penbeast0 wrote:scrabbarista wrote:40. Elvin Hayes
41. Artis Gilmore
Gilmore is already in.
I woke up this morning and thought to myself, "I think Gilmore is already in." Logged on to check it, and... yep. My bad! Will edit my vote now.
Moderators: trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal, Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ
penbeast0 wrote:scrabbarista wrote:40. Elvin Hayes
41. Artis Gilmore
Gilmore is already in.
pandrade83 wrote:1st choice: Wes Unseld
Honorable Mention: George Gervin
If you're not giving Unseld a look, you're missing a gem. You're getting a guy who is recognized as a high impact performer (VORP, BPM), was selected to be an MVP, was a strong playoff performer & enjoyed strong team success.
Advanced Metrics
Unseld hit 5+ scores for both BPM & VORP twice - that we know of - one of which didn't come in a double digit WS year. If we make the reasonably safe assumption that he hit those scores in ALL of his double digit WS year, that gives him 5 years of a BPM Score of 5+ and 5 years of a VORP Score of 5+.
What's so impressive about that? If I look at all the players excluding McGrady who got 1st place votes last round, they hit VORP 5+ a combined 6 times* with no other player getting there 3 times and they hit BPM 5+ a combined 3 times.
* - Hayes never got to 10 WS in a pre'74 season so I didn't assume he made it at all prior to '74, Cousy never got to 9 WS even.
It's highly likely that if we had RAPM, the metric would've loved him as well.
MVP
In the '68-'69 season, Unseld was selected MVP over guys who are already in like Wilt, Russell, West, Baylor, Frazier & Hondo. He is clearly well respected by his peers. His team improved by 21 wins without any changes to their core or a coaching change.
Strong playoff performer
In the playoffs, he maintains his strong performance - averaging 10/15/4/with 1.8 TOs (on fairly limited data) which is right on par with his career averages.
The most infamous defeat one of his teams suffer isn't really on him (the '75 Finals). He does his thing - 12-17-4 on 54% TS. That's who he was. Hayes crippled the team offensively - yes, he scored 20 PPG but he shot a miserable TS% of just 46%.
Strong Team Success
Unseld was the team playoff leader in WS and then VORP/BPM for 4 Finals Teams* as he was vital to his teams' playoff success as mentioned by his strong playoff numbers above. Unseld only misses the playoffs once in a strong 13 year career that sees him pace his team in every year but 2 ('74 - injuries & '81 - injuries + final year) in VORP & BPM - and before that in WS.
* - Hayes outpaced Unseld in Playoff VORP; Unseld outpaced Hayes in Playoff BPM as well as regular season VORP and BPM
Unseld would make a fantastic addition to our Top 40. You're getting an MVP who is recognized as a high impact performer by advanced metrics, who had decent longevity, was a strong playoff performer and was the driver of a consistent winner.
You just don't see guys who achieved that much this late; there's guys left who achieved higher peaks, but had much worse longevity - Unseld brings very high impact years over a sustained run as a winner; the really high peak players remaining (Westbrook, Tmac, McAdoo, Walton) can't say that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sometimes WS, BPM, VORP & RAPM get it wrong. George Gervin is one of those cases. There's a lot of value in having the leading scorer who does so at the efficiency that Gervin achieved. Let's focus in on his scoring title years:
'78 - 27.2 ppg @ +7.9% TS relative to league average; 14.0% TOV - looks high but still 2% below league average
'79 - 29.6 ppg @ +6.1% TS relative to league average; 12.5% TOV
'80 - 33.1 ppg @ +5.4% TS relative to league average; 10.3% TOV
'82 - 32.3 ppg @ +2.3% TS relative to league average; 8.5% TOV
Offensively he's a clear boon to your team.
It translates to winning too - this isn't empty stats by any stretch of the imagination.. The Spurs win their division in 3 of those 4 years and he's anchoring offenses that are top 3 or higher every year from '75-'84 with the lone exception of '81 when they were 4th. The Spurs win 50 games or more in their final 2 ABA years and 5 Division Titles upon entering the league.
