The Official Lin Net Thread

[hood30]

His turnovers are likely gonna skyrocket now that he's had primary ballhandler with few other options

That's the other problem that this Brooklyn team have..at least the projected starting 5 of Lin/Bogs/RHJ/Booker/Lopez.....with the exception of Lin, Who exactly can create their own shot off the dribble?

Also, we will see Lin getting pressed off the ball a lot...Once that happen, who can you trust to handle the ball and be the second facilitator?

Some people have concluded there could be a chance that Vasquez may be preferable to start because it gives Brooklyn more flexibility and balance in the starting unit....Vasquez is also 6'6, so he could possibly guard taller wings players while Lin can guard the smaller PG.

The current projected line-up not only lacks spacing/shooting but it also lacks a legit third scoring option....and to add into that, it also lacks someone on the perimeter that can create his own shot or create a shot for someone else...Bogs, RHJ and Booker can't be counted on creating shot for themselves and others.

This is where I thought Rudy Gay could had helped a little bit as a legit scoring option and a guy that can create his own shot easily.

[Johnstarks]

I don't know the whole deal on Vazquez last year but holy hell there has to be better d league talent than him. How on earth did he get paid again look at his stats?!

[DartboardT]

They call it AST/TO ratio for a reason.

Let's not get too concerned about Lin's projected TO average until the regular season starts. I didn't notice anything particularly bad in Lin's game concerning TOs when he was playing more of a PG role with the Hornets. I don't expect it to be all that great in Year 1 with the "Hapless Nets", but it wasn't too awful with Lin on the Even More Hapless Lakers.

[MrDollarBills]

I don't know the whole deal on Vazquez last year but holy hell there has to be better d league talent than him. How on earth did he get paid again look at his stats?!

I said the same thing but he was injured.

I'm not as high on him though as others. i need to see him produce.

[Johnstarks]

I mean it's pretty realistic to think turnovers are going to be a problem. They've been an issue his whole career and teams are going to key on stopping his pnr. He will probably face traps, a lot of going under picks, and lots of extra defenders in the paint since they don't have shooters.

It's just not realistic to think he's going to morph into Chris Paul. Fatigue is going to be a serious issue because they have so little help for him. This would be an issue for any pg facing this type of situation but lin is worse ballhandler than most other pg and teams aren't going to need to assign much defensive attention anywhere else

[reelsgm]

It's gonna be lin getting thrown to the wolves a lot and this team is poor all around. Given his propensity for turnovers they really could have used Tyler johnson as a second ballhandler.

LIn had the best turnovers per 36 of his entire career last season at 2.6 among the best in the league for PGs and that's 50% fewer than when he was a kid on the Knicks.

While it is true Lin has decreased his turnover per36 from last year Hornets to his previous year, you still can claim the only reason Lin turnover dropped was simply because he handled the ball less and played less PG.

In other word, it is fair for Lin's distractors to claim he only improved on his turnovers rate because he played most of his minutes as a SG while guys like Kemba/Batum handled more.

To deepen that point, if you look at NylonCalculous which splits Lin's minutes at PG and SG, you will see that Lin as a "PG per36 turnover" is still high at 3.6....Now, compare that to Kemba PG-Per36 which is only 2.0.....

So Lin still had a very high turnover rate at PG than other PG.

Calling BS on your Nylon Calculus example on two specific fronts :

1) Of Lin's playing time breakdown they have him at SG 63.4% and PG at 36.6%. Reality is Lin deferred the point to Walker, Batum and even Brian Roberts whenever they were on the floor. Of Lin's 27 mpg approximately 5 mins were Lin as the primary sole PG or 19% instead of 37% as per nyloncalculus. So the number you should focus on for Lin is 2.6 TOs because nylon methodology of splitting position played is FLAWED.

2) To further drive home this point, how do you explain Nic Batum. Batum shared point with Walker but when Walker was out, Batum dominated point. Yet Nylon calculus only has Batum 10% at SG with TO of 3.4 and 90% at SF with TO of 3.0. With those TO rates that makes Batum the HIGHEST turnover machine of almost ANY SF or SG in the NBA.

