Marvin Bagley

[nolang1]

*sigh* is he another one of those scared of being measured guys?

He said he highly doubt it. Also, he doesn’t have to go to the combine to get measured. He can get measured at his workout.

Bagley is so underrated. SMH. People act as if he wasn’t a freshman and is a complete product. How can people see his feet, hops, quickeness, agility, smooth stroke and motor and not think stud?!?

Once he is a full time pro and develops his right hand and increases his shooting rang (which is still solid) what are you gonna do with him. I get the Amare/ Bosh comparison all day. Nah, who would want that type of player?

Don’t trust those Duke haters.

Bagley has neither the strength nor athleticism of pre injury Amare (who was an absolute monster), so his game is going to be incredibly ineffective if he tries to play like him in the NBA. Additionally, Amare had an all-time great mid-range game for a PF to complement his power/athleticism.

Even for a ceiling, that's reaching a little high on Bagley. It's parallel to people saying Trae is the next Steph. Sure, sometimes guys end up better than projected (Butler, Kawhi, Donovan, etc) but you can't draft on the 1% chance that occurs.

Despite playing in college, Bagley will be almost 6 months younger at the time of the draft than Amare was. Amare turned 20 two weeks into his rookie season and scored 13.5 ppg that year; Bagley will turn 20 next March. Check back then for a better comparison.

[Mr B]

*sigh* is he another one of those scared of being measured guys?

He said he highly doubt it. Also, he doesn’t have to go to the combine to get measured. He can get measured at his workout.

Bagley is so underrated. SMH. People act as if he wasn’t a freshman and is a complete product. How can people see his feet, hops, quickeness, agility, smooth stroke and motor and not think stud?!?

Once he is a full time pro and develops his right hand and increases his shooting rang (which is still solid) what are you gonna do with him. I get the Amare/ Bosh comparison all day. Nah, who would want that type of player?

Don’t trust those Duke haters.

Bagley has neither the strength nor athleticism of pre injury Amare (who was an absolute monster), so his game is going to be incredibly ineffective if he tries to play like him in the NBA. Additionally, Amare had an all-time great mid-range game for a PF to complement his power/athleticism.

Even for a ceiling, that's reaching a little high on Bagley. It's parallel to people saying Trae is the next Steph. Sure, sometimes guys end up better than projected (Butler, Kawhi, Donovan, etc) but you can't draft on the 1% chance that occurs.

Amare didn’t start his career with a great mid-range game though and was never a good 3-point shooter. They do have some similarities like their rebounding and motor but they’re not really the same player.

Just like any other player that has become a star or superstar there’s a lot more to it than just skill or physical ability. They need to end up with the right coach and in the right system too.

I think Carlisle would be a great coach for Bagley and his game fits the Mavs system and what they’re looking for. It will likely take a year or two but if he works hard and listens to Carlisle he’ll be a superstar for sure.

[Duke4life831]

He said he highly doubt it. Also, he doesn’t have to go to the combine to get measured. He can get measured at his workout.

Bagley is so underrated. SMH. People act as if he wasn’t a freshman and is a complete product. How can people see his feet, hops, quickeness, agility, smooth stroke and motor and not think stud?!?

Once he is a full time pro and develops his right hand and increases his shooting rang (which is still solid) what are you gonna do with him. I get the Amare/ Bosh comparison all day. Nah, who would want that type of player?

Don’t trust those Duke haters.

Bagley has neither the strength nor athleticism of pre injury Amare (who was an absolute monster), so his game is going to be incredibly ineffective if he tries to play like him in the NBA. Additionally, Amare had an all-time great mid-range game for a PF to complement his power/athleticism.

Even for a ceiling, that's reaching a little high on Bagley. It's parallel to people saying Trae is the next Steph. Sure, sometimes guys end up better than projected (Butler, Kawhi, Donovan, etc) but you can't draft on the 1% chance that occurs.

Amare didn’t start his career with a great mid-range game though and was never a good 3-point shooter. They do have some similarities like their rebounding and motor but they’re not really the same player.

Just like any other player that has become a star or superstar there’s a lot more to it than just skill or physical ability. They need to end up with the right coach and in the right system too.

I think Carlisle would be a great coach for Bagley and his game fits the Mavs system and what they’re looking for. It will likely take a year or two but if he works hard and listens to Carlisle he’ll be a superstar for sure.

Out of the top teams I think Dallas would be Bagley's ideal landing spot. Great coach in Carlisle and a great young PG to grow with, with DSJ. Those two could be a great young duo to watch over the next 5 years or so.

[daoneandonly]

Bagley has neither the strength nor athleticism of pre injury Amare (who was an absolute monster), so his game is going to be incredibly ineffective if he tries to play like him in the NBA. Additionally, Amare had an all-time great mid-range game for a PF to complement his power/athleticism.

Even for a ceiling, that's reaching a little high on Bagley. It's parallel to people saying Trae is the next Steph. Sure, sometimes guys end up better than projected (Butler, Kawhi, Donovan, etc) but you can't draft on the 1% chance that occurs.

