Your Unpopular Basketball Opinions? [PC Board Edition]

[Texas Chuck]

6. LOVE-MAKING LIST: I have a list of all 20,500+ times my baby and I have made love over the last 30.5 years.

That figure seems really high over that time span. That's almost 2x a day! Every day. For 30 years!

I'm starting to wonder if you are that guy from the beer ads: the most interesting man in the world.

[Quotatious]

Also congrats you've "made more love" in one day than me in 16 years lol

I love your sense of humor. Please never change, dude.

[MyUniBroDavis]

6. LOVE-MAKING LIST: I have a list of all 20,500+ times my baby and I have made love over the last 30.5 years.

That figure seems really high over that time span. That's almost 2x a day! Every day. For 30 years!

I'm starting to wonder if you are that guy from the beer ads: the most interesting man in the world.

As a Chinese person there's a reason he does it so much

So you know the concept of yin and yang right, balance and crap

in the scale he does it so much so the outlier effect of me on one end and him on he other end balance out

also just to add i know nothing about chinese culture other than getting money because they want to use a different new year and needing to get A+ to stay in the family and idk if fhats like offensive to buddhists or taoists so like sorry if i offend anyone lol

[Prokorov]

Hakeem not a top 10 center and one of the most over rated players in league history

Steve nash over rated and not the player payton or jason kidd were

[MyUniBroDavis]

Also congrats you've "made more love" in one day than me in 16 years lol

I love your sense of humor. Please never change, dude.

I feel like I've posted in the off topic thread a lot just to have convos with pockycandy about our interesting lives lol.

[Clyde Frazier]

Personally I think it's far easier to make a convincing case for someone other than Jordan in the NBA (Kareem and Russell have an excellent case, LeBron will soon have one, too - but especially KAJ at the moment), than a convincing case for someone other than Gretzky in the NHL - Gretzky was almost like a combination of Wilt's statistical dominance with Jordan's accolades and team success.

With seeing some kareem discussion the last page or 2, I really don’t think it’s an unpopular opinion to think he has a case for GOAT. I personally think he’s the only other one than jordan who has a real case. He has the whole package: peak, longevity, success, accolades, etc. I guess the only knocks on him might be questioning the strength of the 70s, and winning some of his championships as a secondary star. That said, it’s still pretty hard to argue with his overall resume.

I’m aware of the russell supporters, but think he falls short overall. Will probably end up somewhere in my top 5 when we do the next top 100 project. LeBron obviously keeps moving further up the list as his absurd durability and longevity continue. Just don’t think he’s quite there yet.

[Johnlac1]

6-10: Wilt, Dr J, Kobe, O, K.Malone

Nice to see someone who ranks Karl Malone in top 10. He was one of those players I despised when he was active (because he was dirty on the court and did some shameful things off the court), but looking back at his career, I have the utmost respect for what he did, championship or not. He was just so good for so long.

In general, I really like the fact that your top 15 isn't skewed in favor of any particular generation, even though old timers like yourself usually tend to overrate players from the 60s. Well done in this regard.

I find it very surprising that you don't have Russell in your top 15, though.

Thanx for the compliments.

Thru no fault of my own (other than "choosing" my parents), I was born "half-calculator / half-boy" - and have been making rankings lists since I could count. In a super-intolerant age, my dad was super-tolerant and that rubbed off on me. So, I'm always TRYING (who's to say how well I succeed) to ensure that I fight MY OWN would-be biases.

The first PRACTICAL key event for me was the arrival of Wilt on the pro b-ball scene. Everyone, without exception, "KNEW" that Mikan was and would always be the GOAT - his career was that much greater than all before him. Yet after a year with the Globetrotters and less than a year in the NBA, it was undeniable that Wilt was WAY the bleep better than Mr. Basketball.

And this rocked my little world - everybody had been so sure; it seemed so obvious. But it turned out not only false; but that particular myth didn't last all that long. THAT lesson stuck with me ever since - and I believe I've been extra-careful to be as fair as possible in "all directions": be they team-wise, nationality, position, League, decade etc.