So it's not clear how Nylon is calculating the Position Played stats but it's not anywhere near what actually happened on the floor.

You can believe whatever you like but the eye test suggests Lin's turnover rate is no worse than a PG of his size, tiny PGs like Kemba or Isaiah Thomas or Spud Webb always have a ball-handling advantage it's simple physics.

[spaceballer]

JLin practicing with Spencer Hawes and Nick Collison. I'm assuming they're training in Seattle since he's there for DOTA and Hawes lives in Seattle.

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He's in Seattle for the DOTA tournament. I didn't realize Yormark was trying to bring E-Sports to Barclays.

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And he's scheduled to speak at Seacoast Grace Church in Orange County this weekend.

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His youtube channel added a video from when he gave out free shoes in Taiwan this summer. Turn on captions if you're like me and can't understand Mandarin Obviously he's just playing against random college kids and not NBA defenders, but I thought that was a pretty nifty move at 2:20 with the mid-air correction that looked like an up and under.

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[hood30]

LIn had the best turnovers per 36 of his entire career last season at 2.6 among the best in the league for PGs and that's 50% fewer than when he was a kid on the Knicks.

While it is true Lin has decreased his turnover per36 from last year Hornets to his previous year, you still can claim the only reason Lin turnover dropped was simply because he handled the ball less and played less PG.

In other word, it is fair for Lin's distractors to claim he only improved on his turnovers rate because he played most of his minutes as a SG while guys like Kemba/Batum handled more.

To deepen that point, if you look at NylonCalculous which splits Lin's minutes at PG and SG, you will see that Lin as a "PG per36 turnover" is still high at 3.6....Now, compare that to Kemba PG-Per36 which is only 2.0.....

So Lin still had a very high turnover rate at PG than other PG.

Calling BS on your Nylon Calculus example on two specific fronts :

1) Of Lin's playing time breakdown they have him at SG 63.4% and PG at 36.6%. Reality is Lin deferred the point to Walker, Batum and even Brian Roberts whenever they were on the floor. Of Lin's 27 mpg approximately 5 mins were Lin as the primary sole PG or 19% instead of 37% as per nyloncalculus. So the number you should focus on for Lin is 2.6 TOs because nylon methodology of splitting position played is FLAWED.

2) To further drive home this point, how do you explain Nic Batum. Batum shared point with Walker but when Walker was out, Batum dominated point. Yet Nylon calculus only has Batum 10% at SG with TO of 3.4 and 90% at SF with TO of 3.0. With those TO rates that makes Batum the HIGHEST turnover machine of almost ANY SF or SG in the NBA.

So it's not clear how Nylon is calculating the Position Played stats but it's not anywhere near what actually happened on the floor.

You can believe whatever you like but the eye test suggests Lin's turnover rate is no worse than a PG of his size, tiny PGs like Kemba or Isaiah Thomas or Spud Webb always have a ball-handling advantage it's simple physics.

I'm surprised that you refuses to acknowledge that the reason Lin's turnovers were down was because he spent the majority of his minutes as a shooting-guard thus not having as much chance to turn it over as much...Logic states that the player who handles the ball the most will have more chance to turn it over than a player that does not handle it as much.

Lin turnover clearly went down because of the fact that he did less ball-handling with the Hornets.

NylonCalculous stats are pretty neat...On the 36% of Lin's minutes played at PG, they expended his TO stats per36 and it came up at 3.6....Now, does that mean Lin would had turned the ball over that many time?...Nope since the per36 stats can be flawed, but it gives you an idea of how a player would had done with more minutes.

This is the same stats which put Lin's "per36" as a PG at 18.6ppg if he had played 36mpg as a point-guard for Charlotte...So you accept the 18ppg but reject the 3.6 TO?

For me, I don't mind the turnovers, as long as he's doing other stuff well to help the team win..This was Mike D'Antoni's opinion about Lin when he was turning the ball over about 5 time per game..He still scored a lot and averaged 8 assist per game.