His numbers translate well to the post-season averaging 29-7-3, 1 stl & 1 block on 56% TS from '75-'83 and for the intangible guys, it's noteworthy that he's not really being moved around either unlike an Adrian Dantley,
So, with all that, why is he below Unseld? His defensive issues come to play for sure - while I don't think this is a James Harden situation, the defensive metrics we have outside of blocks/steals don't paint him in a positive light at all. Additionally, his impact outside of scoring is a little bit light. A typical year from him aside from the monster scoring is something like 5 reb, 3 ast. On the rare off-night offensively, he's not doing much for you, so he's a little bit of a one trick pony in terms of the ways he impacts the game. It's still immensely valuable and he does it for a long time - but there's a reason the VORP/BPM #'s I wrote above are so glowing for Unseld & not for Gervin. I think the #'s are wrong in regards to Gervin - but I give Unseld a slight edge because he has more than one way he's impacting the game.
pandrade83 wrote:1st choice: Wes Unseld
Honorable Mention: George Gervin
If you're not giving Unseld a look, you're missing a gem. You're getting a guy who is recognized as a high impact performer (VORP, BPM), was selected to be an MVP, was a strong playoff performer & enjoyed strong team success.
Advanced Metrics
Unseld hit 5+ scores for both BPM & VORP twice - that we know of - one of which didn't come in a double digit WS year. If we make the reasonably safe assumption that he hit those scores in ALL of his double digit WS year, that gives him 5 years of a BPM Score of 5+ and 5 years of a VORP Score of 5+.
What's so impressive about that? If I look at all the players excluding McGrady who got 1st place votes last round, they hit VORP 5+ a combined 6 times* with no other player getting there 3 times and they hit BPM 5+ a combined 3 times.
* - Hayes never got to 10 WS in a pre'74 season so I didn't assume he made it at all prior to '74, Cousy never got to 9 WS even.
It's highly likely that if we had RAPM, the metric would've loved him as well.
MVP
In the '68-'69 season, Unseld was selected MVP over guys who are already in like Wilt, Russell, West, Baylor, Frazier & Hondo. He is clearly well respected by his peers. His team improved by 21 wins without any changes to their core or a coaching change.
Strong playoff performer
In the playoffs, he maintains his strong performance - averaging 10/15/4/with 1.8 TOs (on fairly limited data) which is right on par with his career averages.
The most infamous defeat one of his teams suffer isn't really on him (the '75 Finals). He does his thing - 12-17-4 on 54% TS. That's who he was. Hayes crippled the team offensively - yes, he scored 20 PPG but he shot a miserable TS% of just 46%.
Strong Team Success
Unseld was the team playoff leader in WS and then VORP/BPM for 4 Finals Teams* as he was vital to his teams' playoff success as mentioned by his strong playoff numbers above. Unseld only misses the playoffs once in a strong 13 year career that sees him pace his team in every year but 2 ('74 - injuries & '81 - injuries + final year) in VORP & BPM - and before that in WS.
* - Hayes outpaced Unseld in Playoff VORP; Unseld outpaced Hayes in Playoff BPM as well as regular season VORP and BPM
Unseld would make a fantastic addition to our Top 40. You're getting an MVP who is recognized as a high impact performer by advanced metrics, who had decent longevity, was a strong playoff performer and was the driver of a consistent winner.
You just don't see guys who achieved that much this late; there's guys left who achieved higher peaks, but had much worse longevity - Unseld brings very high impact years over a sustained run as a winner; the really high peak players remaining (Westbrook, Tmac, McAdoo, Walton) can't say that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sometimes WS, BPM, VORP & RAPM get it wrong. George Gervin is one of those cases. There's a lot of value in having the leading scorer who does so at the efficiency that Gervin achieved. Let's focus in on his scoring title years:
'78 - 27.2 ppg @ +7.9% TS relative to league average; 14.0% TOV - looks high but still 2% below league average
'79 - 29.6 ppg @ +6.1% TS relative to league average; 12.5% TOV
'80 - 33.1 ppg @ +5.4% TS relative to league average; 10.3% TOV
'82 - 32.3 ppg @ +2.3% TS relative to league average; 8.5% TOV
Offensively he's a clear boon to your team.
