"A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ The Equality & Other Issues Thread

[AlCelticFan]

So let me take it back tot he social issues this thread is really about.

Assuming that the statistics bear out that there are indeed biases against black people in the US, that cannot be accounted for by other socio-economic factors: what is the solution? what can be done in terms of policy that will help?

Not only do endless statistics definitively prove bias and racism on endless fronts, statistics do not tell the story of un- or under-reported crimes, or many of the thousands of ways in which racism is insidiously embedded on our society and its institutions.

I think anyone in this discussion should make it a point to spend more time in the hood, for lack of a better way to put it. You will very not likely get robbed if you are there in the daytime, acting correctly.

Talk to people about their lives. Chances are, it will all make sense then. When you hear grandmothers talk about how they can't go outside at night, and how 911 doesn't come when they call, and how their 13yo honor student grandson was made to lie spread-eagled on the ground by police with a drawn gun on them.

What happens in these communities is not right. Like, deeply and profoundly so. And denying that is takes place, or being mad at them for being upset about it? 100% inexcusable.

Why do people expect people to salute a flag that represents their exploitation and oppression? No, really?

I can't disagree with any of that. The conservative outcry is pure hypocrisy anyway... free speech duh.

Some stats I googled:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/02/civil-rights-act-anniversary-racism-charts_n_5521104.html

[Parliament10]

1787








1863

Watch on YouTube

1963








2017

[Big Baby]

Hi!
I'm Big Baby. I'm a racist!

I'm also most likely uneducated. It's not the first time I've been accused of being ignorant so maybe it's true. Hell, I'm starting to believe it myself. Because when everyone agrees, it's the Paul Pierce.

But I don't give a damn what you bitches think about me. I love all of you a$$holes.

[ViperGTS]

So let me take it back tot he social issues this thread is really about.

Assuming that the statistics bear out that there are indeed biases against black people in the US, that cannot be accounted for by other socio-economic factors: what is the solution? what can be done in terms of policy that will help?

Not only do endless statistics definitively prove bias and racism on endless fronts, statistics do not tell the story of un- or under-reported crimes, or many of the thousands of ways in which racism is insidiously embedded on our society and its institutions.

I think anyone in this discussion should make it a point to spend more time in the hood, for lack of a better way to put it. You will very not likely get robbed if you are there in the daytime, acting correctly.

Talk to people about their lives. Chances are, it will all make sense then. When you hear grandmothers talk about how they can't go outside at night, and how 911 doesn't come when they call, and how their 13yo honor student grandson was made to lie spread-eagled on the ground by police with a drawn gun on them.

What happens in these communities is not right. Like, deeply and profoundly so. And denying that is takes place, or being mad at them for being upset about it? 100% inexcusable.

Why do people expect people to salute a flag that represents their exploitation and oppression? No, really?

Grandmothers can’t go out at night and cops don’t come when called because.....most of them are stuck in a war zone. Also, most of the worst areas in the country for these types of areas are...LA, Chicago and other places where the criminals carry firearms yet the citizens aren’t really allowed to. So that’s generally breeds that type of attitude. Also, when grandmas 13 year old honor student is walking home in an area like that and matches the description of a possible shooter...what are the cops supposed to do? Does he have a sign saying I’m an honors student?

Again, these are problems that people refuse to look at, instead try to use crutches as you have here to not have to do that. Also, who generally runs those areas? Democrats. Democrat mayors, Democrat city councils. Now, I’m not saying republicans wouldn’t be doing the same. It’s very possible they would be. However that’s not the point of the discussion.

As had been discussed elsewhere, what is happening in the inner cities is basically a plantation mentality. The city managers are the overseers. They provide basic necessities (welfare) that perpetuate the cycle of hopelessness. There is no real effort to advocate for strong families because this may eventually curb this cycle. Thus the children, the majority who probably don’t even know who their fathers are cannot make it out.

These are the real discussions that need to happen and drastic changes are needed.

[ermocrate]

No I’m arguing that people want to take the easiest way out. Instead of confronting the real problem, they resurrect a fairly dead issue, insofar as it being a common problem anymore.

The truth gets twisted by a lot of people.

Did you know you can be one of those people? Or you think you are the truth holder?

