Game 30: Phoenix Suns (12-17) @ Utah Jazz (11-14)

[Revived]

Gambo said on his show recently that Markieff's benching came directly from Sarver. He felt that Markieff was not playing with passion and effort and told Hornacek to stop playing him. That is not my opinion, that is what Gambo said, and I believe his source is actually Sarver.

I heard this as well which is why I attributed Kieff's benching more so to Sarver than Hornacek.

[KLEON]

Why don't the Suns play a more up-tempo style like they did against the Mavs in the 4th quarter last week?

They're tied for 2nd in pace already, using 101.6 possessions per game.
1st is Golden State, using less than 1 more possession a game, at 102.3

This team can't really play any faster than it's already playing.

Whatever Hornacek's faults are, you can't say he doesn't have the team playing "up-tempo".

It looked like they were playing faster in the 4th against the Mavs

[KLEON]

I wonder how you guys would react if the Suns lose to the Sixers on Friday.

[Kyler Murray]

It's already the time of the season where half the forum gives up on the team huh?

Player Age G GS MP
1 Brandon Knight 24 30 29 35.5
2 Eric Bledsoe 26 29 29 34.9
3 P.J. Tucker 30 30 29 26.5
4 Markieff Morris 26 21 16 24
5 Tyson Chandler 33 21 19 23
6 T.J. Warren 22 29 1 22
7 Jon Leuer 26 30 14 20.5
8 Alex Len 22 30 11 19.1
9 Mirza Teletovic 30 30 0 17.8
10 Devin Booker 19 25 2 14.1

So if you exclude Markieff who's as good as gone, and Tyson who will be probably shipped to a contender, the average age of the rest 8 players that play meaningful time is 24. All we need is a revamped frontcourt and some patience.

[Revived]

RIP Jon Leuer

[tweet]https://twitter.com/MikeSGallagher/status/679153829364031488[/tweet]

[Saberestar]

I wonder how you guys would react if the Suns lose to the Sixers on Friday.

It wouldn't be a surprise. Not a big deal at all.

A lot of bad things going on...this is getting worse and worse with every game but well... nobody wants to take responsibility for this mess.

Basketball is all about wins and loses, Hornacek has lost this team already.

[Matt1979]

RIP Jon Leuer

[tweet]https://twitter.com/MikeSGallagher/status/679153829364031488[/tweet]

RIP? He merely moved out the way. Lol

[nevetsov]

Disappointing game. Props to Horny for finally changing the starting lineup, but throwing 2 young guys into the fire in the same game? Yikes. Can't say we didn't see that one coming. Bled had absolutely no help at all.

Through hell or high water, we need to start BK at SG all season, purely so that by season's end, we have an established 20/5/4 guy on a $13m per deal, who will no doubt have value all around the league. That's a massive asset IMO. Booker will have a year coming of the bench and by next year may be comfortable enough to start.

The biggest slight I have over the past few games is Horny taking Len out of the starting lineup when he was absolutely feasting. For a young kid who rides high on confidence and playing well, this benching is just foolish. Chandler was brought in for 3 reasons:

1) To assist in an Aldridge signing (fail).
2) To provide team leadership (can be done off the bench, in the locker room etc.)
3) To assist in Len's development and turn him into a legit starting C.

In my mind, 3) has/ had already happened, Len was balling and playing like a very capable starting C. So WHY bench him in favour of a one-dimensional role player, who's job is to hand over the starting gig at some point anyway?

Len would have given the offensively anaemic starting lineup another angle at least, so that Warren and Book wouldn't have been throttled on D. No perimeter D is going to help on Leuer/ Chandler posting up. As we've seen, Bled has already built some good chemistry with Len over the last few games. If they are the future, why not built on it?? Why not continue to start Len until he cools off at least?

Chandler and his screens off the bench would actually suit Knight/ Teletovic bench mob as they would at least have a decent screen to run off.

[nevetsov]

Oh and one last thing.. running a lineup 12 deep in the first 20 minutes of the game? Just... insane.

[batsmasher]

Oh and one last thing.. running a lineup 12 deep in the first 20 minutes of the game? Just... insane.

Horny doing a roll call to see if anyone was interested in playing basketball. Not many takers.

[Saberestar]

“Our communication is horrible,” Tucker said. “We give up so many points just from not talking, not fulfilling our schemes that we come up with for games. That’s a big part of it.”

Price said it is not for lack of coachspeak. Hornacek and his staff pound the message daily, only to see any good things happen in spurts be overwhelmed by floods of mistakes.

“This isn’t anything that’s new,” Price said. “Coach talks about this and drills it in us every day. We just have to do it.  I feel so bad because Coach is probably pulling his hair out. The staff is working really hard trying to figure it out.

“It’s little, different things each game. The promising thing is you look at the standings and it’s so crazy. We have all these games that don’t go our way or we don’t show up to play and you look at the standings and, if we just get on a streak, we’re the fifth seed.“

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2015/12/22/heavy-slate-only-latest-issue-woeful-phoenix-suns/77772454/

[bwgood77]

Oh and one last thing.. running a lineup 12 deep in the first 20 minutes of the game? Just... insane.