As a practical matter, the player's ranking that most goes against my gut-instinct is Elgin Baylor. I loved that guy (he "invented" hang-time). Most of my All-Time Favorite One-Play Highlights involve Dr J; but my #1 is a time when Elgin went flying sideways across the key for a dunk - only to face Wilt ... Elgin flipped the ball to his other hand and still dunked over him.

But I can't put all of: Wilt, West, O, Elgin and Russell at the very top of my GOAT list.

So, I approach my GOAT list, position by position and draw up a GOAT list for each position FIRST; based principally on each's number of "Great Years" as defined by selections to the All-League 1st-Teams or 2nd-Teams. On MY GOAT list, this results in Wilt being GOAT #2 Center; O being GOAT #2 PG; Jerry West being GOAT #3 SG; Elgin being GOAT #4 SF; and Russell being GOAT #5. (Thus the 60's get 5 players in my GOAT Top 25).

Specifically, Karl Malone had ELEVEN All-League 1st-Team selections (only Kobe and, in a few days, LeBron match that). This TEMPORARILY, vis-à-vis my GOAT list puts Karl as #1 PF; ahead of TD. BUT, while compared to TD, Karl had one more 1st-Team selection; TD had one more 2nd-Team selection - meaning the difference is tiny. Then other factors come into play for me - and I think TD has just enough advantage over Karl in the Post-Season to nudge ahead of him.

In terms of Bill Russell, his is easily THE most difficult ranking for me - because how can one argue against 11 Rings in 13 seasons? Still, they play (especially back then) only a small fraction as many P-O games as they do Reg. Season games; and THAT team was THE All-Star team of All-Time (having a higher percentage of all the League's best players compared to any other team in history - with Mikan's Lakers and the current Dubs as probably distant 2nd and 3rd in some order). Those C's BARELY won MANY of their P-O games and series AND, IMO, it was Red Auerbach who was the difference maker - he was FAR superior the coach (and GM) to anybody else during that era - EASILY worth 3 points a game! Further, in my entire GOAT Top 50, only Mikan is, imo, LESS-"TRANSFERABLE"; meaning, due to his insufficiencies on offense, Russell would have been a super-Rodman, a defensively-dominant player in any subsequent decade - but ranking lowest amongst the All-Time Greats of THAT decade.

Another thing, I believe that if Russell and Wilt were switched, Wilt's Celtics would have won at least 10 Chips and Russell's "new" teams would have won less Chips than they did with Wilt on them.

Further, there's no objective way I can rank Russell over Wilt. In years they both played, Wilt beat Russell in 1st-Team selections 7-2 - that's huge! So, given that Russell was "only" the 2nd-best Center in his own decade; I can't rank him any higher than 5th-best Center (behind: KAJ, Wilt, Shaq & barely Hakeem) or 21st on my GOAT list.

Undoubtedly this is my most controversial player-ranking in my entire GOAT Top 50 - but those are my reasons. I place less emphasis on (individual) success in the Post-Season than any other GOAT-list maker I'm aware of.

Real nice post. Auerbach doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves for making and keeping the Celtics near or that the top almost all of his long career as coach/GM or GM.
He wasn't a great Xs and Os kind of coach, but he was like Vince Lombardi....he had a great, simple system based on tough defense and unselfish offense. He not only knew how to build a great team, he knew how to acquire the players to keep the system going.
When the Russell/Cousy/Heinsohn era was fading, he had the Russell/Havlicek/Sam Jones triad. When that faded after Russell's retirement he had the Havlicek/Cowens/ Jo Jo White trio.
When that faded he had the Bird/Parish/McHale trio.
He knew how to win, and he knew how to get the players to win. And he was a smarter game coach than all the other coaches tactics-wise. That's all there is.

[Xherdan 23]

6-10: Wilt, Dr J, Kobe, O, K.Malone

Nice to see someone who ranks Karl Malone in top 10. He was one of those players I despised when he was active (because he was dirty on the court and did some shameful things off the court), but looking back at his career, I have the utmost respect for what he did, championship or not. He was just so good for so long.

