Re: Best defenders among Small Forwards CANDIDATES LIST- The Ten Best Defenders in each Position Project

[Dr Positivity]

So, are there any guys that you feel like I should open a poll about to decide their position? there have been doubts for rodman, debusschere, marion, kirilenko.

To me Kirilenko sf, marion sf but close to pf, debusschere you guys are saying sf, rodman sf.

anyway stephen jackson yes, paul george absolutely yes, paul pressey yes, anthony mason is a pf, we can put bill hanzlik

For me I have DeBusschere as clear PF. I can listen to arguments for SF for Rodman but I would go PF personally. The precedent has been where the player has been the most seasons not where he played his best. Hence Dennis Johnson being listed at PG when his best defensive seasons were SG, and AK being listed at SF when his best seasons on defense are at PF

[penbeast0]

lynch, gus johnson, willie wise, rick fox, ok.

would you remove any of these guys?

Scottie Pippen
Bruce Bowen
Lebron James
Shane Battier
Kawhi Leonard
John Havlicek
Andre Iguodala
Metta World Peace
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirilenko
Derrick McKey
Joe Caldwell
Jamaal Wilkes
Robert Covington
Bob Dandridge
Luol Deng
Tom Sanders
Gerald Wallace
Rodney McCray

I don't think Covington has played enough for a career list; Jamaal Wilkes was not quite the caliber of the others here, McKey/McCray/Deng also don't seem like they would get any top 10 support (Caldwell won't either but that's more era than impact I would think).

[trex_8063]

So, are there any guys that you feel like I should open a poll about to decide their position? there have been doubts for rodman, debusschere, marion, kirilenko.

To me Kirilenko sf, marion sf but close to pf, debusschere you guys are saying sf, rodman sf.

anyway stephen jackson yes, paul george absolutely yes, paul pressey yes, anthony mason is a pf, we can put bill hanzlik

wrt the bolded: to the contrary, nearly all of us have been saying DeBusschere is a PF.

I still lump Rodman with the PF's (because that's where he played the majority of his career), though I don't disagree that the majority of his great defensive years came while playing primarily SF. His two DPOY awards both came in years playing more SF. However.....

*He's listed as PF in 9 of his 14 seasons (even if we omit the last two limited minute seasons, it's 7 of 12 seasons). 63.1% of his career minutes fall in PF seasons. If we call his prime '88-'97, that's four SF seasons, six PF seasons (60.1% of the minutes in that span at PF); even if you want to omit '97 from his prime, that's 5 of 9 seasons and 56.6% of prime minutes coming at PF.
**The years he was an All-Star: 1 at SF, 1 at PF.
***The years All-NBA: 0 at SF, 2 at PF.
****The years selected All-Defensive: 3 at SF, 5 at PF.

While I sympathize with going on how his best defensive years were primarily as a SF, to deny that he's a majority PF would be a departure from how we've been classifying players to this point in the project, imo (EDIT: as Dr Positivity said in post #41 re: precedent).

[trex_8063]

lynch, gus johnson, willie wise, rick fox, ok.

would you remove any of these guys?

Scottie Pippen
Bruce Bowen
Lebron James
Shane Battier
Kawhi Leonard
John Havlicek
Andre Iguodala
Metta World Peace
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirilenko
Derrick McKey
Joe Caldwell
Jamaal Wilkes
Robert Covington
Bob Dandridge
Luol Deng
Tom Sanders
Gerald Wallace
Rodney McCray

No, I would not remove anyone above, with the possible exception of Gus Johnson (who I've generally mentally classified slightly more as a PF----and fwiw, he played 52.9% of his career minutes in seasons listed at PF on bbref; but I don't feel strongly about it).

[Dr Positivity]

lynch, gus johnson, willie wise, rick fox, ok.

would you remove any of these guys?

Scottie Pippen
Bruce Bowen
Lebron James
Shane Battier
Kawhi Leonard
John Havlicek
Andre Iguodala
Metta World Peace
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirilenko
Derrick McKey
Joe Caldwell
Jamaal Wilkes
Robert Covington
Bob Dandridge
Luol Deng
Tom Sanders
Gerald Wallace
Rodney McCray

I don't think Covington has played enough for a career list; Jamaal Wilkes was not quite the caliber of the others here, McKey/McCray/Deng also don't seem like they would get any top 10 support (Caldwell won't either but that's more era than impact I would think).

I could see myself considering Deng by the 9th or 10th spots

[Gibson22]

So, are there any guys that you feel like I should open a poll about to decide their position? there have been doubts for rodman, debusschere, marion, kirilenko.

To me Kirilenko sf, marion sf but close to pf, debusschere you guys are saying sf, rodman sf.

anyway stephen jackson yes, paul george absolutely yes, paul pressey yes, anthony mason is a pf, we can put bill hanzlik

wrt the bolded: to the contrary, nearly all of us have been saying DeBusschere is a PF.