It translates to winning too - this isn't empty stats by any stretch of the imagination.. The Spurs win their division in 3 of those 4 years and he's anchoring offenses that are top 3 or higher every year from '75-'84 with the lone exception of '81 when they were 4th. The Spurs win 50 games or more in their final 2 ABA years and 5 Division Titles upon entering the league.
His numbers translate well to the post-season averaging 29-7-3, 1 stl & 1 block on 56% TS from '75-'83 and for the intangible guys, it's noteworthy that he's not really being moved around either unlike an Adrian Dantley,
So, with all that, why is he below Unseld? His defensive issues come to play for sure - while I don't think this is a James Harden situation, the defensive metrics we have outside of blocks/steals don't paint him in a positive light at all. Additionally, his impact outside of scoring is a little bit light. A typical year from him aside from the monster scoring is something like 5 reb, 3 ast. On the rare off-night offensively, he's not doing much for you, so he's a little bit of a one trick pony in terms of the ways he impacts the game. It's still immensely valuable and he does it for a long time - but there's a reason the VORP/BPM #'s I wrote above are so glowing for Unseld & not for Gervin. I think the #'s are wrong in regards to Gervin - but I give Unseld a slight edge because he has more than one way he's impacting the game.
LA Bird wrote:I will vote later since the new voting system is still getting sorted out but I will talk about Unseld since he appears to be the frontrunner in this round.
1. Unseld's 1969 MVP is worth about as much as Iverson's 2001 MVP for me. Both were around the 5th best player in the league but they weren't better than Russell/West/Reed/Oscar or Shaq/Kobe/Duncan/Garnett. Howard (2011) and Mourning (1999) came much closer to being the best player in the league than Unseld IMO.
2. Unseld is not close to being a DPOY level defender. He is undersized at only 6'6 and doesn't have the Ben Wallace level athleticism to make up for the lack of height. As a rim protector, he peaked at less than 1 block a game and he doesn't have the lateral quickness to guard smaller players out on the perimeter. DBPM numbers are elite but Unseld's strength in the low post as a man defender is his only strength on defense and even in that area, he doesn't have the length to contest shots effectively.
3. The Bullets generally had good team success thanks to their defense but Unseld was not the defensive anchor. The team had two of the best defensive PFs of the era in Gus Johnson and Elvin Hayes to cover for Unseld's lack of shotblocking. Despite his poor intangibles and inefficient chucking, I have Hayes ranked above Unseld in most of their seasons together and adding in the difference in longevity, I am not seeing the case for Unseld ahead of Hayes.
Unseld's offense is pretty good but his defense is not strong enough compared to the perennial DPOY centers such as Howard, Mourning, Mutombo, Wallace and I think defense is far more important for big men.
smartyz456 wrote:Duncan would be a better defending jahlil okafor in todays nba
scrabbarista wrote:pandrade83 wrote:1st choice: Wes Unseld
Honorable Mention: George Gervin
If you're not giving Unseld a look, you're missing a gem. You're getting a guy who is recognized as a high impact performer (VORP, BPM), was selected to be an MVP, was a strong playoff performer & enjoyed strong team success.
Advanced Metrics
Unseld hit 5+ scores for both BPM & VORP twice - that we know of - one of which didn't come in a double digit WS year. If we make the reasonably safe assumption that he hit those scores in ALL of his double digit WS year, that gives him 5 years of a BPM Score of 5+ and 5 years of a VORP Score of 5+.
What's so impressive about that? If I look at all the players excluding McGrady who got 1st place votes last round, they hit VORP 5+ a combined 6 times* with no other player getting there 3 times and they hit BPM 5+ a combined 3 times.
