The Future is bright

[ezzzp]

“Good” free agents also don’t sign with mediocre teams that aren’t true contenders. They know the difference. Now this obviously depends on your definition of “good”, but the turnover of “good” free agents varies based on who they place their bets on to win.

Orlando will be overpaying “good” free agents until they are convincing enough to be contenders. That may or may not even happen with our two “best players” regardless. We were close enough to not making the playoffs this year. We could easily bring everyone back and not make them next year dependent on circumstances.

You are taking production at face value and upward projections too literally. Production doesn’t always replace production 100% of the time. There are more factors than that.

Yes they do, maybe not the superstar guys who only go to contenders or major markets, but good high quality players sign with teams who are clearly trying to get into playoffs all the time.

You don't have to overpay good unrestricted free agents if you have a good track record of maintaining competitive context. Teams like Utah, Indiana, Milwaukee etc continuously do that.

Just because you only choose to see the worst possible outcome doesn't make that the likely outcome.

Vucevic is in his peak prime for 2-3 years and nothing he did this year is all that unsustainable. In fact, I can see his 3pt shooting and passing get even better, as well as his team defense as continuity will give him boost.

Fournier had his worst shooting season ever, before last year he was ascending in all aspects of the game and had been improving every year before that...this upcoming season he'll be 27 thus entering what in NBA is the physical and production peak stage...its way more likely that he returns to form (or better) than that the opposite happens.

Gordon enters his peak ascent which is when young players often take a big step in productions and efficiency. He'll have that with oaching and system continuity if Vucevic is retained.

Bamba and Isaac will get bigger and stronger - that's inevitable...and they'll have more experience and have another full summer of individual player development with NBA level staff around them. If you want to think that equals them likely regressing, go right ahead.

Fultz is an unknown, but there is a reason he was #1 pick, he has talent even if he can't shoot. He's already as good if not better athlete, passer, way better ball handler and finisher than Elfrid Payton was...the upside is all-star PG/#1 option. That's not nothing.

+ their young role players (Iwundu/Frazier/Briscoe) also enter higher development level so likelihood is they come back better.

...and then the Magic are adding a #16 pick player to the roster.

[ezzzp]

Exactly. Tanking is losing on purpose. Going in a different direction isn’t “tanking”. Teams have gotten better moving on from players that have stabilized their rotations for years. People just aren't looking at these moves in a vacuum, not every move should be taken at face value. It’s completely situational depending on the plan.

No, not exactly.

If you don't resign your top two players without replacing them with two new top two players then you are creating a situation were the team will lose a ton of games...enough so that by January/February nobody on team gives a crap and best option is to just keep losing more.

Good free agents DO NOT sign with teams who have rosters that are going to lose a ton of games (intentionally or not).

Name the teams that have gotten better by losing their top two players.

Lebron James did.

You're joking right?

[Skin]

Over the next 4 years under Vuc's new contract, what do you hope to accomplish by doing that?

Creating a stable competitive context and the best opportunity for young core to play in as many meaningful games as possible during the most crucial stage of their maturation. That is the only proven and most respected method by NBA tier player development experts for developing young players.

Beautifully said. I agree.

Doesn't mean we need to keep Vuc to do that though. I think basing this team around him is fundamentally flawed. What NBA team has competed at a high level over a sustainable period of time using a soft center who at the time of the playoffs gets bullied on offense and defense?

You can't just say we need to keep our "best" player to keep our best player. The amount of financial burden can hurt the team for the entirety of his contract. Look how detrimental Biyombo and Fournier's contracts have placed a burden on us. Just to repeat dishing out contracts that you know will become a future burden is an unwise decision. Why do it? Just for the comfort of knowing you will continue to compete for the 6-8 spots in the East? Who says you will suffer if you save that money and spend it in other beneficial ways?

[Skin]

No, not exactly.

If you don't resign your top two players without replacing them with two new top two players then you are creating a situation were the team will lose a ton of games...enough so that by January/February nobody on team gives a crap and best option is to just keep losing more.

