efficiency drop).

Look at this.
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/

Bron by existing and driving to the basket/ posting up just sucks in the defense even if he isn't making the layups. And this doesn't include secondary assists which he has 9 of this playoffs, which given that Cleveland is good at swinging the ball would extend his big lead over everyone else in team offense.

You guys are way too caught up in personal efficiency instead of looking at the impact on the teams offense. Yes he can't shoot right now but still doesn't make him way less effective. Less effective sure but not the HUGE DECLINE you guys are talking about.

And his defense has been almost as good as 2011/2012 so far this playoffs. He's not been nearly good as he was in 13/14 when his jumper was on but he's still been a better offensive player than 11/12 Bron and a little bit worse defensive player.

The myth that he's been garbage this year on O needs to stop. He's different but only a little bit less effective than 13/14 Bron.

You have a habit of doing this sometimes where you will post in regards to LeBron and then lump every negative thing others are saying and post that in a reply to comments which don't really say all of those things.

For starters GSP and I think he's playing his way out of top 3 SO FAR, top 3 in the league so far which is hardly saying that he's been garbage on O this year. Secondly, I have mentioned it repeatedly that he had a great second half of the RS here. His 5 playoff games has been underwhelming by his standards. You can use team Ortg all you want but he clearly hasn't looked very impressive and it was against Boston. Let's not get carried away here. It's not just his personal efficiency but in the Boston series he did look like to be in a lot of chill mode before turning it on in the 4th.

He did have a bad game 1 against the Bulls and you can try to spin that anyway you want but it was a garbage game. Game 2 he was great again and I haven't seen anyone here bring up his efficiency for that game when you could see how great he was playing. That was clearly more like the post-vacation LeBron.

Again, no one has said half of things you are talking about in your post ITT.

I am sorry if I come off as rude in my response to you but your reply kinda caught me off-guard since he's still being heavily mentioned in this thread as a top 3-5 player. If you think he deserves to be higher than that, that's fine but that's no disrespect to him in a season where CP, Curry, Harden, and Davis have been arguably better when you look at the entire RS + playoffs which is what this thread is about.

[JLei]

The bigger difference is that unlike 2012 he's not as willing to go into the post and seems more content playing on the perimeter even when his shot isn't falling. IIRC he was a horrible 17% or 20% outside the paint after game 6 against Boston lol but still dominated all those games.

His personal efficiency is down but they are still ripping off a 111 OTRG with him on the floor against the above average defenses 11th and 12th best defensive teams in the league. 11 and 12 Heat (until the 12 Finals when they unleashed Battier) never got to that level. And Bron is doing everything on O getting them to that 111 OTRG (and it's too much to be honest with the overhandling which is part of the personal efficiency drop).

Look at this.
http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/drives/

Bron by existing and driving to the basket/ posting up just sucks in the defense even if he isn't making the layups. And this doesn't include secondary assists which he has 9 of this playoffs, which given that Cleveland is good at swinging the ball would extend his big lead over everyone else in team offense.

You guys are way too caught up in personal efficiency instead of looking at the impact on the teams offense. Yes he can't shoot right now but still doesn't make him way less effective. Less effective sure but not the HUGE DECLINE you guys are talking about.

And his defense has been almost as good as 2011/2012 so far this playoffs. He's not been nearly good as he was in 13/14 when his jumper was on but he's still been a better offensive player than 11/12 Bron and a little bit worse defensive player.

The myth that he's been garbage this year on O needs to stop. He's different but only a little bit less effective than 13/14 Bron.

You have a habit of doing this sometimes where you will post in regards to LeBron and then lump every negative thing others are saying and post that in a reply to comments which don't really say all of those things.

For starters GSP and I think he's playing his way out of top 3 SO FAR, top 3 in the league so far which is hardly saying that he's been garbage on O this year. Secondly, I have mentioned it repeatedly that he had a great second half of the RS here. His 5 playoff games has been underwhelming by his standards. You can use team Ortg all you want but he clearly hasn't looked very impressive and it was against Boston. Let's not get carried away here. It's not just his personal efficiency but in the Boston series he did look like to be in a lot of chill mode before turning it on in the 4th.

He did have a bad game 1 against the Bulls and you can try to spin that anyway you want but it was a garbage game. Game 2 he was great again and I haven't seen anyone here bring up his efficiency for that game when you could see how great he was playing. That was clearly more like the post-vacation LeBron.

Again, no one has said half of things you are talking about in your post ITT.