In general, I really like the fact that your top 15 isn't skewed in favor of any particular generation, even though old timers like yourself usually tend to overrate players from the 60s. Well done in this regard.

I find it very surprising that you don't have Russell in your top 15, though.

Thanx for the compliments.

Thru no fault of my own (other than "choosing" my parents), I was born "half-calculator / half-boy" - and have been making rankings lists since I could count. In a super-intolerant age, my dad was super-tolerant and that rubbed off on me. So, I'm always TRYING (who's to say how well I succeed) to ensure that I fight MY OWN would-be biases.

The first PRACTICAL key event for me was the arrival of Wilt on the pro b-ball scene. Everyone, without exception, "KNEW" that Mikan was and would always be the GOAT - his career was that much greater than all before him. Yet after a year with the Globetrotters and less than a year in the NBA, it was undeniable that Wilt was WAY the bleep better than Mr. Basketball.

And this rocked my little world - everybody had been so sure; it seemed so obvious. But it turned out not only false; but that particular myth didn't last all that long. THAT lesson stuck with me ever since - and I believe I've been extra-careful to be as fair as possible in "all directions": be they team-wise, nationality, position, League, decade etc.

As a practical matter, the player's ranking that most goes against my gut-instinct is Elgin Baylor. I loved that guy (he "invented" hang-time). Most of my All-Time Favorite One-Play Highlights involve Dr J; but my #1 is a time when Elgin went flying sideways across the key for a dunk - only to face Wilt ... Elgin flipped the ball to his other hand and still dunked over him.

But I can't put all of: Wilt, West, O, Elgin and Russell at the very top of my GOAT list.

So, I approach my GOAT list, position by position and draw up a GOAT list for each position FIRST; based principally on each's number of "Great Years" as defined by selections to the All-League 1st-Teams or 2nd-Teams. On MY GOAT list, this results in Wilt being GOAT #2 Center; O being GOAT #2 PG; Jerry West being GOAT #3 SG; Elgin being GOAT #4 SF; and Russell being GOAT #5. (Thus the 60's get 5 players in my GOAT Top 25).

Specifically, Karl Malone had ELEVEN All-League 1st-Team selections (only Kobe and, in a few days, LeBron match that). This TEMPORARILY, vis-à-vis my GOAT list puts Karl as #1 PF; ahead of TD. BUT, while compared to TD, Karl had one more 1st-Team selection; TD had one more 2nd-Team selection - meaning the difference is tiny. Then other factors come into play for me - and I think TD has just enough advantage over Karl in the Post-Season to nudge ahead of him.

In terms of Bill Russell, his is easily THE most difficult ranking for me - because how can one argue against 11 Rings in 13 seasons? Still, they play (especially back then) only a small fraction as many P-O games as they do Reg. Season games; and THAT team was THE All-Star team of All-Time (having a higher percentage of all the League's best players compared to any other team in history - with Mikan's Lakers and the current Dubs as probably distant 2nd and 3rd in some order). Those C's BARELY won MANY of their P-O games and series AND, IMO, it was Red Auerbach who was the difference maker - he was FAR superior the coach (and GM) to anybody else during that era - EASILY worth 3 points a game! Further, in my entire GOAT Top 50, only Mikan is, imo, LESS-"TRANSFERABLE"; meaning, due to his insufficiencies on offense, Russell would have been a super-Rodman, a defensively-dominant player in any subsequent decade - but ranking lowest amongst the All-Time Greats of THAT decade.

Another thing, I believe that if Russell and Wilt were switched, Wilt's Celtics would have won at least 10 Chips and Russell's "new" teams would have won less Chips than they did with Wilt on them.

Further, there's no objective way I can rank Russell over Wilt. In years they both played, Wilt beat Russell in 1st-Team selections 7-2 - that's huge! So, given that Russell was "only" the 2nd-best Center in his own decade; I can't rank him any higher than 5th-best Center (behind: KAJ, Wilt, Shaq & barely Hakeem) or 21st on my GOAT list.