Amare didn’t start his career with a great mid-range game though and was never a good 3-point shooter. They do have some similarities like their rebounding and motor but they’re not really the same player.

Just like any other player that has become a star or superstar there’s a lot more to it than just skill or physical ability. They need to end up with the right coach and in the right system too.

I think Carlisle would be a great coach for Bagley and his game fits the Mavs system and what they’re looking for. It will likely take a year or two but if he works hard and listens to Carlisle he’ll be a superstar for sure.

Out of the top teams I think Dallas would be Bagley's ideal landing spot. Great coach in Carlisle and a great young PG to grow with, with DSJ. Those two could be a great young duo to watch over the next 5 years or so.

This is what I'm hoping for as a Mavs fan

[Davis]

As a basketball fan, I'd love to see him in Dallas. That duo would be fun to watch.

Just finished reading this thread from start to finish, a lot of great info in here (from duke4life in particular. I'm off to track down your thoughts on the rest of the dukies). I've had Bagley #1 on my board for a while now and don't think it'll be changing any time soon.

[akhan786]

The biggest problem with him is I think team fit. If early in his career he is burdend with a to heawy self creation role things could go south for him. If he could miraculously go to Utah and take Favours spot I could see him becoming in his peak a 2. string championship player. But most likely he will go to a team with a bad PG and sistem for him. But far to many ways for things to not develop good for him.

THIS. And this is why I really hope the Celtics find a way to grab him if he falls out of the Top 5. He's a PERFECT fit as the last piece of our young core and Bagley couldn't ask for a better situation to step into.

1) Gets to come off the bench for his first year and just be an energizer bunny as he gets acclimated to the league
2) Gets to develop in a championship environment under Brad Stevens
3) Will have maybe the perfect big man mentor in Al Horford who is also a couple years away from taking a step back
4) Will have his two Duke bros on his side immediately

I really don't think he will have a great rookie season if he ends up on a team like the Bulls or Hawks. He needs to be low usage in his early years and he can be a star in that role from day 1.

The unprotected Sac pick we have in 2019 is useless because the top talent in that class are all wings. The last piece we need to complement Kyrie/Hayward/Brown/Tatum/Horford is a rim-running, rebounding nightmare, low-usage big who has a Westbrook-like motor.

Go get him Danny.

[doordoor123]

The biggest problem with him is I think team fit. If early in his career he is burdend with a to heawy self creation role things could go south for him. If he could miraculously go to Utah and take Favours spot I could see him becoming in his peak a 2. string championship player. But most likely he will go to a team with a bad PG and sistem for him. But far to many ways for things to not develop good for him.

THIS. And this is why I really hope the Celtics find a way to grab him if he falls out of the Top 5. He's a PERFECT fit as the last piece of our young core and Bagley couldn't ask for a better situation to step into.

1) Gets to come off the bench for his first year and just be an energizer bunny as he gets acclimated to the league
2) Gets to develop in a championship environment under Brad Stevens
3) Will have maybe the perfect big man mentor in Al Horford who is also a couple years away from taking a step back
4) Will have his two Duke bros on his side immediately

I really don't think he will have a great rookie season if he ends up on a team like the Bulls or Hawks. He needs to be low usage in his early years and he can be a star in that role from day 1.

The unprotected Sac pick we have in 2019 is useless because the top talent in that class are all wings. The last piece we need to complement Kyrie/Hayward/Brown/Tatum/Horford is a rim-running, rebounding nightmare, low-usage big who has a Westbrook-like motor.

Go get him Danny.

I think there’s a chance you trade Jaylen Brown and another pick for him. I say Brown because Tatum is too good to trade, Irving and Hayward will return next year and will need minutes. Rozier will also need minutes and Smart too. Bagley would have an extra year on his contract so I would think the Celtics would need to add a little more than just Brown by himself. And the Celtics could use some extra bigs anyway.

[NDave79]

I've been doing a lot of research on Bagley lately and I've come to the conclusion that I think if he had been paired up with sort of the typical Duke stretch 4 (Battier, Dunleavy, Deng, etc.) as opposed to Carter, we would be looking at him in a more positive light in general. I realize in some ways playing next to Carter had some benefits and that Carter proved to be a solid college 3 point shooter, but the overall spacing of playing a 4 out offense and him playing the rim protecting role he was accustomed to from high school, would have made him look better overall imo.

Defensively, he was top 3 in the EYBL in blocked shots both in 2016 (ahead of both Bamba and JJJ) and 2017 and every scouting report I saw basically gave good grades on his defense. I think learning a new position on top of learning a new defensive system and just the jump from high school to college created a dynamic where he suffered. When your learning a new system, until you know it second nature, it's common to be a step slow and worse than when you were basically just playing on instincts imo. Even in the NBA, it can take a half a season or more for a team to effectively incorporate a new defensive scheme and these guys are already pros. I think changing his position, just made the transition a little to much for him to be ready to be an impact defender.