* - Hayes never got to 10 WS in a pre'74 season so I didn't assume he made it at all prior to '74, Cousy never got to 9 WS even.
It's highly likely that if we had RAPM, the metric would've loved him as well.
MVP
In the '68-'69 season, Unseld was selected MVP over guys who are already in like Wilt, Russell, West, Baylor, Frazier & Hondo. He is clearly well respected by his peers. His team improved by 21 wins without any changes to their core or a coaching change.
Strong playoff performer
In the playoffs, he maintains his strong performance - averaging 10/15/4/with 1.8 TOs (on fairly limited data) which is right on par with his career averages.
The most infamous defeat one of his teams suffer isn't really on him (the '75 Finals). He does his thing - 12-17-4 on 54% TS. That's who he was. Hayes crippled the team offensively - yes, he scored 20 PPG but he shot a miserable TS% of just 46%.
Strong Team Success
Unseld was the team playoff leader in WS and then VORP/BPM for 4 Finals Teams* as he was vital to his teams' playoff success as mentioned by his strong playoff numbers above. Unseld only misses the playoffs once in a strong 13 year career that sees him pace his team in every year but 2 ('74 - injuries & '81 - injuries + final year) in VORP & BPM - and before that in WS.
* - Hayes outpaced Unseld in Playoff VORP; Unseld outpaced Hayes in Playoff BPM as well as regular season VORP and BPM
Unseld would make a fantastic addition to our Top 40. You're getting an MVP who is recognized as a high impact performer by advanced metrics, who had decent longevity, was a strong playoff performer and was the driver of a consistent winner.
You just don't see guys who achieved that much this late; there's guys left who achieved higher peaks, but had much worse longevity - Unseld brings very high impact years over a sustained run as a winner; the really high peak players remaining (Westbrook, Tmac, McAdoo, Walton) can't say that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sometimes WS, BPM, VORP & RAPM get it wrong. George Gervin is one of those cases. There's a lot of value in having the leading scorer who does so at the efficiency that Gervin achieved. Let's focus in on his scoring title years:
'78 - 27.2 ppg @ +7.9% TS relative to league average; 14.0% TOV - looks high but still 2% below league average
'79 - 29.6 ppg @ +6.1% TS relative to league average; 12.5% TOV
'80 - 33.1 ppg @ +5.4% TS relative to league average; 10.3% TOV
'82 - 32.3 ppg @ +2.3% TS relative to league average; 8.5% TOV
Offensively he's a clear boon to your team.
It translates to winning too - this isn't empty stats by any stretch of the imagination.. The Spurs win their division in 3 of those 4 years and he's anchoring offenses that are top 3 or higher every year from '75-'84 with the lone exception of '81 when they were 4th. The Spurs win 50 games or more in their final 2 ABA years and 5 Division Titles upon entering the league.
His numbers translate well to the post-season averaging 29-7-3, 1 stl & 1 block on 56% TS from '75-'83 and for the intangible guys, it's noteworthy that he's not really being moved around either unlike an Adrian Dantley,
So, with all that, why is he below Unseld? His defensive issues come to play for sure - while I don't think this is a James Harden situation, the defensive metrics we have outside of blocks/steals don't paint him in a positive light at all. Additionally, his impact outside of scoring is a little bit light. A typical year from him aside from the monster scoring is something like 5 reb, 3 ast. On the rare off-night offensively, he's not doing much for you, so he's a little bit of a one trick pony in terms of the ways he impacts the game. It's still immensely valuable and he does it for a long time - but there's a reason the VORP/BPM #'s I wrote above are so glowing for Unseld & not for Gervin. I think the #'s are wrong in regards to Gervin - but I give Unseld a slight edge because he has more than one way he's impacting the game.
You paint a lovely picture, and I've usually had Unseld in the low 50's, so he's close (ten spots isn't much at this point in the list), but looking at his career BPM and VORP, he's 27th in BPM and 87th in VORP. The average of those two is 57th. I actually have him at 61st overall right now, without using BPM or VORP in my formula (until the '16-'17 season, actually). I'm just not sure that those numbers are so far apart that I need to incorporate those particular stats into my formula.