[DartboardT]

The 18 ppg didn't need to be per-36'd, it's actually a sample with some 15-16 season full game samples behind it, which is nice.

Consider that these were essentially "opportunity"/"next man up"/or my personal favorite, "Lin Case of Emergency" games where Lin "played outside" his 6th man "comfort zone" (remember: Clifford would never have started Lin if Kemba and Nic were both healthy), and Nets fans should be even further encouraged. You can only small sample size those stats away so much.

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TOs, 3.6 wouldn't be awful provided the assists and solid scoring stats/percentages are there. I could see TOs on the high side (high 3s in the early going if the team gets off to a rough start). There's more than just that to eval a player; I can't see Nets fans crying out for blood (or to activate Lin's trade kicker) if Lin averaged 3.6 in the first 20 games or so. I think it'll be lower, but who knows. So many unknowables.

[reelsgm]

While it is true Lin has decreased his turnover per36 from last year Hornets to his previous year, you still can claim the only reason Lin turnover dropped was simply because he handled the ball less and played less PG.

To deepen that point, if you look at NylonCalculous which splits Lin's minutes at PG and SG, you will see that Lin as a "PG per36 turnover" is still high at 3.6....Now, compare that to Kemba PG-Per36 which is only 2.0.....

So Lin still had a very high turnover rate at PG than other PG.

Calling BS on your Nylon Calculus example on two specific fronts :

1) Of Lin's playing time breakdown they have him at SG 63.4% and PG at 36.6%. Reality is Lin deferred the point to Walker, Batum and even Brian Roberts whenever they were on the floor. Of Lin's 27 mpg approximately 5 mins were Lin as the primary sole PG or 19% instead of 37% as per nyloncalculus. So the number you should focus on for Lin is 2.6 TOs because nylon methodology of splitting position played is FLAWED.

2) To further drive home this point, how do you explain Nic Batum. Batum shared point with Walker but when Walker was out, Batum dominated point. Yet Nylon calculus only has Batum 10% at SG with TO of 3.4 and 90% at SF with TO of 3.0. With those TO rates that makes Batum the HIGHEST turnover machine of almost ANY SF or SG in the NBA.

I'm surprised that you refuses to acknowledge that the reason Lin's turnovers were down was because he spent the majority of his minutes as a shooting-guard thus not having as much chance to turn it over as much.

This is the same stats which put Lin's "per36" as a PG at 18.6ppg if he had played 36mpg as a point-guard for Charlotte...So you accept the 18ppg but reject the 3.6 TO?

You ignore the methodological flaw in the Position Played and simultaneously attribute words to me which I don't accept.

1) Do you acknowledge that Batum has amongst one of the worst TO at the positions he plays? SF (only 4 SFs exceed) & SG (only 4 SGs exceed).

2) In fact, I do not accept the 18.6ppg for Lin at PG, the methodological flaw renders that too EXTREME, meaning it's somewhere between the 16.1 and 18.6.

Lin's TOs have come down every season since Knicks and a portion of this continued natural progression is subsumed in the 2.6 which you explicitly deny because you believe nylon's huge jump to 3.6 TOs.

Again nylon too EXTREME; reality is playing off-ball SG probably around 2.4 and PG around 2.9 arriving at the 2.6.

[hood30]

Calling BS on your Nylon Calculus example on two specific fronts :

1) Of Lin's playing time breakdown they have him at SG 63.4% and PG at 36.6%. Reality is Lin deferred the point to Walker, Batum and even Brian Roberts whenever they were on the floor. Of Lin's 27 mpg approximately 5 mins were Lin as the primary sole PG or 19% instead of 37% as per nyloncalculus. So the number you should focus on for Lin is 2.6 TOs because nylon methodology of splitting position played is FLAWED.

2) To further drive home this point, how do you explain Nic Batum. Batum shared point with Walker but when Walker was out, Batum dominated point. Yet Nylon calculus only has Batum 10% at SG with TO of 3.4 and 90% at SF with TO of 3.0. With those TO rates that makes Batum the HIGHEST turnover machine of almost ANY SF or SG in the NBA.

