2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[The-Power]

That coupled with how much OKC falls apart without Westbrook - he's AT LEAST dead even with Harden for MVP.

Funny how that line of thinking didn't help Harden when he lead his team to 2nd in the West with an even worse team.

Actually Curry's on/off net rating - basically the measure everybody talks about when saying 'team x falls apart without player y' - has been much higher than Harden's back in 2015 (+17.8 to +8.8). The Warriors' net rating with Curry was +16.6 and without him -1.2 while the Rockets' net rating wit Harden was +5.8 and -3.0 without him. It's not the be-all and end-all argument per se and other factors must be included but in the context of which team fell apart more with a given player on the bench your insinuation that Harden deserved it over Curry based on the argument in the post you quoted is objectively false (well, let's say unfounded).

Now, I don't want to re-do the 2015 MVP discussion so I'll leave it at that. This thread is about the 2017 MVP and if we're talking about realistic winners based on past voting behavior then this thread is about Harden, Westbrook and perhaps Kawhi with an outside shot.

[MrBigShot]

It's going to be a huge shame that one of Westbrook and Harden wont win MVP. The things those two are doing this season is unreal, making the extraordinary seem ordinary.

[ocelot17]

It's going to be a huge shame that one of Westbrook and Harden wont win MVP. The things those two are doing this season is unreal, making the extraordinary seem ordinary.

Harden is averaging 29 points, 11 assists, 8 rebounds. Only two rebounds shy of a triple double. Plus rockets have the third best record in the league.

I think it's a travesty if Westbrook wins because he's averaging only 2 more rebounds.

[Edrees]

Harden is the favorite and Kawhi and Westbrook have outside chances, nobody else is in the conversation at this point.

Kawhi has no chance. His shot ended tonight, with the Spurs finishing 2nd in the west this year.

Spurs can mathematically still get 1st seed, which is why I said he has an outside chance. Never said it was likely. It's just that everyone else has 0% chance.

[relinquishy]

It's going to be a huge shame that one of Westbrook and Harden wont win MVP. The things those two are doing this season is unreal, making the extraordinary seem ordinary.

Harden is averaging 29 points, 11 assists, 8 rebounds. Only two rebounds shy of a triple double. Plus rockets have the third best record in the league.

I think it's a travesty if Westbrook wins because he's averaging only 2 more rebounds.

He's also doing more with less, and isn't playing in a system that capitalizes on his strengths like Harden is. Westbrook IS his team's system. Also, he's averaging almost 3 ppg more in fewer minutes per game, and also averaging fewer turnovers. The only knock on WB is that his shooting %s are a slight bit lower, and that his team hasn't won as many games.

[Impuniti]

It's going to be a huge shame that one of Westbrook and Harden wont win MVP. The things those two are doing this season is unreal, making the extraordinary seem ordinary.

Harden is averaging 29 points, 11 assists, 8 rebounds. Only two rebounds shy of a triple double. Plus rockets have the third best record in the league.

I think it's a travesty if Westbrook wins because he's averaging only 2 more rebounds.

He's also doing more with less, and isn't playing in a system that capitalizes on his strengths like Harden is. Westbrook IS his team's system. Also, he's averaging almost 3 ppg more in fewer minutes per game, and also averaging fewer turnovers. The only knock on WB is that his shooting %s are a slight bit lower, and that his team hasn't won as many games.

Where is this revisionist history coming from? Noone had the Rockets high up the table before the season, and the bookies even had OKC 1-2 spots ahead of the Rockets before as well. I must be living in bizarro world because I don't remember people talking up the Rockets this season at all until they started getting results.

[ocelot17]

It's going to be a huge shame that one of Westbrook and Harden wont win MVP. The things those two are doing this season is unreal, making the extraordinary seem ordinary.

Harden is averaging 29 points, 11 assists, 8 rebounds. Only two rebounds shy of a triple double. Plus rockets have the third best record in the league.

I think it's a travesty if Westbrook wins because he's averaging only 2 more rebounds.

