Orlando early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Smitty731/HowardMass)

[Skin]

Okay, I know Vuc is starting, and I never said otherwise. I have read posts about Ibaka and Biyombo being on the court together and "defending the rim", but when you look at the line-up at a whole, including offense, it isn't very pretty.

The Magic aren't a finished product. Nobody is arguing that they are contenders. However, this team is clearly trying to take the next step and are no longer interested in being a lottery team. In order to do that, they had to begin to seriously address their weaknesses. Interior defense was one of if not their biggest problems. You can point to "yeah, but their offense looks bad", and you wouldn't be wrong. But it's still a positive step towards getting better and the Magic didn't fail to recognize that they needed to add shooters. Incoming - Augustin, Meeks, Wilcox. ~40% shooters from 3. Plus they are moving Fournier in as our starting 2 which is a shooting upgrade over Oladipo. Yes, they are still heavily reliant on Payton and Gordon stepping up and those 2 have not yet proven they can do it. So there is some blind faith there. But are they doing a bad job of putting them in an environment to succeed?

They still have a flaw on the roster which is lack of outside shooting.

Now you're just moving goalposts.

I can't seem to remember ever bringing up $17 million is bad or that it is bad for him to come off the bench.

Maybe not you, but it's a frequent mention.

I don't know what these stats mean or indicate.

That a team can grow to be a contender with such a player.

[Colbinii]

Okay, I know Vuc is starting, and I never said otherwise. I have read posts about Ibaka and Biyombo being on the court together and "defending the rim", but when you look at the line-up at a whole, including offense, it isn't very pretty.

The Magic aren't a finished product. Nobody is arguing that they are contenders. However, this team is clearly trying to take the next step and are no longer interested in being a lottery team. In order to do that, they had to begin to seriously address their weaknesses. Interior defense was one of if not their biggest problems. You can point to "yeah, but their offense looks bad", and you wouldn't be wrong. But it's still a positive step towards getting better and the Magic didn't fail to recognize that they needed to add shooters. Incoming - Augustin, Meeks, Wilcox. ~40% shooters from 3. Plus they are moving Fournier in as our starting 2 which is a shooting upgrade over Oladipo. Yes, they are still heavily reliant on Payton and Gordon stepping up and those 2 have not yet proven they can do it. So there is some blind faith there. But are they doing a bad job of putting them in an environment to succeed?

Payton hasn't shown me what I want to see out of a PG that makes me think he is going to take his game to the level that is needed to make the playoffs. Some teams can get away with having a weak PG if they have other playmakers, go-to scorers, and good 3+D players. The problem I see with the magic is that they addressed 3 pt shooting by adding players who shouldn't play more than 10-15 MPG.

Now you're just moving goalposts.

No i'm not. This thread is to discuss the Orlando Magic as a whole, not just the Orlando Magic's interior defense. Once we have discussed the interior defense (which we both agree upon is improved), we can move onto the next thing they need to work on as a team to make the playoffs, which is spreading the floor, more importantly, 3 PT shooting.

Maybe not you, but it's a frequent mention.

shifting goal posts

I don't know what these stats mean or indicate.

That a team can grow to be a contender with such a player.

When they have offensive weapons like Kyle Lowry, Demar Derozan, Valanciunas; role-players like DeMarre Carroll, Cory Joseph, Patrick Patterson, and Terrance Ross. That team was a team with both top end talent and shooters around them. The Magic are built nothing like the 2016 Toronto Raptors.

[Skin]

Okay, I know Vuc is starting, and I never said otherwise. I have read posts about Ibaka and Biyombo being on the court together and "defending the rim", but when you look at the line-up at a whole, including offense, it isn't very pretty.

The Magic aren't a finished product. Nobody is arguing that they are contenders. However, this team is clearly trying to take the next step and are no longer interested in being a lottery team. In order to do that, they had to begin to seriously address their weaknesses. Interior defense was one of if not their biggest problems. You can point to "yeah, but their offense looks bad", and you wouldn't be wrong. But it's still a positive step towards getting better and the Magic didn't fail to recognize that they needed to add shooters. Incoming - Augustin, Meeks, Wilcox. ~40% shooters from 3. Plus they are moving Fournier in as our starting 2 which is a shooting upgrade over Oladipo. Yes, they are still heavily reliant on Payton and Gordon stepping up and those 2 have not yet proven they can do it. So there is some blind faith there. But are they doing a bad job of putting them in an environment to succeed?

