Zach Lowe article on Suns and Sixers rebuild going in different directions

[Mr-Al]

Meh, I'd rather be a Sixers fan (even if this tanking plan turns to crap and Embidd can't hit the court) right now than a Suns fan.

said no one ever

[joyeuxnoel]

Meh, I'd rather be a Sixers fan (even if this tanking plan turns to crap and Embidd can't hit the court) right now than a Suns fan.

said no one ever

so there's no sixers fans right now? ok

[Mr-Al]

as well as salary dumping young talent

Who is this young talent we dumped? Marcus Morris?

Now I'm no fan of the Suns and I obviously don't have the inside info that their fans may have on their players but looking at Marcus' age his advanced stats and his small cap hit ...it seems as though you gave up something of value for absolutely nothing out of desperation ...which is generally not consistent with good decision making in NBA terms

lol lol lol lol

Marcus Morris was terrible. Absolutely terrible for ball movement, detrimental for the locker room, bad influence on his brother, and he also beat the **** out of a guy and might go to prison

[loserX]

I don't care if this 76ers rebuild takes 5+ years, which in undoubtedly will

That's totally fine, and it's your right. The problem is that a lot of people do care. From the article:

Philly needs to nail the draft, because big-time free agents don’t appear willing to consider the Sixers until they start winning a respectable number of games. Some agents have even called around to other teams, trying to ignite trade talks that would get their players out of Philadelphia, according to several league sources.

Some fans may be willing to wait forever. Some fans are surely not. But if the *players* aren't willing to put up with it then that strategy may be asking for trouble.

The Knicks already have a star, and the Lakers are still the Lakers...and we've seen what's happened to those teams in free agency this year. The Sixers (or any other team) can still try to build by losing, but the margin of error gets a lot smaller in an NBA where every team has cap space and players want to win.

I'm trying hard to understand your point. The whole point of Philly's rebuild is to land a star. There are three ways to land a star: 1.) Free agency; 2.) Trade; or 3.) Draft.

Start with #1. If LA and NY couldn't land a star player in FA, why would Philly want to rely on that avenue being in a less attractive market? I love Philly, but being realistic, it's not LA, NY or Miami. So it would be absolutely foolish for Philly to try and build a team on the hopes of landing a star through Free Agency. I won't say impossible, but probably extremely difficult.

Next is #2. If the Sixers want to land a star through a trade they are going to need certain things. Those things are called assets. Assets can be players, picks or cap space. So wouldn't it make sense for a team who is trying to acquire a star through trade to accumulate assets so that when a star becomes available they can make the best offer?

Finally #3. If the Sixers want to land a star, the most probable way to do it is to draft that star.

My point was that one fan saying "I'm okay with waiting forever" is fine, even numerous fans saying it is fine. But if the *players* aren't okay with it, then the team is going to have to come with a Plan B pretty darn fast. As in the quote Lowe provided, you already have guys wanting out.

Yes, you can get a star in the draft. Then what? The Knicks already have one, so everything must be peaches and cream, right? That didn't mean much to free agents, because the team doesn't seem ready to win. Any team that tries to build through losing needs to have an endgame in mind. BNelley24 might be happy to wait forever but that's not a plausible solution.

[miltk]

this is so not true, and philly is literally proving the point as we speak. minnie and the cklips have already created a model for failure

Didn't the Clips actually prove the success of it? tank as many years as you need, maybe it takes 10 or 12 if your draft picks don't pan out, as soon as you're lucky to get one star (Griffin) it will be a lot easier to get a second (Paul) and build a contender from there.

i wouldn't say so. this is a decades old frachise's worth of futility in which they have become the poster child for incompetence. a few good years has not really changed that because what did everyone say last year vs houston?...."same old clips"

[KramerDSP]

The #3 pick in two consecutive drafts while developing a promising prospect like Noel is a huge win in my book.

The ability to absorb contracts to reach the cap floor is also an underrated part of their strategy. Look at what they got from the kings. They gave up zero assets other than some cap space.

