ImageImageImageImageImage

FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread

Moderators: j4remi, HerSports85, NoLayupRule, GONYK, Jeff Van Gully, dakomish23, Deeeez Knicks, mpharris36

User avatar
moocow007
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 98,248
And1: 25,705
Joined: Jan 07, 2002
Location: In front of the computer, where else?
       

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2761 » by moocow007 » Wed May 13, 2015 1:35 pm

malik959 wrote:Question, I haven't seen much of Tobias Harris other than highlights in-which he reminds me of a taller Melo. what are his positives and negatives, and what could he bring to the table in a triangle offense? Does he play Defense?


Harris isn't taller than Anthony. He's basically a younger lesser version of Anthony. There's really not much of a reason to use the amount of money it will take to sign him to get a backup for Anthony or as an Anthony replacement 3 years from now. You really can't start them both at the forward positions IMO. Harris doesn't shoot well from outside, is not a good passer at all and he had a tendency to black hole the ball once it gets into his hands.
BowlRips
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,691
And1: 2,934
Joined: Jul 16, 2009
     

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2762 » by BowlRips » Wed May 13, 2015 2:30 pm

moocow007 wrote:
malik959 wrote:Question, I haven't seen much of Tobias Harris other than highlights in-which he reminds me of a taller Melo. what are his positives and negatives, and what could he bring to the table in a triangle offense? Does he play Defense?


Harris isn't taller than Anthony. He's basically a younger lesser version of Anthony. There's really not much of a reason to use the amount of money it will take to sign him to get a backup for Anthony or as an Anthony replacement 3 years from now. You really can't start them both at the forward positions IMO. Harris doesn't shoot well from outside, is not a good passer at all and he had a tendency to black hole the ball once it gets into his hands.


He's basically Melo without the "it" factor and the ability to score any and every single time
People complain about Melo's game as it is as a ball stopper, black hole etc. I dont buy into that so much but dont see how Harris would be a fit when his game replicates Melo's so much.
User avatar
dakomish23
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 58,788
And1: 48,762
Joined: Sep 22, 2013
Location: Empire State
     

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2763 » by dakomish23 » Wed May 13, 2015 2:56 pm

Myth #1 PJax is anti small ball

PJax did a lot of small ball with Rodman at C in games. He had a height advantage 1-3 who also were good rebounders and defenders so he could do that.

Myth #2 All PJax wants is a good shooter at PG

So why did they put BJ Armstrong (a great shooter) in the expansion draft, and sign Harper who was a mediocre shooter at best? They had to match up with big ORL guards they lost to the year before. There is no prototype point guard for PJax that he's set on. Their may be an ideal fit in his mind but that does not set it in stone.

No one knows what pJax has in store. His championship teams had significantly different rosters around the stars. The only common theme I see is an unstoppable scoring force. I wouldn't be surprised if we a roster that don't resemble anything he's done in the past.
Jimmit79 wrote:Yea RJ played well he was definitely the x factor


#FreeJimmit
User avatar
Meat
Head Coach
Posts: 7,314
And1: 5,087
Joined: Jun 30, 2013
     

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2764 » by Meat » Wed May 13, 2015 3:09 pm

BowlRips wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
malik959 wrote:Question, I haven't seen much of Tobias Harris other than highlights in-which he reminds me of a taller Melo. what are his positives and negatives, and what could he bring to the table in a triangle offense? Does he play Defense?


Harris isn't taller than Anthony. He's basically a younger lesser version of Anthony. There's really not much of a reason to use the amount of money it will take to sign him to get a backup for Anthony or as an Anthony replacement 3 years from now. You really can't start them both at the forward positions IMO. Harris doesn't shoot well from outside, is not a good passer at all and he had a tendency to black hole the ball once it gets into his hands.


He's basically Melo without the "it" factor and the ability to score any and every single time
People complain about Melo's game as it is as a ball stopper, black hole etc. I dont buy into that so much but dont see how Harris would be a fit when his game replicates Melo's so much.

the "it" factor that he's lacking is the ability to bully people down low, he doesnt have melo's deceptive strength
User avatar
NoLayupRule
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 48,099
And1: 11,028
Joined: Dec 06, 2002
Location: Playoffs Fool!
Contact:

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2765 » by NoLayupRule » Wed May 13, 2015 3:25 pm

Meat wrote:
Johnny Hoops wrote:Who says no on this one.......