Most of the black men are killed by the black man, most of the white men are killed from white men. Don't you think it's a matter of context?

And how did you explain all the social disparity between the ethnic groups? Black are just lazy don't want to study in college, don't want to work or does this depend on the tan?

I’m not really sure where you are going with this to be honest. Most murders are intra race. The disparity issue is quite hard to describe without hurting feelings on one side or the other. I fully disavow any statement saying any race is lazy. Period. For anyone to think that is beyond my comprehension.

No, a majority of these black on black and minority murders happen in lower income areas. It’s a cycle that some are able to escape while a large minority never even have a chance. This is due to so many factors, but the biggest is the city managers. They, probably for monetary reasons, don’t want to do anything to solve the problem. Again, that’s just a small part.

While you are pretty rational on this whole topic you seem to deny the existence of social inequality and the racism that still lives in the back of a lot of people. This is something not really marginal into the whole American system that has showed that his values(or the value most people talk about because US constitution is so messy that I haven't read it properly) have been in a huge part disattended during the history of the country and still are. There are plenty of flaws in the US system that are not going to be corrected anyway because of money (free healthcare for example, instead of the doctors being almost free and paid from the collectivity they are one of the more proficous business because the can help you not to die shifting a potential benefactor to the most cinic business man) but there are some others that you can correct with a lot of less money but with a bigger effort, just seems like nobody wants to do that.

[ermocrate]

Grandmothers can’t go out at night and cops don’t come when called because.....most of them are stuck in a war zone. Also, most of the worst areas in the country for these types of areas are...LA, Chicago and other places where the criminals carry firearms yet the citizens aren’t really allowed to. So that’s generally breeds that type of attitude. Also, when grandmas 13 year old honor student is walking home in an area like that and matches the description of a possible shooter...what are the cops supposed to do? Does he have a sign saying I’m an honors student?

Again, these are problems that people refuse to look at, instead try to use crutches as you have here to not have to do that. Also, who generally runs those areas? Democrats. Democrat mayors, Democrat city councils. Now, I’m not saying republicans wouldn’t be doing the same. It’s very possible they would be. However that’s not the point of the discussion.

As had been discussed elsewhere, what is happening in the inner cities is basically a plantation mentality. The city managers are the overseers. They provide basic necessities (welfare) that perpetuate the cycle of hopelessness. There is no real effort to advocate for strong families because this may eventually curb this cycle. Thus the children, the majority who probably don’t even know who their fathers are cannot make it out.

These are the real discussions that need to happen and drastic changes are needed.

What did you think it's the reason why a criminal carrying a firearm is so common in the US and not so common in other civilized countries? Here nobody carries a gun beside Police and members of criminal organizations, you can't find an handgun anywhere beside very few stores, you need to have a reason to buy a weapon(like you are a security guard or you trasport precious metals by yourself) and the guns are constantly counted from the authorities in the stores to make sure they haven't sold any illegally. If you can't buy a gun in LA but you can buy one in Alabama(that's just an example) all the criminals will go there and buy it. You're right on the fact that you need drastic changes, killing innocent people is not the solution, is something that may prevent this changes from happening because give people the impression that does not matter how much they struggle to elevate themseves, they will always have a target on the back.

[Parliament10]

So let me take it back tot he social issues this thread is really about.

Assuming that the statistics bear out that there are indeed biases against black people in the US, that cannot be accounted for by other socio-economic factors: what is the solution? what can be done in terms of policy that will help?

Not only do endless statistics definitively prove bias and racism on endless fronts, statistics do not tell the story of un- or under-reported crimes, or many of the thousands of ways in which racism is insidiously embedded on our society and its institutions.

I think anyone in this discussion should make it a point to spend more time in the hood, for lack of a better way to put it. You will very not likely get robbed if you are there in the daytime, acting correctly.

Talk to people about their lives. Chances are, it will all make sense then. When you hear grandmothers talk about how they can't go outside at night, and how 911 doesn't come when they call, and how their 13yo honor student grandson was made to lie spread-eagled on the ground by police with a drawn gun on them.

What happens in these communities is not right. Like, deeply and profoundly so. And denying that is takes place, or being mad at them for being upset about it? 100% inexcusable.