Good free agents DO NOT sign with teams who have rosters that are going to lose a ton of games (intentionally or not).

Name the teams that have gotten better by losing their top two players.

Lebron James did.

You're joking right?

No, you're joking if you think resigning Vuc is going to attract good free agents. We won't even be able to afford them.

[ezzzp]

Over the next 4 years under Vuc's new contract, what do you hope to accomplish by doing that?

Creating a stable competitive context and the best opportunity for young core to play in as many meaningful games as possible during the most crucial stage of their maturation. That is the only proven and most respected method by NBA tier player development experts for developing young players.

Beautifully said. I agree.

Doesn't mean we need to keep Vuc to do that though. I think basing this team around him is fundamentally flawed. What NBA team has competed at a high level over a sustainable period of time using a soft center who at the time of the playoffs gets bullied on offense and defense?

You can't just say we need to keep our "best" player to keep our best player. The amount of financial burden can hurt the team for the entirety of his contract. Look how detrimental Biyombo and Fournier's contracts have placed a burden on us. Just to repeat dishing out contracts that you know will become a future burden is an unwise decision. Why do it? Just for the comfort of knowing you will continue to compete for the 6-8 spots in the East? Who says you will suffer if you save that money and spend it in other beneficial ways?

Of course it means keeping Vucevic, that is an absolute must to maintain that context. You think that another 20/10 all-star signs with the Magic? What's your plan for replacing that production, consistency and essential system foundation?

I've dug deep into the Magic's cap situation over and over for the past few months and every time I arrive at the same conclusion. Their cap flexibility is non existent with or without Vucevic. He is the best and most realistic free agent and asset the Magic can acquire in the foreseeable future.

This was Vucevic's first true playoff experience...and it was vs his worst possible matchup. Its ridiculous to come to that conclusion from that small sample and vs that particular match up.

How in the world are you comparing those contracts to Vucevic's yet to be determined contract? How do you know the future production of Fultz, Bamba, Isaac and Gordon?

[Catledge]

Creating a stable competitive context and the best opportunity for young core to play in as many meaningful games as possible during the most crucial stage of their maturation. That is the only proven and most respected method by NBA tier player development experts for developing young players.

Beautifully said. I agree.

Doesn't mean we need to keep Vuc to do that though. I think basing this team around him is fundamentally flawed. What NBA team has competed at a high level over a sustainable period of time using a soft center who at the time of the playoffs gets bullied on offense and defense?

You can't just say we need to keep our "best" player to keep our best player. The amount of financial burden can hurt the team for the entirety of his contract. Look how detrimental Biyombo and Fournier's contracts have placed a burden on us. Just to repeat dishing out contracts that you know will become a future burden is an unwise decision. Why do it? Just for the comfort of knowing you will continue to compete for the 6-8 spots in the East? Who says you will suffer if you save that money and spend it in other beneficial ways?

Of course it means keeping Vucevic, that is an absolute must to maintain that context. You think that another 20/10 all-star signs with the Magic? What's your plan for replacing that production, consistency and essential system foundation?

I've dug deep into the Magic's cap situation over and over for the past few months and every time I arrive at the same conclusion. Their cap flexibility is non existent with or without Vucevic. He is the best and most realistic free agent and asset the Magic can acquire in the foreseeable future.

This was Vucevic's first true playoff experience...and it was vs his worst possible matchup. Its ridiculous to come to that conclusion from that small sample and vs that particular match up.

How in the world are you comparing those contracts to Vucevic's yet to be determined contract? How do you know the future production of Fultz, Bamba, Isaac and Gordon?

This is the thing that I keep not hearing from the Vooch haters.

If people hate Vooch so much that they want to get rid of him, they should come to terms with tanking.

[ezzzp]

Lebron James did.

You're joking right?

No, you're joking if you think resigning Vuc is going to attract good free agents. We won't even be able to afford them.

No, you’re joking if you think that resigning Vucevic isn’t a big step in beginning to change how free agents and their agents start to view the franchise. Especially if the Magic continue to build on this past season.

