GT: Spurs vs. Grizzlies

[Nolan]

Not sure if you guys noticed in the Nuggets game but Green had an open layup and passed in mid air to Parker in the corner, Pop grabbed his head ready to faint lol.

Poor Danny just doesn't know what to do when not shooting open threes.

He has gotten a lot better off the dribble this year though, he's actually been pretty decent at times or at least decent compared to past seasons. I don't always think turnover when he dribbles now.

[Nolan]

Ugly ugly game. Not a whole lot of positives to take away from this one but I'll try:

- Dedmon - He only scored two points but in my opinion he was our best player on the floor last night (he should of played more in the 4th). He did an unreal job of defending Marc and locking down the glass and the paint. He grabbed every board he could and forced the Grizzlies out of their comfort zone (the paint).

- Manu - If it wasn't for his little outburst in the 2nd this game might of been over a lot sooner. He was an effective scorer, played with energy on both ends and made some nice little plays on the defensive end.

- Team defense - The Grizzlies aren't exactly an juggernaut on the offensive end but we did a good job limiting Marc and keeping Conley away from the paint.

The bad, there was a lot of bad in this one:

- LMA - Pathetic performance, no other way to describe it really. He bricked open shot after open shot, was overwhelmed in the paint on both ends and just failed miserably to step up in Kawhi's absence if anything he stepped down.

- The offense - That 4th quarter was sad, really really sad.

[-Sammy-]

Ugly ugly game. Not a whole lot of positives to take away from this one but I'll try:

- Dedmon - He only scored two points but in my opinion he was our best player on the floor last night (he should of played more in the 4th). He did an unreal job of defending Marc and locking down the glass and the paint. He grabbed every board he could and forced the Grizzlies out of their comfort zone (the paint).

- Manu - If it wasn't for his little outburst in the 2nd this game might of been over a lot sooner. He was an effective scorer, played with energy on both ends and made some nice little plays on the defensive end.

- Team defense - The Grizzlies aren't exactly an juggernaut on the offensive end but we did a good job limiting Marc and keeping Conley away from the paint.

The bad, there was a lot of bad in this one:

- LMA - Pathetic performance, no other way to describe it really. He bricked open shot after open shot, was overwhelmed in the paint on both ends and just failed miserably to step up in Kawhi's absence if anything he stepped down.

- The offense - That 4th quarter was sad, really really sad.

I concur with your analysis. Coincidentally, I was arguing with someone on the GB MVP thread last night who was claiming that Leonard's importance to the Spurs is overblown and that LMA is the same 23-and-10 guy he was two years ago in Portland.

I wonder what he'd say after last night's Leonardless game.

[Nolan]

I concur with your analysis. Coincidentally, I was arguing with someone on the GB MVP thread last night who was claiming that Leonard's importance to the Spurs is overblown and that LMA is the same 23-and-10 guy he was two years ago in Portland.

I wonder what he'd say after last night's Leonardless game.

Yup. This is game was a prime example of Kawhi's importance. He covers up a lot of our flaws.

[inDe_eD]

Yup. This is game was a prime example of Kawhi's importance. He covers up a lot of our flaws.

I concur with your analysis. Coincidentally, I was arguing with someone on the GB MVP thread last night who was claiming that Leonard's importance to the Spurs is overblown and that LMA is the same 23-and-10 guy he was two years ago in Portland.

I wonder what he'd say after last night's Leonardless game.

Yea I saw that back and forth with Pepto Klepto. He's been touting raw on/off for MVP ranking all year, which is pretty ludicrous. I actually disagree with your take in that post Sammy, Kawhi has an argument, a very good one in fact, for MVP. PT-PM, which is about as advanced as you can get, has him neck and neck in the top 4 impact this year with KD, Chris Paul, and Curry:

http://fansided.com/2017/01/11/nylon-calculus-pt-pm-halfway-nba-season/


^ And those numbers are before Kawhi went on his maniacal 30 point scoring streak, so you have to imagine he's in the lead or close to it now. The other 3 guys on the list are going to have narrative issues, i.e. Chris Paul is going to miss a lot of time, there are two warriors, so split votes (Draymond is top 10 too btw). Last night's performance just cements in my mind that no player in the league is giving as much lift to his team as Kawhi is. We're a 40-45 win time without Kawhi and a 60-65 win team with him.