Horny doing a roll call to see if anyone was interested in playing basketball. Not many takers.

[bwgood77]

“Our communication is horrible,” Tucker said. “We give up so many points just from not talking, not fulfilling our schemes that we come up with for games. That’s a big part of it.”

Price said it is not for lack of coachspeak. Hornacek and his staff pound the message daily, only to see any good things happen in spurts be overwhelmed by floods of mistakes.

“This isn’t anything that’s new,” Price said. “Coach talks about this and drills it in us every day. We just have to do it.  I feel so bad because Coach is probably pulling his hair out. The staff is working really hard trying to figure it out.

“It’s little, different things each game. The promising thing is you look at the standings and it’s so crazy. We have all these games that don’t go our way or we don’t show up to play and you look at the standings and, if we just get on a streak, we’re the fifth seed.“

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2015/12/22/heavy-slate-only-latest-issue-woeful-phoenix-suns/77772454/

That's good to know.

[Matt1979]

99% of a coaches job is communication. If they can't get their message across and make sure they players follow it it's their problem.

Whether you like it or not these players needs Thibs. They've gotten away with coasting for too long and Jeff is too nice.

[bwgood77]

99% of a coaches job is communication. If they can't get their message across and make sure they players follow it it's their problem.

Whether you like it or not these players needs Thibs. They've gotten away with coasting for too long and Jeff is too nice.

That's not entirely clear. From what I can tell he is a fairly good communicator. I have worked with people that you can tell them the same thing repeatedly that they need to do and they just are not good listeners or just forget when stressed or whatever the case may be. Being mean doesn't make you a better communicator imo.

But again, we have so many moving parts all the time, that chemistry is always going to be tough to build instantly.

[NavLDO]

99% of a coaches job is communication. If they can't get their message across and make sure they players follow it it's their problem.

Whether you like it or not these players needs Thibs. They've gotten away with coasting for too long and Jeff is too nice.

That's not entirely clear. From what I can tell he is a fairly good communicator. I have worked with people that you can tell them the same thing repeatedly that they need to do and they just are not good listeners or just forget when stressed or whatever the case may be. Being mean doesn't make you a better communicator imo.

But again, we have so many moving parts all the time, that chemistry is always going to be tough to build instantly.

Well, that's great that Horny's COMMUNICATING the right aspects, but unfortunately, he's not MOTIVATING the team to actually act/play based upon what he's coaching, and if he's failing in this area, then he's unfortunately, failing as a coach.

If you or others want to 'pin' our problems on the players, well, yes, you are correct if the 'teacher', in this case the coach, is providing the correct instruction, and the 'students', in this case, the players, are not responding appropriately by not effectively implementing the coach's instruction on the court, then the worst offenders need to be sat, or in extreme cases traded...OR, the coach needs to be changed to one that might be able to properly motivate the players to play how they are instructed to.

Either way, what's happening now is unacceptable. And if Horny is to be the 'scapegoat', then fine, but good luck in expecting any great miracle changes to happen unless about 3-4 players are also replaced. I personally, would get rid of these non-compliant players first and give Horny a chance to turn it around; and if not replacing Horny turns out to be the wrong choice, then replace Horny.

Sounds easy, right? Well, no, I get that it's not that easy, but for goodness sakes, do SOMETHING!

[JMac1]

99% of a coaches job is communication. If they can't get their message across and make sure they players follow it it's their problem.

Whether you like it or not these players needs Thibs. They've gotten away with coasting for too long and Jeff is too nice.

That's not entirely clear. From what I can tell he is a fairly good communicator. I have worked with people that you can tell them the same thing repeatedly that they need to do and they just are not good listeners or just forget when stressed or whatever the case may be. Being mean doesn't make you a better communicator imo.

But again, we have so many moving parts all the time, that chemistry is always going to be tough to build instantly.

Well, that's great that Horny's COMMUNICATING the right aspects, but unfortunately, he's not MOTIVATING the team to actually act/play based upon what he's coaching, and if he's failing in this area, then he's unfortunately, failing as a coach.

If you or others want to 'pin' our problems on the players, well, yes, you are correct if the 'teacher', in this case the coach, is providing the correct instruction, and the 'students', in this case, the players, are not responding appropriately by not effectively implementing the coach's instruction on the court, then the worst offenders need to be sat, or in extreme cases traded...OR, the coach needs to be changed to one that might be able to properly motivate the players to play how they are instructed to.

Either way, what's happening now is unacceptable. And if Horny is to be the 'scapegoat', then fine, but good luck in expecting any great miracle changes to happen unless about 3-4 players are also replaced. I personally, would get rid of these non-compliant players first and give Horny a chance to turn it around; and if not replacing Horny turns out to be the wrong choice, then replace Horny.

Sounds easy, right? Well, no, I get that it's not that easy, but for goodness sakes, do SOMETHING!

Agree with Matt and Nav..... No excuses. It is always the coaches fault. I am a coach and a teacher. I can't tell my AD and principal "well I tell them over and over, they just don't listen, so please give me players and students that listen." No, they will say you have to get this population of students and players to listen to you, if not, you are fired; or I could go to a school were the population listens no matter what......those are called gravy train schools and or players.