Payton hasn't shown me what I want to see out of a PG that makes me think he is going to take his game to the level that is needed to make the playoffs. Some teams can get away with having a weak PG if they have other playmakers, go-to scorers, and good 3+D players. The problem I see with the magic is that they addressed 3 pt shooting by adding players who shouldn't play more than 10-15 MPG.

Now you're just moving goalposts.

No i'm not. This thread is to discuss the Orlando Magic as a whole, not just the Orlando Magic's interior defense. Once we have discussed the interior defense (which we both agree upon is improved), we can move onto the next thing they need to work on as a team to make the playoffs, which is spreading the floor, more importantly, 3 PT shooting.

Maybe not you, but it's a frequent mention.

shifting goal posts

I don't know what these stats mean or indicate.

That a team can grow to be a contender with such a player.

When they have offensive weapons like Kyle Lowry, Demar Derozan, Valanciunas; role-players like DeMarre Carroll, Cory Joseph, Patrick Patterson, and Terrance Ross. That team was a team with both top end talent and shooters around them. The Magic are built nothing like the 2016 Toronto Raptors.

I haven't seen it out of Payton either and I have my doubts as well. But since the Magic used their 1st in a trade to upgrade interior defense, I didn't see another opportunity to upgrade Payton. The FA class was Conley or bust. So yeah, they did only make modest additions to address their shooting. In theory, those are sound moves. Every bench player can shoot. The future is not roadblocked. Cap flexibility is still in tact going forward.

Magic don't have a Lowry and that's a big deal. But there are some decent comparisons between Derozan ~ Fournier, Valanciunas ~ Vucevic, Carroll ~ Gordon, Joseph ~ Augustin, Patterson ~ Ibaka, Ross ~ Meeks/Hezonja.

[pelifan]

haha could someone give me a summary of what went down for this to go 20 pages?

[Colbinii]

haha could someone give me a summary of what went down for this to go 20 pages?

Some Magic fan's think that all of their young players are going to reach full potential, their defense is going to be largely improved, and they could finish as a 5 seed.
Some Magic fan's think that the team will improve in the interior defense, some of the young players will improve, but they have a lot of question marks, finishing 6th-10th in the East.

Most outsiders see them as a 8-11 seed.

[orlando_joe]

haha could someone give me a summary of what went down for this to go 20 pages?

Some Magic fan's think that all of their young players are going to reach full potential, their defense is going to be largely improved, and they could finish as a 5 seed.
Some Magic fan's think that the team will improve in the interior defense, some of the young players will improve, but they have a lot of question marks, finishing 6th-10th in the East.

Most outsiders see them as a 8-11 seed.

or...some outsiders think all magic moves are the worst thing any gm has ever done...all there young players will only be worse..and are doomed to be worst team in nba ..well other then nets..and maybe lakers..all there trades and signings make no sense at all...but when you look at the votes....way ...way...way...more votes are above avg...hmmmmm

[wise1-2]

haha could someone give me a summary of what went down for this to go 20 pages?

Some Magic fan's think that all of their young players are going to reach full potential, their defense is going to be largely improved, and they could finish as a 5 seed.
Some Magic fan's think that the team will improve in the interior defense, some of the young players will improve, but they have a lot of question marks, finishing 6th-10th in the East.

Most outsiders see them as a 8-11 seed.

You realise that the east is so deep that only a few wins will separate the 5th and the 8th seed? It was only a 4 game difference last season, and could be closer this season.

[jayjaysee]

haha could someone give me a summary of what went down for this to go 20 pages?

Some Magic fan's think that all of their young players are going to reach full potential, their defense is going to be largely improved, and they could finish as a 5 seed.
Some Magic fan's think that the team will improve in the interior defense, some of the young players will improve, but they have a lot of question marks, finishing 6th-10th in the East.

