The Draft (Postseason Edition): 1/16/31/59 (NEW POLL)

[JMac1]

I approach the Bagley vs. Jackson Jr debate the same way I approached Tatum vs. Isaac last year. Go for all NBA upside in the top 5, not superstar role player upside. Bagley’s ceiling is higher than JJJ, but his floor is lower.

Ding ding ding. Exactly. I wouldn't argue that. And I agree with you. Same with Bamba, his floor is higher than Young, but Young Ceiling is higher. For this Reason Doncic is number 1. High ceiling and floor. Ayton High ceiling and decent floor.

[lilfishi22]

I approach the Bagley vs. Jackson Jr debate the same way I approached Tatum vs. Isaac last year. Go for all NBA upside in the top 5, not superstar role player upside. Bagley’s ceiling is higher than JJJ, but his floor is lower.

I see it the other way. JJJ has a higher ceiling imo but floor is also lower. I think Bagley's floor is pretty high because he has natural scoring feel and ability but will be limited defensively. JJJ being so young has a ton of room to grow but will his offense ever be anything marginally above average? Will his defense translate into being a defensive anchor on a top 5 team? All I know is that Bagley can score and will very likely be able to score at the NBA level. I know JJJ is going to be a long project offensively (which may not pay off) and is defense is where he'll lift his ceiling but also lower his floor depending on how successfully he can adapt it to the NBA.

My problem with Bagley is that his defense could be traffic cone poor which is a problem when he's playing one of the big man positions. If you're a big man who can't play D, you're going to get exploited and when you're one of the last lines of defense, you become a detriment to team defense. On the other hand, at worst, JJJ might only be a 3PT shooter on offense which is still useable in many schemes.

[Sunsfan12]

Amare was lazy. Mobility is everything on defense at every level in every sport. If you can't move, you can't get there. You have to be there in order to have a chance. Horford was never a Okafor on defense. Horford is mobile.

You said Bagley can't play defense. Don't get hot at me. You could have said he doesn't play defense, but he can't? You could have said he isn't motivated to play D or is lazy or something. But a big that moves like him can play D. How much and against who will vary, but he is capable of playing D.

You may want to watch Horford play. To say he is mobile is laughable. Is he active? Yes, but there is no speed to his game whatsoever. Activity matters more than mobility. As you pointed out with Josh Jackson. Dude is very mobile but he isn’t active enough on defense. He got better as the year went on because he was more active. He didn’t gain speed or mobility. Obviously you have to have some degree of mobility to play the game. That’s common sense.

I understand that he COULD play defense. That wasn’t my point. Then you proceeded to say “nobody can”... which means can’t... at the top of the draft save a couple. Pointing that out doesn’t mean I’m getting hot at you.

Now you want to play the semantics game....You can be active all you want, you wont get there unless you are mobile. The fact that I have to explain this is getting kinda ridiculous. Active=moving Mobility=your ability to move. Pete Rose=Charlie Hustle, limit mobility, Lou Brock= I rest my case.

If active=mobility why did you list them as separate qualities? Go with your first instinct. Mobility means your ability to move. It doesn’t mean you’re actually moving. Active means you’re actually engaging in movement. Kinda sad I have to explain that.

[thamadkant]

I approach the Bagley vs. Jackson Jr debate the same way I approached Tatum vs. Isaac last year. Go for all NBA upside in the top 5, not superstar role player upside. Bagley’s ceiling is higher than JJJ, but his floor is lower.

I feel the opposite.

Bagley at the very best is worse passing Blake Griffin or Randle....

Best case Jackson Jr is Garnett without the mid range shot.

[WeekapaugGroove]

When it comes to developing bigs the guys that can be a positive on D can at least stay on the floor and allow for the offensive part of their games to come along. It's when guys are constantly missing assignments that it drives a coach crazy and gets guys pulled if your trying to win games... we can call that the marquees chriss experience

[thamadkant]

I approach the Bagley vs. Jackson Jr debate the same way I approached Tatum vs. Isaac last year. Go for all NBA upside in the top 5, not superstar role player upside. Bagley’s ceiling is higher than JJJ, but his floor is lower.

I see it the other way. JJJ has a higher ceiling imo but floor is also lower. I think Bagley's floor is pretty high because he has natural scoring feel and ability but will be limited defensively. JJJ being so young has a ton of room to grow but will his offense ever be anything marginally above average? Will his defense translate into being a defensive anchor on a top 5 team? All I know is that Bagley can score and will very likely be able to score at the NBA level. I know JJJ is going to be a long project offensively (which may not pay off) and is defense is where he'll lift his ceiling but also lower his floor depending on how successfully he can adapt it to the NBA.

