Did MJ really go against tougher competition?

[Sark]

The talent is better now than it's ever been.

That's purely a subjective opinion.

The league is more white and Euro than ever before. That's objectively true.

How many all time great Euros are there compared to how many have entered the league? Pau, Dirk, Manu. Who else is all time great?

[mysticOscar]

The talent is better now than it's ever been.

That's purely a subjective opinion.

The league is more white and Euro than ever before. That's objectively true.

How many all time great Euros are there compared to how many have entered the league? Pau, Dirk, Manu. Who else is all time great?

Also now players are drafted with only 1 year college experience at 19yo vs 21/22 yo in 80s and early 90s.

[homecourtloss]

What do you think is going to happen if Lebron continues to lose in all of those Finals trips? More things for his fans to push under the rug when they try to argue him against Jordan and the other greats, yet you say people are going to start coming around? No. That will not happen, at least on a global stand like you're trying to make it out to be. Why? because no matter how you try to spin it those Finals losses with him at the lead will always be there and will always mean a lot towards his legacy. Why? because he had that talent around him and they simply couldn't get it done.

Bron was favoured to win 2 finals...he won 3.
Jordan had a cakewalk in every final compared to LeBron

Yet 2 of those 6 titles against the Suns and Jazz came down to a final basket in the final seconds of game 6. If that honestly sounds like a cakewalk to you than you really don't have a clue what you're talking about.

The. Ills were favored in every series with the ‘93 Finals being close. They were either comfortable or heavy favorites in every other series.

[fansinceforever]

There are more people playing basketball, more skills development programs, more gyms and teams for kids to play on, better sports medicine, conditioning and weight training programs, etc, etc, etc.

How could the talent not be better?

[nk657]

MJ's competition is vastly overrated. Imagine LeBron facing the Clippers (with CP3) every year in the finals. That is the level that those Jazz teams were.

lol. I laugh I don’t want to be offensive, but your post is like…false....Not only Sloan's Jazz is the most underrated team of all time but if they played with any of the current teams in the league now they would sweep everyone easy.. I mean Do you ACTUALLY REMEMBER the basket they were playing? It was so perfect you thought they were playing basketball in Nintendo.

I remember my self-staying up all night in the summer of 97 , it was 6 am with the time difference and i had to go next day to give an exam in the uni, i stayed all night awake and when the prof asked me why you are yawning (it was oral exam as well) i told him that i was watching MJ vs Stocton, and he was such lover of Utah 's play that he actually tortured me asking me the most difficult questions ever knowing I was rooting for Bulls.
The competition in 90s and 80s was very real. It was Mj and Pipen who destroyed competition by winning and winning. And 20 years after everyone thinks that those rings were won easily against hall of famers like Stockton and Malone. I am wathching todays power forwards like Draymond Green who can’t shoot a proper shot outside the paint, and they compare him with Barkley, and Curry who plays defense with his eyes they compare him with Stockton. You read bullshits in every post, it is unbelievable. Those are not opinions. Its just ignorance.

[KingFox]

I say in today's era no way does MJ get 6 rings. No way. 3-4 tops.

well yea, cuz he wouldn't be running to some random team just to hold hands with another superstar and
play grab ass before every game

He was a true competitor

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

To properly analyse this would take days.

Or threads.

Like, hundreds of threads.

And just to make sure we get our facts straight, we should all say the same things in every thread, just to be sure.

[LivingLegend]

Again, the worst team LeBron has faced in the Finals had almost twice the Net Efficiency of the best team Jordan had to play.

The mid-late 90s was a dumpster fire era of basketball and I truly believe Jordan only wins 3 rings if he played in any different era.

[Franco]

MJ's competition is vastly overrated. Imagine LeBron facing the Clippers (with CP3) every year in the finals. That is the level that those Jazz teams were.

lol. I laugh I don’t want to be offensive, but your post is like…false....Not only Sloan's Jazz is the most underrated team of all time but if they played with any of the current teams in the league now they would sweep everyone easy.. I mean Do you ACTUALLY REMEMBER the basket they were playing? It was so perfect you thought they were playing basketball in Nintendo.

I remember my self-staying up all night in the summer of 97 , it was 6 am with the time difference and i had to go next day to give an exam in the uni, i stayed all night awake and when the prof asked me why you are yawning (it was oral exam as well) i told him that i was watching MJ vs Stocton, and he was such lover of Utah 's play that he actually tortured me asking me the most difficult questions ever knowing I was rooting for Bulls.
The competition in 90s and 80s was very real. It was Mj and Pipen who destroyed competition by winning and winning. And 20 years after everyone thinks that those rings were won easily against hall of famers like Stockton and Malone. I am wathching todays power forwards like Draymond Green who can’t shoot a proper shot outside the paint, and they compare him with Barkley, and Curry who plays defense with his eyes they compare him with Stockton. You read **** in every post, it is unbelievable. Those are not opinions. Its just ignorance.