I still lump Rodman with the PF's (because that's where he played the majority of his career), though I don't disagree that the majority of his great defensive years came while playing primarily SF. His two DPOY awards both came in years playing more SF. However.....

*He's listed as PF in 9 of his 14 seasons (even if we omit the last two limited minute seasons, it's 7 of 12 seasons). 63.1% of his career minutes fall in PF seasons. If we call his prime '88-'97, that's four SF seasons, six PF seasons (60.1% of the minutes in that span at PF); even if you want to omit '97 from his prime, that's 5 of 9 seasons and 56.6% of prime minutes coming at PF.
**The years he was an All-Star: 1 at SF, 1 at PF.
***The years All-NBA: 0 at SF, 2 at PF.
****The years selected All-Defensive: 3 at SF, 5 at PF.

While I sympathize with going on how his best defensive years were primarily as a SF, to deny that he's a majority PF would be a departure from how we've been classifying players to this point in the project, imo (EDIT: as Dr Positivity said in post #41 re: precedent).

Yeah it was a typo

[70sFan]

Paul Pressey and Shawn Marion?

[70sFan]

lynch, gus johnson, willie wise, rick fox, ok.

would you remove any of these guys?

Scottie Pippen
Bruce Bowen
Lebron James
Shane Battier
Kawhi Leonard
John Havlicek
Andre Iguodala
Metta World Peace
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirilenko
Derrick McKey
Joe Caldwell
Jamaal Wilkes
Robert Covington
Bob Dandridge
Luol Deng
Tom Sanders
Gerald Wallace
Rodney McCray

I don't think Covington has played enough for a career list; Jamaal Wilkes was not quite the caliber of the others here, McKey/McCray/Deng also don't seem like they would get any top 10 support (Caldwell won't either but that's more era than impact I would think).

I think both Deng and Wilkes should be in conversation.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm inclined to say Rodman should be a 4 because that's what he played most of his career, but I do think the case for him as a 3 is a lot stronger than it initially seems. He won both of his DPOYs from the 3, and it was considered his natural position for a long time. The time he spent at the 4 isn't an overpowering majority.

Still, if I had to make the choice I'd have him as a 4. My philosophy on this is that we should take someone's whole career and player type into account to decide their position, not just what they did best or where they played good defense. And if I had to pick one position for Rodman it would be the 4.

Will you have Duncan as a 5 then?

[cecilthesheep]

I'm inclined to say Rodman should be a 4 because that's what he played most of his career, but I do think the case for him as a 3 is a lot stronger than it initially seems. He won both of his DPOYs from the 3, and it was considered his natural position for a long time. The time he spent at the 4 isn't an overpowering majority.

Still, if I had to make the choice I'd have him as a 4. My philosophy on this is that we should take someone's whole career and player type into account to decide their position, not just what they did best or where they played good defense. And if I had to pick one position for Rodman it would be the 4.

Will you have Duncan as a 5 then?

Fair question, but no for a variety of reasons. I'd rather save most of that for the next thread though.

[mdonnelly1989]

Scottie Pippen winning this is equivalent to the Warriors winning the 2019 Championship provided everyone stays health. Just give them the trophy and just give him #1 and move onto number 2 already

My top 3 I'm going to say assuming Rodman is at the 3.

#1. Scottie Pippen
#2. Ron Artest
#3. Kawhi

[Gibson22]

Is this the list?

Scottie Pippen
Bruce Bowen
Lebron James
Shane Battier
Kawhi Leonard
John Havlicek
Andre Iguodala
Metta World Peace
Tayshaun Prince
Andrei Kirilenko
Derrick McKey
Joe Caldwell
Jamaal Wilkes
Robert Covington
Bob Dandridge
Luol Deng
Tom Sanders
Gerald Wallace
Rodney McCray
Paul George
Bill Hanzlik
Paul Pressey
Stephen Jackson
Rick Fox
Posey
E.C.Coleman
George Lynch
Gus Johnson
Willie Wise
Marion
Grant Hill

If that's okay, let's list the guys who we are not sure about their role, so I open a poll about them, and then tomorrow we go on with the #1 place.
I'd say: gus johnson, kirilenko, rodman, marion. Okay?

[bledredwine]

Scottie Pippen winning this is equivalent to the Warriors winning the 2019 Championship provided everyone stays health. Just give them the trophy and just give him #1 and move onto number 2 already

My top 3 I'm going to say assuming Rodman is at the 3.

#1. Scottie Pippen
#2. Ron Artest
#3. Kawhi

I have the same top three with rodman in there somewhere.

[Gibson22]

So, apparently nobody thinks that rodman is a small forward viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1764713

[Gibson22]

I will open the next thread later

[Gibson22]

Ok, I'm going to open it now, the poll has clear results for andrei and shawn (sf) and even clearer for dennis (pf), gus johnson has way less votes and it is really unclear, 7 to 6 for the PF position