'15-16 RealGM POY & Other Awards Voting Thread

[ronnymac2]

(That's my way of saying that if he signs with Boston -- and I think he'll go 1+1 in OKC -- that he can shake the NBA landscape. Seriously, go sign with Boston.)

Oh no. It's like being at the beach and talking to somebody and seeing a giant wave begin to emerge behind the other person.

Spoiler:

He signed with GSW. Boom.

[mikejames23]

POY: Top 5 list
OPOY, DPOY, ROY, MIP, 6MOY, COY, EOY: Top 3 list

POY:
1. LeBron James
2. Steph Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Chris Paul
5. Russell Westbrook

OPOY:

1. Steph Curry
2. Kevin Durant
3. LeBron James

DPOY:

1. Draymond Green
2. Kawhi Leonard
3. Rudy Gobert

MIP

1. CJ McCollum
2. Steven Adams
3. Kemba Walker

ROY

1. Karl Anthony-Towns
2. Nikola Jokic
3. Kristaps Porzingis

6MOY

1. Andre Igoudala
2. Jeremy Lin
3. Enes Kanter

COTY
1. Brad Stevens
2. Terry Stotts
3. Steve Clifford

EOTY:
1. RC Buford
2. Rich Cho
3. Jeff Bower

Note: Will explain my voting in the discussion thread a bit later (Or is this where the discussion takes place now?).

Okay, my thoughts on this:

After the finals, LeBron simply was the best player. By the way, I thought this way in 2015 as well. I don’t feel Curry will be able to compete with this because he simply doesn’t have those physical tools. The only way I can see Curry actually being better than LeBron in the playoffs is if he peaks at the correct time - ala 01 Lakers or 14 Spurs. So that’s for Kerr, to ensure this kid is out of this world in May and June as opposed to December or January. Until then, I can’t place Curry over LeBron because 2 seasons of playoff runs only reaffirm my belief that LeBron is #1 at the highest level of play. What can this man not do?

So that was my clear #1 and 2. I cannot take Curry below 2, as a GOAT regular season is a GOAT regular season. Curry played 18 playoff games which is a pretty good sample size, but even if I said the playoffs are more important than the RS, I had him #1 in the RS untouchable.

Curry also had a solid WC run. The last 3 games of clearly outplaying GOATbrook in addition to that Blazers “I am back” game proves this. He is Top 2 uncontested, as LeBron is #1. I am not knocking him below this for missed games, as that is just bad luck and poor pacing by Kerr. My main issue with him is overconfidence. Watching some of the playbacks of the finals, Curry clearly felt it was okay to pull off some of the flashy passes/cute plays on the Cavs, which was somewhat immature. You cannot be at this level and do that. I have issues overall with his decision making in the finals, and that is why I am hesitant to place him #1. It’s not just talent that wins you every title, even if you had a GOAT RS run.

Regardless, I have no issue with placing Curry at #1 if someone wanted to do that. Regardless of how the year ended, it’s easy to forget everything he did across the entire season, and how hopeless everyone thought it was to go up against the Splash brothers, how NBA 2k Cheese he was, etc. etc. There is no one in recent memory that has inspired more hopelessness in a defensive scheme than Steph Curry.

Now. Where this really gets interesting is 3-6. It’s as I have said, I had a clear Top 6 this season, and not a Top 5. However, one of them needed to go.

Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook:

Durant gave me something additional this year which I wasn’t super aware of before - defensive anchoring ability. He always had long arms and good instincts to be a plus defender, but this year it was on another level. Combine this with what I feel is the 2nd best offensive player in the league, and giving him the #3 spot felt natural. His efficiency against the Spurs defense this year was highly impressive and at times it felt like I might’ve been watching the best O in the league.


Russell Westbrook. I ended up ignoring his shooting %’s towards the end, simply because his impact was much larger than this, and he meant more to OKC than Durant did this season. I actually had him at #2 until LeBron decided to unleash his GOAT self. The biggest issue I still have is him not being able to reign himself in, at times. However, if the defense doesn’t have the tools to do something against his athleticism, the game will get out of hand really, really, fast, and so this secures his spot as a Top 5 player. It is very easy to slip up even a little bit and Russell will make everyone pay. Ridiculous. Absurd. Terrifying. All these come to mind when I think of him.