He's also doing more with less, and isn't playing in a system that capitalizes on his strengths like Harden is. Westbrook IS his team's system. Also, he's averaging almost 3 ppg more in fewer minutes per game, and also averaging fewer turnovers. The only knock on WB is that his shooting %s are a slight bit lower, and that his team hasn't won as many games.

1. Harden is the only player to in NBA history to be accused of having too much help while playing with zero career all stars/all NBA players.

No one held that against curry when he won 2 MVPs with all stars Thompson, green.

What about lebron when he had wade and bosh. Or when Durant won the MVP with Westbrook as his teammate.

But NOW Harden has too much help, how convenient....

2. Harden is not playing in a system. He IS the system.

3. Westbrook is averaging more points but also taking 6 more shots, while being less efficient. Also, he's second in turnovers behind harden.

Not to mention he's padding his rebounding stats.

[Bergmaniac]

It's not that complicated. Harden doesn't have that much help, but still more than Westbrook. And Harden's teammates fir his style much better. OKC is one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league even though an elite slasher/passer like Westbrook needs shooters above all. D'Antoni is also a way better coach than the dumbass Donovan who hasn't establish a regular rotation all season and keeps using idiotic lineups.

Whether that's enough to convince you that Westbrook deserves the award more is up to everyone to decide, but let's not pretend that the only reason Westbrook has a case are the infamous "two rebounds more".

[pipfan]

As a fan who likes WB, loves Leonard and hates Harden/LBJ-I think this race is really clear
1-Harden
2-WB

3-Leonard

4-LBJ

I just don't see any other outcome, baring last minute shifts

[ocelot17]

It's not that complicated. Harden doesn't have that much help, but still more than Westbrook. And Harden's teammates fir his style much better. OKC is one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league even though an elite slasher/passer like Westbrook needs shooters above all. D'Antoni is also a way better coach than the dumbass Donovan who hasn't establish a regular rotation all season and keeps using idiotic lineups.

Whether that's enough to convince you that Westbrook deserves the award more is up to everyone to decide, but let's not pretend that the only reason Westbrook has a case are the infamous "two rebounds more".

Was curry ever accused of having too much help and having one of the best coaches in the league in Steve Kerr?

Was Tim Duncan, Leonard accused of having too much help or for having poppovich as a head coach?

Did Kobe have too much help for having gasol, Bynum, Odom, Phil Jackson?

Did lebron have too much help when he had wade, bosh, spoelstra? Or love and Irving?

[tarantism]

I think its interesting that we could possibly be looking at a year where nobody in the top 4 of MVP voting makes the finals...

[The-Power]

Was curry ever accused of having too much help and having one of the best coaches in the league in Steve Kerr?

Yes. http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=42649111#p42649111

[Bergmaniac]

It's not that complicated. Harden doesn't have that much help, but still more than Westbrook. And Harden's teammates fir his style much better. OKC is one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league even though an elite slasher/passer like Westbrook needs shooters above all. D'Antoni is also a way better coach than the dumbass Donovan who hasn't establish a regular rotation all season and keeps using idiotic lineups.

Whether that's enough to convince you that Westbrook deserves the award more is up to everyone to decide, but let's not pretend that the only reason Westbrook has a case are the infamous "two rebounds more".

Was curry ever accused of having too much help and having one of the best coaches in the league in Steve Kerr?

Was Tim Duncan, Leonard accused of having too much help or for having poppovich as a head coach?

Yes. It's not some conspiracy against harden and the Rockets. It's a common argument used pretty much every year when there isn't a clear cut MVP favourite.

[ocelot17]

Was curry ever accused of having too much help and having one of the best coaches in the league in Steve Kerr?

Yes. http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=42649111#p42649111

Exactly. You're making my point for me. Didn't stop the media for voting for curry, even though he had more help.

Now they're using that same argument against harden.

[The-Power]

Was curry ever accused of having too much help and having one of the best coaches in the league in Steve Kerr?

Yes. http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=42649111#p42649111

Exactly. You're making my point for me. Didn't stop the media for voting for curry, even though he had more help.