LMAO, in what planet???

The Jazz would be lucky to get a single game against the Warriors

[Pennebaker]

You mean an old, past-their-prime Celtics team who hadn't won a championship in years? (Basically the same as what Jordan did with the Pistons, except the Pistons core was younger when Jordan was going up against them)

You're forgetting quite a few things. That "old, past-their-prime" Celtics team still made it to the Eastern Conference Finals as a 4th seed. The narrative at the time was that those Celtics were comprised of composed savvy veterans that knew how to win. The Heat, on the other hand, had just lost Chris Bosh for the ECF series due to injury. Dwyane Wade was also playing injured. So that left LeBron James versus Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo.

And when those Celtics went up 3-1 nobody was saying that they were old and past their prime. That only came out of critics' mouths after LeBron ripped their hearts out.

You're also wrong about the Pistons comparison because Isaiah Thomas was playing injured for most of the end of that season. His injury was well covered at the time and many predicted that the Pistons reign was going to end because of it, even long before the playoffs began. This is what was written in a newspaper about Thomas' injury in January of 1991:

Their (The Pistons) chances of winning the Eastern Conference championship - or even the Central Division title - may have vanished the instant the announcement was made that Thomas would be reporting to sick bay instead of the scorer's table for the next three months.

So the 1991 Jordan/Pippen/Grant Bulls faced a hobbled Pistons in the ECF. And the 2012 Garnett/Pierce/Allen Celtics faced a hobbled Heat in the ECF. The difference between Jordan and LeBron here is obvious.

See above. You mean those geriatric Spurs with Tim and Manu being 36 and 35 respectively? How exactly do you reconcile this with the criticisms against Jordan against the Pistons?

Those "geriatric" Spurs that lost to LeBron were the #1 seed in the West (62 wins) the very next season, and then they won the NBA title. I.e. LeBron beat that Spurs team when they were still championship quality. They didn't play like geriatrics.

The Pistons that Jordan beat in 1991 were in no way on the level of either the 2013 San Antonio Spurs (whom LeBron beat in the Finals) or the 2014 San Antonio Spurs (whom LeBron didn't beat in the Finals).

But he lost against a team that only won 67 games the very next season, 4-1. Why's that?

Well, obviously because Golden State added Kevin Durant and because LeBron's #2 and #3 were still notoriously bad defensive players that often need to be taken out of the game because they are so bad on defense. In other words, the addition of KD to Golden State made up for everything that LeBron had been doing to make up for the fact that he wasn't playing with good defensive teammates.

This is why the addition of Crowder (and to a lesser extent Jeff Green) was so important to Cleveland.

Actually, as shown above, Jordan had very similar situations in his championship career. See Pistons/Celtics.

Jordan never beat the Bird/McHale/Parrish Celtics in the playoffs. He only got swept by them. And, as I mentioned above, in 1991 the Pistons were playing with an injured Isaiah Thomas who missed several months of that season. Those are poor examples.

[OdomFan]

Bron was favoured to win 2 finals...he won 3.
Jordan had a cakewalk in every final compared to LeBron

Yet 2 of those 6 titles against the Suns and Jazz came down to a final basket in the final seconds of game 6. If that honestly sounds like a cakewalk to you than you really don't have a clue what you're talking about.

The. Bulls* were favored in every series with the ‘93 Finals being close. They were either comfortable or heavy favorites in every other series.

I don't care who was favored the point is it wasn't an easy series. So no that 93 Suns or 98 Jazz wouldn't just lose to anybody easily. Not even your beloved modern teams.

[nk657]

MJ's competition is vastly overrated. Imagine LeBron facing the Clippers (with CP3) every year in the finals. That is the level that those Jazz teams were.

lol. I laugh I don’t want to be offensive, but your post is like…false....Not only Sloan's Jazz is the most underrated team of all time but if they played with any of the current teams in the league now they would sweep everyone easy.. I mean Do you ACTUALLY REMEMBER the basket they were playing? It was so perfect you thought they were playing basketball in Nintendo.

I remember my self-staying up all night in the summer of 97 , it was 6 am with the time difference and i had to go next day to give an exam in the uni, i stayed all night awake and when the prof asked me why you are yawning (it was oral exam as well) i told him that i was watching MJ vs Stocton, and he was such lover of Utah 's play that he actually tortured me asking me the most difficult questions ever knowing I was rooting for Bulls.
The competition in 90s and 80s was very real. It was Mj and Pipen who destroyed competition by winning and winning. And 20 years after everyone thinks that those rings were won easily against hall of famers like Stockton and Malone. I am wathching todays power forwards like Draymond Green who can’t shoot a proper shot outside the paint, and they compare him with Barkley, and Curry who plays defense with his eyes they compare him with Stockton. You read **** in every post, it is unbelievable. Those are not opinions. Its just ignorance.