Knicks get #1 pick -- Magic get #5 pick.

Knicks trade #1 (Towns), Calderon & THJ.
Knicks get V-Oladipo, E-Fournier, M-Harkless and pick #5 (WCS).

Knicks sign Monroe & T-Harris.

Oladipo/Schved
Galloway /Fournier
Melo/Harkless/Early
T-Harris/L-Thomas/Lou
Monroe/WCS

If I could get 2 top young defensive players Oladipo/WCS for the #1 pick I think about it. Plus Oladipo is the type of guy / player that get his own and get into the paint.

Doubt Orlando would move Victor but they could pair Towns with Vucevic and pair E-Payton with THJ in backcourt.


idk about harris and wtf wcs at 5 like justice aint the ****

basically we become the NY Magic plus Melo

lol, not sure any team does that complete a turnover
Johnny Hoops
RealGM
Posts: 12,635
And1: 2,212
Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2766 » by Johnny Hoops » Wed May 13, 2015 3:34 pm

Meat wrote:
Johnny Hoops wrote:Who says no on this one.......

Knicks get #1 pick -- Magic get #5 pick.

Knicks trade #1 (Towns), Calderon & THJ.
Knicks get V-Oladipo, E-Fournier, M-Harkless and pick #5 (WCS).

Knicks sign Monroe & T-Harris.

Oladipo/Schved
Galloway /Fournier
Melo/Harkless/Early
T-Harris/L-Thomas/Lou
Monroe/WCS

If I could get 2 top young defensive players Oladipo/WCS for the #1 pick I think about it. Plus Oladipo is the type of guy / player that get his own and get into the paint.

Doubt Orlando would move Victor but they could pair Towns with Vucevic and pair E-Payton with THJ in backcourt.


idk about harris and wtf wcs at 5 like justice aint the ****


Yeah - I'm starting to come around on W-Justice. It took me a bit but I'm starting to believe he might be able to be a legit offensive player at the next level and who knows -- he might turn out to be the best player of the perceived top 5.

So let me ask folks this.

If Knicks did take Justice -- do we think he could play the SG position?

I'd prefer playing bigger at the 2 (Justice) and 3 (Melo) --- than playing down with those to at the 3 and 4.
Johnny Hoops
RealGM
Posts: 12,635
And1: 2,212
Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2767 » by Johnny Hoops » Wed May 13, 2015 3:41 pm

GONYK wrote:
Johnny Hoops wrote:
yb90 wrote:
Because they play smaller than their heights.


LOL - he's correct on that point.


Perhaps, but that is still an expectation of size at those position, even if those particular players could not get the job done


Yeah - not defending anyone's point just chuckling at how soft J-Smith and Bargs are.
User avatar
Meat
Head Coach
Posts: 7,314
And1: 5,087
Joined: Jun 30, 2013
     

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2768 » by Meat » Wed May 13, 2015 3:42 pm

Johnny Hoops wrote:
Meat wrote:
Johnny Hoops wrote:Who says no on this one.......

Knicks get #1 pick -- Magic get #5 pick.

Knicks trade #1 (Towns), Calderon & THJ.
Knicks get V-Oladipo, E-Fournier, M-Harkless and pick #5 (WCS).

Knicks sign Monroe & T-Harris.

Oladipo/Schved
Galloway /Fournier
Melo/Harkless/Early
T-Harris/L-Thomas/Lou
Monroe/WCS

If I could get 2 top young defensive players Oladipo/WCS for the #1 pick I think about it. Plus Oladipo is the type of guy / player that get his own and get into the paint.

Doubt Orlando would move Victor but they could pair Towns with Vucevic and pair E-Payton with THJ in backcourt.


idk about harris and wtf wcs at 5 like justice aint the ****


Yeah - I'm starting to come around on W-Justice. It took me a bit but I'm starting to believe he might be able to be a legit offensive player at the next level and who knows -- he might turn out to be the best player of the perceived top 5.

So let me ask folks this.

If Knicks did take Justice -- do we think he could play the SG position?