Undoubtedly this is my most controversial player-ranking in my entire GOAT Top 50 - but those are my reasons. I place less emphasis on (individual) success in the Post-Season than any other GOAT-list maker I'm aware of.

Please post more!

I love that non-biased thinking and you very balanced conclusions, especially since I struggle to stay objective myself (mostly in terms of eras).

My father is exactly your age but his thinking is a lot different than yours, he still thinks Wilt is the GOAT and Jordan is a young flashy punk with no fundamentals

[Quotatious]

Hakeem not a top 10 center and one of the most over rated players in league history

Hakeem not a top 10 CENTER? I could see a case for him not being a top 10 PLAYER, but I would LOVE to see 10 centers who were better than Hakeem.

I think it's more absurd than unpopular, to be honest (and I don't want to be disrespectful, but I just can't find another way to put it).

[Texas Chuck]

Personally I think it's far easier to make a convincing case for someone other than Jordan in the NBA (Kareem and Russell have an excellent case, LeBron will soon have one, too - but especially KAJ at the moment), than a convincing case for someone other than Gretzky in the NHL - Gretzky was almost like a combination of Wilt's statistical dominance with Jordan's accolades and team success.

With seeing some kareem discussion the last page or 2, I really don’t think it’s an unpopular opinion to think he has a case for GOAT. I personally think he’s the only other one than jordan who has a real case. He has the whole package: peak, longevity, success, accolades, etc. I guess the only knocks on him might be questioning the strength of the 70s, and winning some of his championships as a secondary star. That said, it’s still pretty hard to argue with his overall resume.

I’m aware of the russell supporters, but think he falls short overall. Will probably end up somewhere in my top 5 when we do the next top 100 project. LeBron obviously keeps moving further up the list as his absurd durability and longevity continue. Just don’t think he’s quite there yet.

I'm one of the guys voting for Nader (Russell).

But personally I believe there are 5 players who are worthy of consideration for GOAT:

Russell
Jordan
Kareem
Timmy
Lebron


And yes I realize that (at least to the best of my knowledge) I was the first--and only-- person here to suggest Duncan as a legit GOAT candidate, but when I posted an OP asking the question, it wasn't totally laughed off.

[Prokorov]

Hakeem not a top 10 center and one of the most over rated players in league history

Hakeem not a top 10 CENTER? I could see a case for him not being a top 10 PLAYER, but I would LOVE to see 10 centers who were better than Hakeem.

I think it's more absurd than unpopular, to be honest (and I don't want to be disrespectful, but I just can't find another way to put it).

i just always thought he was an empty stats guy carried by elite role/clutch players. i mean all-star, but i dont think he was any better then say alonzo mourining.

[Quotatious]

i just always thought he was an empty stats guy carried by elite role/clutch players. i mean all-star, but i dont think he was any better then say alonzo mourining.

I couldn't disagree more with this description of Hakeem. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Prokorov]

i just always thought he was an empty stats guy carried by elite role/clutch players. i mean all-star, but i dont think he was any better then say alonzo mourining.

I couldn't disagree more with this description of Hakeem. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

well, thats why its in the unpopular thread. most disagree

[Johnlac1]

6-10: Wilt, Dr J, Kobe, O, K.Malone

Nice to see someone who ranks Karl Malone in top 10. He was one of those players I despised when he was active (because he was dirty on the court and did some shameful things off the court), but looking back at his career, I have the utmost respect for what he did, championship or not. He was just so good for so long.

In general, I really like the fact that your top 15 isn't skewed in favor of any particular generation, even though old timers like yourself usually tend to overrate players from the 60s. Well done in this regard.

I find it very surprising that you don't have Russell in your top 15, though.

I have ALWAYS had the utmost respect for the Big O - as a player, player's rep and as a person. BUT, in the recent past, he's been asked about his "GOAT" list and he, imo, over-rates his era and under-rates the others. This DISAPPOINTED me so much - I thought he was better than that.

But WHO is the All-Time Great who does NOT over-value his own decade?