My problem with Bagley is that his defense could be traffic cone poor which is a problem when he's playing one of the big man positions. If you're a big man who can't play D, you're going to get exploited and when you're one of the last lines of defense, you become a detriment to team defense. On the other hand, at worst, JJJ might only be a 3PT shooter on offense which is still useable in many schemes.

My issue is a big man who doesn't play defense in today's game is a backup big....

While rim protectors with other skills are vital.

[lilfishi22]

I approach the Bagley vs. Jackson Jr debate the same way I approached Tatum vs. Isaac last year. Go for all NBA upside in the top 5, not superstar role player upside. Bagley’s ceiling is higher than JJJ, but his floor is lower.

I see it the other way. JJJ has a higher ceiling imo but floor is also lower. I think Bagley's floor is pretty high because he has natural scoring feel and ability but will be limited defensively. JJJ being so young has a ton of room to grow but will his offense ever be anything marginally above average? Will his defense translate into being a defensive anchor on a top 5 team? All I know is that Bagley can score and will very likely be able to score at the NBA level. I know JJJ is going to be a long project offensively (which may not pay off) and is defense is where he'll lift his ceiling but also lower his floor depending on how successfully he can adapt it to the NBA.

My problem with Bagley is that his defense could be traffic cone poor which is a problem when he's playing one of the big man positions. If you're a big man who can't play D, you're going to get exploited and when you're one of the last lines of defense, you become a detriment to team defense. On the other hand, at worst, JJJ might only be a 3PT shooter on offense which is still useable in many schemes.

My issue is a big man who doesn't play defense in today's game is a backup big....

While rim protectors with other skills are vital.

Yes but being a rim protector even with other skills doesn't necessarily make you more than a back up big either.

[lilfishi22]

I approach the Bagley vs. Jackson Jr debate the same way I approached Tatum vs. Isaac last year. Go for all NBA upside in the top 5, not superstar role player upside. Bagley’s ceiling is higher than JJJ, but his floor is lower.

I feel the opposite.

Bagley at the very best is worse passing Blake Griffin or Randle....

Best case Jackson Jr is Garnett without the mid range shot.

You're entitled to your opinion but I do think you're selling JJJr astronomically high and selling Bagley super low.

I don't like looking at best case scenario because most NBA talents never reach that best case scenario. I prefer looking at likely scenarios which is neither reaching their potential but not hitting their floor either.

[JMac1]

You may want to watch Horford play. To say he is mobile is laughable. Is he active? Yes, but there is no speed to his game whatsoever. Activity matters more than mobility. As you pointed out with Josh Jackson. Dude is very mobile but he isn’t active enough on defense. He got better as the year went on because he was more active. He didn’t gain speed or mobility. Obviously you have to have some degree of mobility to play the game. That’s common sense.

I understand that he COULD play defense. That wasn’t my point. Then you proceeded to say “nobody can”... which means can’t... at the top of the draft save a couple. Pointing that out doesn’t mean I’m getting hot at you.

Now you want to play the semantics game....You can be active all you want, you wont get there unless you are mobile. The fact that I have to explain this is getting kinda ridiculous. Active=moving Mobility=your ability to move. Pete Rose=Charlie Hustle, limit mobility, Lou Brock= I rest my case.

If active=mobility why did you list them as separate qualities? Go with your first instinct. Mobility means your ability to move. It doesn’t mean you’re actually moving. Active means you’re actually engaging in movement. Kinda sad I have to explain that.

lol. You wont quit. Keep spinning my brotha. What ever it takes to not admit you are wrong. I hear ya.

[jcsunsfan]

Amare was lazy. Mobility is everything on defense at every level in every sport. If you can't move, you can't get there. You have to be there in order to have a chance. Horford was never a Okafor on defense. Horford is mobile.

You said Bagley can't play defense. Don't get hot at me. You could have said he doesn't play defense, but he can't? You could have said he isn't motivated to play D or is lazy or something. But a big that moves like him can play D. How much and against who will vary, but he is capable of playing D.

You may want to watch Horford play. To say he is mobile is laughable. Is he active? Yes, but there is no speed to his game whatsoever. Activity matters more than mobility. As you pointed out with Josh Jackson. Dude is very mobile but he isn’t active enough on defense. He got better as the year went on because he was more active. He didn’t gain speed or mobility. Obviously you have to have some degree of mobility to play the game. That’s common sense.