Tools like the MLE and the BAE start to be real options for solid free agents.

On top of that, having a competitive context expands the range of trades made for players the team wants to retain long term - as player resigning becomes actually realistic.

[pepe1991]

I said it 50000000000 times and it looks like it should be said again.

Regardless of Vučević and Ross staying or leaving, Orlando Magic for 2019 summer free agency will have SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY , because of CAP HOLDS

Translation: Magic have $18M in cap space to spend with Vučević and Ross staying, or going.


Using this lie as argument is depressing and shows one of two things;
a) complete lack of understandment of nba
b) agenda that bends truth to create false , non existing angle to defend claim

In both way it's a lie.


I could go through other claims and debunk each and every one of them ,but it's waste of time.

I'll just add one thing:
For same people who already have their "post Vučević era championship" tied with illusion of 2020 FA , they are about to get one rude awakening. It's THE worst free agency class in last decade, combined with one of the worst draft classes in years.

Literally every single nba expert already pointed out that most teams have zero desire to tank for next year because of that and that's also biggest reason why no big teams are creating cap space for next year.

[yoyojw17]

Beautifully said. I agree.

Doesn't mean we need to keep Vuc to do that though. I think basing this team around him is fundamentally flawed. What NBA team has competed at a high level over a sustainable period of time using a soft center who at the time of the playoffs gets bullied on offense and defense?

You can't just say we need to keep our "best" player to keep our best player. The amount of financial burden can hurt the team for the entirety of his contract. Look how detrimental Biyombo and Fournier's contracts have placed a burden on us. Just to repeat dishing out contracts that you know will become a future burden is an unwise decision. Why do it? Just for the comfort of knowing you will continue to compete for the 6-8 spots in the East? Who says you will suffer if you save that money and spend it in other beneficial ways?

Of course it means keeping Vucevic, that is an absolute must to maintain that context. You think that another 20/10 all-star signs with the Magic? What's your plan for replacing that production, consistency and essential system foundation?

I've dug deep into the Magic's cap situation over and over for the past few months and every time I arrive at the same conclusion. Their cap flexibility is non existent with or without Vucevic. He is the best and most realistic free agent and asset the Magic can acquire in the foreseeable future.

This was Vucevic's first true playoff experience...and it was vs his worst possible matchup. Its ridiculous to come to that conclusion from that small sample and vs that particular match up.

How in the world are you comparing those contracts to Vucevic's yet to be determined contract? How do you know the future production of Fultz, Bamba, Isaac and Gordon?

This is the thing that I keep not hearing from the Vooch haters.

If people hate Vooch so much that they want to get rid of him, they should come to terms with tanking.

and the thing is... what you think you are getting for his replacement.... might not work with what we have. I know what we have in vouch... and i'm comfortable building off of it. I remember when half the board wanted to trade for Westbrook... westbrook is a "Star".... and could have single handedly tear everything down... while giving away important pieces and now costing us nearly half our cap. hahah... "The grass isn't always greener on the other side" really does have true meaning.

[MagicMatic]

“Good” free agents also don’t sign with mediocre teams that aren’t true contenders. They know the difference. Now this obviously depends on your definition of “good”, but the turnover of “good” free agents varies based on who they place their bets on to win.

Orlando will be overpaying “good” free agents until they are convincing enough to be contenders. That may or may not even happen with our two “best players” regardless. We were close enough to not making the playoffs this year. We could easily bring everyone back and not make them next year dependent on circumstances.

You are taking production at face value and upward projections too literally. Production doesn’t always replace production 100% of the time. There are more factors than that.

Yes they do, maybe not the superstar guys who only go to contenders or major markets, but good high quality players sign with teams who are clearly trying to get into playoffs all the time.

You don't have to overpay good unrestricted free agents if you have a good track record of maintaining competitive context. Teams like Utah, Indiana, Milwaukee etc continuously do that.

Just because you only choose to see the worst possible outcome doesn't make that the likely outcome.