I'd prefer playing bigger at the 2 (Justice) and 3 (Melo) --- than playing down with those to at the 3 and 4.

him at the 2 works 9\10 times, being close to 230 he might have some problems with the rapido sg's tho
Johnny Hoops
RealGM
Posts: 12,635
And1: 2,212
Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2769 » by Johnny Hoops » Wed May 13, 2015 3:47 pm

Esq-4 wrote:
Crunch time 1 wrote:I would be happy with a lineup like this

Towns
Monroe
Melo
ELlis
Galloway


I know there are issues with Ellis, but I tend to agree that getting him and Monroe as top FA signings make us a strong team now regardless who we draft. Sprinkle is some other good small signings and a good draft pick and that gives us a playoff team with a long term future (if other smart moves are made)


I'm a Monta Ellis fan but not sure I want to bring in a small aging player to go with Melo.

I'd prefer to error on the side of youth --- I think the best bet for the franchise is to put together a core of 4-5 younger pieces around Melo. I'd get more excited by signing a younger dude like R-Jackson, B-Knight, K-Middleton or T-Harris than Monta and again I'm a Monta fan. Plus - not sure Monta fits triangle or Phil mold and you'd be pairing him with a smaller guard in Galloway in the back-court.
Johnny Hoops
RealGM
Posts: 12,635
And1: 2,212
Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2770 » by Johnny Hoops » Wed May 13, 2015 3:52 pm

moocow007 wrote:
malik959 wrote:Question, I haven't seen much of Tobias Harris other than highlights in-which he reminds me of a taller Melo. what are his positives and negatives, and what could he bring to the table in a triangle offense? Does he play Defense?


Harris isn't taller than Anthony. He's basically a younger lesser version of Anthony. There's really not much of a reason to use the amount of money it will take to sign him to get a backup for Anthony or as an Anthony replacement 3 years from now. You really can't start them both at the forward positions IMO. Harris doesn't shoot well from outside, is not a good passer at all and he had a tendency to black hole the ball once it gets into his hands.


I don't know Moo - Harris is only 22 and he's very talented.

I don't get the argument that you can't play Melo and Harris together -- why NOT? Heck we won 54 games with Melo at the 4 and guys like Shump/JR playing time at the 3. I know Phil appears to want to play bigger but I see no reason why Melo/Harris couldn't function very well most nights at the 3/4.

I think Harris has a game that will fit the triangle pretty well -- he moves better than Melo off the ball and he has the ability to both knock down perimeter shots and get to the basket off the dribble. He's not perfect but I don't see where he couldn't play both when Melo is on the floor and when Melo is resting.
Johnny Hoops
RealGM
Posts: 12,635
And1: 2,212
Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2771 » by Johnny Hoops » Wed May 13, 2015 4:00 pm

Meat wrote:
Johnny Hoops wrote:
Meat wrote:
idk about harris and wtf wcs at 5 like justice aint the ****


Yeah - I'm starting to come around on W-Justice. It took me a bit but I'm starting to believe he might be able to be a legit offensive player at the next level and who knows -- he might turn out to be the best player of the perceived top 5.

So let me ask folks this.

If Knicks did take Justice -- do we think he could play the SG position?

I'd prefer playing bigger at the 2 (Justice) and 3 (Melo) --- than playing down with those to at the 3 and 4.

him at the 2 works 9\10 times, being close to 230 he might have some problems with the rapido sg's tho


Ok - so let's say we draft Winslow and plan to play him at SG.

Who do we target as 2 or 3 "realistic" FA's to play with Justice/Melo?
User avatar
NoLayupRule
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 48,099
And1: 11,028
Joined: Dec 06, 2002
Location: Playoffs Fool!
Contact:

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2772 » by NoLayupRule » Wed May 13, 2015 4:23 pm

Johnny Hoops wrote:
Meat wrote:
Johnny Hoops wrote:Who says no on this one.......

Knicks get #1 pick -- Magic get #5 pick.

Knicks trade #1 (Towns), Calderon & THJ.
Knicks get V-Oladipo, E-Fournier, M-Harkless and pick #5 (WCS).

Knicks sign Monroe & T-Harris.