I'm surprised that you refuses to acknowledge that the reason Lin's turnovers were down was because he spent the majority of his minutes as a shooting-guard thus not having as much chance to turn it over as much.

This is the same stats which put Lin's "per36" as a PG at 18.6ppg if he had played 36mpg as a point-guard for Charlotte...So you accept the 18ppg but reject the 3.6 TO?

You ignore the methodological flaw in the Position Played and simultaneously attribute words to me which I don't accept.

1) Do you acknowledge that Batum has amongst one of the worst TO at the positions he plays? SF (only 4 SFs exceed) & SG (only 4 SGs exceed).

2) In fact, I do not accept the 18.6ppg for Lin at PG, the methodological flaw renders that too EXTREME, meaning it's somewhere between the 16.1 and 18.6.

Lin's TOs have come down every season since Knicks and a portion of this continued natural progression is subsumed in the 2.6 which you explicitly deny because you believe nylon's huge jump to 3.6 TOs.

Again nylon too EXTREME; reality is playing off-ball SG probably around 2.4 and PG around 2.9 arriving at the 2.6.

You seemed to AGAIN disregard Lin played the majority of his minutes OFF THE BALL..Unlike his previous 3 years.....How can you even reject that fact??

The "2.6TO" that you keep repeating is for his overall minutes at all position by Per36..We can't go by that stats because Lin was not a point-guard for the Hornets...He spent most of his time in the corner.

Therefore, the "2.6TO" is not a true reflection on how Lin would have done if he had played the majority of his minutes at PG.

Last year with Charlotte was an abnormal year for Lin because he was used much more as a SG..While he's played off the ball with Harden, Kobe and Clarkson, he still played most of his minutes at PG during these years..It was not so in Charlotte.

Lin will be the main PG for Brooklyn and it is reasonable to expect his turn-over to spike beyond "2.6 by per36", simply because he will have more time on the ball, thus more chances to turn it over...Unlike in Charlotte where he spent a lot of his minutes on the corner.

Even with the Lakers and Houston, Lin played most of his minutes at PG..Check it out..With Charlotte, he was basically a SG and spent a lot of time in the corner...and this played a part in his lowered turn-over for Charlotte.

More time in the corner without the ball = less time to turn the ball over...Can we even agree to this???

During one of Charlotte playoff game with Miami, NBA analyst Brent Barry brought this fact about Lin by stating that while Lin's turn-overs were down from previous year, that could be because he did less of the ball-handling because of Kemba Walker.

I don't care how big of a Lin fan you are, you simply have to take your bias sunglasses off and accept that Lin played the less amount of minutes at PG during the past 3 years and that contributed to a lower TO.

As a Lin fan myself, I refuse to be so bias to the fact that I would disregard logic.

Below is the % of Lin's minutes played as a PG in his previous 3 teams.

Hornets: 37% at Point Guard... ..Overall minutes at all position: 26.3mpg......1.9 TO per game

Lakers: 95% at Point Guard.....Overall minutes at all position: 25.8mpg.......2.2 TO per game

2.Houston: 89% at Point Guard.....Overall minutes at all position; 28.9mpg.......2.5 TO per game

So Lin did less ball-handling for the Hornets and that truly played a huge role in decreasing his TO...Only a massively bias Lin fan can totally reject this.

[reelsgm]

Only a massively bias Lin fan can totally reject this.

Let's move on, the thread is available for everyone to read and comprehend; I can't help you.

[cw3k]

Below is the % of Lin's minutes played as a PG in his previous 3 teams.

Hornets: 37% at Point Guard... ..Overall minutes at all position: 26.3mpg......1.9 TO per game

Lakers: 95% at Point Guard.....Overall minutes at all position: 25.8mpg.......2.2 TO per game

2.Houston: 89% at Point Guard.....Overall minutes at all position; 28.9mpg.......2.5 TO per game

So Lin did less ball-handling for the Hornets and that truly played a huge role in decreasing his TO...Only a massively bias Lin fan can totally reject this.