I think his rebounding would look even more impressive as he would naturally be in better position to rebound especially after they made the switch to zone where it seemed like he often ended up out of rebounding position due to his defensive responsibilities. Plus, he wouldn't be sharing rebounds with another big time rebounder.

Offensively, even though Carter developed a decent 3 point shot, a lot of the time the paint just looked crowded. The extra spacing of a more natural perimeter player would have helped Bagley quite a bit imo. Also, I think Bagley would have looked better playing against other teams centers where he could have utilized his quickness more (obviously, there were also times it benefited him posting up a smaller guy).

But to be fair, a lot of the top guys weren't exactly in perfect situations to show their game. Ayton playing the 4 as well; Bamba having so little shooting on his team; JJJ playing with a couple guys who were probably best suited to being bigs in college.

The main point of this post though, is that I think in a different scenario Bagley's defense might have looked a lot better.

[nolang1]

Team fit is such a goofy concern when we’re talking about high lottery picks. Any 50+ loss team that spent a half the season tanking should not be deluding itself into thinking it has more than a player or two worth keeping around.

[Duke4life831]

I've been doing a lot of research on Bagley lately and I've come to the conclusion that I think if he had been paired up with sort of the typical Duke stretch 4 (Battier, Dunleavy, Deng, etc.) as opposed to Carter, we would be looking at him in a more positive light in general. I realize in some ways playing next to Carter had some benefits and that Carter proved to be a solid college 3 point shooter, but the overall spacing of playing a 4 out offense and him playing the rim protecting role he was accustomed to from high school, would have made him look better overall imo.

Defensively, he was top 3 in the EYBL in blocked shots both in 2016 (ahead of both Bamba and JJJ) and 2017 and every scouting report I saw basically gave good grades on his defense. I think learning a new position on top of learning a new defensive system and just the jump from high school to college created a dynamic where he suffered. When your learning a new system, until you know it second nature, it's common to be a step slow and worse than when you were basically just playing on instincts imo. Even in the NBA, it can take a half a season or more for a team to effectively incorporate a new defensive scheme and these guys are already pros. I think changing his position, just made the transition a little to much for him to be ready to be an impact defender.

I think his rebounding would look even more impressive as he would naturally be in better position to rebound especially after they made the switch to zone where it seemed like he often ended up out of rebounding position due to his defensive responsibilities. Plus, he wouldn't be sharing rebounds with another big time rebounder.

Offensively, even though Carter developed a decent 3 point shot, a lot of the time the paint just looked crowded. The extra spacing of a more natural perimeter player would have helped Bagley quite a bit imo. Also, I think Bagley would have looked better playing against other teams centers where he could have utilized his quickness more (obviously, there were also times it benefited him posting up a smaller guy).

But to be fair, a lot of the top guys weren't exactly in perfect situations to show their game. Ayton playing the 4 as well; Bamba having so little shooting on his team; JJJ playing with a couple guys who were probably best suited to being bigs in college.

The main point of this post though, is that I think in a different scenario Bagley's defense might have looked a lot better.

Here's the thing with defense and Duke. K's man defense is out dated and it just sucks if Im being blunt. Over the last 6 seasons (not including this past one) Duke's defense has been ranked 79th or worse 3 times and top 25 just once. Now this past season Duke's defense I believe hit mid 80s, that is when K switched to zone and it ended up 9th. It's an outdated scheme and it just makes the players look bad, just look at Tatum last year. Everywhere pre draft I saw how much Tatum was a poor defender, but look at him this year, defense is one of his strengths. Tyus Jones was a horrific defender at Duke and now is a very good defender just a couple years in the league.

Basically my point is you watch one game of Duke trying to play man defense and it looks like 5 chickens running around with their heads chopped off. This is why last year I focused a lot more on just footwork and awareness when watching Tatum and all season long when he was at Duke I kept saying how good of a defender he was. This past year with this Duke team, same thing with Bagley. When they were still playing man, Carter was getting exposed left and right, Trent had no clue how to play team defense, Grayson couldnt keep his man in front of him to save his life. The whole time playing man I thought Bagley and Duval were the best defenders. I think Bagley is going to surprise a lot of people with his ability to switch and guard out on the perimeter. No doubt his rim protection was disappointing this year, but he was playing a lot out on the perimeter so he didnt get as many chances and the man defense was really focused on trying to funnel everything towards Carter (stupid idea). Again I dont think Bagley is a stud defender, but I think he was a fine defender last year as a freshman and I think he ends up being a good (not elite) defender that is versatile in the NBA.

[daoneandonly]

I've been doing a lot of research on Bagley lately and I've come to the conclusion that I think if he had been paired up with sort of the typical Duke stretch 4 (Battier, Dunleavy, Deng, etc.) as opposed to Carter, we would be looking at him in a more positive light in general. I realize in some ways playing next to Carter had some benefits and that Carter proved to be a solid college 3 point shooter, but the overall spacing of playing a 4 out offense and him playing the rim protecting role he was accustomed to from high school, would have made him look better overall imo.