[-Sammy-]

Yup. This is game was a prime example of Kawhi's importance. He covers up a lot of our flaws.

I concur with your analysis. Coincidentally, I was arguing with someone on the GB MVP thread last night who was claiming that Leonard's importance to the Spurs is overblown and that LMA is the same 23-and-10 guy he was two years ago in Portland.

I wonder what he'd say after last night's Leonardless game.

Yea I saw that back and forth with Pepto Klepto. He's been touting raw on/off for MVP ranking all year, which is pretty ludicrous. I actually disagree with your take in that post Sammy, Kawhi has an argument, a very good one in fact, for MVP. PT-PM, which is about as advanced as you can get, has him neck and neck in the top 4 impact this year with KD, Chris Paul, and Curry:

http://fansided.com/2017/01/11/nylon-calculus-pt-pm-halfway-nba-season/


^ And those numbers are before Kawhi went on his maniacal 30 point scoring streak, so you have to imagine he's in the lead or close to it now. The other 3 guys on the list are going to have narrative issues, i.e. Chris Paul is going to miss a lot of time, there are two warriors, so split votes (Draymond is top 10 too btw). Last night's performance just cements in my mind that no player in the league is giving as much lift to his team as Kawhi is. We're a 40-45 win time without Kawhi and a 60-65 win team with him.

Fair enough, and good analysis! Yeah, my point in the discussion with PK was just that any stat, taken out-of-context, can be used to make an argument, but that if that argument contravenes sufficient obvious evidence to the contrary, the method for arriving at the conclusion should be questioned. Just as raw on/off can be used to argue that Kawhi's not a candidate, so too can PTPM be used to argue that he's the leading candidate, neither of which happens to be true in my opinion.

And that last bolded bit is the rub: there will never be an official formula for determining the MVP. If there were, there'd be no discussion; just plug in the numbers and give the trophy to the guy the formula spits back out. It will always come down to how each voter weighs the raw stats, the advanced stats, and intangibles like the 'eye test.' In the aggregate, it's all about balance when it comes to evaluating both data and arguments, but ultimately...

[SD2042]

Every time Parker has an ok game, Patty doesn't. When Parker has a bad game, Patty has an ok game.

Danny Green did his thing on both ends and I thought Bertans should have taken more shots but oh well

Lee was great. Dedmon did his thing, solid game from him and did not get into foul trouble. Manu was great tonight as well.


Kyle Anderson only cares to shoot when Kawhi is out, apparently.

Good points:

Parker and Patty NEVER seem to have good games together. Its either one or the other or neither.
Whenever Danny Green makes a shot I am honestly surprised. It shouldn't be this way.
Lee needs to play more but I understand why he doesn't. I'm still terrified he is going to get injured.
Dedmon played some decent defense. Much better than Aldridge.
I'm really down on Anderson and I get depressed when he checks into the game.

I been meaning to ask about Anderson. What has been his issues in terms of improving his game? I remember when he first came into the league, I compared him to a a mediocre Evan Turner as he plays all over the place. Like a Jack of All Trades/Utility Player type of player. It seems like for whatever the reason he hasn't shown signs of finding his niche as of yet.

[Phreak50]

It's because he doesn't look to score and when he does it ain't pretty.

I don't think I've seen a young Spurs player improve so little over the years.

[inDe_eD]

Yup. This is game was a prime example of Kawhi's importance. He covers up a lot of our flaws.

I concur with your analysis. Coincidentally, I was arguing with someone on the GB MVP thread last night who was claiming that Leonard's importance to the Spurs is overblown and that LMA is the same 23-and-10 guy he was two years ago in Portland.

I wonder what he'd say after last night's Leonardless game.