P.S. Do you have any idea how hard it is (at least for me!) to get used to being and being called an "old-timer"???? lol! I still spend 2.5 hours every day on my exercycle (with heavy-duty wrist-weights on my .... wrists (SURPRISE!)) and still make love with my ever-loving, never-saying-"no", gorgeous wife everyday - and, frankly, I go through life still feeling like a kid in a candy store - but things are starting to break down, little by little, more and more. Can't read without glasses and can't read WITH glasses all the small type on food cans etc. (SUCKS!) What small amount of visible muscle mass I had - gone (and I DO look for it at times!). Hair on my head? - none of your business! Sleep problems - in spades. Memory loss ...
what was that last point?

And, each year, my posts seem to get longer and longer. WTF?

Mick Jagger said it best, "What a drag it is getting old!" (stfu Mick!)

As someone who was born the same year you were, 1949, I've been a huge NBA fan since the sixties. I actually watched some NBA games in the early sixties when they were on NBC for a season or two.
And although the players from that era are my all-time favorite players, there's no doubt that the average player of today is superior to the player of that time.
But that doesn't mean the average players were awful. There's less difference in athleticism than many modern fans believe. And as long as you have players like Pachulia starting at center for the best team in the league, if I were a young fan I would be careful about criticizing the athletes of the past. Zaza would just be an average center fifty years ago.
And I still think some of the players from that era are the all-time best at their positions. I still think Wilt is the best all time center, and I think Oscar is the best pg ever.

[Jim Naismith]

Hakeem not a top 10 center and one of the most over rated players in league history

Hakeem not a top 10 CENTER? I could see a case for him not being a top 10 PLAYER, but I would LOVE to see 10 centers who were better than Hakeem.

I think it's more absurd than unpopular, to be honest (and I don't want to be disrespectful, but I just can't find another way to put it).

i just always thought he was an empty stats guy carried by elite role/clutch players. i mean all-star, but i dont think he was any better then say alonzo mourining.

Name these 10 centers you say are better than Hakeem.

Or forever hold your peace.

[Prokorov]

Hakeem not a top 10 CENTER? I could see a case for him not being a top 10 PLAYER, but I would LOVE to see 10 centers who were better than Hakeem.

I think it's more absurd than unpopular, to be honest (and I don't want to be disrespectful, but I just can't find another way to put it).

i just always thought he was an empty stats guy carried by elite role/clutch players. i mean all-star, but i dont think he was any better then say alonzo mourining.

Name these 10 centers you say are better than Hakeem.

Or forever hold your peace.

KAJ, Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Duncan, Moses, Mikan, Gilmore, Sabonis(nba and overseas),Walton

I'd have Hakeem, Robinson next.

[MyUniBroDavis]

i just always thought he was an empty stats guy carried by elite role/clutch players. i mean all-star, but i dont think he was any better then say alonzo mourining.

Name these 10 centers you say are better than Hakeem.

Or forever hold your peace.

KAJ, Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Duncan, Moses, Mikan, Gilmore, Sabonis(nba and overseas),Walton

I'd have Hakeem, Robinson next.

Imo Walton has no arguement over Hakeem all Time. Like at all (i mean imo that applies for. A bunch of them but just the games played)

1238 career games vs 468 games

[Prokorov]

Name these 10 centers you say are better than Hakeem.

Or forever hold your peace.

KAJ, Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Duncan, Moses, Mikan, Gilmore, Sabonis(nba and overseas),Walton

I'd have Hakeem, Robinson next.

Imo Walton has no arguement over Hakeem all Time. Like at all (i mean imo that applies for. A bunch of them but just the games played)

1238 career games vs 468 games

i get longevity, but walton was like 4 times the player.

[Pablo Novi]

Nice to see someone who ranks Karl Malone in top 10. He was one of those players I despised when he was active (because he was dirty on the court and did some shameful things off the court), but looking back at his career, I have the utmost respect for what he did, championship or not. He was just so good for so long.

In general, I really like the fact that your top 15 isn't skewed in favor of any particular generation, even though old timers like yourself usually tend to overrate players from the 60s. Well done in this regard.