Now they're using that same argument against harden.

Whose 'they'? The media members have yet to vote and the posters you quote are just doing what you did back then. You really are in no position to call them out on it.

You shouldn't complain about an argument that you did use yourself. So you can use it and it's a fine argument but others aren't allowed to use it because it has been ignored in the past? That's hypocrisy at its finest. So basically you don't care about your own views as long as your guy wins. Got it.

[ocelot17]

Yes. http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=42649111#p42649111

Exactly. You're making my point for me. Didn't stop the media for voting for curry, even though he had more help.

Now they're using that same argument against harden.

Whose 'they'? The media members have yet to vote and the posters you quote are just doing what you did back then. You really are in no position to call them out on it.

You shouldn't complain about an argument that you did use yourself. So you can use it and it's a fine argument but others aren't allowed to use it because it has been ignored in the past? That's hypocrisy at its finest. So basically you don't care about your own views as long as your guy wins. Got it.

Consistency. Media has always voted based on individual stats and team record.

I felt harden should've won it two years ago because he did more with less. Media awarded curry the MVP because he was the best player on the best team, which is fine.

Hypocrisy is voting based on team record one year, and then flip flopping the next year.

It's like "damned if you do, damned if you don't.

All I want to see is consistency.

[QPR]

1. Harden is the only player to in NBA history to be accused of having too much help while playing with zero career all stars/all NBA players.

People really need to stop looking at rosters individually. Houston's roster is perfect for a D'Antoni offense because it is full of players who space the floor and can shoot the lights out.

Obviously Harden is the central piece, the same way Nash was.

OKC's roster is a complete mish-mash of parts that don't really fit with each other, and collapses when Westbrook sits. That they are only two losses back of the 4th seed is amazing.

[Fico92]

Exactly. You're making my point for me. Didn't stop the media for voting for curry, even though he had more help.

Now they're using that same argument against harden.

Whose 'they'? The media members have yet to vote and the posters you quote are just doing what you did back then. You really are in no position to call them out on it.

You shouldn't complain about an argument that you did use yourself. So you can use it and it's a fine argument but others aren't allowed to use it because it has been ignored in the past? That's hypocrisy at its finest. So basically you don't care about your own views as long as your guy wins. Got it.

Consistency. Media has always voted based on individual stats and team record.

I felt harden should've won it two years ago because he did more with less. Media awarded curry the MVP because he was the best player on the best team, which is fine.

Hypocrisy is voting based on team record one year, and then flip flopping the next year.

It's like "damned if you do, damned if you don't.

All I want to see is consistency.

If you want consistency, then Curry or Durant should win it this year considering the MASSIVE difference in wins the Warriors will have over the Rockets.

[Patches Perry]

I hope that whoever wins between Harden and Westbrook, people can recognize that it is no injustice. Both deserve it about equally. It is one thing to favor one over the other, its another to not acknowledge that it's a tossup basically. Very debatable.

[michaelm]

1. Harden is the only player to in NBA history to be accused of having too much help while playing with zero career all stars/all NBA players.

People really need to stop looking at rosters individually. Houston's roster is perfect for a D'Antoni offense because it is full of players who space the floor and can shoot the lights out.

Obviously Harden is the central piece, the same way Nash was.

OKC's roster is a complete mish-mash of parts that don't really fit with each other, and collapses when Westbrook sits. That they are only two losses back of the 4th seed is amazing.

Sure, and absolutely no-one could complain about a guy who averages a triple double being awarded as the MVP, particularly after his most recent game which seems to have been enough to convince even Stephen A Smith.

It is a team game though, and Harden has taken his team to better results thus far, and as I and other posters have noted I don't think Houston were rated as having the superior roster pre-season. I am not sure D'Antoni now looking to be the superior coach or OKC now looking not to have players suited to being a supporting cast for Westbrook comes into it, even apart from whether Harden is easier to coach or easier to surround with suitable players, ya pays ya money and ya takes ya choice as you guys say.