LMAO, in what planet???

The Jazz would be lucky to get a single game against the Warriors

It doesnt make any sense to continue the argument about Jazzz and about how bad they were. They are people who live in the Darkness and they are people who live in the Light. And I am afraid you are one of the night people. Warriors defense is so bad comparing to older teams that they would loose even from 90s Vancouver Grizzlies which was the worst team of thar decade. Everyone has their opinion of course.. The thing is that no one plays real defense now. You get touched and you go to the free throws line.

[Franco]

lol. I laugh I don’t want to be offensive, but your post is like…false....Not only Sloan's Jazz is the most underrated team of all time but if they played with any of the current teams in the league now they would sweep everyone easy.. I mean Do you ACTUALLY REMEMBER the basket they were playing? It was so perfect you thought they were playing basketball in Nintendo.

I remember my self-staying up all night in the summer of 97 , it was 6 am with the time difference and i had to go next day to give an exam in the uni, i stayed all night awake and when the prof asked me why you are yawning (it was oral exam as well) i told him that i was watching MJ vs Stocton, and he was such lover of Utah 's play that he actually tortured me asking me the most difficult questions ever knowing I was rooting for Bulls.
The competition in 90s and 80s was very real. It was Mj and Pipen who destroyed competition by winning and winning. And 20 years after everyone thinks that those rings were won easily against hall of famers like Stockton and Malone. I am wathching todays power forwards like Draymond Green who can’t shoot a proper shot outside the paint, and they compare him with Barkley, and Curry who plays defense with his eyes they compare him with Stockton. You read **** in every post, it is unbelievable. Those are not opinions. Its just ignorance.

LMAO, in what planet???

The Jazz would be lucky to get a single game against the Warriors

It doesnt make any sense to continue the argument about Jazzz and about how bad they were. They are people who live in the Darkness and they are people who live in the Light. And I am afraid you are one of the night people. Warriors defense is so bad comparing to older teams that they would loose even from 90s Vancouver Grizzlies which was the worst team of thar decade. Everyone has their opinion of course.. The thing is that no one plays real defense now. You get touched and you go to the free throws line.

I don't even understand what the **** you're trying to imply, even if the Warriors really were so bad at defending (when in reality they're a great defensive team) they could win a series against the Jazz based on mismatches and offensive prowess alone.

[OdomFan]

lol. I laugh I don’t want to be offensive, but your post is like…false....Not only Sloan's Jazz is the most underrated team of all time but if they played with any of the current teams in the league now they would sweep everyone easy.. I mean Do you ACTUALLY REMEMBER the basket they were playing? It was so perfect you thought they were playing basketball in Nintendo.

I remember my self-staying up all night in the summer of 97 , it was 6 am with the time difference and i had to go next day to give an exam in the uni, i stayed all night awake and when the prof asked me why you are yawning (it was oral exam as well) i told him that i was watching MJ vs Stocton, and he was such lover of Utah 's play that he actually tortured me asking me the most difficult questions ever knowing I was rooting for Bulls.
The competition in 90s and 80s was very real. It was Mj and Pipen who destroyed competition by winning and winning. And 20 years after everyone thinks that those rings were won easily against hall of famers like Stockton and Malone. I am wathching todays power forwards like Draymond Green who can’t shoot a proper shot outside the paint, and they compare him with Barkley, and Curry who plays defense with his eyes they compare him with Stockton. You read **** in every post, it is unbelievable. Those are not opinions. Its just ignorance.

LMAO, in what planet???

The Jazz would be lucky to get a single game against the Warriors

It doesnt make any sense to continue the argument about Jazzz and about how bad they were. They are people who live in the Darkness and they are people who live in the Light. And I am afraid you are one of the night people. Warriors defense is so bad comparing to older teams that they would loose even from 90s Vancouver Grizzlies which was the worst team of thar decade. Everyone has their opinion of course.. The thing is that no one plays real defense now. You get touched and you go to the free throws line.

Ok I won't go as far as to say ANY team but majority of the elite teams from the 90s would most definitely be able to match up well and defeat the Warriors or any modern day champion from the last 5 years.

[Triples333]

LMAO, in what planet???