Vucevic is in his peak prime for 2-3 years and nothing he did this year is all that unsustainable. In fact, I can see his 3pt shooting and passing get even better, as well as his team defense as continuity will give him boost.

Fournier had his worst shooting season ever, before last year he was ascending in all aspects of the game and had been improving every year before that...this upcoming season he'll be 27 thus entering what in NBA is the physical and production peak stage...its way more likely that he returns to form (or better) than that the opposite happens.

Gordon enters his peak ascent which is when young players often take a big step in productions and efficiency. He'll have that with oaching and system continuity if Vucevic is retained.

Bamba and Isaac will get bigger and stronger - that's inevitable...and they'll have more experience and have another full summer of individual player development with NBA level staff around them. If you want to think that equals them likely regressing, go right ahead.

Fultz is an unknown, but there is a reason he was #1 pick, he has talent even if he can't shoot. He's already as good if not better athlete, passer, way better ball handler and finisher than Elfrid Payton was...the upside is all-star PG/#1 option. That's not nothing.

+ their young role players (Iwundu/Frazier/Briscoe) also enter higher development level so likelihood is they come back better.

...and then the Magic are adding a #16 pick player to the roster.

Nothing you are saying is false in terms of possibilities moving forward. However, you are still making pretty large assumptions regarding the development of the players.

Isaac and Bamba are just about the only guys that we can expect good to great improvement from. AG could possibly get better but who knows how much. Bamba being limited with Vuc’s needed minutes. Fultz could be something, he could also be nothing. #16 could be a contributer or nothing at all.

[Skin]

Creating a stable competitive context and the best opportunity for young core to play in as many meaningful games as possible during the most crucial stage of their maturation. That is the only proven and most respected method by NBA tier player development experts for developing young players.

Beautifully said. I agree.

Doesn't mean we need to keep Vuc to do that though. I think basing this team around him is fundamentally flawed. What NBA team has competed at a high level over a sustainable period of time using a soft center who at the time of the playoffs gets bullied on offense and defense?

You can't just say we need to keep our "best" player to keep our best player. The amount of financial burden can hurt the team for the entirety of his contract. Look how detrimental Biyombo and Fournier's contracts have placed a burden on us. Just to repeat dishing out contracts that you know will become a future burden is an unwise decision. Why do it? Just for the comfort of knowing you will continue to compete for the 6-8 spots in the East? Who says you will suffer if you save that money and spend it in other beneficial ways?

Of course it means keeping Vucevic, that is an absolute must to maintain that context. You think that another 20/10 all-star signs with the Magic? What's your plan for replacing that production, consistency and essential system foundation?

I've dug deep into the Magic's cap situation over and over for the past few months and every time I arrive at the same conclusion. Their cap flexibility is non existent with or without Vucevic. He is the best and most realistic free agent and asset the Magic can acquire in the foreseeable future.

This was Vucevic's first true playoff experience...and it was vs his worst possible matchup. Its ridiculous to come to that conclusion from that small sample and vs that particular match up.

How in the world are you comparing those contracts to Vucevic's yet to be determined contract? How do you know the future production of Fultz, Bamba, Isaac and Gordon?

So you failed to answer me. So what NBA team has won with a player like Vuc?

Getting another 20/10 regular season stat padder who fails to show up in the playoffs is not the solution. The problem is you think that we need to replace him if we lose him. I'm saying losing him will allow us to change our style of play and morph into a more modern NBA model. This center based offense is restrictive and outdated. Honestly, if Vuc just hung around the 3pt line and shot 3s, and accepted the contract of a role player, he'd be a fine player to have around. But no, Clifford designs our offense entirely around Vuc, to the point when he's being mitigated, we can't operate effectively otherwise. It doesn't help that we have the worst backcourt in the playoffs.

If Vuc is on GS, HOU, MIL, TOR, or BOS do you think they would change the way they are in order to be a center based offense? If yes, then please explain. If no, then why they heck are we doing it?

I'll admit that I need to spend more time at our cap situation. Last I heard we had around $18M if we renounced everyone??? That's enough to chase one of my main targets.