Yea I saw that back and forth with Pepto Klepto. He's been touting raw on/off for MVP ranking all year, which is pretty ludicrous. I actually disagree with your take in that post Sammy, Kawhi has an argument, a very good one in fact, for MVP. PT-PM, which is about as advanced as you can get, has him neck and neck in the top 4 impact this year with KD, Chris Paul, and Curry:

http://fansided.com/2017/01/11/nylon-calculus-pt-pm-halfway-nba-season/


^ And those numbers are before Kawhi went on his maniacal 30 point scoring streak, so you have to imagine he's in the lead or close to it now. The other 3 guys on the list are going to have narrative issues, i.e. Chris Paul is going to miss a lot of time, there are two warriors, so split votes (Draymond is top 10 too btw). Last night's performance just cements in my mind that no player in the league is giving as much lift to his team as Kawhi is. We're a 40-45 win time without Kawhi and a 60-65 win team with him.

Fair enough, and good analysis! Yeah, my point in the discussion with PK was just that any stat, taken out-of-context, can be used to make an argument, but that if that argument contravenes sufficient obvious evidence to the contrary, the method for arriving at the conclusion should be questioned. Just as raw on/off can be used to argue that Kawhi's not a candidate, so too can PTPM be used to argue that he's the leading candidate, neither of which happens to be true in my opinion.

And that last bolded bit is the rub: there will never be an official formula for determining the MVP. If there were, there'd be no discussion; just plug in the numbers and give the trophy to the guy the formula spits back out. It will always come down to how each voter weighs the raw stats, the advanced stats, and intangibles like the 'eye test.' In the aggregate, it's all about balance when it comes to evaluating both data and arguments, but ultimately...

You're definitely right about balance and personal opinion being the determining factor.

I do think, outside of my personal opinion, and if we had fairly objective voters, Kawhi would be the MVP right now. He checks every single box: narrative, production, impact, you name it. It may sound blasphemous to some, but his season is nearing Jordan-level numbers, and I hate to see it hushed as away as just the Spurs doing their thing.

[SD2042]

It's because he doesn't look to score and when he does it ain't pretty.

I don't think I've seen a young Spurs player improve so little over the years.

Sounds like a potential divorce is imminent with KA.

[inDe_eD]

It's because he doesn't look to score and when he does it ain't pretty.

I don't think I've seen a young Spurs player improve so little over the years.

Sounds like a potential divorce is imminent with KA.

I think he's going to age really well and eventually transition to being a full-time 4. We've still got time and his rookie contract is pretty nice for the next two years. I kind of doubt that we move him now with the development of Murray, as we likely won't go chasing after a PG this off season now.

[Nolan]

It's because he doesn't look to score and when he does it ain't pretty.

I don't think I've seen a young Spurs player improve so little over the years.

Sounds like a potential divorce is imminent with KA.

I think he's going to age really well and eventually transition to being a full-time 4. We've still got time and his rookie contract is pretty nice for the next two years. I kind of doubt that we move him now with the development of Murray, as we likely won't go chasing after a PG this off season now.

Like you I still have a positive opinion of him. Dude is very very capable of becoming a really good role player, he just needs more confidence in his shot and his ability to just score in general. He's an excellent defender, one or best in my opinion and he understands the game at a high level.

[inDe_eD]

Sounds like a potential divorce is imminent with KA.

I think he's going to age really well and eventually transition to being a full-time 4. We've still got time and his rookie contract is pretty nice for the next two years. I kind of doubt that we move him now with the development of Murray, as we likely won't go chasing after a PG this off season now.

Like you I still have a positive opinion of him. Dude is very very capable of becoming a really good role player, he just needs more confidence in his shot and his ability to just score in general. He's an excellent defender, one or best in my opinion and he understands the game at a high level.

He really does defend quite well. In fact, he's so good he even shuts down Kawhi's on/off numbers.

But really, it's not like he can't shoot, he passes willingly and well, he's got good size, etc. He'll put it all together and have some Boris Diaw-esque seasons eventually I think.