Oladipo/Schved
Galloway /Fournier
Melo/Harkless/Early
T-Harris/L-Thomas/Lou
Monroe/WCS

If I could get 2 top young defensive players Oladipo/WCS for the #1 pick I think about it. Plus Oladipo is the type of guy / player that get his own and get into the paint.

Doubt Orlando would move Victor but they could pair Towns with Vucevic and pair E-Payton with THJ in backcourt.


idk about harris and wtf wcs at 5 like justice aint the ****


Yeah - I'm starting to come around on W-Justice. It took me a bit but I'm starting to believe he might be able to be a legit offensive player at the next level and who knows -- he might turn out to be the best player of the perceived top 5.

So let me ask folks this.

If Knicks did take Justice -- do we think he could play the SG position?

I'd prefer playing bigger at the 2 (Justice) and 3 (Melo) --- than playing down with those to at the 3 and 4.

I think SG is his perfect position
SFs can be too big for him and his defense and BBIQ is so high that I think quicker, smaller guys will be less of an issue

I really like the kid. I think he has the potential to be a SG version of Kawai Leonard.

I want the other guys in front of him but if we ended up with Winslow I wouldn't be too mad either

the problem is that we need a stud and we need size. If we can land any of the other 4 I think they will be larger difference makers early on where Winslow may become the difference maker and big play maker on a championship level team in a couple of years. Like Leonard.
User avatar
NoLayupRule
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 48,099
And1: 11,028
Joined: Dec 06, 2002
Location: Playoffs Fool!
Contact:

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2773 » by NoLayupRule » Wed May 13, 2015 4:24 pm

Johnny Hoops wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
malik959 wrote:Question, I haven't seen much of Tobias Harris other than highlights in-which he reminds me of a taller Melo. what are his positives and negatives, and what could he bring to the table in a triangle offense? Does he play Defense?


Harris isn't taller than Anthony. He's basically a younger lesser version of Anthony. There's really not much of a reason to use the amount of money it will take to sign him to get a backup for Anthony or as an Anthony replacement 3 years from now. You really can't start them both at the forward positions IMO. Harris doesn't shoot well from outside, is not a good passer at all and he had a tendency to black hole the ball once it gets into his hands.


I don't know Moo - Harris is only 22 and he's very talented.

I don't get the argument that you can't play Melo and Harris together -- why NOT? Heck we won 54 games with Melo at the 4 and guys like Shump/JR playing time at the 3. I know Phil appears to want to play bigger but I see no reason why Melo/Harris couldn't function very well most nights at the 3/4.

I think Harris has a game that will fit the triangle pretty well -- he moves better than Melo off the ball and he has the ability to both knock down perimeter shots and get to the basket off the dribble. He's not perfect but I don't see where he couldn't play both when Melo is on the floor and when Melo is resting.

you could make it work but IMO you can't have a pair of ball dominant scorers in the triangle at the same position

Id rather have Deng who is a better two way player anyway and probably would cost less even
User avatar
NoLayupRule
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 48,099
And1: 11,028
Joined: Dec 06, 2002
Location: Playoffs Fool!
Contact:

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2774 » by NoLayupRule » Wed May 13, 2015 4:26 pm

Johnny Hoops wrote:
Meat wrote:
Johnny Hoops wrote:
Yeah - I'm starting to come around on W-Justice. It took me a bit but I'm starting to believe he might be able to be a legit offensive player at the next level and who knows -- he might turn out to be the best player of the perceived top 5.

So let me ask folks this.

If Knicks did take Justice -- do we think he could play the SG position?

I'd prefer playing bigger at the 2 (Justice) and 3 (Melo) --- than playing down with those to at the 3 and 4.

him at the 2 works 9\10 times, being close to 230 he might have some problems with the rapido sg's tho


Ok - so let's say we draft Winslow and plan to play him at SG.

Who do we target as 2 or 3 "realistic" FA's to play with Justice/Melo?

Id go after Deng if we plan to have Melo at the 4 and that way you have versatility and defense all over

but I think you play Justice at the 2, Melo at the 3 and someone like Milsap at the 4. Someone who can play both sides of the floor and stretch the defense
User avatar
Meat
Head Coach
Posts: 7,314
And1: 5,087
Joined: Jun 30, 2013
     

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2775 » by Meat » Wed May 13, 2015 4:40 pm

NoLayupRule wrote:
Johnny Hoops wrote:
Meat wrote:
idk about harris and wtf wcs at 5 like justice aint the ****


Yeah - I'm starting to come around on W-Justice. It took me a bit but I'm starting to believe he might be able to be a legit offensive player at the next level and who knows -- he might turn out to be the best player of the perceived top 5.