I am sorry if I come off as rude in my response to you but your reply kinda caught me off-guard since he's still being heavily mentioned in this thread as a top 3-5 player. If you think he deserves to be higher than that, that's fine but that's no disrespect to him in a season where CP, Curry, Harden, and Davis have been arguably better when you look at the entire RS + playoffs which is what this thread is about.

I'm actually fine with him not being in the top 4. Curry, Harden, Davis and CP3 have been incredible this year and have been more valuable and deserve to be higher on a player of the year list. Personally as of right now he is 4/5 on my list.

It's stuff like this that irks me.

"Lebrons jumper is just completely gone, playmaking isnt as good. Hes has similar struggles as 11 and 12 Miami offensively (and his defense isnt on the level it was then) this is a big drop from the complete skillset he showed last season and 13"

It's not a big drop on offense and his defense has been very good to elite even. It's that most of this board has made generalized he's not as good anymore without really digging into it. There's so much of he can't shoot anymore so therefore he's worse/ his turnovers are up therefore he's worse on offense. And then everybody fails to mention they are running off a GOAT offense (post break) and he's over handling ball/ making 80% of the decisions doing it. His playmaking is worse? Really?

To be clear. He isn't as good but it ain't that much.

[PaulieWal]

I'm actually fine with him not being in the top 4. Curry, Harden, Davis and CP3 have been incredible this year and have been more valuable and deserve to be higher on a player of the year list. Personally as of right now he is 4/5 on my list.

It's stuff like this that irks me.

"Lebrons jumper is just completely gone, playmaking isnt as good. Hes has similar struggles as 11 and 12 Miami offensively (and his defense isnt on the level it was then) this is a big drop from the complete skillset he showed last season and 13"

It's not a big drop on offense and his defense has been very good to elite even. It's that most of this board has made generalized he's not as good anymore without really digging into it. He isn't as good but it ain't that much.

Then maybe you should have directly quoted GSP instead of me. My response to him where I added a large part of his struggle in terms of his scoring and efficiency was coming from him not going into the post as much didn't mean that I agreed with all of what he was saying. Again, you are a great poster but this is the second time you have done this sort of thing with me and I don't think it's really fair when I have to deal with straw-man arguments like him being garbage on O or something when I haven't said anything close to that and still have him in my top 4 currently.

[JLei]

I'm actually fine with him not being in the top 4. Curry, Harden, Davis and CP3 have been incredible this year and have been more valuable and deserve to be higher on a player of the year list. Personally as of right now he is 4/5 on my list.

It's stuff like this that irks me.

"Lebrons jumper is just completely gone, playmaking isnt as good. Hes has similar struggles as 11 and 12 Miami offensively (and his defense isnt on the level it was then) this is a big drop from the complete skillset he showed last season and 13"

It's not a big drop on offense and his defense has been very good to elite even. It's that most of this board has made generalized he's not as good anymore without really digging into it. He isn't as good but it ain't that much.

Then maybe you should have directly quoted GSP instead of me. My response to him where I added a large part of his struggle in terms of his scoring and efficiency was coming from him not going into the post as much didn't mean that I agreed with all of what he was saying. Again, you are a great poster but this is the second time you have done this sort of thing with me and I don't think it's really fair when I have to deal with straw-man arguments like him being garbage on O or something when I haven't said anything close to that and still have him in my top 4 currently.

Yep should have quoted him. I'm mad at the world/ the board. Not you haha. You are a great poster too.

[PaulieWal]

Yep should have quoted him. I'm mad at the world/ the board. Not you haha. You are a great poster too.

No worries, we are good. I was just taken aback by some of the straw-man stuff which I haven't said or think because if you think that he's been completely bad on O then he really shouldn't be in anyone's top 5. That being said, his 6 playoff games have been more or less underwhelming save for last night. I don't think you can disagree with that.

[CBA]

Despite the 7 turnovers, he held a higher ORTG than Blake with 7 assists, 32 points on 68%TS, and the highest +/- of the game. As lackluster as Harden was in the first half, Blake was in the second - 8 points on 9 field goals, IIRC.

I understand it's difficult for people to remove their perception of what's occurring from the "narrative."

No narrative, but frankly single game plus minus isn't very useful. Harden would have been my mvp vote, but he hasnt played well at all by that standard. 7 tos isn't good. It was ugly and they struuggked at home to be LA without Paul. Not good.

You know you just repeated your previous post, right? 7 turnovers didn't stop him from producing most of Houston's offense extremely efficiently. Again, Harden was more efficient than Blake who, according to you, was super impressive. Yet Harden didn't play well at all?