Why do people expect people to salute a flag that represents their exploitation and oppression? No, really?

Grandmothers can’t go out at night and cops don’t come when called because.....most of them are stuck in a war zone. Also, most of the worst areas in the country for these types of areas are...LA, Chicago and other places where the criminals carry firearms yet the citizens aren’t really allowed to. So that’s generally breeds that type of attitude. Also, when grandmas 13 year old honor student is walking home in an area like that and matches the description of a possible shooter...what are the cops supposed to do? Does he have a sign saying I’m an honors student?

Again, these are problems that people refuse to look at, instead try to use crutches as you have here to not have to do that. Also, who generally runs those areas? Democrats. Democrat mayors, Democrat city councils. Now, I’m not saying republicans wouldn’t be doing the same. It’s very possible they would be. However that’s not the point of the discussion.

As had been discussed elsewhere, what is happening in the inner cities is basically a plantation mentality. The city managers are the overseers. They provide basic necessities (welfare) that perpetuate the cycle of hopelessness. There is no real effort to advocate for strong families because this may eventually curb this cycle. Thus the children, the majority who probably don’t even know who their fathers are cannot make it out.

These are the real discussions that need to happen and drastic changes are needed.

These are very racist statements.
It reminds me of the character "Archie Bunker".

"plantation mentality."
"Thus the children, the majority who probably don’t even know who their fathers are cannot make it out."

Where did you get this story?


This Thread, has nothing to do with the politics, that you name.
And this Thread is Not about an isolated incident.

It's specifically, about Athletes taking a stand (or knee), against injustices that they perceive.
The Injustices are Real. The Protests are Real.

All this other stuff, that you're talking about.
Doesn't have a place here.

Find another home, for your Rhetoric.
Stick to the Subject.

[SeizeCoup]

I think there needs to be real dialog to make any progress, you know, people talking face to face. Celebrities/Athletes and regular people as well. All these tweets, and subtweets, passive-aggressive, and aggressive-aggressive sound bites, etc, has gotten out of control.

We've taken the human element out of things. (as I sit here typing behind a computer screen, while simultaneously texting friends on my phone...)

At the end of the day the stuff that is important about us, our dreams, our insecurities, our basic human needs, are pretty much the same across the board. Breaking down biases caused by segregation (geographically, socioeconomically) needs to become a priority. The more we mix, collaborate, create together, the better our chances of having a more unified country.

[GWVan]

I think there needs to be real dialog to make any progress, you know, people talking face to face. Celebrities/Athletes and regular people as well. All these tweets, and subtweets, passive-aggressive, and aggressive-aggressive sound bites, etc, has gotten out of control.

We've taken the human element out of things. (as I sit here typing behind a computer screen, while simultaneously texting friends on my phone...)

At the end of the day the stuff that is important about us, our dreams, our insecurities, our basic human needs, are pretty much the same across the board. Breaking down biases caused by segregation (geographically, socioeconomically) needs to become a priority. The more we mix, collaborate, create together, the better our chances of having a more unified country.

Progress can only be achieved by putting yourself in the shoes of your opposition. Realizing that their circumstances have led them to a completely different set of perspectives and bias than your own and gaining an understanding of where they are coming from is the first step. Until you make the effort you are the problem.

I think my perspective may differ from most others on this board, so I am willing to offer up my viewpoint in able to better promote understanding. I am 57, white, middle class, semi-retired, and ex-military. I did not grow up privileged and do know what it is like to not know where your next meal is coming from. Everything I have and have achieved was by my own sweat. No one gave me a leg up because of my race, religion, or background, in some cases it has been the opposite. I was raised to be color blind because of experiences my mother had as a young adult that shaped her perspective. I have a mixed race, half Asian, half African adopted daughter who melts my heart just thinking about her.

Athletes are expressing their discontent with the current state of racial equality in the United States by kneeling during the national anthem. This is their right and they should be fully supported in their actions. However, freedom of speech does not guarantee you freedom from consequences. It is right to articulate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship. The very choice of kneeling for the national anthem is made because it has consequences, that it is a controversial act, otherwise we would not be talking about it. Those who are in opposition to you have the right to voice that opposition as well, even if they occupy the white house and are idiots. If you have violated terms of your employment or membership in any organization, they have the right to terminate your employment or membership.

