Xherdan 23 wrote:Pablo Novi wrote:Quotatious wrote:Nice to see someone who ranks Karl Malone in top 10. He was one of those players I despised when he was active (because he was dirty on the court and did some shameful things off the court), but looking back at his career, I have the utmost respect for what he did, championship or not. He was just so good for so long.
In general, I really like the fact that your top 15 isn't skewed in favor of any particular generation, even though old timers like yourself usually tend to overrate players from the 60s. Well done in this regard.
I find it very surprising that you don't have Russell in your top 15, though.
Thanx for the compliments.
Thru no fault of my own (other than "choosing" my parents), I was born "half-calculator / half-boy" - and have been making rankings lists since I could count. In a super-intolerant age, my dad was super-tolerant and that rubbed off on me. So, I'm always TRYING (who's to say how well I succeed) to ensure that I fight MY OWN would-be biases.
The first PRACTICAL key event for me was the arrival of Wilt on the pro b-ball scene. Everyone, without exception, "KNEW" that Mikan was and would always be the GOAT - his career was that much greater than all before him. Yet after a year with the Globetrotters and less than a year in the NBA, it was undeniable that Wilt was WAY the bleep better than Mr. Basketball.
And this rocked my little world - everybody had been so sure; it seemed so obvious. But it turned out not only false; but that particular myth didn't last all that long. THAT lesson stuck with me ever since - and I believe I've been extra-careful to be as fair as possible in "all directions": be they team-wise, nationality, position, League, decade etc.
As a practical matter, the player's ranking that most goes against my gut-instinct is Elgin Baylor. I loved that guy (he "invented" hang-time). Most of my All-Time Favorite One-Play Highlights involve Dr J; but my #1 is a time when Elgin went flying sideways across the key for a dunk - only to face Wilt ... Elgin flipped the ball to his other hand and still dunked over him.
But I can't put all of: Wilt, West, O, Elgin and Russell at the very top of my GOAT list.
So, I approach my GOAT list, position by position and draw up a GOAT list for each position FIRST; based principally on each's number of "Great Years" as defined by selections to the All-League 1st-Teams or 2nd-Teams. On MY GOAT list, this results in Wilt being GOAT #2 Center; O being GOAT #2 PG; Jerry West being GOAT #3 SG; Elgin being GOAT #4 SF; and Russell being GOAT #5. (Thus the 60's get 5 players in my GOAT Top 25).
Specifically, Karl Malone had ELEVEN All-League 1st-Team selections (only Kobe and, in a few days, LeBron match that). This TEMPORARILY, vis-à-vis my GOAT list puts Karl as #1 PF; ahead of TD. BUT, while compared to TD, Karl had one more 1st-Team selection; TD had one more 2nd-Team selection - meaning the difference is tiny. Then other factors come into play for me - and I think TD has just enough advantage over Karl in the Post-Season to nudge ahead of him.
In terms of Bill Russell, his is easily THE most difficult ranking for me - because how can one argue against 11 Rings in 13 seasons? Still, they play (especially back then) only a small fraction as many P-O games as they do Reg. Season games; and THAT team was THE All-Star team of All-Time (having a higher percentage of all the League's best players compared to any other team in history - with Mikan's Lakers and the current Dubs as probably distant 2nd and 3rd in some order). Those C's BARELY won MANY of their P-O games and series AND, IMO, it was Red Auerbach who was the difference maker - he was FAR superior the coach (and GM) to anybody else during that era - EASILY worth 3 points a game! Further, in my entire GOAT Top 50, only Mikan is, imo, LESS-"TRANSFERABLE"; meaning, due to his insufficiencies on offense, Russell would have been a super-Rodman, a defensively-dominant player in any subsequent decade - but ranking lowest amongst the All-Time Greats of THAT decade.
Another thing, I believe that if Russell and Wilt were switched, Wilt's Celtics would have won at least 10 Chips and Russell's "new" teams would have won less Chips than they did with Wilt on them.
Further, there's no objective way I can rank Russell over Wilt. In years they both played, Wilt beat Russell in 1st-Team selections 7-2 - that's huge! So, given that Russell was "only" the 2nd-best Center in his own decade; I can't rank him any higher than 5th-best Center (behind: KAJ, Wilt, Shaq & barely Hakeem) or 21st on my GOAT list.
Undoubtedly this is my most controversial player-ranking in my entire GOAT Top 50 - but those are my reasons. I place less emphasis on (individual) success in the Post-Season than any other GOAT-list maker I'm aware of.
Please post more!
I love that non-biased thinking and you very balanced conclusions, especially since I struggle to stay objective myself (mostly in terms of eras).
My father is exactly your age but his thinking is a lot different than yours, he still thinks Wilt is the GOAT and Jordan is a young flashy punk with no fundamentals

Dear Xherdan 23,
Thank you ever so much for the compliments.
As long as YOU keep in mind that I am sort-of, kind-of, absolutely weirdly-unique and/or uniquely weird; then MAYBE you'll keep in mind that I was born thinking different from everybody I've ever met - even my sense of humor (I think of it as "friendly sarcasm") is bizarre (and can get me into unintentional trouble - people tend to not get it and either take offense or think I'm arrogant). I TEND to only make fun of one person on the planet; and I DO try to be gentle when I make fun of him (myself actually).