Defensively, he was top 3 in the EYBL in blocked shots both in 2016 (ahead of both Bamba and JJJ) and 2017 and every scouting report I saw basically gave good grades on his defense. I think learning a new position on top of learning a new defensive system and just the jump from high school to college created a dynamic where he suffered. When your learning a new system, until you know it second nature, it's common to be a step slow and worse than when you were basically just playing on instincts imo. Even in the NBA, it can take a half a season or more for a team to effectively incorporate a new defensive scheme and these guys are already pros. I think changing his position, just made the transition a little to much for him to be ready to be an impact defender.

I think his rebounding would look even more impressive as he would naturally be in better position to rebound especially after they made the switch to zone where it seemed like he often ended up out of rebounding position due to his defensive responsibilities. Plus, he wouldn't be sharing rebounds with another big time rebounder.

Offensively, even though Carter developed a decent 3 point shot, a lot of the time the paint just looked crowded. The extra spacing of a more natural perimeter player would have helped Bagley quite a bit imo. Also, I think Bagley would have looked better playing against other teams centers where he could have utilized his quickness more (obviously, there were also times it benefited him posting up a smaller guy).

But to be fair, a lot of the top guys weren't exactly in perfect situations to show their game. Ayton playing the 4 as well; Bamba having so little shooting on his team; JJJ playing with a couple guys who were probably best suited to being bigs in college.

The main point of this post though, is that I think in a different scenario Bagley's defense might have looked a lot better.

Here's the thing with defense and Duke. K's man defense is out dated and it just sucks if Im being blunt. Over the last 6 seasons (not including this past one) Duke's defense has been ranked 79th or worse 3 times and top 25 just once. Now this past season Duke's defense I believe hit mid 80s, that is when K switched to zone and it ended up 9th. It's an outdated scheme and it just makes the players look bad, just look at Tatum last year. Everywhere pre draft I saw how much Tatum was a poor defender, but look at him this year, defense is one of his strengths. Tyus Jones was a horrific defender at Duke and now is a very good defender just a couple years in the league.

Basically my point is you watch one game of Duke trying to play man defense and it looks like 5 chickens running around with their heads chopped off. This is why last year I focused a lot more on just footwork and awareness when watching Tatum and all season long when he was at Duke I kept saying how good of a defender he was. This past year with this Duke team, same thing with Bagley. When they were still playing man, Carter was getting exposed left and right, Trent had no clue how to play team defense, Grayson couldnt keep his man in front of him to save his life. The whole time playing man I thought Bagley and Duval were the best defenders. I think Bagley is going to surprise a lot of people with his ability to switch and guard out on the perimeter. No doubt his rim protection was disappointing this year, but he was playing a lot out on the perimeter so he didnt get as many chances and the man defense was really focused on trying to funnel everything towards Carter (stupid idea). Again I dont think Bagley is a stud defender, but I think he was a fine defender last year as a freshman and I think he ends up being a good (not elite) defender that is versatile in the NBA.

Yes Coach K has a huge hand in tbis. Look at Tatum, his D was a concern coming out, and he's been just fine

[Duke4life831]

I've been doing a lot of research on Bagley lately and I've come to the conclusion that I think if he had been paired up with sort of the typical Duke stretch 4 (Battier, Dunleavy, Deng, etc.) as opposed to Carter, we would be looking at him in a more positive light in general. I realize in some ways playing next to Carter had some benefits and that Carter proved to be a solid college 3 point shooter, but the overall spacing of playing a 4 out offense and him playing the rim protecting role he was accustomed to from high school, would have made him look better overall imo.

Defensively, he was top 3 in the EYBL in blocked shots both in 2016 (ahead of both Bamba and JJJ) and 2017 and every scouting report I saw basically gave good grades on his defense. I think learning a new position on top of learning a new defensive system and just the jump from high school to college created a dynamic where he suffered. When your learning a new system, until you know it second nature, it's common to be a step slow and worse than when you were basically just playing on instincts imo. Even in the NBA, it can take a half a season or more for a team to effectively incorporate a new defensive scheme and these guys are already pros. I think changing his position, just made the transition a little to much for him to be ready to be an impact defender.

I think his rebounding would look even more impressive as he would naturally be in better position to rebound especially after they made the switch to zone where it seemed like he often ended up out of rebounding position due to his defensive responsibilities. Plus, he wouldn't be sharing rebounds with another big time rebounder.

Offensively, even though Carter developed a decent 3 point shot, a lot of the time the paint just looked crowded. The extra spacing of a more natural perimeter player would have helped Bagley quite a bit imo. Also, I think Bagley would have looked better playing against other teams centers where he could have utilized his quickness more (obviously, there were also times it benefited him posting up a smaller guy).