Actually, the data you presented is kind of bias. If you have watched the games you would see Lin was playing off the ball at the Rockets (year 2) and at the Lakers as well. Yes, he was played at the PG position and that was it.

At the Rockets, Harden played an average of 40+ MPG and when Harden sit, Beverley, yes, Beverley was handling the ball. Lin was not handling the ball much.

At the Lakers, I don't need to remind anyone that Kobe was chasing MJ's all time scoring list where the "ball handler" just carry the ball to half court to "assist" Kobe.

All in all, Lin had played out of position much of the last 3 years.

[hood30]

Actually, the data you presented is kind of bias. If you have watched the games you would see Lin was playing off the ball at the Rockets (year 2) and at the Lakers as well. Yes, he was played at the PG position and that was it.

At the Rockets, Harden played an average of 40+ MPG and when Harden sit, Beverley, yes, Beverley was handling the ball. Lin was not handling the ball much.

At the Lakers, I don't need to remind anyone that Kobe was chasing MJ's all time scoring list where the "ball handler" just carry the ball to half court to "assist" Kobe.

All in all, Lin had played out of position much of the last 3 years.

While Lin also played off the ball with the Rockets and Lakers, he did so much more while playing with Charlotte..on a larger scale.

Even with Harden, specially during the first year, Lin did facilitate a lot..On the second year with Houston, he came off the bench and was the main facilitator as the reserve PG.

Even with James and Beverly, Lin would at the very least, share ball-handling duty....With Walker, Lin did not share duty facilitating..Walker was the PG and always brought the ball up.

Also on the Lakers with Kobe and Clarkson...Lin was at best, part time PG alongside Kobe/Clarkson...It was not so with the Hornets..With Charlotte, whenever Kemba was on the floor, he was the main PG...Not only that, but Lin had relinquish PG duties to Batum on many occasion whenever Walker was on the bench...That diminished his time on the ball further.

Statistics does shows he clearly played a very large amount of minutes at SG with the Hornets in compare to with Houston/Lakers.

Stats don't lie..If you want to ignore them, fine..No one is saying Lin did not play off the ball with Lakers/Houston..What I'm saying is that he did it much more with Hornets..It's not even close.

[cw3k]

Actually, the data you presented is kind of bias. If you have watched the games you would see Lin was playing off the ball at the Rockets (year 2) and at the Lakers as well. Yes, he was played at the PG position and that was it.

At the Rockets, Harden played an average of 40+ MPG and when Harden sit, Beverley, yes, Beverley was handling the ball. Lin was not handling the ball much.

At the Lakers, I don't need to remind anyone that Kobe was chasing MJ's all time scoring list where the "ball handler" just carry the ball to half court to "assist" Kobe.

All in all, Lin had played out of position much of the last 3 years.

While Lin also played off the ball with the Rockets and Lakers, he did so much more while playing with Charlotte..on a larger scale.

Even with Harden, specially during the first year, Lin did facilitate a lot..On the second year with Houston, he came off the bench and was the main facilitator as the reserve PG.

Even with James and Beverly, Lin would at the very least, share ball-handling duty....With Walker, Lin did not share duty facilitating..Walker was the PG and always brought the ball up.

Also on the Lakers with Kobe and Clarkson...Lin was at best, part time PG alongside Kobe/Clarkson...It was not so with the Hornets..With Charlotte, whenever Kemba was on the floor, he was the main PG...Not only that, but Lin had relinquish PG duties to Batum on many occasion whenever Walker was on the bench...That diminished his time on the ball further.

Statistics does shows he clearly played a very large amount of minutes at SG with the Hornets in compare to with Houston/Lakers.

Stats don't lie..If you want to ignore them, fine..No one is saying Lin did not play off the ball with Lakers/Houston..What I'm saying is that he did it much more with Hornets..It's not even close.

You need to watch the game instead of relying on the stats sheet.

In Hornets, we both agreed he played a SG position.