I find it very surprising that you don't have Russell in your top 15, though.

Thanx for the compliments.

Thru no fault of my own (other than "choosing" my parents), I was born "half-calculator / half-boy" - and have been making rankings lists since I could count. In a super-intolerant age, my dad was super-tolerant and that rubbed off on me. So, I'm always TRYING (who's to say how well I succeed) to ensure that I fight MY OWN would-be biases.

The first PRACTICAL key event for me was the arrival of Wilt on the pro b-ball scene. Everyone, without exception, "KNEW" that Mikan was and would always be the GOAT - his career was that much greater than all before him. Yet after a year with the Globetrotters and less than a year in the NBA, it was undeniable that Wilt was WAY the bleep better than Mr. Basketball.

And this rocked my little world - everybody had been so sure; it seemed so obvious. But it turned out not only false; but that particular myth didn't last all that long. THAT lesson stuck with me ever since - and I believe I've been extra-careful to be as fair as possible in "all directions": be they team-wise, nationality, position, League, decade etc.

As a practical matter, the player's ranking that most goes against my gut-instinct is Elgin Baylor. I loved that guy (he "invented" hang-time). Most of my All-Time Favorite One-Play Highlights involve Dr J; but my #1 is a time when Elgin went flying sideways across the key for a dunk - only to face Wilt ... Elgin flipped the ball to his other hand and still dunked over him.

But I can't put all of: Wilt, West, O, Elgin and Russell at the very top of my GOAT list.

So, I approach my GOAT list, position by position and draw up a GOAT list for each position FIRST; based principally on each's number of "Great Years" as defined by selections to the All-League 1st-Teams or 2nd-Teams. On MY GOAT list, this results in Wilt being GOAT #2 Center; O being GOAT #2 PG; Jerry West being GOAT #3 SG; Elgin being GOAT #4 SF; and Russell being GOAT #5. (Thus the 60's get 5 players in my GOAT Top 25).

Specifically, Karl Malone had ELEVEN All-League 1st-Team selections (only Kobe and, in a few days, LeBron match that). This TEMPORARILY, vis-à-vis my GOAT list puts Karl as #1 PF; ahead of TD. BUT, while compared to TD, Karl had one more 1st-Team selection; TD had one more 2nd-Team selection - meaning the difference is tiny. Then other factors come into play for me - and I think TD has just enough advantage over Karl in the Post-Season to nudge ahead of him.

In terms of Bill Russell, his is easily THE most difficult ranking for me - because how can one argue against 11 Rings in 13 seasons? Still, they play (especially back then) only a small fraction as many P-O games as they do Reg. Season games; and THAT team was THE All-Star team of All-Time (having a higher percentage of all the League's best players compared to any other team in history - with Mikan's Lakers and the current Dubs as probably distant 2nd and 3rd in some order). Those C's BARELY won MANY of their P-O games and series AND, IMO, it was Red Auerbach who was the difference maker - he was FAR superior the coach (and GM) to anybody else during that era - EASILY worth 3 points a game! Further, in my entire GOAT Top 50, only Mikan is, imo, LESS-"TRANSFERABLE"; meaning, due to his insufficiencies on offense, Russell would have been a super-Rodman, a defensively-dominant player in any subsequent decade - but ranking lowest amongst the All-Time Greats of THAT decade.

Another thing, I believe that if Russell and Wilt were switched, Wilt's Celtics would have won at least 10 Chips and Russell's "new" teams would have won less Chips than they did with Wilt on them.

Further, there's no objective way I can rank Russell over Wilt. In years they both played, Wilt beat Russell in 1st-Team selections 7-2 - that's huge! So, given that Russell was "only" the 2nd-best Center in his own decade; I can't rank him any higher than 5th-best Center (behind: KAJ, Wilt, Shaq & barely Hakeem) or 21st on my GOAT list.

Undoubtedly this is my most controversial player-ranking in my entire GOAT Top 50 - but those are my reasons. I place less emphasis on (individual) success in the Post-Season than any other GOAT-list maker I'm aware of.

Please post more!