But to be fair, a lot of the top guys weren't exactly in perfect situations to show their game. Ayton playing the 4 as well; Bamba having so little shooting on his team; JJJ playing with a couple guys who were probably best suited to being bigs in college.

The main point of this post though, is that I think in a different scenario Bagley's defense might have looked a lot better.

Here's the thing with defense and Duke. K's man defense is out dated and it just sucks if Im being blunt. Over the last 6 seasons (not including this past one) Duke's defense has been ranked 79th or worse 3 times and top 25 just once. Now this past season Duke's defense I believe hit mid 80s, that is when K switched to zone and it ended up 9th. It's an outdated scheme and it just makes the players look bad, just look at Tatum last year. Everywhere pre draft I saw how much Tatum was a poor defender, but look at him this year, defense is one of his strengths. Tyus Jones was a horrific defender at Duke and now is a very good defender just a couple years in the league.

Basically my point is you watch one game of Duke trying to play man defense and it looks like 5 chickens running around with their heads chopped off. This is why last year I focused a lot more on just footwork and awareness when watching Tatum and all season long when he was at Duke I kept saying how good of a defender he was. This past year with this Duke team, same thing with Bagley. When they were still playing man, Carter was getting exposed left and right, Trent had no clue how to play team defense, Grayson couldnt keep his man in front of him to save his life. The whole time playing man I thought Bagley and Duval were the best defenders. I think Bagley is going to surprise a lot of people with his ability to switch and guard out on the perimeter. No doubt his rim protection was disappointing this year, but he was playing a lot out on the perimeter so he didnt get as many chances and the man defense was really focused on trying to funnel everything towards Carter (stupid idea). Again I dont think Bagley is a stud defender, but I think he was a fine defender last year as a freshman and I think he ends up being a good (not elite) defender that is versatile in the NBA.

Yes Coach K has a huge hand in tbis. Look at Tatum, his D was a concern coming out, and he's been just fine

Ya again Im obviously a huge K fan, but you would have to have your head buried in the sand to not acknowledge his man defensive system was clearly out dated and not made to defend offenses in today's game with multiple 3pt shooters and heavy PnR.

They way Im judging Bagley's defense is his versatility. I thought as a freshman he was actually good guarding out on the perimeter. He got down in a good defensive stance, moved his feet well and was able to stay in front of perimeter players a good % of the time. Obviously needs help with awareness and other things, but with his athleticism, size, and motor even on the defensive side. I have a hard time seeing him not becoming at least a solid defender. This isnt a Jabari Parker type of situation where he is a great athlete and has good tools but just doesnt have the motor and intensity to play defense, Bagley's great motor is on both sides of the ball.

[Davis]

Here's the thing with defense and Duke. K's man defense is out dated and it just sucks if Im being blunt. Over the last 6 seasons

Can you elaborate on the defensive scheme a bit? I keep hearing you mention that it's outdated, but im not entirely sure why.

[Duke4life831]

Here's the thing with defense and Duke. K's man defense is out dated and it just sucks if Im being blunt. Over the last 6 seasons

Can you elaborate on the defensive scheme a bit? I keep hearing you mention that it's outdated, but im not entirely sure why.

K believes in a high pressure defense. So he likes his guys to basically stay glued to their man no matter how far away from the basket they are and if they are a shooter or not. The defense worked great back in the day when most teams had 2 traditional bigs usually glued down low.

But in today's game when teams have 4 sometimes 5 shooters on the court and they spread the floor out it really spreads their defense. He also likes his bigs to hedge really hard instead of switching. So what teams basically learned was to spread the floor and take the only big to set a screen 25-27+ feet out. Duke's big will then go and hedge the screen hard and this basically gets Duke's big man 30 some on feet from the basket, all it takes is for the PG to beat the hedge and he has a clear lane to the basket with no defensive players close to it. With everyone else playing up in their man's jersey out on the premier, it creates a late rotation if the rotation even gets there and from there the defense just falls apart. Really the defense isn't made to handle a spread type offense or an offense that runs a heavy amount of PnR.

I believe it was in 2015 Duke played Miami and Miami just crushed them. After the game he came out and said that they were looking forward all season to play Duke's defense because it was so easy to attack.

I know a lot of Duke fans (including myself) got so tired of watching one of the Plumlee's or Bolden hedge a screen 30ft from the basket then watch as the PG has a wide open lane for a dunk or layup.

[nolang1]

Here's the thing with defense and Duke. K's man defense is out dated and it just sucks if Im being blunt. Over the last 6 seasons

Can you elaborate on the defensive scheme a bit? I keep hearing you mention that it's outdated, but im not entirely sure why.

K believes in a high pressure defense. So he likes his guys to basically stay glued to their man no matter how far away from the basket they are and if they are a shooter or not. The defense worked great back in the day when most teams had 2 traditional bigs usually glued down low.