I ended up using some advanced metrics as well. For his overall offensive impact Russell Westbrook is ranked #2 on offense by ESPN’s +/-. This actually doesn’t feel inaccurate, as I can make a case that Westbrook is the best player on OKC. However, I have a preference for players that play more in control as this is more reliable and under the right circumstances leads me to more wins, such as Kevin Durant and the guy coming up next, Chris Paul.

Chris Paul:

So Chris Paul has always been the perfect PG every since 2008 or so. Scoring, efficiency, passing, control, clutch, everything.

This year he went entirely unnoticed because of Kobe and GSW chasing 73.

From when Blake Griffin went down in the RS, however, in the December - March Span, the Clippers were running an O-Rating matching Golden State’s. I would let that sink in for a moment.

here’s another clip with the season winding down -

That’s a swing of nearly 16 points per 100 possessions, which is the largest on-court versus off-court impact of any player in the NBA over that span. The players with the next-biggest impact? Draymond Green (difference of plus-12.6 points per 100 possessions) and Stephen Curry(difference of plus-11.9 points per 100 possessions). By that measure, Paul has been the most important offensive player in the NBA since Griffin has been out.

Paul/No Paul = the difference between the best and one of the worst in the league. In all senses, he’s an MVP candidate who had a terrific RS.

ESPN’s RPM ranks him at #1 amongst PG’s for defense this year, as well. That’s him ahead of guys with great defensive reps like Ricky Rubio or Kyle Lowry. He’s in fact on par with Tony Allen this year by that rating.

On par with Tony Allen.

Need I really go on? This man IS the premier Point Guard in the NBA, and had he not gone down in the first round, the playoffs would have been mighty interesting to watch. While I don’t see the Clips getting past GSW, we would’ve had a great 2nd round on our hands.

The issue for Paul, unfortunately, is that the Clips aren’t as good as those above them. They’re slightly worse than the true elites, and so the perception is that somehow he would be right outside of the Top 5, whereas he has a strong case to go as high as #3.

Isn’t this also impressive longevity? I haven’t tried an all time list yet, but 08-16 is a long span of time.

The guy I left out:

Kawhi Leonard

Man, this was tough. At the end of the day, I feel he’s only very slightly worse than Westbrook. There is nothing wrong with Kawhi, but he still has to finish and complete his game on the offensive end to become a Top 5 lock. It might be added playmaking, etc. With Pop coaching him, I am interested in watching his evolution. I don’t believe he needs to “score at a higher volume” like many have implied. Because, really, why? What purpose would that serve? Added offensive responsibility and not the same defender as he used to be? This always happens to every star that picks up his offense, and I imagine Kawhi will be no different on this end. I would like to see him maintain his defense as he polishes and completes his offensive game.

The rest, that is some talk on my other picks:

Rudy Gobert:

This is a guy to watch.

Posted sometime in March:

Last season, when the Utah Jazz traded Enes Kanter at the trade deadline and elevated Rudy Gobert to a starting role, Gobert helped transform a Utah defense that ranked 27th in efficiency at the All-Star break to the league's best defense after the break.

Quality bigman, with defensive anchoring capacity that’s potentially #1 in the league. He’s on a middling team like the Utah Jazz, and unfortunately won’t get much attention here. Still, if the right team gets his hands on him, or the Jazz trade for an offensive star, he’ll suddenly be a DPOY candidate - because he plays on that level.


Jeremy Lin:

His career in the spotlight may be done, as he picked the Nets this offseason, and BRK seems to be going nowhere. However, he had a very good year off the bench.

On one end he feels like an average Point Guard, and on the other he’s a great X Factor, the best in the league. He can, on any given night, come out and torch a defense - that too not through scoring, but through running effective 5 man units. This is an important ability come playoff time, and why the Hornets took the Heat to 7. The Hornets lineups with Lamb/Kaminsky were amongst the best off the bench in the league, from my survey on 82games.com. He also picked up his game at just the right time for them to secure a playoff spot. This is a very good sign - as he’s proven himself more than capable for playing at the higher levels.