The Jazz would be lucky to get a single game against the Warriors

It doesnt make any sense to continue the argument about Jazzz and about how bad they were. They are people who live in the Darkness and they are people who live in the Light. And I am afraid you are one of the night people. Warriors defense is so bad comparing to older teams that they would loose even from 90s Vancouver Grizzlies which was the worst team of thar decade. Everyone has their opinion of course.. The thing is that no one plays real defense now. You get touched and you go to the free throws line.

Ok I won't go as far as to say ANY team but majority of the elite teams from the 90s would most definitely be able to match up well and defeat the Warriors or any modern day champion from the last 5 years.

Lmfao at this nonsense. At the very least understand the fact that we have elite players who played in the 90's and in this era. Do you think Duncan and Pop just forgot how to play and coach basketball between 1997 and 5 years ago? Hint: the opposite is the case. As time went on they learned more and the game improved as a whole accordingly.

[LLJ]

He only dodged Hakeem from what I can recall. he played against most of the best in his generation.

[OdomFan]

It doesnt make any sense to continue the argument about Jazzz and about how bad they were. They are people who live in the Darkness and they are people who live in the Light. And I am afraid you are one of the night people. Warriors defense is so bad comparing to older teams that they would loose even from 90s Vancouver Grizzlies which was the worst team of thar decade. Everyone has their opinion of course.. The thing is that no one plays real defense now. You get touched and you go to the free throws line.

Ok I won't go as far as to say ANY team but majority of the elite teams from the 90s would most definitely be able to match up well and defeat the Warriors or any modern day champion from the last 5 years.

Lmfao at this nonsense. At the very least understand the fact that we have elite players who played in the 90's and in this era. Do you think Duncan and Pop just forgot how to play and coach basketball between 1997 and 5 years ago? Hint: the opposite is the case. As time went on they learned more and the game improved as a whole accordingly.

The game may have changed but that does not mean that the teams from the past wouldn't still be able to play the way they've been playing and win ball games against Modern teams. If you really think the Warriors or any other team you can name would just pick a part that Jazz team, Jordans Bulls, MVP Barkley's Suns, Magic and Kareems Lakers or Larry Birds Celtics than you're the one that sounds ridiculous here. Just another person overrating current players with no clue.

[Sark]

He only dodged Hakeem from what I can recall. he played against most of the best in his generation.

That's like saying Lebron dodged Kobe and the Lakers in 08, 09, 10.

How the hell can you control who makes it to the Finals in the other conference?

[OdomFan]

Right you play who you're giving to play against in every round. There's a lot of match ups that we as fans all dream to have gotten to seen throughout NBA history but when it comes down to it you gotta earn that W and if it's not meant to be it's not meant to be.

[Triples333]

Ok I won't go as far as to say ANY team but majority of the elite teams from the 90s would most definitely be able to match up well and defeat the Warriors or any modern day champion from the last 5 years.

Lmfao at this nonsense. At the very least understand the fact that we have elite players who played in the 90's and in this era. Do you think Duncan and Pop just forgot how to play and coach basketball between 1997 and 5 years ago? Hint: the opposite is the case. As time went on they learned more and the game improved as a whole accordingly.

The game may have changed but that does not mean that the teams from the past wouldn't still be able to play the way they've been playing and win ball games against Modern teams. If you really think the Warriors or any other team you can name would just pick a part that Jazz team, Jordans Bulls, MVP Barkley's Suns, Magic and Kareems Lakers or Larry Birds Celtics than you're the one that sounds ridiculous here. Just another person overrating current players with no clue.

You're back peddling here; there's a big difference between saying "a majority of the elite teams from the 90's would be able to match up with and defeat the Warriors" and then listing the very top teams from the 80's and 90's and insinuating that I said the Warriors would "just pick them apart". However, even against those top teams the Warriors would likely be the favorites going into the series. The Lakers and Celtics would probably have the best shot as it was pre 90's expansion and they were extremely stacked, and the Bulls of course would be a legitimate battle, but thinking "the majority of the elite teams from the 90's" would have a leg up on Golden State is just not the case. Even looking closer at a team like the Jazz, they just are not going to be able to beat Golden State. Their 4th best player was Byron Russell by the time they were competing for titles. Solid little player and a good defender, but he's definitely not a guy you have to worry about dropping 60 points in 3 quarters lol (or a stretch 4-5 hybrid DPOY if you want to entertain Draymond being the 4th best player on GS). Hell Hornacek was their 3rd best player and Klay/Draymond are both better than him too. You can debate the potency of Mailman/Stockton versus KD/Curry, but even there I'm taking the MVP's in their prime. You can do the same thing with every team of the 90's. Nobody had a 4th best player better than Klay. Nobody had a 5th best player better than Iguodala. No team had anything close to their shooting prowess as a whole. This was my time. I grew up watching all these guys. They were not as good as the Warriors.