Sorry, but that doesn't come close to adding up.

Despite the 7 turnovers, he held a higher ORTG than Blake with 7 assists, 32 points on 68%TS, and the highest +/- of the game. As lackluster as Harden was in the first half, Blake was in the second - 8 points on 9 field goals, IIRC.

I understand it's difficult for people to remove their perception of what's occurring from the "narrative."

Well Blake had a 61%TS himself and their ORtg differs on 0.03 PPP, which is nothing too significant for a single game. I'd say Crawford chucking up a million stupid shots had more to do with Blake's lower ORtg than anything. The fact that Blake only had 9 FG after such an impressive 1st half is more significant to me than him scoring only 8 points. And I blame Doc for allowing it and Crawford for being himself, mostly.

Okay...I didn't say Blake played poorly. I'm saying there is no logical way to come to the conclusion that Blake played really well, yet Harden played really poorly.

[bondom34]

Despite the 7 turnovers, he held a higher ORTG than Blake with 7 assists, 32 points on 68%TS, and the highest +/- of the game. As lackluster as Harden was in the first half, Blake was in the second - 8 points on 9 field goals, IIRC.

I understand it's difficult for people to remove their perception of what's occurring from the "narrative."

No narrative, but frankly single game plus minus isn't very useful. Harden would have been my mvp vote, but he hasnt played well at all by that standard. 7 tos isn't good. It was ugly and they struuggked at home to be LA without Paul. Not good.

You know you just repeated your previous post, right? 7 turnovers didn't stop him from producing most of Houston's offense extremely efficiently. Again, Harden was more efficient than Blake who, according to you, was super impressive. Yet Harden didn't play well at all?

Sorry, but that doesn't come close to adding up.

Despite the 7 turnovers, he held a higher ORTG than Blake with 7 assists, 32 points on 68%TS, and the highest +/- of the game. As lackluster as Harden was in the first half, Blake was in the second - 8 points on 9 field goals, IIRC.

I understand it's difficult for people to remove their perception of what's occurring from the "narrative."

Well Blake had a 61%TS himself and their ORtg differs on 0.03 PPP, which is nothing too significant for a single game. I'd say Crawford chucking up a million stupid shots had more to do with Blake's lower ORtg than anything. The fact that Blake only had 9 FG after such an impressive 1st half is more significant to me than him scoring only 8 points. And I blame Doc for allowing it and Crawford for being himself, mostly.

And again, I don't know what you're saying. Blake to anyone here has clearly been better through 2 games, unless your arguement is "well TS is all that matters". Harden played about 1 good quarter through 8 so far. He didn't play well at all until about the end of the 3rd last night, and he again hasn't even been the best on his own team, Dwight was. Blake played more minutes and did more overall for his team on both ends of the court.

The standard here isn't a good game, its a good game when compared to games played by Curry, Lebron, Davis, Westbrook, Leonard, Griffin, Paul, etc. There's a big difference. If I said Trevor Ariza had the game Harden did I'd say it was fantastic, but I'd expect more from Harden. I'm not sure whats so hard to get. There's no witch hunt for the guy, he was my RS MVP, he's been subpar vs. LA.

[CBA]

You're moving goalposts. You said that Blake clearly outperformed Harden in Game 2. That was incorrect. If your argument was that Blake performed better over the course of two games, then that's probably what you should have said in the first place.

[bondom34]

You're moving goalposts. You said that Blake clearly outperformed Harden in Game 2. That was incorrect. If your argument was that Blake performed better over the course of two games, then that's probably what you should have said in the first place.

I'd still say he did, unless your arguement is "well, his TS was worse". Harden had a good quarter, thats it.

[CBA]

That's an interesting oversimplification of my previous post. Like I said, Harden produced more offense more efficiently while holding the highest +/- in the game. As poorly as Harden played in the first half, Blake played just as bad in the second.

[bondom34]

That's an interesting oversimplification of my previous post. Like I said, Harden produced more offense more efficiently while holding the highest +/- in the game. As poorly as Harden played in the first half, Blake played just as bad in the second.

Alright, your entitled to your own opinion.

[GSP]

Hardens defense is so bad. Hes put more effort than last year but thats about it hes still a bad defender, below avg at absolute best. I just dont see how he has any case over Steph, Cp3, Davis, Lebron or Westbrook. I think Blake and Cousins are better basketball players as well but they havent had better full years. I dont think the gap b/w Harden and Butler/Wall/Kyrie/Kawhi is big either

He played well against Dallas but post Rondo they were just a mess of a team w/ the worst perimeter defense by far in the playoffs.