Would’ve given him the 6th Man nod, but Andre Igouadala is basically an all star or at least a high quality starter coming off the bench, and Lin isn’t quite on that level.

Brad Stevens:

My pick for COY. I have said before there is no real way or rating coaches, as we don’t really have coach stats. However, what I saw Brad Stevens do - is create the proper culture to attract stars. This is the most important facet of team building, at the end of the day. He’s developing a guy like Marcus Smart and somehow figuring out ways to stay competitive - rebuilding and still making the playoffs. They have built a scary defensive team in Boston, with Horford, Bradley, Johnson, etc. I am seriously interested in seeing where he takes this. Frankly, I would’ve liked to see KD sign here. It would’ve been both a good challenge for KD and Boston would’ve turned into a behemoth overnight.

Still, good luck to KD in GSW. He should get his chip in ‘17 barring injuries.

[Doctor MJ]

KD has demonstrated that he can be part of an elite defensive team and could be a ridiculous 4-man in certain lineups. He is better in situational isolation (where isolation tends to sustain value) and at providing synergistic, off-ball value. I've never liked the criticisms of Westbrook because his ball-dominance helps get KD looks -- you don't want Durant dominating the ball all the time. I believe Durant has become underrated in the basketball zeitgeist and is close to being this generation's lite version of the KG narrative. (That's my way of saying that if he signs with Boston -- and I think he'll go 1+1 in OKC -- that he can shake the NBA landscape. Seriously, go sign with Boston.)

Chiming in here after Durant signed with GS:

Were I Durant I expect that I'd have either stayed in OKC or gone to Boston. Staying in OKC would have been about Westbrook - will I be more satisfied with my end career sticking with Westbrook because of his great talent despite the poor fit that tends to diminish me a bit? Going somewhere else, I'd be looking to go to the East to a team not seen as a contender who I think I could be the clear alpha leading them to major contention. Additionally while I think Ainge relies too heavily on acquiring minor assets and just assuming all that will work out, I as Durant know that if I go there, Ainge will indeed be able to use those assets to build around me.

Oh well...

[Doctor MJ]

Hey folks, fyi planning to tally up the votes next Saturday.

[KD35Brah]

I don't see how people can still see Kawhi as a better defender than Green....

Care to elaborate?

To clear confusion, i typed "defender" in the post you replyed to but I was referring to them as overall defensive players. i hope that makes sense.

Since Green's rise to dominance(2015) i never viewed Kawhi as a better defender. Green just carries a much bigger defensive load as a 4/5 while having arguably better defensive stats than Kawhi. Guarding 4s, rotating for the defense, successfully guarding the 1-5 when siwtched onto any of them, along with being a legit defensive anchor when he is moved to the 5 spot.

A lot of people's argument for Kawhi's defense this season had a lot to do with the Spurs being the best defense in the league, Green was a big reason why the Warriors were the best defense in 2015 and he still wasn't universally considered as the better defensive player.

Kawhi has never actually been put into the position Green has(full time 4, small ball 5) to showcase these abilities, so it's hard to see if he can actually do it at a comparable or higher level.

I think Green is a better offensive player as well, but that's another discussion.

[Colbinii]

OPOY, DPOY, ROY, MIP, 6MOY, COY, EOY: Top 3 list

Player of the Year

1. LeBron "The King" James

LeBron put up a top 5 regular season that consisted of him coasting more than a manual car. His post-season was one of his top 4 or 5 ever, and his Finals performance was another one for the ages. He proved throughout these players, and especially the NBA Finals, that he is the best player in the NBA. Not only was he the best player in the NBA this season, but he also had the best season out of any player.

2. Stephen Curry

If he didn't have a top 5 player of all-time as a rival, this kid would have been the player of the year. His regular season was as good as it gets from the guard position, but he was exploited in the post-season by lacking playmaking and being a defensive mismatch.

3. Kevin Durant

KD35 was a monster this season, and although his stat line wasn't the triple double montage like Westbrook's, I feel like his game, especially come post-season, was only behind that of Curry and LeBron. Durant showed that he was an all-defensive level player against the Warriors.