Also, by linking WS and BPM/VORP in your argument, you've inadvertently reinforced my reliance on WS as a stat that is available going further back into league history.
Team success is the other pillar of your argument, which is something that already appears fairly prominently in my formula. I've always wished that team winning percentage (or expected %, if you prefer) in games played was a readily available stat (much was made of Duncan's in his final few years), but I just don't have the patience to go through BBR and line it up. Besides, it shows up to an extent in WS, Finals appearances, titles, playoff games played and total PS stats, etc.
In short, great argument, you definitively increased my respect for Unseld (and actually, my formula incorporates the rankings in this RGM list, so if you convince others to put him in here, at 40th, when he was 69th in 2014, you will have effectively convinced me to increase his ranking as well), but not quite to the point where I think my formula is so broken than it'd be worth the time and effort - always considerable - it takes to rejigger it.
As a post-script, I would note that I have him at 61st when his 2014 ranking of 69th is actually incorporated into his score. Thus, my formula is already showing him more respect than the voters did last time around.
LA Bird wrote:I will vote later since the new voting system is still getting sorted out but I will talk about Unseld since he appears to be the frontrunner in this round.
1. Unseld's 1969 MVP is worth about as much as Iverson's 2001 MVP for me. Both were around the 5th best player in the league but they weren't better than Russell/West/Reed/Oscar or Shaq/Kobe/Duncan/Garnett. Howard (2011) and Mourning (1999) came much closer to being the best player in the league than Unseld IMO.
2. Unseld is not close to being a DPOY level defender. He is undersized at only 6'6 and doesn't have the Ben Wallace level athleticism to make up for the lack of height. As a rim protector, he peaked at less than 1 block a game and he doesn't have the lateral quickness to guard smaller players out on the perimeter. DBPM numbers are elite but Unseld's strength in the low post as a man defender is his only strength on defense and even in that area, he doesn't have the length to contest shots effectively.
3. The Bullets generally had good team success thanks to their defense but Unseld was not the defensive anchor. The team had two of the best defensive PFs of the era in Gus Johnson and Elvin Hayes to cover for Unseld's lack of shotblocking. Despite his poor intangibles and inefficient chucking, I have Hayes ranked above Unseld in most of their seasons together and adding in the difference in longevity, I am not seeing the case for Unseld ahead of Hayes.
Unseld's offense is pretty good but his defense is not strong enough compared to the perennial DPOY centers such as Howard, Mourning, Mutombo, Wallace and I think defense is far more important for big men.
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Fundamentals21 wrote:Not surprised at all. We're fairly wide open. Part of the reason why I listed some 20 names in my considerations. Bill Walton will make the 11th name here, Lol.
Dr Positivity wrote:Thoughts on Cousy, Billups, Miller, Gervin, Tmac, Mourning, Dwight, Schayes, Iverson, Unseld, Pierce, Westbrook from last thread:Spoiler:
Vote Paul Pierce
When I looked at it closer I realized his longevity is tremendous. Yes he wasn't rated an MVP caliber player in his time, but the combination of scoring creation, spacing and passing is a high value offensive role for a wing and he showed he can defend in the right situation.
2nd: George Gervin
Winsome Gerbil wrote:
I've noticed the Cousy voters seem to have largely dropped out. I think it would have been a good idea to show a little respect that way, but won't bother pissing in the wind for a bit. So slight change here:
40) Iverson
41) Westbrook
pandrade83 wrote:WRT Hayes vs. Unseld, I disagree with you for a couple reasons:
1) Unseld beats Hayes in regular season VORP/BPM every year but '74 & '81.
2) The above holds true for every playoffs as well except '74 & '78 (VORP only - Unseld still beats him on playoff scores)
3) Hayes is a big reason that he & Unseld have just 1 chip - they could've easily had 3 Championships but Hayes hurt them in both series.