So far, it has been two drafts since the tanking began. I do not consider the mcw/noel draft as a tank year, more like a "treadmill" year.

Next draft, looks like two more lotto picks, and hopfully a healthy embiid for the season.
Noel is already a double double player and a mean rim protector.

Not sure about the list of total picks/tpes that sixers have next season, can someone post?

Personally, I would give Hinkie two more drafts and seasons and see where the team is at.

If by end of year 4 season of tanking the team is not in the playoff picture, I would call the strategy a huge failure.

But so far, other than the Embiid snag, I cant see how anyone can call it a failure. It just does not look good right now due to the injury.

It may seem like they are rolling the dice, but if i was an owner and you told me that during the first two years of rebuilding I would get the #3 pick in two consecutive drafts and in addition to that also having a 21 year old double double machine averaging 2blocks/2steals per game, I would be happy.

The Sixers have the following picks/assets:

- Jahlil Okafor
- Nerlens Noel
- Nik Stauskas
- Joel Embiid (if healthy)
- The Rights to Dario Saric (2016 or 2017 stateside arrival)
- Sixers 2016 1st (right to swap with Kings 1st unprotected)
- Lakers 2016 1st (top 3 protected until 2018 when it becomes unprotected)
- Miami 2016 1st (top 10 protected, then unprotected 2017)
- OKC 2016 1st (top 15 protected)
- Sixers 2017 1st (right to swap 1st with Kings unprotected)
- Sixers 2018 1st
- Kings 2018 1st (top 10 protected, then unprotected 2019)
- numerous second rounders
- young talent with upside and team friendly contracts (Covington, etc)
- and tens of millions of dollars in cap space.

[QRich3]

this is so not true, and philly is literally proving the point as we speak. minnie and the cklips have already created a model for failure

Didn't the Clips actually prove the success of it? tank as many years as you need, maybe it takes 10 or 12 if your draft picks don't pan out, as soon as you're lucky to get one star (Griffin) it will be a lot easier to get a second (Paul) and build a contender from there.

i wouldn't say so. this is a decades old frachise's worth of futility in which they have become the poster child for incompetence. a few good years has not really changed that because what did everyone say last year vs houston?...."same old clips"

lol are you trying to trash talk because you feel bad or did you forget what the point of the conversation was?

[miltk]

There's a difference between a treadmill team and an up-and-coming team. Treadmill is when a team is capped out with vets and have little to no young talent that could develop. Teams like OKC, Indy, and Chicago(pre Rose injury) had gotten the 8th seed, but they had the young talent that made major improvement.

gee really. treadmill - running but staying in place. i don't think that has anything to do with the factors you mentioned.

What I'm trying to point out is that the team is running, but won't get anywhere.

yes, but i'm saying it's not because of ",,,is capped out with vets and have little to no young talent that could develop". to me treadmill teams just end up poorly no matter what they do. no matter how hard they try they still run in place. the clips were always that way,,,minnie too, and philly has placed themselves in a position where everyone says "what are they doing anyway?". portland is another kind of treadmill team. a franchise wrought with bad luck and injuries. most of the time competitive but never really in the ultimate mix at the top - a perennial 3rd/4th place decent type team, and just when they have their two superstars,,,they lose one. they could have roy, aldridge, and lillard, but alas,,,,,

just a cursory observation, GENERALLY,, but why do the top franchises always manage to find their way back to the top, the bad stay bad, and the vast majority continually stay mediocre. is it management, is it spending money, it's not big market cuz nyk has proven that i think many many teams treadmill.

[SF_Warriors]

The #3 pick in two consecutive drafts while developing a promising prospect like Noel is a huge win in my book.

The ability to absorb contracts to reach the cap floor is also an underrated part of their strategy. Look at what they got from the kings. They gave up zero assets other than some cap space.

So far, it has been two drafts since the tanking began. I do not consider the mcw/noel draft as a tank year, more like a "treadmill" year.