It should be recognized that if you are from the older generation it is an absolute insult for someone to disrespect the flag and the national anthem, that it is an insult to the military and their sacrifice. You saying that is not your intention does not change the fact that it is an insult from their perspective. I have a particular distrust of nationalism despite my service and it does not bother me as much but I 100% understand their perspective.

In understanding this point of view it is important to understand that the ability to restructure your perspective diminishes greatly as you age. I think this makes an act that is so insulting to an older generation counter productive and ill advised. All it is doing is deepening the divide.

I agree that the racial divide is a problem that must be at the forefront of our consciousness. I also believe that it is correct for privileged athletes to use their notoriety and money to address social injustices. But this is getting us no where, attack the problem. There are still thousands of African Americans unjustly imprisoned due mostly to inadequate legal representation. The NCAA an institution that makes millions of dollars for the work of young athletes, predominantly African American, who they do not compensate justly for their services. There are systemic problems on the use of force and racism in law enforcement across this country. Demanding solutions is appropriate. Pissing of old white people really isn't the solution.

How's that for a morning rant.

[fallguy]

I think there needs to be real dialog to make any progress, you know, people talking face to face. Celebrities/Athletes and regular people as well. All these tweets, and subtweets, passive-aggressive, and aggressive-aggressive sound bites, etc, has gotten out of control.

We've taken the human element out of things. (as I sit here typing behind a computer screen, while simultaneously texting friends on my phone...)

At the end of the day the stuff that is important about us, our dreams, our insecurities, our basic human needs, are pretty much the same across the board. Breaking down biases caused by segregation (geographically, socioeconomically) needs to become a priority. The more we mix, collaborate, create together, the better our chances of having a more unified country.

It should be recognized that if you are from the older generation it is an absolute insult for someone to disrespect the flag and the national anthem, that it is an insult to the military and their sacrifice. You saying that is not your intention does not change the fact that it is an insult from their perspective. I have a particular distrust of nationalism despite my service and it does not bother me as much but I 100% understand their perspective.

In understanding this point of view it is important to understand that the ability to restructure your perspective diminishes greatly as you age. I think this makes an act that is so insulting to an older generation counter productive and ill advised. All it is doing is deepening the divide.

Nice post.

Cut it down to the points I wanted to respond to.

The thing that we're increasingly seeing is that marginalized groups, particularly their activist segments, are not going to play by old rules of decorum. They are going to cut a new path. That is going to be uncomfortable if not enraging for those who are older - and it's only going to intensify as divides and inequities are further identified, codified and targeted.

Still, I think this is the best path forward. The future belongs to the young and they will shape it, as have previous generations, in their image.

[fallguy]

I think there needs to be real dialog to make any progress, you know, people talking face to face. Celebrities/Athletes and regular people as well. All these tweets, and subtweets, passive-aggressive, and aggressive-aggressive sound bites, etc, has gotten out of control.

We've taken the human element out of things. (as I sit here typing behind a computer screen, while simultaneously texting friends on my phone...)

At the end of the day the stuff that is important about us, our dreams, our insecurities, our basic human needs, are pretty much the same across the board. Breaking down biases caused by segregation (geographically, socioeconomically) needs to become a priority. The more we mix, collaborate, create together, the better our chances of having a more unified country.

It should be recognized that if you are from the older generation it is an absolute insult for someone to disrespect the flag and the national anthem, that it is an insult to the military and their sacrifice. You saying that is not your intention does not change the fact that it is an insult from their perspective. I have a particular distrust of nationalism despite my service and it does not bother me as much but I 100% understand their perspective.

In understanding this point of view it is important to understand that the ability to restructure your perspective diminishes greatly as you age. I think this makes an act that is so insulting to an older generation counter productive and ill advised. All it is doing is deepening the divide.

Nice post.

Cut it down to the points I wanted to respond to.

The thing that we're increasingly seeing is that marginalized groups, particularly their activist segments, are not going to play by old rules of decorum. They are going to cut a new path. That is going to be uncomfortable if not enraging for those who are older - and it's only going to intensify as divides and inequities are further identified, codified and targeted.

Still, I think this is the best path forward. The future belongs to the young and they will shape it, as have previous generations, in their image.