Most outsiders see them as a 8-11 seed.

You realise that the east is so deep that only a few wins will separate the 5th and the 8th seed? It was only a 4 game difference last season, and could be closer this season.

This further pushes what pages 5-18 talked about that Orlando didn't improve as much as the teams they are chasing or even two of the teams that were behind them last season. Its very circular. The East being deep doesn't mean Orlando is closer to the top, the two have nothing to do with each other.

Most fans of rebuilding teams would be happy with other fans complimenting their prospects and the future, despite not liking the offseason...like some Orlando fans have reacted in this thread. But some fans haven't accepted those responses

Thus this thread keeps going. It's beautiful. I feel like this thread has more posts than all of last August in this forum.

[Colbinii]

haha could someone give me a summary of what went down for this to go 20 pages?

Some Magic fan's think that all of their young players are going to reach full potential, their defense is going to be largely improved, and they could finish as a 5 seed.
Some Magic fan's think that the team will improve in the interior defense, some of the young players will improve, but they have a lot of question marks, finishing 6th-10th in the East.

Most outsiders see them as a 8-11 seed.

or...some outsiders think all magic moves are the worst thing any gm has ever done...all there young players will only be worse..and are doomed to be worst team in nba ..well other then nets..and maybe lakers..all there trades and signings make no sense at all...but when you look at the votes....way ...way...way...more votes are above avg...hmmmmm

I don't think anyone thinks that. If so, then why do a lot of us outsiders think they will finish between 8-11 in a competitive east?
I think they had a decent off-season and should be improved over last years squad. That said, they are relying on Payton making a big step, something he hasn't shown but could with Dipo gone, and Gordon growing, which seems much more likely than an improved payton product.

[Colbinii]

haha could someone give me a summary of what went down for this to go 20 pages?

Some Magic fan's think that all of their young players are going to reach full potential, their defense is going to be largely improved, and they could finish as a 5 seed.
Some Magic fan's think that the team will improve in the interior defense, some of the young players will improve, but they have a lot of question marks, finishing 6th-10th in the East.

Most outsiders see them as a 8-11 seed.

You realise that the east is so deep that only a few wins will separate the 5th and the 8th seed? It was only a 4 game difference last season, and could be closer this season.

I do, and it is why I think the Veteran teams will squeeze into the 4-7 seeds.

[wise1-2]

Some Magic fan's think that all of their young players are going to reach full potential, their defense is going to be largely improved, and they could finish as a 5 seed.
Some Magic fan's think that the team will improve in the interior defense, some of the young players will improve, but they have a lot of question marks, finishing 6th-10th in the East.

Most outsiders see them as a 8-11 seed.

You realise that the east is so deep that only a few wins will separate the 5th and the 8th seed? It was only a 4 game difference last season, and could be closer this season.

This further pushes what pages 5-18 talked about that Orlando didn't improve as much as the teams they are chasing or even two of the teams that were behind them last season. Its very circular. The East being deep doesn't mean Orlando is closer to the top, the two have nothing to do with each other.

Most fans of rebuilding teams would be happy with other fans complimenting their prospects and the future, despite not liking the offseason...like some Orlando fans have reacted in this thread. But some fans haven't accepted those responses

Thus this thread keeps going. It's beautiful. I feel like this thread has more posts than all of last August in this forum.

No the whole east improved, but I think the Magic improved a lot. Just because I said the east is deep doesn't mean the Magic didn't improve as much as other teams. I dont know how you came to that conclusion. On paper the Magic definitely improved. I dont know how anyone can claim otherwise. I also don't know what you're complaining about. You can just press the little "x" if this thread bothers you. Then, you can be done with this thread. I'm trying to show people a different point of view of what they perceive as mistakes. Factors they haven't considered. Which I did multiple times in this thread. Its like you just want everyone to post their opinion in one post and agree to disagree with others. There's enough of that in this forum.

[wise1-2]

Some Magic fan's think that all of their young players are going to reach full potential, their defense is going to be largely improved, and they could finish as a 5 seed.
Some Magic fan's think that the team will improve in the interior defense, some of the young players will improve, but they have a lot of question marks, finishing 6th-10th in the East.