Next draft, looks like two more lotto picks, and hopfully a healthy embiid for the season.
Noel is already a double double player and a mean rim protector.

Not sure about the list of total picks/tpes that sixers have next season, can someone post?

Personally, I would give Hinkie two more drafts and seasons and see where the team is at.

If by end of year 4 season of tanking the team is not in the playoff picture, I would call the strategy a huge failure.

But so far, other than the Embiid snag, I cant see how anyone can call it a failure. It just does not look good right now due to the injury.

It may seem like they are rolling the dice, but if i was an owner and you told me that during the first two years of rebuilding I would get the #3 pick in two consecutive drafts and in addition to that also having a 21 year old double double machine averaging 2blocks/2steals per game, I would be happy.

The Sixers have the following picks/assets:

- Jahlil Okafor
- Nerlens Noel
- Joel Embiid (if healthy)
- The Rights to Dario Saric (2016 or 2017 stateside arrival)
- Sixers 2016 1st (right to swap with Kings 1st unprotected)
- Lakers 2016 1st (top 3 protected until 2018 when it becomes unprotected)
- Miami 2016 1st (top 10 protected, then unprotected 2017)
- OKC 2016 1st (top 15 protected)
- Sixers 2017 1st (right to swap 1st with Kings unprotected)
- Sixers 2018 1st
- Kings 2018 1st (top 10 protected, then unprotected 2019)
- numerous second rounders
- young talent with upside and team friendly contracts (Covington, etc)
- and tens of millions of dollars in cap space.

cool. thank you.
Looks like they are going to get LA's, MIA's and OKC's picks next draft. Don't see them swapping picks with the kings but nice option to have considering they gave up nothing for that option.

I am rooting for the lakers to miss the playoffs but also not get a top 3 pick hope you guys get that one!!
I dont hate the lakers but they are a western conf and pacific div opponent

[bwgood77]

If Philly is really willing to do this for five, six, or seven seasons, it almost cannot fail. It will either land a superstar or draft so many good players that they will gather a solid NBA team.

This part I disagree with. You can build a solid NBA team in much less than 5 years, if that's what the Sixers end up with then the whole thing was a failure.

The goal is not to have a solid team. The goal is to have a TITLE CONTENDING TEAM.

Sure that is the ultimate goal, and everyone wants it, but there are a ton of fans, especially casual ones, who watch their local team to be entertained, and they just want to have a team that plays hard and gives them a good game to watch, and perhaps plays a great style. MANY Suns fans LOVED the KJ days, watching those teams from 88 to 95, even though there were heartbreaking series to the Blazers, Bulls and Rockets.

Same with the 2005-2010 Suns days. The Suns picked up TONS of new fans with the Barkley years and the Nash years, so obviously those new fans just loved how entertaining the Suns were to watch.

For many, it's not just championship or bust. It's also for entertainment.

[bwgood77]

Exactly, look, every fan has a right to defend their teams and enjoy watching their hometown team hit the court, but I honestly feel bad for Phoenix fans. They were in a great spot to continue building a good team through the draft. Now they've hit that spot where they are good enough to contend for a playoff spot but miles away from contending. You could praise the Suns FO for signing a guy liek Chandler to help make their team better, but honestly I'd ridicule them, because adding Chandler does nothing to make them a contender and only worstens their future draft position. I don't necessarily blame the Suns FO because this is just how the NBA works.

Many Suns fans think the Suns are tread milling. The approach the team takes is largely dependent on the owners mandate. About Tyson Chandler, the young Suns had a ton of immaturity last year and no leadership. Tyson Chandler is largely there to be an example, a leader, mentor, etc, which young guys need in order to grow and learn the nuances of the game.

[bwgood77]

Yup ...good read ....just like I've been saying for the past year ...everyone praised the Suns for "almost getting there" a few seasons ago and now ..a blown draft pick (lakers pick) and two strike outs in a Free Agency later as well as salary dumping young talent ..it has become clear that their team is going no where fast ....