I DO know what a challenge it is to even TRY to be objective - when, in this "what have you done for me lately" and " me first" world (I call it "arrogant sectarianism" and consider it to be THE biggest blight in the character of we Americans) ... it's like we are (deliberately) raised to think we (our generation and its stars) are somehow more special than past and future ones - and then, unconsciously, we inculcate our kids with the same thinking.
I make NO claim to having made myself this way - that's on my parents (my mom read an entire book a day every day of her adult life; and was very loving despite somehow being very intolerant; my dad was THE most tolerant person I've ever met - and I (probably at least partially because I'm an eldest son) seem to be a near identical copy of him - same logic (or lack thereof); same silly sense of humor; same basic striving for fairness in everything; same rooting for the underdog. As I've aged, I THINK (when I use THINK in capital letters it means I might be right but I admit I might be wrong) I even look like him more and more. If I did much to "improve" the basic DNA they gave me; and the incredibly secure-loving atmosphere they raised me in - it's just that, because of West-Baylors BI-RACIAL UNITY, harmony & artistry - at a very young age I got inspired to dedicate my life to peace-justice causes - and, to be effective at helping others make the world a better place - you really need to get as humble as possible so you can learn as much as possible so you both: do better work and better avoid trying to "re-invent the wheel".
So, this "infection" or "infestation" of "MY generation & its stars is/was the best" is nearly all-pervasive in the U.S. Imo, a key contributing factor is the fact that the US has been THE top dog (economically until quite recently; and military still) for at least 70 years - it's easy, almost automatic for the people living in the most advanced country to slide into arrogant-sectarianism - it seems self-evident that we're the best (sweetest, smartest, best-est) - and seeming the PTBs do all they can to encourage that so we don't notice (much less object to) any of the utter nastiness being carried out in our name.
IF this thinking is correct; it'd certainly explain why American sports fan (and British sports fans, especially during their 100 years of world-dominance - notice the pattern) are so prone to in-fighting - to the point of being more ready to fight each other than to join together and just enjoy the skills and beauty of what these great athletes are sharing with us.
Again, because of my ultra-tolerant upbringing (in a very intolerant age); when one of the earliest ever basketball GOATS arose (Mikan) and then, not long afterward got replaced (by Wilt) - it struck me (and hard) that this "universal" self-assuredness, about GOATS in particular (as part of a society-wide arrogant sectarianism) - was something I had to fight to never succumb to.
And then I thought - "well this is great; this is the best." There's bound to be a near never-ending succession of All-Time Greats to thrill us all life long.
So, after Wilt surpassed Mikan; I had no real problem recognizing that KAJ had, at least, a legitimate claim as GOAT; and then Magic and MJ and now LeBron.
One of the basic results of this thinking is that I almost never say things like, "This is clear as can be and it's not even close!" (The only real exception? When I tell you that I'm the most humble person ever; and it's not even close!)
So, for example: IMO, the gap between GOAT #1 (KAJ) and GOAT #2 (Magic) is not all that great (I can "live with" people who claim that Magic's career was better). As you go done MY GOAT list, the gaps get smaller right away. My gap between Magic and #3 MJ is tiny.
This is also the case between any two successively ranked players of the same position. So, for Centers I've got: KAJ, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Russell, Moses, DRob - but, imo, the gaps are all small, especially below KAJ.
Here's another example.
SG: Imo, Kobe actually had a better regular season career than did MJ. Why? Because Kobe had TWO more Great Years (one more All-NBA 1st-Team; 1 more All-NBA 2nd-Team). Then why do I rank MJ OVER Kobe. Because I think the quality of MJ's Great Years was slightly better, on average than Kobe's AND the quality of MJ's Play-Off years was also slightly better than Kobe's - the two factors together barely squeaking MJ over Kobe. Similar small gap for Kobe over MY GOAT #3 SG: Jerry West.
Same thing for Wilt over Shaq.
Permit me to say a couple of things about the would-be "power" of this way to rank GOAT players. Once you rise as high as you're ever gonna rise - any subsequent years can't hurt you. But, the more Great Years you accumulate, the higher you rise.
Here's a great example of how this has been playing out RECENTLY.
5 Years ago I had LeBron GOAT #9 and, imo, he has risen each year one, and only one spot - so he's just passed TD into GOAT #4. (If he continues being a Top-TWO SF; he'll continue moving up another spot per year, basically - so "look out GOAT #1 Kareem!")
But how has just about the whole rest of fandom evaluated LBJ's career?
First, when I had him (barely) in the GOAT Top 10; most people had him clearly below that level. Then, due to his incredible performance in the 2015 Play-Offs (especially Finals) SOME of them jumped him up a bunch of positions. Then, due to last year's incredible Play-Offs (especially Finals) MOST people jumped him up to GOAT #2 behind only MJ. For me this is much too unstable a way to evaluate careers - Great Careers last a minimum of 10 Great Years; and for each addition Great Year, a player is gonna TEND to move up another spot (at least compared to other players at their same position).
This way, LBJ has been moving up about ONE spot per year - that seems eminently reasonable to me.
(It also keeps one out of all the flame-warring based on "and it's not even close" type "logic".)