4. Russell Westbrook

Westbrook was the driving force offensively behind a team that was up 3-1 to a 73 win team. His inconsistent offense and gambles on defense hold him back from being higher.

5. Chris Paul

CP3 has been one of the most underrated players the NBA has seen in the last couple of decades. He is consistently leading teams with injuries or lack of depth to the post-season while consistently looking like the best player in all of his series.

Honorable Mentions: Kawhi Leonard, Paul George

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Steph Curry
2. Chris Paul
3. LeBron James

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Draymond Green
2. Kawhi Leonard
3. LeBron James

Most Improved Player
1. Ricky Rubio
2. Kemba Walker
3. Jae Crowder

Rookie of the Year

1. Karl Anthony-Towns
2. Kristaps Porzingis
3. Nikola Jokic

6th Man of the Year

1. Jeremy Lin
2. Enes Kanter
3. Manu Ginobili

Coach of the Year

1. Greg Popovich
2. Frank Vogel
3. Terry Stotts

Executive of the Year

1. Flip Saunders
The reason I chose flip, aside from him being my favorite coach/gm of all-time, was the selection of Karl Anthony-Towns and keeping Kevin Garnett in Minnesota. Both of these moves are setting Minnesota up to be better than his first rodeo here with KG. RIP Flip.

2. RC Buford
3. Rich Cho

[Reservoirdawgs]

Out of town have limited internet access so going to do poy only

1. Lebron
2. Curry
3. Durant
4. Westbrook
5. Kyrie (awesome finals) is good enough for me in a win

I mean...we all know what you're doing here, but even this is ridiculous for you. Kyrie missed 29 games with a so-so .540 TS% and a 109 ORtg and terrible defense. He was terrible offensively in three Finals games and offensively good in four Finals games, but his defense was an absolute trainwreck, particularly in games 1 & 2 (those games were lost because of his and Love's matador defense). He clearly has no place being in the Top 5 based on his missed games alone.

[JordansBulls]

Out of town have limited internet access so going to do poy only

1. Lebron
2. Curry
3. Durant
4. Westbrook
5. Kyrie (awesome finals) is good enough for me in a win

I mean...we all know what you're doing here, but even this is ridiculous for you. Kyrie missed 29 games with a so-so .540 TS% and a 109 ORtg and terrible defense. He was terrible offensively in three Finals games and offensively good in four Finals games, but his defense was an absolute trainwreck, particularly in games 1 & 2 (those games were lost because of his and Love's matador defense). He clearly has no place being in the Top 5 based on his missed games alone.

Outplayed the league mvp in the finals and averaged 27 ppg in them hitting the game winner in game 7.

[Reservoirdawgs]

Outplayed the league mvp in the finals and averaged 27 ppg in them hitting the game winner in game 7.

Irrelevant as we are talking about the player of the year, which is the player's accomplishments in total over the season. Even adding the postseason games to Kyrie's total, he still doesn't hit 82 games played this season. While he had a good shooting Finals, his defense was his typical atrocious self, which directly led to the Cavs being down 0-2. Irving even ended the season with a negative RPM due to his awful defense of -2.68...#440/462 players.

[Colbinii]

Out of town have limited internet access so going to do poy only

1. Lebron
2. Curry
3. Durant
4. Westbrook
5. Kyrie (awesome finals) is good enough for me in a win

I mean...we all know what you're doing here, but even this is ridiculous for you. Kyrie missed 29 games with a so-so .540 TS% and a 109 ORtg and terrible defense. He was terrible offensively in three Finals games and offensively good in four Finals games, but his defense was an absolute trainwreck, particularly in games 1 & 2 (those games were lost because of his and Love's matador defense). He clearly has no place being in the Top 5 based on his missed games alone.

Outplayed the league mvp in the finals and averaged 27 ppg in them hitting the game winner in game 7.

If this is the case than you should have LeBron James as DPOY because he was by far the best defender in the NBA Finals, especially when you consider that Green missed a game. You should also have Tristan Thompson in DPOY because of his tenacious rebounding and rim protection in the series. Hell, you might as well have every player on the Cavs/Warriors only in these votes.