I love that non-biased thinking and you very balanced conclusions, especially since I struggle to stay objective myself (mostly in terms of eras).

My father is exactly your age but his thinking is a lot different than yours, he still thinks Wilt is the GOAT and Jordan is a young flashy punk with no fundamentals

Dear Xherdan 23,
Thank you ever so much for the compliments.

As long as YOU keep in mind that I am sort-of, kind-of, absolutely weirdly-unique and/or uniquely weird; then MAYBE you'll keep in mind that I was born thinking different from everybody I've ever met - even my sense of humor (I think of it as "friendly sarcasm") is bizarre (and can get me into unintentional trouble - people tend to not get it and either take offense or think I'm arrogant). I TEND to only make fun of one person on the planet; and I DO try to be gentle when I make fun of him (myself actually).

I DO know what a challenge it is to even TRY to be objective - when, in this "what have you done for me lately" and " me first" world (I call it "arrogant sectarianism" and consider it to be THE biggest blight in the character of we Americans) ... it's like we are (deliberately) raised to think we (our generation and its stars) are somehow more special than past and future ones - and then, unconsciously, we inculcate our kids with the same thinking.

I make NO claim to having made myself this way - that's on my parents (my mom read an entire book a day every day of her adult life; and was very loving despite somehow being very intolerant; my dad was THE most tolerant person I've ever met - and I (probably at least partially because I'm an eldest son) seem to be a near identical copy of him - same logic (or lack thereof); same silly sense of humor; same basic striving for fairness in everything; same rooting for the underdog. As I've aged, I THINK (when I use THINK in capital letters it means I might be right but I admit I might be wrong) I even look like him more and more. If I did much to "improve" the basic DNA they gave me; and the incredibly secure-loving atmosphere they raised me in - it's just that, because of West-Baylors BI-RACIAL UNITY, harmony & artistry - at a very young age I got inspired to dedicate my life to peace-justice causes - and, to be effective at helping others make the world a better place - you really need to get as humble as possible so you can learn as much as possible so you both: do better work and better avoid trying to "re-invent the wheel".

So, this "infection" or "infestation" of "MY generation & its stars is/was the best" is nearly all-pervasive in the U.S. Imo, a key contributing factor is the fact that the US has been THE top dog (economically until quite recently; and military still) for at least 70 years - it's easy, almost automatic for the people living in the most advanced country to slide into arrogant-sectarianism - it seems self-evident that we're the best (sweetest, smartest, best-est) - and seeming the PTBs do all they can to encourage that so we don't notice (much less object to) any of the utter nastiness being carried out in our name.

IF this thinking is correct; it'd certainly explain why American sports fan (and British sports fans, especially during their 100 years of world-dominance - notice the pattern) are so prone to in-fighting - to the point of being more ready to fight each other than to join together and just enjoy the skills and beauty of what these great athletes are sharing with us.

Again, because of my ultra-tolerant upbringing (in a very intolerant age); when one of the earliest ever basketball GOATS arose (Mikan) and then, not long afterward got replaced (by Wilt) - it struck me (and hard) that this "universal" self-assuredness, about GOATS in particular (as part of a society-wide arrogant sectarianism) - was something I had to fight to never succumb to.

And then I thought - "well this is great; this is the best." There's bound to be a near never-ending succession of All-Time Greats to thrill us all life long.

So, after Wilt surpassed Mikan; I had no real problem recognizing that KAJ had, at least, a legitimate claim as GOAT; and then Magic and MJ and now LeBron.

One of the basic results of this thinking is that I almost never say things like, "This is clear as can be and it's not even close!" (The only real exception? When I tell you that I'm the most humble person ever; and it's not even close!)

So, for example: IMO, the gap between GOAT #1 (KAJ) and GOAT #2 (Magic) is not all that great (I can "live with" people who claim that Magic's career was better). As you go done MY GOAT list, the gaps get smaller right away. My gap between Magic and #3 MJ is tiny.

This is also the case between any two successively ranked players of the same position. So, for Centers I've got: KAJ, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Russell, Moses, DRob - but, imo, the gaps are all small, especially below KAJ.