No excuses for Horny, he is teribble.

[bwgood77]

If you or others want to 'pin' our problems on the players, well, yes, you are correct if the 'teacher', in this case the coach, is providing the correct instruction, and the 'students', in this case, the players, are not responding appropriately by not effectively implementing the coach's instruction on the court, then the worst offenders need to be sat, or in extreme cases traded...OR, the coach needs to be changed to one that might be able to properly motivate the players to play how they are instructed to.

Either way, what's happening now is unacceptable. And if Horny is to be the 'scapegoat', then fine, but good luck in expecting any great miracle changes to happen unless about 3-4 players are also replaced. I personally, would get rid of these non-compliant players first and give Horny a chance to turn it around; and if not replacing Horny turns out to be the wrong choice, then replace Horny.

Sounds easy, right? Well, no, I get that it's not that easy, but for goodness sakes, do SOMETHING!

I agree with what you say but it's tough, when probably the two worst offenders of guys not on the table are Bledsoe and Knight. It's pretty evident in what the coaches, Price, etc say, that it's them that fail to do the right thing, do the play called, or when the play breaks down, which seems often, adapt smartly and quickly.

So if it's them, it is kind of tough to trade them for several reasons. First, the league is loaded with PGs. Secondly, McD would look stupid to trade Knight after giving up what he did for him, and it could make it tougher to sign free agents if him OR Bledsoe were traded. I don't know if sitting them helps a ton.

I am skeptical on them becoming much smarter with time, but that seems to be the thing I am hoping for because I don't think either will be traded. Part of me wants to say that only one should be on the court at a time or at least they should never both sit at the same time, but then, on the other hand, Knight is better suited as a SG.

I mean, maybe another coach can suddenly make them a lot smarter, but I certainly wouldn't bet money on that. But, a guy like Carlisle seems to do that, for example, Felton and Jameer Nelson played in Dallas last year under him and were not all that good. But after a year under him, they both are playing well this year, Felton still in Dallas and Nelson in Denver. If we do a trade I wouldn't mind getting Jameer Nelson in, just as a mentor for the guards, and perhaps to play sometimes if/when one gets benched due to stupid play.

But that is also why I was looking at Melvin Hunt, asst coach to Carlisle and also has worked on player development and been under some other good coaches like Karl.

Karl is actually another good example of how hard it is to coach stupid players. He has been to the ECF with Milwaukee, the NBA finals with Seattle, took Denver to a 3 seed five or so years ago which was very surprising. But now with Sacramento, with a combo of young and dumb players, he is having a tough time getting them past even 500, as have all coaches with those players, even though, on paper they have a lot of raw talent.

However, they may get smarter over time, regardless of who is coach, but if this happens I think Hornacek is a good coach to have. I'd just REALLY hate to gamble on another coach who ends up being worse.

[kennydorglas]

99% of a coaches job is communication. If they can't get their message across and make sure they players follow it it's their problem.

Whether you like it or not these players needs Thibs. They've gotten away with coasting for too long and Jeff is too nice.

Yeah, Chicago is already missing Thibs... especially Butler who is calling Hoiberg out pretty much in every post-game interview.

[Revived]

That's not entirely clear. From what I can tell he is a fairly good communicator. I have worked with people that you can tell them the same thing repeatedly that they need to do and they just are not good listeners or just forget when stressed or whatever the case may be. Being mean doesn't make you a better communicator imo.

But again, we have so many moving parts all the time, that chemistry is always going to be tough to build instantly.

Well, that's great that Horny's COMMUNICATING the right aspects, but unfortunately, he's not MOTIVATING the team to actually act/play based upon what he's coaching, and if he's failing in this area, then he's unfortunately, failing as a coach.

If you or others want to 'pin' our problems on the players, well, yes, you are correct if the 'teacher', in this case the coach, is providing the correct instruction, and the 'students', in this case, the players, are not responding appropriately by not effectively implementing the coach's instruction on the court, then the worst offenders need to be sat, or in extreme cases traded...OR, the coach needs to be changed to one that might be able to properly motivate the players to play how they are instructed to.

Either way, what's happening now is unacceptable. And if Horny is to be the 'scapegoat', then fine, but good luck in expecting any great miracle changes to happen unless about 3-4 players are also replaced. I personally, would get rid of these non-compliant players first and give Horny a chance to turn it around; and if not replacing Horny turns out to be the wrong choice, then replace Horny.

Sounds easy, right? Well, no, I get that it's not that easy, but for goodness sakes, do SOMETHING!

Agree with Matt and Nav..... No excuses. It is always the coaches fault. I am a coach and a teacher. I can't tell my AD and principal "well I tell them over and over, they just don't listen, so please give me players and students that listen." No, they will say you have to get this population of students and players to listen to you, if not, you are fired; or I could go to a school were the population listens no matter what......those are called gravy train schools and or players.

No excuses for Horny, he is teribble.

That's actually a really good example.