But in today's game when teams have 4 sometimes 5 shooters on the court and they spread the floor out it really spreads their defense. He also likes his bigs to hedge really hard instead of switching. So what teams basically learned was to spread the floor and take the only big to set a screen 25-27+ feet out. Duke's big will then go and hedge the screen hard and this basically gets Duke's big man 30 some on feet from the basket, all it takes is for the PG to beat the hedge and he has a clear lane to the basket with no defensive players close to it. With everyone else playing up in their man's jersey out on the premier, it creates a late rotation if the rotation even gets there and from there the defense just falls apart. Really the defense isn't made to handle a spread type offense or an offense that runs a heavy amount of PnR.

I believe it was in 2015 Duke played Miami and Miami just crushed them. After the game he came out and said that they were looking forward all season to play Duke's defense because it was so easy to attack.

I know a lot of Duke fans (including myself) got so tired of watching one of the Plumlee's or Bolden hedge a screen 30ft from the basket then watch as the PG has a wide open lane for a dunk or layup.

In other words, when everything is firing on all cylinders this kind of defense can lead to 20-2 kind of runs, but otherwise it allows any team that has a skilled four and a point guard who can score off the dribble to put up points despite an overall talent disadvantage. It's the same kind of defense from Miami that made Roy Hibbert look like an All-Star.

[Duke4life831]

Can you elaborate on the defensive scheme a bit? I keep hearing you mention that it's outdated, but im not entirely sure why.

K believes in a high pressure defense. So he likes his guys to basically stay glued to their man no matter how far away from the basket they are and if they are a shooter or not. The defense worked great back in the day when most teams had 2 traditional bigs usually glued down low.

But in today's game when teams have 4 sometimes 5 shooters on the court and they spread the floor out it really spreads their defense. He also likes his bigs to hedge really hard instead of switching. So what teams basically learned was to spread the floor and take the only big to set a screen 25-27+ feet out. Duke's big will then go and hedge the screen hard and this basically gets Duke's big man 30 some on feet from the basket, all it takes is for the PG to beat the hedge and he has a clear lane to the basket with no defensive players close to it. With everyone else playing up in their man's jersey out on the premier, it creates a late rotation if the rotation even gets there and from there the defense just falls apart. Really the defense isn't made to handle a spread type offense or an offense that runs a heavy amount of PnR.

I believe it was in 2015 Duke played Miami and Miami just crushed them. After the game he came out and said that they were looking forward all season to play Duke's defense because it was so easy to attack.

I know a lot of Duke fans (including myself) got so tired of watching one of the Plumlee's or Bolden hedge a screen 30ft from the basket then watch as the PG has a wide open lane for a dunk or layup.

In other words, when everything is firing on all cylinders this kind of defense can lead to 20-2 kind of runs, but otherwise it allows any team that has a skilled four and a point guard who can score off the dribble to put up points despite an overall talent disadvantage. It's the same kind of defense from Miami that made Roy Hibbert look like an All-Star.

Correct. Did you mean Whiteside or Indy for Hibbert? It's a defense that is all about turning up the pressure and causing turnovers. So when a team is struggling it can really get in their head and you can see it cause a few turnovers, but either than that, a smart coach will just spread it out and PnR it to death and they know more times than not, they're going to end up with a wide open layup or a wide open shot off of late rotations.

Again back in the day it worked great because there was usually 1 or 2 offensive guys glued to the low post and PnR wasn't really popular in college. So back in the day basically all it did was pressure the these perimeter players and it if they got by their man there would be Shelden Williams chilling in the paint because his man would be camping down low and he'd eat them up. And just like Hibbert back in the day, he was able to chill at the rim all day and protect it, the second he had to leave the paint his career was basically over.

That doesn't work anymore, there is no longer a big man chilling in the paint to protect it. He's either out guarding his man out on the perimeter or following his man on the PnR. And you rarely see teams hedge the screen now, they just switch their man. You also don't have the other guys all up in their man even when they don't have the ball, they're sagging off just a little getting ready to help.

Basically the most simple way to put it, defenses today are much more team oriented, while K's defense is much more individual man oriented. The PnR and spread offenses destroy defenses that are like that.

[nolang1]

K believes in a high pressure defense. So he likes his guys to basically stay glued to their man no matter how far away from the basket they are and if they are a shooter or not. The defense worked great back in the day when most teams had 2 traditional bigs usually glued down low.

But in today's game when teams have 4 sometimes 5 shooters on the court and they spread the floor out it really spreads their defense. He also likes his bigs to hedge really hard instead of switching. So what teams basically learned was to spread the floor and take the only big to set a screen 25-27+ feet out. Duke's big will then go and hedge the screen hard and this basically gets Duke's big man 30 some on feet from the basket, all it takes is for the PG to beat the hedge and he has a clear lane to the basket with no defensive players close to it. With everyone else playing up in their man's jersey out on the premier, it creates a late rotation if the rotation even gets there and from there the defense just falls apart. Really the defense isn't made to handle a spread type offense or an offense that runs a heavy amount of PnR.