So let me ask folks this.

If Knicks did take Justice -- do we think he could play the SG position?

I'd prefer playing bigger at the 2 (Justice) and 3 (Melo) --- than playing down with those to at the 3 and 4.

I think SG is his perfect position
SFs can be too big for him and his defense and BBIQ is so high that I think quicker, smaller guys will be less of an issue

I really like the kid. I think he has the potential to be a SG version of Kawai Leonard.

I want the other guys in front of him but if we ended up with Winslow I wouldn't be too mad either

the problem is that we need a stud and we need size. If we can land any of the other 4 I think they will be larger difference makers early on where Winslow may become the difference maker and big play maker on a championship level team in a couple of years. Like Leonard.



you gotta imagine that if they're drafting justice they probably traded down to 5 or 6(unless they got raped in the lottery), hopefully there's a deal in place where they've picked up another asset and only need 2 more.
HarthorneWingo
RealGM
Posts: 97,546
And1: 62,686
Joined: May 16, 2005

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2776 » by HarthorneWingo » Wed May 13, 2015 5:01 pm

moocow007 wrote:
malik959 wrote:Question, I haven't seen much of Tobias Harris other than highlights in-which he reminds me of a taller Melo. what are his positives and negatives, and what could he bring to the table in a triangle offense? Does he play Defense?


Harris isn't taller than Anthony. He's basically a younger lesser version of Anthony. There's really not much of a reason to use the amount of money it will take to sign him to get a backup for Anthony or as an Anthony replacement 3 years from now. You really can't start them both at the forward positions IMO. Harris doesn't shoot well from outside, is not a good passer at all and he had a tendency to black hole the ball once it gets into his hands.



I'd be curious to know whether this article changes your opinion on Harris. It's pretty interesting sabermetric analysis of Harris and why he may be a good fit for us as a hybrid forward (or Versatile Forward) playing alongside Carmelo.

http://www.basketballanalyticsbook.com

A New Position: The Versatile Forward (VF)

The NBA game is changing, and then so should the type of players made to thrive in it. Modern NBA offenses need to emphasize floor spacing, but a team can’t field five J.J. Redicks simply because they can shoot. NBA teams also need size and strength. Thus, a new position, the Versatile Forward (VF), was born. Forwards must have the size to defend bigger opponents and to rebound. In the modern game, the best forwards, the VFs, will also be able to step out to the perimeter, shoot the 3, and in the ideal scenario, attack off the dribble.

This season, the Hawks have risen to the top of the East with a VF in Paul Millsap. The Warriors lead the NBA with a VF in Draymond Green. Last season, VFs LeBron James and Kawhi Leonard met in the Finals. Across the league, teams are finding success with forwards that possess a truly versatile skill set.

*****

Inside-Outside Versatility

In the modern NBA game, the forward with the versatility to shoot from the perimeter, handle the ball on drives and post up is king.

This season, Harris shot 36.4% from three. Let’s break that down a bit further. He shot:

38.0% on catch and shoot threes.
39.4% on threes taken with 4 or more seconds on the shot clock.
37.9% on open 3s (when no defender was within 4 feet).
The following shows how these shooting percentages compare to the 2014-15 league averages.

There are forwards that can score, rebound and shoot. As we have seen, the list isn’t long and contains some of the league’s most sought after talent (such as Durant and Love). Not all of these forwards’ versatility extends to ball handling on the perimeter.

The pick and roll is a staple of the modern NBA offense. Big men with limited shooting or ball handling skills are relegated to rolling, but occasionally, a forward comes along that is also efficient handling the ball off of screens, opening up the possibility for the offense to create defensive mismatches.

Harris had 150 possessions as the ball handler, and he was actually Orlando’s most efficient player in those situations. The table below shows the pick and roll ball handler statistics for the Magic this season (as recorded by Synergy).