Here's another example.

SG: Imo, Kobe actually had a better regular season career than did MJ. Why? Because Kobe had TWO more Great Years (one more All-NBA 1st-Team; 1 more All-NBA 2nd-Team). Then why do I rank MJ OVER Kobe. Because I think the quality of MJ's Great Years was slightly better, on average than Kobe's AND the quality of MJ's Play-Off years was also slightly better than Kobe's - the two factors together barely squeaking MJ over Kobe. Similar small gap for Kobe over MY GOAT #3 SG: Jerry West.

Same thing for Wilt over Shaq.

Permit me to say a couple of things about the would-be "power" of this way to rank GOAT players. Once you rise as high as you're ever gonna rise - any subsequent years can't hurt you. But, the more Great Years you accumulate, the higher you rise.

Here's a great example of how this has been playing out RECENTLY.

5 Years ago I had LeBron GOAT #9 and, imo, he has risen each year one, and only one spot - so he's just passed TD into GOAT #4. (If he continues being a Top-TWO SF; he'll continue moving up another spot per year, basically - so "look out GOAT #1 Kareem!")

But how has just about the whole rest of fandom evaluated LBJ's career?
First, when I had him (barely) in the GOAT Top 10; most people had him clearly below that level. Then, due to his incredible performance in the 2015 Play-Offs (especially Finals) SOME of them jumped him up a bunch of positions. Then, due to last year's incredible Play-Offs (especially Finals) MOST people jumped him up to GOAT #2 behind only MJ. For me this is much too unstable a way to evaluate careers - Great Careers last a minimum of 10 Great Years; and for each addition Great Year, a player is gonna TEND to move up another spot (at least compared to other players at their same position).

This way, LBJ has been moving up about ONE spot per year - that seems eminently reasonable to me.

(It also keeps one out of all the flame-warring based on "and it's not even close" type "logic".)

[Pablo Novi]

KAJ, Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Duncan, Moses, Mikan, Gilmore, Sabonis(nba and overseas),Walton

I'd have Hakeem, Robinson next.

Imo Walton has no arguement over Hakeem all Time. Like at all (i mean imo that applies for. A bunch of them but just the games played)

1238 career games vs 468 games

i get longevity, but walton was like 4 times the player.

Was Bill Walton GOAT-Worthy? NO! Could He Have Been? YES!
I LOVED the Mountain Man at UCLA (consider him GOAT #2 College Player only behind "Lew Alcindor"); and LOVED what he did at Portland - led perhaps the Greatest Finals UNDERDOG ever from a 0-2 deficit to run 4 games in a row over PERHAPS THE greatest Finals team ever.

I even met Walton once in Balboa Park (San Diego) - he was on his bike (dwarfing it); I was on one of my daily 2.5 hour hilly runs - we almost crashed into each other.

Still, he ONLY had, what?, 2.5 Great Years? You can't be a GOAT candidate with less than TEN Great Years; much less less-than-THREE! (I "give" Walton 1.5 Great Years at Portland; and 1 Great Year (as a SUBSTITUTE who was actually better than Parish) at Boston - but that's all I can "give" him.)

Could Walton have been the GOAT? ABSOLUTELY. If only he didn't have such terrible "wheels" - the guy's feet were so injury prone - he basically never got the chance to show all that skill and all those smarts.

(Ever hear Bill Walton being interviewed about HIS opinion about GOAT players? It'll blow you away. He has NOTHING but good things to say about all of them - and he KNOWS exactly what made each one GOAT-consideration worthy. He had (I imagine he still does - although I haven't much run into his public persona much in the last bunch of years) - a HUMILITY and kind-hearted maturity about him - and he KNEW his sport. )

Where do I rank Bill Walton on MY GOAT List? I give him an "Honorary Mention" type GOAT #49 ranking - his PEAK was that GREAT. (I give George Mikan a similar "Honorary Mention"-type GOAT #50 ranking - for HIS (super-weak) era - he was THE MOST DOMINANT PLAYER EVER.