[Reservoirdawgs]

If this is the case than you should have LeBron James as DPOY because he was by far the best defender in the NBA Finals, especially when you consider that Green missed a game. You should also have Tristan Thompson in DPOY because of his tenacious rebounding and rim protection in the series. Hell, you might as well have every player on the Cavs/Warriors only in these votes.

It's obvious why he's doing this (and why he immediately tried to start talking about how Lebron had the best teammate in a Game 7 on the road, hilariously narrow and limited categories notwithstanding)...because if he didn't try to prop up Kyrie, then he would have to admit that Lebron just had the GOAT season based on his silly criteria that he uses to prop up Jordan. Let's look at the Jordansbulls checklist:

1. Won a title with zero All-Stars on his team.
2. Won a title without home court advantage in the Finals.
3. Beat the GOAT regular season team (all while being the first team in history to come back from a 3-1 deficit in the Finals).
4. Won a title for a franchise that has never won before.
5. Won a title for a franchise that has never won before in a city that hasn't won a championship or experienced sports success in over 50 years.
6. Won the first and only FMVP for a franchise that has never won before.
7. Won a title as the only person on an All-NBA Team.

In order to continue his schtick, Jordansbulls has to try to prop up Kyrie as being otherworldly when everyone knows he was not.

EDIT: Corrected that Jordan never won without an All-Star.

[Rich Michmond]

If this is the case than you should have LeBron James as DPOY because he was by far the best defender in the NBA Finals, especially when you consider that Green missed a game. You should also have Tristan Thompson in DPOY because of his tenacious rebounding and rim protection in the series. Hell, you might as well have every player on the Cavs/Warriors only in these votes.

Jordan never won a title without an All-Star on his team...therefore Jordansbulls has to try to prop up Kyrie as being otherworldly when everyone knows he was not.

There's always hope: Scottie Pippen was not an All-Star in 1991 in 1998.

[Reservoirdawgs]

There's always hope: Scottie Pippen was not an All-Star in 1991 in 1998.

Bill Cartright was an All-Star in 1991. Granted, it was due to Isiah Thomas being injured, but he was still in the game. You're right, though, 1998 did not have another All-Star. Of course, by that point the Bulls as a franchise had already won a title and he had the rebounds leader Dennis Rodman on his team. Scottie Pippen was also Third Team All-NBA and First Team All Defense. Lebron was the only member of the Cavs to be on an All-NBA team.

EDIT: Apparently Wikipedia was wrong and Cartright was not an All Star in 1991!

[JordansBulls]

Cartwright was not an all star in 1991

http://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_1991.html

[JordansBulls]

If this is the case than you should have LeBron James as DPOY because he was by far the best defender in the NBA Finals, especially when you consider that Green missed a game. You should also have Tristan Thompson in DPOY because of his tenacious rebounding and rim protection in the series. Hell, you might as well have every player on the Cavs/Warriors only in these votes.

It's obvious why he's doing this (and why he immediately tried to start talking about how Lebron had the best teammate in a Game 7 on the road, hilariously narrow and limited categories notwithstanding)...because if he didn't try to prop up Kyrie, then he would have to admit that Lebron just had the GOAT season based on his silly criteria that he uses to prop up Jordan. Let's look at the Jordansbulls checklist:

1. Won a title with zero All-Stars on his team.
2. Won a title without home court advantage in the Finals.
3. Beat the GOAT regular season team (all while being the first team in history to come back from a 3-1 deficit in the Finals).
4. Won a title for a franchise that has never won before.
5. Won a title for a franchise that has never won before in a city that hasn't won a championship or experienced sports success in over 50 years.
6. Won the first and only FMVP for a franchise that has never won before.
7. Won a title as the only person on an All-NBA Team.

Jordan never won a title without an All-Star on his team or someone who was a league leader in a category or was on an All-NBA Team...therefore Jordansbulls has to try to prop up Kyrie as being otherworldly when everyone knows he was not.

EDIT: Corrected that Jordan never won without someone who was on an All-NBA Team.