Image

Harris averaged 0.85 points per possession. That’s considerably better than the league average of 0.79. For comparison, Harris’s 0.85 points per possession was better than that of Eric Bledsoe, Rudy Gay, Monta Ellis, LeBron James, Russell Westbrook, John Wall, and Dwyane Wade.

Orlando tended to run their on-the-ball screens for Oladipo and Payton. Payton, in particular, was far less efficient than Harris. This presents one of many examples where Orlando underutilized Harris.

The data shows that Harris is an efficient ball handler on the perimeter and possesses excellent shooting range. Does his offensive versatility extend to the post?

According to Synergy, Harris had 106 post up possessions and averaged 1.04 points per possession (PPP). He was the most efficient post up player in the NBA (among players with at least 100 post up possessions).

Check out how Harris’s post efficiency compared with some of the game’s elite post players.

Image

The Best Defense is No Shot at All
It’s foolish to judge an NFL cornerback only by his pass deflections and interceptions. The best cornerbacks rarely leave their man open enough for the pass attempt, and even when they do, the smarter quarterbacks often choose to challenge another defender. It’s hard for a cornerback to get an interception when the quarterback is afraid to challenge him.

The NBA is similar. Offenses can typically avoid any one defender, especially if that defender isn’t charged with guarding the rim. When a team does not like the defensive matchup on their first offensive option, a simple screen can switch the defenders.

When judging NBA defenders, it’s important to look beyond opponent shooting percentages. Giving up the shot (especially at the rim) is already a partial failure. Offenses will try to avoid the best defenders. Even when challenged, the best defenders force passes or turnovers before shots. The best defense in the NBA is no shot at all.

Synergy tracks defensive possessions in the NBA. They track when the defender faces isolations, pick and rolls, post-ups, hand-offs, and off-the-ball screens. We will refer to the collection of these defensive possessions as Defensive Possessions Against (DPA). Together, these constitute all of the defensive possessions (that Synergy tracks) where the defender is in a position to defend his man with all of his defensive options available. It excludes transition plays, put-backs after offensive rebounds, and kick outs after the shooters’ defenders dropped to help.

The chart below displays the DPA, points allowed on DPA, and FGM on DPA per 48 minutes played for six Orlando Magic. These are the six Magic that played at least 1000 minutes in 2014-15.

Image

Tobias had the fewest DPA, the fewest points allowed and the fewest FGM against. All of the data suggests that Tobias is either proficient at preventing shots when opponents attack him or opponents are not choosing to attack Tobias as often as his teammates. In either case, the data supports that Tobias is a capable defender.

On the DPA, opponents shot 38% against Tobias. That number is respectable. For comparison, Oladipo and Payton both allowed opponents to shoot 44%. When we factor in the low rate at which Tobias allows shots, we see his overall defensive performance is quite impressive. Tobias allowed 2.51 FGM per 48 minutes played. Harris played 34.8 minutes per game. So, he allowed 1.82 FGM on DPA per game. Even if Harris had held opponents to a ridiculously low 28% shooting on DPA, it would have only reduced is FGA against by .5 FGM per game (or 1 FG every 2 games).

Final Thoughts

The numbers suggest that Tobias Harris is one of the better VFs in the NBA today. Statistically, he stands among some of the game’s biggest stars. He is only 22 years old and has been praised for his character and work ethic. Harris is certain to improve on his already first-class ability. Tobias Harris is the most underrated player in the NBA, but it won’t be long before he gets the credit he deserves.

User avatar
NoLayupRule
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 48,099
And1: 11,028
Joined: Dec 06, 2002
Location: Playoffs Fool!
Contact:

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2777 » by NoLayupRule » Wed May 13, 2015 5:20 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
malik959 wrote:Question, I haven't seen much of Tobias Harris other than highlights in-which he reminds me of a taller Melo. what are his positives and negatives, and what could he bring to the table in a triangle offense? Does he play Defense?


Harris isn't taller than Anthony. He's basically a younger lesser version of Anthony. There's really not much of a reason to use the amount of money it will take to sign him to get a backup for Anthony or as an Anthony replacement 3 years from now. You really can't start them both at the forward positions IMO. Harris doesn't shoot well from outside, is not a good passer at all and he had a tendency to black hole the ball once it gets into his hands.