I understand that he COULD play defense. That wasn’t my point. Then you proceeded to say “nobody can”... which means can’t... at the top of the draft save a couple. Pointing that out doesn’t mean I’m getting hot at you.

Now you want to play the semantics game....You can be active all you want, you wont get there unless you are mobile. The fact that I have to explain this is getting kinda ridiculous. Active=moving Mobility=your ability to move. Pete Rose=Charlie Hustle, limit mobility, Lou Brock= I rest my case.

Well, you certainly made the case that you are an old geezer. It might be hard to find someone under 50 that recognizes those names let alone remembers anything about how they played.

I grant you. Bagley is big, mobile, and active. But he is not long and does not play effective defense. In fact, he seems to get lost on defense even playing under one of the best teaching coaches in the history of basketball. I like Bagley and I have him right there with JJJ, but there are legit concerns.

[jcsunsfan]

I approach the Bagley vs. Jackson Jr debate the same way I approached Tatum vs. Isaac last year. Go for all NBA upside in the top 5, not superstar role player upside. Bagley’s ceiling is higher than JJJ, but his floor is lower.

My take is just the opposite. JJJr is 6-11 with a 7-4 wingspan and his body is still immature, he is likely still growing. He is very active and mobile and he is already a better shooter than Bagley. Bagley will never be as long as JJJr and therefore his upside is limited. One of the common characteristics of the best big men in the NBA is that they are long as well as tall. I think JJJr has more of a chance to improve his offense than Bagley does his defense. I have concerns about Bagleys intelligence for the game. He seems lost on D. That is NOT because of coaching.

I think Bagley is going to be a double double machine. He will be a bigger, stronger, Kenneth Faried with better post skills. But JJJr while he has high bust potential also has AD type potential. He is more risk, but also the potential of more reward.

[thamadkant]

I see it the other way. JJJ has a higher ceiling imo but floor is also lower. I think Bagley's floor is pretty high because he has natural scoring feel and ability but will be limited defensively. JJJ being so young has a ton of room to grow but will his offense ever be anything marginally above average? Will his defense translate into being a defensive anchor on a top 5 team? All I know is that Bagley can score and will very likely be able to score at the NBA level. I know JJJ is going to be a long project offensively (which may not pay off) and is defense is where he'll lift his ceiling but also lower his floor depending on how successfully he can adapt it to the NBA.

My problem with Bagley is that his defense could be traffic cone poor which is a problem when he's playing one of the big man positions. If you're a big man who can't play D, you're going to get exploited and when you're one of the last lines of defense, you become a detriment to team defense. On the other hand, at worst, JJJ might only be a 3PT shooter on offense which is still useable in many schemes.

My issue is a big man who doesn't play defense in today's game is a backup big....

While rim protectors with other skills are vital.

Yes but being a rim protector even with other skills doesn't necessarily make you more than a back up big either.

This is subjective.

A team with perimeter oriented offense that needs It's big men to simply finish plays or passes and defend will make a shot blocking skillful big man a starter.

In teams with the Towns, Davis, Embiid etc... Then those big men with only shot blocking skills and other misc skills are relegated to the bench.

Capela or Jordan would not start over those types of big men.

[lilfishi22]

I like JJJr (have him above Bagley at #4 right now)......but man KG and now AD potential?







That's a hella hype train and not one I want to get tickets for

[JMac1]

You may want to watch Horford play. To say he is mobile is laughable. Is he active? Yes, but there is no speed to his game whatsoever. Activity matters more than mobility. As you pointed out with Josh Jackson. Dude is very mobile but he isn’t active enough on defense. He got better as the year went on because he was more active. He didn’t gain speed or mobility. Obviously you have to have some degree of mobility to play the game. That’s common sense.

I understand that he COULD play defense. That wasn’t my point. Then you proceeded to say “nobody can”... which means can’t... at the top of the draft save a couple. Pointing that out doesn’t mean I’m getting hot at you.

Now you want to play the semantics game....You can be active all you want, you wont get there unless you are mobile. The fact that I have to explain this is getting kinda ridiculous. Active=moving Mobility=your ability to move. Pete Rose=Charlie Hustle, limit mobility, Lou Brock= I rest my case.

Well, you certainly made the case that you are an old geezer. It might be hard to find someone under 50 that recognizes those names let alone remembers anything about how they played.