[bondom34]

Hardens defense is so bad. Hes put more effort than last year but thats about it hes still a bad defender, below avg at absolute best. I just dont see how he has any case over Steph, Cp3, Davis, Lebron or Westbrook. I think Blake and Cousins are better basketball players as well but they havent had better full years. I dont think the gap b/w Harden and Butler/Wall/Kyrie/Kawhi is big either

He played well against Dallas but post Rondo they were just a mess of a team w/ the worst perimeter defense by far in the playoffs.

I'm starting to get to this point too, I thought he was MVP caliber in the RS, but he may drop from my top 3 at this point. He's been bad this whole series.

[Jaivl]

Hardens defense is so bad. Hes put more effort than last year but thats about it hes still a bad defender, below avg at absolute best. I just dont see how he has any case over Steph, Cp3, Davis, Lebron or Westbrook.

I don't see how Westbrook was better on defense than Harden.

[Asianiac_24]

My rankings so far would be:

1. Curry
2. Davis
3. Harden
4. Chris Paul

5. LeBron James
6. Westbrook
7. Blake Griffin

However, if Griffin continues to play like this, and LeBron keeps shooting 50 TS%, I might actually move Griffin to 5 and LeBron to 7. LeBron has just been really sub-par with his shooting, and his playmaking is getting offset by his high turnovers as well.

[trex_8063]

It's not a big drop on offense and his defense has been very good to elite even. It's that most of this board has made generalized he's not as good anymore without really digging into it. There's so much of he can't shoot anymore so therefore he's worse/ his turnovers are up therefore he's worse on offense. And then everybody fails to mention they are running off a GOAT offense (post break) and he's over handling ball/ making 80% of the decisions doing it. His playmaking is worse? Really?

To be clear. He isn't as good but it ain't that much.

Is there a function on bbref to screen for team ORtg (or DRtg, or whatever) for a specific date-range? Or do you have to just figure it out the hard way (go thru, game-by-game)?

[MO12msu]

Is there a function on bbref to screen for team ORtg (or DRtg, or whatever) for a specific date-range? Or do you have to just figure it out the hard way (go thru, game-by-game)?

Yep, go to the team page, then game logs, then switch to advanced game log. Then click a starting game date and an ending game date and the numbers will pop up for that range.

Cavs posted a 113 ORTG btw (7.4 above league average).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/tea ... l_advanced

[trex_8063]

Is there a function on bbref to screen for team ORtg (or DRtg, or whatever) for a specific date-range? Or do you have to just figure it out the hard way (go thru, game-by-game)?

Yep, go to the team page, then game logs, then switch to advanced game log. Then click a starting game date and an ending game date and the numbers will pop up for that range.

Cats posted a 113 ORTG btw (7.4 above league average).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/tea ... l_advanced

Thanks!
Man, that's awesome. And here I've figured stuff like that out the long way (which sucks).

And actually, if you check them out from game 40 thru the end of the season (after that entirely lackluster 19-20 start), they had an ORtg of 114.4 (+8.8 to league average, which is indeed GOAT-level).

I was searching for the actual highest ORtg ever; by quick non-comprehensive search, it appears to be the '87 Lakers at 115.6 (but is only +7.3 to league avg for that year, fwiw). '05 Suns had ORtg +8.4 to league avg (114.5). '10 Suns had ORtg of 115.3 (but is only +7.7 relative to league).

EDIT: Man! I've now just discovered the "Advanced Game Log" for individual players, which allows the same function (of clicking on a starting game and an ending game). The "Basic" game log doesn't allow that for individual players......so that too is something I'd always done the hard way. All that time wasted......

[Doctor MJ]

Hardens defense is so bad. Hes put more effort than last year but thats about it hes still a bad defender, below avg at absolute best. I just dont see how he has any case over Steph, Cp3, Davis, Lebron or Westbrook.

I don't see how Westbrook was better on defense than Harden.

Yeah I can't imagine the scenario where I'd be using Westbrook's defense as a positive this season. Every possible way you could abandon defensive fundamentals to try to make a glamour play that would get you quick points on the other end, he did it.

[NinjaSheppard]

If Harden deserves blame for the Clipper series Curry deserves some also for the Memphis series.

He has been horrible on both ends. At least Harden is scoring efficiently