[fallguy]

It should be recognized that if you are from the older generation it is an absolute insult for someone to disrespect the flag and the national anthem, that it is an insult to the military and their sacrifice. You saying that is not your intention does not change the fact that it is an insult from their perspective. I have a particular distrust of nationalism despite my service and it does not bother me as much but I 100% understand their perspective.

In understanding this point of view it is important to understand that the ability to restructure your perspective diminishes greatly as you age. I think this makes an act that is so insulting to an older generation counter productive and ill advised. All it is doing is deepening the divide.

Nice post.

Cut it down to the points I wanted to respond to.

The thing that we're increasingly seeing is that marginalized groups, particularly their activist segments, are not going to play by old rules of decorum. They are going to cut a new path. That is going to be uncomfortable if not enraging for those who are older - and it's only going to intensify as divides and inequities are further identified, codified and targeted.

Still, I think this is the best path forward. The future belongs to the young and they will shape it, as have previous generations, in their image.

[fallguy]

Deleted

[fallguy]

[quote="fallguy"][quote="fallguy"][quote="GWVan"]

Who a whole list of repeated posts. How do you delete these things?

[GWVan]

I think there needs to be real dialog to make any progress, you know, people talking face to face. Celebrities/Athletes and regular people as well. All these tweets, and subtweets, passive-aggressive, and aggressive-aggressive sound bites, etc, has gotten out of control.

We've taken the human element out of things. (as I sit here typing behind a computer screen, while simultaneously texting friends on my phone...)

At the end of the day the stuff that is important about us, our dreams, our insecurities, our basic human needs, are pretty much the same across the board. Breaking down biases caused by segregation (geographically, socioeconomically) needs to become a priority. The more we mix, collaborate, create together, the better our chances of having a more unified country.

It should be recognized that if you are from the older generation it is an absolute insult for someone to disrespect the flag and the national anthem, that it is an insult to the military and their sacrifice. You saying that is not your intention does not change the fact that it is an insult from their perspective. I have a particular distrust of nationalism despite my service and it does not bother me as much but I 100% understand their perspective.

In understanding this point of view it is important to understand that the ability to restructure your perspective diminishes greatly as you age. I think this makes an act that is so insulting to an older generation counter productive and ill advised. All it is doing is deepening the divide.

Nice post.

Cut it down to the points I wanted to respond to.

The thing that we're increasingly seeing is that marginalized groups, particularly their activist segments, are not going to play by old rules of decorum. They are going to cut a new path. That is going to be uncomfortable if not enraging for those who are older - and it's only going to intensify as divides and inequities are further identified, codified and targeted.

Still, I think this is the best path forward. The future belongs to the young and they will shape it, as have previous generations, in their image.

I agree the future belongs to the young people. I'm going to tell you how to fix it as well. Pick an age and never ever vote for someone older. 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, don't care what the age is, just pick it and stick to it. Have you seen the dinosaurs running this country? Do you think you will get them to change their perspective? Do you think their experience is a help or hindrance at this point? If the two parties offer up two dinosaurs find another party and vote for them. Or take the top 5 candidates and just vote for the youngest.

[truth18]

I think there needs to be real dialog to make any progress, you know, people talking face to face. Celebrities/Athletes and regular people as well. All these tweets, and subtweets, passive-aggressive, and aggressive-aggressive sound bites, etc, has gotten out of control.

We've taken the human element out of things. (as I sit here typing behind a computer screen, while simultaneously texting friends on my phone...)

At the end of the day the stuff that is important about us, our dreams, our insecurities, our basic human needs, are pretty much the same across the board. Breaking down biases caused by segregation (geographically, socioeconomically) needs to become a priority. The more we mix, collaborate, create together, the better our chances of having a more unified country.

It should be recognized that if you are from the older generation it is an absolute insult for someone to disrespect the flag and the national anthem, that it is an insult to the military and their sacrifice. You saying that is not your intention does not change the fact that it is an insult from their perspective. I have a particular distrust of nationalism despite my service and it does not bother me as much but I 100% understand their perspective.

In understanding this point of view it is important to understand that the ability to restructure your perspective diminishes greatly as you age. I think this makes an act that is so insulting to an older generation counter productive and ill advised. All it is doing is deepening the divide.