Give Me


OK4
Saric
Noel
5 First round picks (two of which will be top 5)


Over whatever hell PHX thinks their doing ....looks to me that team is on the path of treadmillville

There are a ton of teams on the treadmill though. The Bulls and Clippers are on the second round treadmill with some aging players as some of their key pieces, you have others on the first round treadmill, etc.

At least for the Suns, all of their key players except for two have been in the league five years or less and are still improving. They are in a tough position, as the best teams in the west are REALLY good, and the worst teams in the west have some great young assets. Denver and LAL might be in trouble unless Mudiay and Russell/Randle become superstuds though.

But most of the times Phx broke out it came out of nowhere. They once traded all star Larry Nance for a rookie pg and signed journeyman Tom Chambers and went from 28 to 55 wins. They once traded one of their best players for cap space, signed Nash because Cuban thought he was too injury prone and went from 29 to 62 wins. Two years ago they were projected to win 17 and won 48. The Suns kind of have a history of coming out of nowhere, so nothing would shock me. They have a pretty solid roster with a lot of depth and most of the key pieces are young.

You simply never know which approach is going to work out best.

[KramerDSP]

cool. thank you.
Looks like they are going to get LA's, MIA's and OKC's picks next draft. Don't see them swapping picks with the kings but nice option to have considering they gave up nothing for that option.

I am rooting for the lakers to miss the playoffs but also not get a top 3 pick hope you guys get that one!!
I dont hate the lakers but they are a western conf and pacific div opponent

I doubt the swap will happen but we did get the Kings ping pong balls for the next two draft lotteries. There's a very small chance, but there is potential for the Sixers Kings trade to be one of the most lopsided in NBA history.

The best case of this trade is: Mitrovic and Gudaitis and $20 million in cap relief for:
-Stauskas
-Kings implode and win lottery. Philadelphia swaps and takes Ben Simmons with the first overall pick.
-Kings are terrible in 2017 and win lottery. A rising Philadelphia team loaded with Okafor/Noel/Embiid/Saric/two top-ten 2016 lottery picks swaps with the Kings and select Joshua Jackson with the first overall pick.
- 2018 top ten protected pick from Kings goes to Philly and if they keep it, we have a 2019 unprotected pick in the draft the year after Boogie's contract ends.

Highly unlikely but the potential is absolutely there.

[thamadkant]

I think other execs don't like what Philly is doing because they like to pull the wool over their fans eyes by makign their teams perennial 8-5 seeds, with no hope to win anything except some extra revenue in the playoffs. Good luck Phoenix Sun execs & fans, you have no shot to be a contender down the line because you rushed the process and now have little means to finding a superstar.

lol
By the time 76ers are looking "OK", by getting close to 35 wins... Okafor, Noels might not want to stick around...
Thats when teams like the Suns, who are managing their salary cap space tightly can try to persuade those types of players to jump... dont even mention teams like Knicks, Lakers, Spurs etc.


Suns have VERY tradable contracts.... even Chandler will be tradable once the salary cap increases.
Bledsoe 26 years old, Knight 24 years old, Morris 25 years old... all getting LESS than DeMarr Carrol... THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE.

[Dominator83]

I love what the Lakers are quietly doing. They have a young core of russell/Clarkson/Randle Which has insane potential IMO and built that in 1 years time and didn't tank nearly as hard as Philly. They hopped on the tank after the Kobe injuries, but I don't believe that they went into the last 2 seasons or this upcoming one, thinking "must suck hard"

They still will have plenty of cap coming and will be much more attractive if that core shows blossom. If I was a GM, I take that over sixers/suns anyday

[KingOfTheCourt]

The most miraculous thing that Heinke has done isn't that he convinced the owner to follow his plan, but that he's completely brainwashed the fans.... It's actually incredible how he's been able to accomplish that, and with that comes consistent job security! I bet every GM wishes they could accomplish what Heinke has with their teams stakeholders.