I'd be curious to know whether this article changes your opinion on Harris. It's pretty interesting sabermetric analysis of Harris and why he may be a good fit for us as a hybrid forward (or Versatile Forward) playing alongside Carmelo.

http://www.basketballanalyticsbook.com

A New Position: The Versatile Forward (VF)

The NBA game is changing, and then so should the type of players made to thrive in it. Modern NBA offenses need to emphasize floor spacing, but a team can’t field five J.J. Redicks simply because they can shoot. NBA teams also need size and strength. Thus, a new position, the Versatile Forward (VF), was born. Forwards must have the size to defend bigger opponents and to rebound. In the modern game, the best forwards, the VFs, will also be able to step out to the perimeter, shoot the 3, and in the ideal scenario, attack off the dribble.

This season, the Hawks have risen to the top of the East with a VF in Paul Millsap. The Warriors lead the NBA with a VF in Draymond Green. Last season, VFs LeBron James and Kawhi Leonard met in the Finals. Across the league, teams are finding success with forwards that possess a truly versatile skill set.

*****

Inside-Outside Versatility

In the modern NBA game, the forward with the versatility to shoot from the perimeter, handle the ball on drives and post up is king.

This season, Harris shot 36.4% from three. Let’s break that down a bit further. He shot:

38.0% on catch and shoot threes.
39.4% on threes taken with 4 or more seconds on the shot clock.
37.9% on open 3s (when no defender was within 4 feet).
The following shows how these shooting percentages compare to the 2014-15 league averages.

There are forwards that can score, rebound and shoot. As we have seen, the list isn’t long and contains some of the league’s most sought after talent (such as Durant and Love). Not all of these forwards’ versatility extends to ball handling on the perimeter.

The pick and roll is a staple of the modern NBA offense. Big men with limited shooting or ball handling skills are relegated to rolling, but occasionally, a forward comes along that is also efficient handling the ball off of screens, opening up the possibility for the offense to create defensive mismatches.

Harris had 150 possessions as the ball handler, and he was actually Orlando’s most efficient player in those situations. The table below shows the pick and roll ball handler statistics for the Magic this season (as recorded by Synergy).

Image

Harris averaged 0.85 points per possession. That’s considerably better than the league average of 0.79. For comparison, Harris’s 0.85 points per possession was better than that of Eric Bledsoe, Rudy Gay, Monta Ellis, LeBron James, Russell Westbrook, John Wall, and Dwyane Wade.

Orlando tended to run their on-the-ball screens for Oladipo and Payton. Payton, in particular, was far less efficient than Harris. This presents one of many examples where Orlando underutilized Harris.

The data shows that Harris is an efficient ball handler on the perimeter and possesses excellent shooting range. Does his offensive versatility extend to the post?

According to Synergy, Harris had 106 post up possessions and averaged 1.04 points per possession (PPP). He was the most efficient post up player in the NBA (among players with at least 100 post up possessions).

Check out how Harris’s post efficiency compared with some of the game’s elite post players.

Image

The Best Defense is No Shot at All
It’s foolish to judge an NFL cornerback only by his pass deflections and interceptions. The best cornerbacks rarely leave their man open enough for the pass attempt, and even when they do, the smarter quarterbacks often choose to challenge another defender. It’s hard for a cornerback to get an interception when the quarterback is afraid to challenge him.

The NBA is similar. Offenses can typically avoid any one defender, especially if that defender isn’t charged with guarding the rim. When a team does not like the defensive matchup on their first offensive option, a simple screen can switch the defenders.

When judging NBA defenders, it’s important to look beyond opponent shooting percentages. Giving up the shot (especially at the rim) is already a partial failure. Offenses will try to avoid the best defenders. Even when challenged, the best defenders force passes or turnovers before shots. The best defense in the NBA is no shot at all.

Synergy tracks defensive possessions in the NBA. They track when the defender faces isolations, pick and rolls, post-ups, hand-offs, and off-the-ball screens. We will refer to the collection of these defensive possessions as Defensive Possessions Against (DPA). Together, these constitute all of the defensive possessions (that Synergy tracks) where the defender is in a position to defend his man with all of his defensive options available. It excludes transition plays, put-backs after offensive rebounds, and kick outs after the shooters’ defenders dropped to help.