I grant you. Bagley is big, mobile, and active. But he is not long and does not play effective defense. In fact, he seems to get lost on defense even playing under one of the best teaching coaches in the history of basketball. I like Bagley and I have him right there with JJJ, but there are legit concerns.

49 to be exact. However, geezer I am not Thus I have seen more basketball than most here, so take it from me... Bagley>JJJ

[Frank Lee]

Resident Geezer checking in.....

Whoever we draft, they better know how to play basketball

Imagine if McDo-over would have selected Sabonis instead of Chriss....

I don’t want anymore ‘projects’ for a while

[JMac1]

Resident Geezer checking in.....

Whoever we draft, they better know how to play basketball

Imagine if McDo-over would have selected Sabonis instead of Chriss....

I don’t want anymore ‘projects’ for a while

That made me laugh... Tell em Frank.

[thamadkant]

I approach the Bagley vs. Jackson Jr debate the same way I approached Tatum vs. Isaac last year. Go for all NBA upside in the top 5, not superstar role player upside. Bagley’s ceiling is higher than JJJ, but his floor is lower.

I feel the opposite.

Bagley at the very best is worse passing Blake Griffin or Randle....

Best case Jackson Jr is Garnett without the mid range shot.

You're entitled to your opinion but I do think you're selling JJJr astronomically high and selling Bagley super low.

I don't like looking at best case scenario because most NBA talents never reach that best case scenario. I prefer looking at likely scenarios which is neither reaching their potential but not hitting their floor either.

I'm actually looking for BEST player that fits the Suns and need.

Defense (rim protection) and mobile big man who can play PF or C

Sadly Bender and Chriss ain't it.


Again... This is for Pick 3 and lower.


If Suns he pick 1 or 2... One of Ayton and Doncic... And I would seek defense from FA or trade

[lilfishi22]

I feel the opposite.

Bagley at the very best is worse passing Blake Griffin or Randle....

Best case Jackson Jr is Garnett without the mid range shot.

You're entitled to your opinion but I do think you're selling JJJr astronomically high and selling Bagley super low.

I don't like looking at best case scenario because most NBA talents never reach that best case scenario. I prefer looking at likely scenarios which is neither reaching their potential but not hitting their floor either.

I'm actually looking for BEST player that fits the Suns and need.

Defense (rim protection) and mobile big man who can play PF or C

Sadly Bender and Chriss ain't it.


Again... This is for Pick 3 and lower.


If Suns he pick 1 or 2... One of Ayton and Doncic... And I would seek defense from FA or trade

I'm still looking for that third star. So if it's not Ayton or Doncic, I'm looking at Young, then either Bagley/JJJr. Between Bagley and JJJr, I give serious consideration for Bagley because if JJJr could have AD level defensive potential then you could say the same for Bagley on the offensive end, ie unguardable face up 4.

JJJr being a project and being more of a role player doesn't fit that prospect with star potential role as much as Bagley imo

[WeekapaugGroove]

Resident Geezer checking in.....

Whoever we draft, they better know how to play basketball

Imagine if McDo-over would have selected Sabonis instead of Chriss....

I don’t want anymore ‘projects’ for a while

Sounds like you should jump on my wendell carter bandwagon. Plenty of room

[JMac1]

From the Marvin Bagley thread on the NBA Draft Board:

Your comment regarding his lateral quickness got me thinking. Do you (or anyone else who has an opinion on the matter) think Bagley has the potential to develop into an effective defender of the elite, tall, perimeter oriented type players? More specifically, I'm thinking of guys like Giannis, Lebron, Durant, Paul George, etc.

I don't recall seeing him in many perimeter defense situations, but in the Stepien scouting report they did have this to say



https://www.thestepien.com/marvin-bagley/

I'm clearly higher on Bagley than most, so you can take what I say with a grain of salt. But I thought he was a good perimeter defender this past year. I get his defender gets picked apart because he's not a rim protector, but I think he can still be a good defender without being a good rim protector. Ben Simmons has shown this during this season. I think Bagley can end up being a good versatile defender, especially in today's game where switching is so important. I thought Bagley was able to get in a good defensive position and use his motor and athletic abilities to guard out on the perimeter. Give him a few years to improve his technique and I think he can be a good defender.

I also want to make this clear, I don't think he has DPOY or all defense type of potential. But I think there are more tiers than just elite defender and being a negative defender. I think he can be a positive on the defensive end, but not game changing.