Nice post.

Cut it down to the points I wanted to respond to.

The thing that we're increasingly seeing is that marginalized groups, particularly their activist segments, are not going to play by old rules of decorum. They are going to cut a new path. That is going to be uncomfortable if not enraging for those who are older - and it's only going to intensify as divides and inequities are further identified, codified and targeted.

Still, I think this is the best path forward. The future belongs to the young and they will shape it, as have previous generations, in their image.

Just want to repeat a fact that seems useful in the discussion you two are having:

Nate Boyer, a white Green Beret, and Kaepernick's teammate, is the one who suggested this type of kneeling protest as a middle ground of respect (kneeling is a sign of respect in the military). Previously, Kaepernick had been sitting on the bench.

[fallguy]

It should be recognized that if you are from the older generation it is an absolute insult for someone to disrespect the flag and the national anthem, that it is an insult to the military and their sacrifice. You saying that is not your intention does not change the fact that it is an insult from their perspective. I have a particular distrust of nationalism despite my service and it does not bother me as much but I 100% understand their perspective.

In understanding this point of view it is important to understand that the ability to restructure your perspective diminishes greatly as you age. I think this makes an act that is so insulting to an older generation counter productive and ill advised. All it is doing is deepening the divide.

Nice post.

Cut it down to the points I wanted to respond to.

The thing that we're increasingly seeing is that marginalized groups, particularly their activist segments, are not going to play by old rules of decorum. They are going to cut a new path. That is going to be uncomfortable if not enraging for those who are older - and it's only going to intensify as divides and inequities are further identified, codified and targeted.

Still, I think this is the best path forward. The future belongs to the young and they will shape it, as have previous generations, in their image.

Just want to repeat a fact that seems useful in the discussion you two are having:

Nate Boyer, a white Green Beret, and Kaepernick's teammate, is the one who suggested this type of kneeling protest as a middle ground of respect (kneeling is a sign of respect in the military). Previously, Kaepernick had been sitting on the bench.

Is he an outlier or representative? I don't know.

It seems like a lot of military folks support this protest. But that's just my observation.

[GWVan]

Just want to repeat a fact that seems useful in the discussion you two are having:

Nate Boyer, a white Green Beret, and Kaepernick's teammate, is the one who suggested this type of kneeling protest as a middle ground of respect (kneeling is a sign of respect in the military). Previously, Kaepernick had been sitting on the bench.

Makes sense, you missed a good part of my point. Nate Boyer was born in 1981. The Army Ranger flipping out at the Elks lodge over this insult was born in the 1931.

[truth18]

Nice post.

Cut it down to the points I wanted to respond to.

The thing that we're increasingly seeing is that marginalized groups, particularly their activist segments, are not going to play by old rules of decorum. They are going to cut a new path. That is going to be uncomfortable if not enraging for those who are older - and it's only going to intensify as divides and inequities are further identified, codified and targeted.

Still, I think this is the best path forward. The future belongs to the young and they will shape it, as have previous generations, in their image.

Just want to repeat a fact that seems useful in the discussion you two are having:

Nate Boyer, a white Green Beret, and Kaepernick's teammate, is the one who suggested this type of kneeling protest as a middle ground of respect (kneeling is a sign of respect in the military). Previously, Kaepernick had been sitting on the bench.

Is he an outlier or representative? I don't know.

It seems like a lot of military folks support this protest. But that's just my observation.

He's neither, he's literally the guy who created the kneeling protest with the expressed purpose of respect and protest, it's just that, being a good person and a white man and all, he didn't realize how much people would turn this completely around.

All my friends who have served support the protest but that's only four people so who really knows.

[GWVan]

Just want to repeat a fact that seems useful in the discussion you two are having:

Nate Boyer, a white Green Beret, and Kaepernick's teammate, is the one who suggested this type of kneeling protest as a middle ground of respect (kneeling is a sign of respect in the military). Previously, Kaepernick had been sitting on the bench.

Makes sense, you missed a good part of my point. Nate Boyer was born in 1981. The Army Ranger flipping out at the Elks lodge over this insult was born in the 1931.

Submitted before I finished. The difference in their perspective is light years.