The chart below displays the DPA, points allowed on DPA, and FGM on DPA per 48 minutes played for six Orlando Magic. These are the six Magic that played at least 1000 minutes in 2014-15.

Image

Tobias had the fewest DPA, the fewest points allowed and the fewest FGM against. All of the data suggests that Tobias is either proficient at preventing shots when opponents attack him or opponents are not choosing to attack Tobias as often as his teammates. In either case, the data supports that Tobias is a capable defender.

On the DPA, opponents shot 38% against Tobias. That number is respectable. For comparison, Oladipo and Payton both allowed opponents to shoot 44%. When we factor in the low rate at which Tobias allows shots, we see his overall defensive performance is quite impressive. Tobias allowed 2.51 FGM per 48 minutes played. Harris played 34.8 minutes per game. So, he allowed 1.82 FGM on DPA per game. Even if Harris had held opponents to a ridiculously low 28% shooting on DPA, it would have only reduced is FGA against by .5 FGM per game (or 1 FG every 2 games).

Final Thoughts

The numbers suggest that Tobias Harris is one of the better VFs in the NBA today. Statistically, he stands among some of the game’s biggest stars. He is only 22 years old and has been praised for his character and work ethic. Harris is certain to improve on his already first-class ability. Tobias Harris is the most underrated player in the NBA, but it won’t be long before he gets the credit he deserves.


I read that last tinge you posted it

its a very good article and very entertaining but its not so relevant to us

Melo is better in every way than Harris so we actually have that stretch 4 or VF - versatile forward - that this article talks about

If Harris were a UFA and we could get him for 7 mil then OK, Id be interested
But as a RFA hes gonna cost upwards of 10mil and thats too much

We'd be better off going after Deng {10mil} who is also a VF, or even Ryan Anderson {8.5 mil} or someone like that for cheaper

Im to sold on Harris because of his deficiencies on D, his focus and his contract status
User avatar
LJ4pointplay
Knicks Forum GM King
Posts: 8,283
And1: 1,324
Joined: Nov 30, 2008
     

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2778 » by LJ4pointplay » Wed May 13, 2015 6:23 pm

This might seem off-the-wall, and I recognize that, but if I was Phil I would be making a play for Anthony Davis. It would be a two-prong approach: 1) We trade Melo for the best package available. Let's say to the Lakers for Randle and their pick this year (let's say #4 overall in this hypo) and then we package it with our pick (for purposes of the hypo, we win the lottery), and Calderon (for cap saving reasons) to the Pelicans for Davis. Obviously I am assuming we get a little lucky here with ping pong balls.

So it would be #1 pick, #4 pick, Julius Randle, and Calderon for Anthony Davis. The Pelicans would have to seriously consider that offer because there is a realistic possibility that Davis leaves in a year.

We then have Anthony Davis (currently on a rookie deal) and an insane amount of cap space to build around him.

I hope this is something that Phil is at least considering/inquiring about.
Johnny Hoops
RealGM
Posts: 12,635
And1: 2,212
Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2779 » by Johnny Hoops » Wed May 13, 2015 6:32 pm

I respect your guys opinions but you guys really want to sign an aging / breaking down L-Deng?

Man - I get it - he's a tough guy and has intangibles but I don't want to go that route unless he'd be coming for $5M or something like that.
User avatar
NoLayupRule
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 48,099
And1: 11,028
Joined: Dec 06, 2002
Location: Playoffs Fool!
Contact:

Re: FREE AGENT/Trade/Transaction Idea thread (14'-15') 

Post#2780 » by NoLayupRule » Wed May 13, 2015 6:41 pm

Johnny Hoops wrote:I respect your guys opinions but you guys really want to sign an aging / breaking down L-Deng?

Man - I get it - he's a tough guy and has intangibles but I don't want to go that route unless he'd be coming for $5M or something like that.

I don't think you give him a very long contract, like 2 years or something, but I think he's well worth 10 a year
which is what he's making now

His ability to move the ball, rebound and especially defend as well as be a scoring threat is superb. He's also a winner and a big time play maker

we need more vets on this team for balance
especially the kind who play D and who've had success

Return to New York Knicks