I believe it was in 2015 Duke played Miami and Miami just crushed them. After the game he came out and said that they were looking forward all season to play Duke's defense because it was so easy to attack.

I know a lot of Duke fans (including myself) got so tired of watching one of the Plumlee's or Bolden hedge a screen 30ft from the basket then watch as the PG has a wide open lane for a dunk or layup.

In other words, when everything is firing on all cylinders this kind of defense can lead to 20-2 kind of runs, but otherwise it allows any team that has a skilled four and a point guard who can score off the dribble to put up points despite an overall talent disadvantage. It's the same kind of defense from Miami that made Roy Hibbert look like an All-Star.

Correct. Did you mean Whiteside or Indy for Hibbert? It's a defense that is all about turning up the pressure and causing turnovers. So when a team is struggling it can really get in their head and you can see it cause a few turnovers, but either than that, a smart coach will just spread it out and PnR it to death and they know more times than not, they're going to end up with a wide open layup or a wide open shot off of late rotations.

Again back in the day it worked great because there was usually 1 or 2 offensive guys glued to the low post and PnR wasn't really popular in college. So back in the day basically all it did was pressure the these perimeter players and it if they got by their man there would be Shelden Williams chilling in the paint because his man would be camping down low and he'd eat them up. And just like Hibbert back in the day, he was able to chill at the rim all day and protect it, the second he had to leave the paint his career was basically over.

That doesn't work anymore, there is no longer a big man chilling in the paint to protect it. He's either out guarding his man out on the perimeter or following his man on the PnR. And you rarely see teams hedge the screen now, they just switch their man. You also don't have the other guys all up in their man even when they don't have the ball, they're sagging off just a little getting ready to help.

Basically the most simple way to put it, defenses today are much more team oriented, while K's defense is much more individual man oriented. The PnR and spread offenses destroy defenses that are like that.

I meant the LeBron-era Heat. They were so aggressive in hedging that it gave a team like Indiana plenty of 4-on-3 opportunities (with David West in Draymond Green's role) when they struggled to score against other teams; it was despite this defense, not because of it, that Miami was able to win those series. It's the same kind of defense that got Jason Kidd fired; players are competent enough on offense these days that if all 5 defenders aren't absolutely on a string, you're far more likely to get burned than you are to force a bunch of turnovers.

[Duke4life831]

In other words, when everything is firing on all cylinders this kind of defense can lead to 20-2 kind of runs, but otherwise it allows any team that has a skilled four and a point guard who can score off the dribble to put up points despite an overall talent disadvantage. It's the same kind of defense from Miami that made Roy Hibbert look like an All-Star.

Correct. Did you mean Whiteside or Indy for Hibbert? It's a defense that is all about turning up the pressure and causing turnovers. So when a team is struggling it can really get in their head and you can see it cause a few turnovers, but either than that, a smart coach will just spread it out and PnR it to death and they know more times than not, they're going to end up with a wide open layup or a wide open shot off of late rotations.

Again back in the day it worked great because there was usually 1 or 2 offensive guys glued to the low post and PnR wasn't really popular in college. So back in the day basically all it did was pressure the these perimeter players and it if they got by their man there would be Shelden Williams chilling in the paint because his man would be camping down low and he'd eat them up. And just like Hibbert back in the day, he was able to chill at the rim all day and protect it, the second he had to leave the paint his career was basically over.

That doesn't work anymore, there is no longer a big man chilling in the paint to protect it. He's either out guarding his man out on the perimeter or following his man on the PnR. And you rarely see teams hedge the screen now, they just switch their man. You also don't have the other guys all up in their man even when they don't have the ball, they're sagging off just a little getting ready to help.

Basically the most simple way to put it, defenses today are much more team oriented, while K's defense is much more individual man oriented. The PnR and spread offenses destroy defenses that are like that.

I meant the LeBron-era Heat. They were so aggressive in hedging that it gave a team like Indiana plenty of 4-on-3 opportunities (with David West in Draymond Green's role) when they struggled to score against other teams; it was despite this defense, not because of it, that Miami was able to win those series. It's the same kind of defense that got Jason Kidd fired; players are competent enough on offense these days that if all 5 defenders aren't absolutely on a string, you're far more likely to get burned than you are to force a bunch of turnovers.

I can't quite remember how Miami ran their defense. But yes Kidd is a fantastic one to bring up. I brought this up a few times the last couple years on the Bucks board when watching their games. It made no sense a team that long and athletic was always so bad defensively until you watch them. They had that first year under him when it worked and also that was right when the 3pt shot started to get cranked up. Spread offenses became more of the norm and playing this defense where everyone is up in their guys jersey at all times and having Henson trying to hedge 25+ feet from the basket doesn't work now a days. Again that defense is so predicated on individual man defense over team defense. Works great against teams that don't spread you out and run a lot of PnR. But if you go against an offense predicated on spreading you out, it's game over. On second thoughts, ya just like the beat down the Spurs put on in Miami in the finals.