1991 he was and 1998, but I see no reason why you are bringing up other players when we are talking 2016

The fact of the matter is Kyrie outplayed the league mvp and it was a guy who played the same position at that. No other number 2 guy on a team did that.

[Rich Michmond]

There's always hope: Scottie Pippen was not an All-Star in 1991 in 1998.

Bill Cartright was an All-Star in 1991. Granted, it was due to Isiah Thomas being injured, but he was still in the game. You're right, though, 1998 did not have another All-Star. Of course, by that point the Bulls as a franchise had already won a title and he had the rebounds leader Dennis Rodman on his team. Scottie Pippen was also Third Team All-NBA and First Team All Defense. Lebron was the only member of the Cavs to be on an All-NBA team.

Would have never guessed a 33yo 9/6 Cartwright was an all-star. Basketball-reference does not mention him playing in that all-star game, but apparently wiki (of all sources...) claims it did happen. And according to this site Isiah Thomas had no replacement http://www.landofbasketball.com/allstargames/1991_nba_all_star_game.htm Still, irrespective of whether Cartwright played in that game or not, why Pippen was not selected, especially considering the fact that he had been an all-star just a year before, is beyond me. He was definitely a better player in 1991.

Sorry for the OT.

[Reservoirdawgs]

Cartwright was not an all star in 1991

http://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_1991.html

Interesting, as Wikipedia had him listed as an All-Star. I'll amend.

[Reservoirdawgs]

The fact of the matter is Kyrie outplayed the league mvp and it was a guy who played the same position at that. No other number 2 guy on a team did that.

All of that is irrelevant. Kyrie's awful defense was the reason that the Cavs were down the first two games (and he didn't even shoot as well as Curry throughout the Finals). Kyrie's missed games AND net negative impact when he was on the court due to his horrendous defense clearly has him nowhere near the top 5.

To your point though, Scottie Pippen outplayed Karl Malone in the 1997 Finals. He beat him out on TS%, eFG%, ORtg, and had superior defense.

[JordansBulls]

The fact of the matter is Kyrie outplayed the league mvp and it was a guy who played the same position at that. No other number 2 guy on a team did that.

All of that is irrelevant. Kyrie's awful defense was the reason that the Cavs were down the first two games (and he didn't even shoot as well as Curry throughout the Finals). Kyrie's missed games AND net negative impact when he was on the court due to his horrendous defense clearly has him nowhere near the top 5.

To your point though, Scottie Pippen outplayed Karl Malone in the 1997 Finals. He beat him out on TS%, eFG%, ORtg, and had superior defense.

What awful defense not like Curry was getting off or anything in those games and Lebron didn't play too well in those either.

Pippen may have been up there with Malone but certainly didn't outplay him. Malone certainly still had a higher game score. And it wasn't like the considerable gap that Kyrie had over Curry.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't see how people can still see Kawhi as a better defender than Green....

Care to elaborate?

To clear confusion, i typed "defender" in the post you replyed to but I was referring to them as overall defensive players. i hope that makes sense.

Since Green's rise to dominance(2015) i never viewed Kawhi as a better defender. Green just carries a much bigger defensive load as a 4/5 while having arguably better defensive stats than Kawhi. Guarding 4s, rotating for the defense, successfully guarding the 1-5 when siwtched onto any of them, along with being a legit defensive anchor when he is moved to the 5 spot.

A lot of people's argument for Kawhi's defense this season had a lot to do with the Spurs being the best defense in the league, Green was a big reason why the Warriors were the best defense in 2015 and he still wasn't universally considered as the better defensive player.

Kawhi has never actually been put into the position Green has(full time 4, small ball 5) to showcase these abilities, so it's hard to see if he can actually do it at a comparable or higher level.

I think Green is a better offensive player as well, but that's another discussion.

I understand in general siding with the 4/5 over the 3, but when it comes to Green that's actually my concern. Obviously against most teams you get an edge on the mismatch with Green there, but he looked undersized against OKC and I find myself thinking that if you were really going up against, say, Shaq, you just wouldn't be able to use Green in that way at all.