For the Rockets, he was playing a camper role like the rest of the team. There was no ball movement with ISO Harden. If Harden cannot get a shot off early, he held it until it had like 3 to 4 seconds left and dish it off for an assist. Everyone just camp and wait. Harden's assist is overrated because of this. There is the reason why Barkley hated Harden's game.

As for Lakers, you probably forgot about the "Head of the Snake" Mr. Ronnie Price. You know, the tank commander's best man outside of Kobe? The last 2 seasons, the Lakers didn't do much beside tanking and gave Kobe all the shots he want. I was actually shock Kobe hung up the Jersey this season. I thought he was going for Kareem's record.

Yes, you are correct that he was play more at the PG position in both Lakers and Rockets, but the ball handling was with the SG, Kobe and Harden.

[TinmanZBoy]

I don't think Lin will ever shake off the "TO prone" reputation...because that's who he is as a player, that's how he plays...from his high school days, to college, to pro... you can check his TO ratios...he is an ultra aggressive player and you don't want to change that...you don't want a safer Lin to be on the court, which will totally mess up his game... for any team and coach, if they want an effective Lin, they have to live with his TOs....

[spaceballer]

Another tweeted pic from his workout with Spencer Hawes and Nick Collison. So he's making sure he gets his practice and workouts in even when he's in Seattle attending the DOTA thing.

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Some stuff from the DOTA event. It seems JLin has joined the ESPN E-Sports team. Some of these E-Sports players have larger twitter followings than NBA players. Some of these E-Sports players may even make more money than fringe NBA players, given the multi-million dollar prize money put up for some of these tournaments. It looks like they have a full arena. I'm more of a LoL guy than a DOTA 2 guy...who's Kaci Timbersaw and why do they have a reddit thread about her and JLin? She seems to be holding the mike interviewing Jeremy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/4x9pif/kaci_timbersaw_cosplay/

(edit: apparently her real name is Kaci Aitchison, a Fox news anchor who has a history of also hosting the The Internation tournament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaci_Aitchison)

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It seems Landry Fields might be at JLin's church event. I'm not religious, but is this church like a mega church or a particularly big deal? The twitter page header pic for the twitter account of the Seacoast Grace Church makes the stage at the front of the church look like a rock concert.

https://twitter.com/SCGChurch

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[reelsgm]

I don't think Lin will ever shake off the "TO prone" reputation...because that's who he is as a player, that's how he plays...from his high school days, to college, to pro... you can check his TO ratios...he is an ultra aggressive player and you don't want to change that...you don't want a safer Lin to be on the court, which will totally mess up his game... for any team and coach, if they want an effective Lin, they have to live with his TOs....

Those who wish to stick Lin with "negative" labels such as "turnover prone" are hilariously the same who :
a) loved to label him everything else which he's proven wrong, that he can't defend, can't go left, can't beat Miami, can't take over a game.
b) says he's too ultra aggressive, not aggressive enough; passes too much, doesn't pass enough; cracks under pressure, clutch in 4Q
c) never dreamed Lin would regain his starting PG role, because sure as the sun rises in the East he was nothing but a bench role player, forever...

Truth is any big PG like Lin, that takes it the defense has no substantive difference in TOs : Curry, Westbrook, Teague etc, etc...yet none of them are labeled.

Detractors detract and denigrators denigrate, one way is through labelling. Look up Labeling Theory as a way for a majority group to stigmatize a deviance from what's "normal" sociologically.

[Roy Tarpley]

Detractors detract and denigrators denigrate.

What, no "haters gonna hate"?!

Yeah, I predict Lin will average around 3 turnovers per game in ~34min/game as a starting PG this year, which will make him around league average. The turnover prone label is a non-issue. As is his "can't go left" or "no defense" issues.

Lin could average 19pts / 8 asts, which would make him a top 10 PG. Add this to the top 5 center Lopez, a potential top 10 defensive player in RHJ, and good role players like Booker and a 35 win season doesn't look so out of reach. I think a lot depends on Levert's development, we really need a two-way player on the wings.

[shakendfries]

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