[nolang1]

Correct. Did you mean Whiteside or Indy for Hibbert? It's a defense that is all about turning up the pressure and causing turnovers. So when a team is struggling it can really get in their head and you can see it cause a few turnovers, but either than that, a smart coach will just spread it out and PnR it to death and they know more times than not, they're going to end up with a wide open layup or a wide open shot off of late rotations.

Again back in the day it worked great because there was usually 1 or 2 offensive guys glued to the low post and PnR wasn't really popular in college. So back in the day basically all it did was pressure the these perimeter players and it if they got by their man there would be Shelden Williams chilling in the paint because his man would be camping down low and he'd eat them up. And just like Hibbert back in the day, he was able to chill at the rim all day and protect it, the second he had to leave the paint his career was basically over.

That doesn't work anymore, there is no longer a big man chilling in the paint to protect it. He's either out guarding his man out on the perimeter or following his man on the PnR. And you rarely see teams hedge the screen now, they just switch their man. You also don't have the other guys all up in their man even when they don't have the ball, they're sagging off just a little getting ready to help.

Basically the most simple way to put it, defenses today are much more team oriented, while K's defense is much more individual man oriented. The PnR and spread offenses destroy defenses that are like that.

I meant the LeBron-era Heat. They were so aggressive in hedging that it gave a team like Indiana plenty of 4-on-3 opportunities (with David West in Draymond Green's role) when they struggled to score against other teams; it was despite this defense, not because of it, that Miami was able to win those series. It's the same kind of defense that got Jason Kidd fired; players are competent enough on offense these days that if all 5 defenders aren't absolutely on a string, you're far more likely to get burned than you are to force a bunch of turnovers.

I can't quite remember how Miami ran their defense. But yes Kidd is a fantastic one to bring up. I brought this up a few times the last couple years on the Bucks board when watching their games. It made no sense a team that long and athletic was always so bad defensively until you watch them. They had that first year under him when it worked and also that was right when the 3pt shot started to get cranked up. Spread offenses became more of the norm and playing this defense where everyone is up in their guys jersey at all times and having Henson trying to hedge 25+ feet from the basket doesn't work now a days. Again that defense is so predicated on individual man defense over team defense. Works great against teams that don't spread you out and run a lot of PnR. But if you go against an offense predicated on spreading you out, it's game over. On second thoughts, ya just like the beat down the Spurs put on in Miami in the finals.

Exactly, the best defensive players can only do so much against the best offenses (which by nature spread everyone out). I just find it bizarre that people are saying Bagley doesn't have the dimensions to play center when the crunch-time 5s for this year's conference finalists are going to be Kevin Love, Al Horford, Clint Capela, and Draymond Green. None of those players were regarded as centers when they entered the league, and it's not like teams are going to shoot fewer three-pointers anytime soon.

[Duke4life831]

I meant the LeBron-era Heat. They were so aggressive in hedging that it gave a team like Indiana plenty of 4-on-3 opportunities (with David West in Draymond Green's role) when they struggled to score against other teams; it was despite this defense, not because of it, that Miami was able to win those series. It's the same kind of defense that got Jason Kidd fired; players are competent enough on offense these days that if all 5 defenders aren't absolutely on a string, you're far more likely to get burned than you are to force a bunch of turnovers.

I can't quite remember how Miami ran their defense. But yes Kidd is a fantastic one to bring up. I brought this up a few times the last couple years on the Bucks board when watching their games. It made no sense a team that long and athletic was always so bad defensively until you watch them. They had that first year under him when it worked and also that was right when the 3pt shot started to get cranked up. Spread offenses became more of the norm and playing this defense where everyone is up in their guys jersey at all times and having Henson trying to hedge 25+ feet from the basket doesn't work now a days. Again that defense is so predicated on individual man defense over team defense. Works great against teams that don't spread you out and run a lot of PnR. But if you go against an offense predicated on spreading you out, it's game over. On second thoughts, ya just like the beat down the Spurs put on in Miami in the finals.

Exactly, the best defensive players can only do so much against the best offenses (which by nature spread everyone out). I just find it bizarre that people are saying Bagley doesn't have the dimensions to play center when the crunch-time 5s for this year's conference finalists are going to be Kevin Love, Al Horford, Clint Capela, and Draymond Green. None of those players were regarded as centers when they entered the league, and it's not like teams are going to shoot fewer three-pointers anytime soon.

When it comes to Bagley I can see him playing either the 5 or 4, it really just depends on what the team is looking for from their defense. Ive been talking about this on the Boston board but say they somehow traded up and had the choice to choose Bagley/Bamba. Its up to Ainge and Stevens on how they want their defense to look, do they want that rim protecting stud in the middle, if so they would go with Bamba. Or do they want this freakishly versatile lineup where 2-5 they could be looking at Brown, Hayward, Tatum, Bagley. Talk about the ability to switch and cover with that team. Or I can see him at the 4 say with the Knicks, have KP be that rim protector and have Bagley be the guy chasing the 4s around.