Most outsiders see them as a 8-11 seed.

You realise that the east is so deep that only a few wins will separate the 5th and the 8th seed? It was only a 4 game difference last season, and could be closer this season.

I do, and it is why I think the Veteran teams will squeeze into the 4-7 seeds.

Veteran teams dont always make the play offs just because they're veterans. The Pistons made the play offs over the Bulls last year. You could be right, we'll see.
What I'm pointing out with my post is that if most outsiders think they'll get the 8-11th seed, then its possible the Magic get a few extra wins and secure the 5th seed. I'm not saying they'll be the 5th seed, but its not that farfetched if you think they'll be an 8th seed. I sensed a little sarcasm in this part: "Some Magic fan's think that all of their young players are going to reach full potential". Not one magic fan said all the Magic players are going to reach their full potential this season.

[Viper1500]

I gave them a C+, I really was not overly impressed with anything besides the Fournier contract. I think some solid moves were made, but nothing that generates a high grade. We overpaid for Ibaka, Biz, Green and Augustin. It could very well payoff but as of right now.. it's just a giant question mark.

[Statlanta]

Looks like the way the thread length turned out you would think that either the Orlando RealGM user base was as big as Toronto/New York or that there would be more F and D grades(11) than A and A- grades(15).

[bondom34]

Looks like the way the thread length turned out you would think that either the Orlando RealGM user base was as big as Toronto/New York or that there would be more F and D grades(11) than A and A- grades(15).

Or that a lot of Magic fans frequent the trade board.

[Colbinii]

Looks like the way the thread length turned out you would think that either the Orlando RealGM user base was as big as Toronto/New York or that there would be more F and D grades(11) than A and A- grades(15).

It is actually just a lot of people questioning the line of thinking that the Magic aren't the only team to improve.

[wise1-2]

haha could someone give me a summary of what went down for this to go 20 pages?

Oladipo is suddenly a better player than Ibaka. The Magic got robbed on that trade, and an 11th round pick in a weak draft is very valuable and franchise altering.

Gordon can't do anything but play defense, and his best case scenario is serge ibaka, even thought their play styles are totally different.

The Magic will average 70 PPG because no one can score. even though the 10 win sixers averaged 98 PPG this past season. They're going to be much worse now that they lost the scoring champ victor oladipo.

The Magic dumped Harris only to replace him with Green. Not Biyombo. Not the guy on a long term deal. Nope. They replaced him with Green, the expiring contract. That was Robs plan all along. The FO saying they wanted cap space in 2017 means nothing. The fact that they can chase a prime FA next year also means nothing. Nothing at all.

Biyombo and Ibaka are going to be so bad together they wont be able to stay on the court at all.

[Colbinii]

haha could someone give me a summary of what went down for this to go 20 pages?

Oladipo is suddenly a better player than Ibaka. The Magic got robbed on that trade, and an 11th round pick in a weak draft is very valuable and franchise altering.

Gordon can't do anything but play defense, and his best case scenario is serge ibaka, even thought their play styles are totally different.

The Magic will average 70 PPG because no one can score. even though the 10 win sixers averaged 98 PPG this past season. They're going to be much worse now that they lost the scoring champ victor oladipo.

The Magic dumped Harris only to replace him with Green. Not Biyombo. Not the guy on a long term deal. Nope. They replaced him with Green, the expiring contract. That was Robs plan all along. The FO saying they wanted cap space in 2017 means nothing. The fact that they can chase a prime FA next year also means nothing. Nothing at all.

Biyombo and Ibaka are going to be so bad together they wont be able to stay on the court at all.

When was this posted? I haven't seen it since I joined the discussion.

[tmorgan]

Does "wise" mean "sarcastic" in a language I don't know?

Good lord, man, settle it down. Outsiders don't like the moves as much as insiders. How is this the least bit shocking? Keep the faith.

[HartfordWhalers]

As long as we are back to saying that Harris was dumped to be replaced by someone they already had cap space for, I'm going to go back to ignoring the rest of the equally bad points.