[bwgood77]

The most miraculous thing that Heinke has done isn't that he convinced the owner to follow his plan, but that he's completely brainwashed the fans.... It's actually incredible how he's been able to accomplish that, and with that comes consistent job security! I bet every GM wishes they could accomplish what Heinke has with their teams stakeholders.

Well the fans here. I'd like to see a poll on a major non Sixers philly website or look at the attendance or tv ratings.

[JDizzel3000]

Who is this young talent we dumped? Marcus Morris?

Now I'm no fan of the Suns and I obviously don't have the inside info that their fans may have on their players but looking at Marcus' age his advanced stats and his small cap hit ...it seems as though you gave up something of value for absolutely nothing out of desperation ...which is generally not consistent with good decision making in NBA terms

lol lol lol lol

Marcus Morris was terrible. Absolutely terrible for ball movement, detrimental for the locker room, bad influence on his brother, and he also beat the **** out of a guy and might go to prison

Hey ... If You Say So

[CoreyGallagher]

I love what the Lakers are quietly doing. They have a young core of russell/Clarkson/Randle Which has insane potential IMO and built that in 1 years time and didn't tank nearly as hard as Philly. They hopped on the tank after the Kobe injuries, but I don't believe that they went into the last 2 seasons or this upcoming one, thinking "must suck hard"

They still will have plenty of cap coming and will be much more attractive if that core shows blossom. If I was a GM, I take that over sixers/suns anyday

Since Hinkie was hired Sixers have a 22.5% winning percentage, Lakers have 28.0% winning percentage.

[JDizzel3000]

Yup ...good read ....just like I've been saying for the past year ...everyone praised the Suns for "almost getting there" a few seasons ago and now ..a blown draft pick (lakers pick) and two strike outs in a Free Agency later as well as salary dumping young talent ..it has become clear that their team is going no where fast ....


Give Me


OK4
Saric
Noel
5 First round picks (two of which will be top 5)


Over whatever hell PHX thinks their doing ....looks to me that team is on the path of treadmillville

There are a ton of teams on the treadmill though. The Bulls and Clippers are on the second round treadmill with some aging players as some of their key pieces, you have others on the first round treadmill, etc.

At least for the Suns, all of their key players except for two have been in the league five years or less and are still improving. They are in a tough position, as the best teams in the west are REALLY good, and the worst teams in the west have some great young assets. Denver and LAL might be in trouble unless Mudiay and Russell/Randle become superstuds though.

But most of the times Phx broke out it came out of nowhere. They once traded all star Larry Nance for a rookie pg and signed journeyman Tom Chambers and went from 28 to 55 wins. They once traded one of their best players for cap space, signed Nash because Cuban thought he was too injury prone and went from 29 to 62 wins. Two years ago they were projected to win 17 and won 48. The Suns kind of have a history of coming out of nowhere, so nothing would shock me. They have a pretty solid roster with a lot of depth and most of the key pieces are young.

You simply never know which approach is going to work out best.

The bulls were in the ECF and contenders before DROSE got hurt and blew his knee out ... it wasn't a choice for the team to fall off the map ...they couldn't do too much with his contract... i wouldn't call us a treadmill team because some of the circumstances were out of the teams control ... but even with that said i'll take

Jimmy Butler
Mirotic
Portis
Mcdermott
Snell

Sac 1st round pick & Bulls 1st round pick


over what the suns have moving forward ... even if you wanted to call the bulls a treadmill team i'd take that youth core along with the picks over what the suns have


The Clippers are definitely not a treadmill team LOLZ ..... the clippers have been a perennial western conference contender with two all pro players in their core .... they've lost some tough series but it certainly hasn't been to the point were they have no shot at beating any of the elite teams in their conference ..... a treadmill team has no shot to contend ... the clippers definitely do not fit that criteria


And if your still clinging onto things that happened 20years ago as your blueprint for future success all i can say is god bless you ..