[Skin]

You're joking right?

No, you're joking if you think resigning Vuc is going to attract good free agents. We won't even be able to afford them.

No, you’re joking if you think that resigning Vucevic isn’t a big step in beginning to change how free agents and their agents start to view the franchise. Especially if the Magic continue to build on this past season.

Tools like the MLE and the BAE start to be real options for solid free agents.

On top of that, having a competitive context expands the range of trades made for players the team wants to retain long term - as player resigning becomes actually realistic.

Look, did it open up anyone's eyes when we resigned Harris? Fournier? Signed Biyombo? Gordon? Were those "big steps" towards attracting FAs in the Summer of 2019?

Who says we can't be competitive without Vuc? He's been here the last 7 years and we haven't been competitive. What does that say?

[Skin]

Beautifully said. I agree.

Doesn't mean we need to keep Vuc to do that though. I think basing this team around him is fundamentally flawed. What NBA team has competed at a high level over a sustainable period of time using a soft center who at the time of the playoffs gets bullied on offense and defense?

You can't just say we need to keep our "best" player to keep our best player. The amount of financial burden can hurt the team for the entirety of his contract. Look how detrimental Biyombo and Fournier's contracts have placed a burden on us. Just to repeat dishing out contracts that you know will become a future burden is an unwise decision. Why do it? Just for the comfort of knowing you will continue to compete for the 6-8 spots in the East? Who says you will suffer if you save that money and spend it in other beneficial ways?

Of course it means keeping Vucevic, that is an absolute must to maintain that context. You think that another 20/10 all-star signs with the Magic? What's your plan for replacing that production, consistency and essential system foundation?

I've dug deep into the Magic's cap situation over and over for the past few months and every time I arrive at the same conclusion. Their cap flexibility is non existent with or without Vucevic. He is the best and most realistic free agent and asset the Magic can acquire in the foreseeable future.

This was Vucevic's first true playoff experience...and it was vs his worst possible matchup. Its ridiculous to come to that conclusion from that small sample and vs that particular match up.

How in the world are you comparing those contracts to Vucevic's yet to be determined contract? How do you know the future production of Fultz, Bamba, Isaac and Gordon?

This is the thing that I keep not hearing from the Vooch haters.

If people hate Vooch so much that they want to get rid of him, they should come to terms with tanking.

No that's been mentioned many times...

What isn't happening is that NOT A SINGLE VUC SUPPORTER IS WILLING TO LAYOUT THEIR WAY FORWARD... that doesn't include ridiculous wishes like hoping Kemba signs here... or hoping we trade for Beal... Even I laid out an idea to bring in Jrue Holiday and that felt ridiculous just thinking about it.

Show me a roster for 2020 and beyond.

[MagicMatic]

No, you're joking if you think resigning Vuc is going to attract good free agents. We won't even be able to afford them.

No, you’re joking if you think that resigning Vucevic isn’t a big step in beginning to change how free agents and their agents start to view the franchise. Especially if the Magic continue to build on this past season.

Tools like the MLE and the BAE start to be real options for solid free agents.

On top of that, having a competitive context expands the range of trades made for players the team wants to retain long term - as player resigning becomes actually realistic.

Look, did it open up anyone's eyes when we resigned Harris? Fournier? Signed Biyombo? Gordon? Were those "big steps" towards attracting FAs in the Summer of 2019?

Who says we can't be competitive without Vuc? He's been here the last 7 years and we haven't been competitive. What does that say?

It says people believe he needs to be in a Magic uniform for a decade before we can truly compete in free agency.

Look, I get retaining the asset, but what does his trade value even look like with most likely the largest contract he will get in his career. All while not being a first or second option on a true contender? He’s only more valuable to Orlando because of what we lack, not because he’s actually providing that in other systems.

Production and value isn’t 1:1 for every team. This isn’t NBA2k.

[ezzzp]

No, you’re joking if you think that resigning Vucevic isn’t a big step in beginning to change how free agents and their agents start to view the franchise. Especially if the Magic continue to build on this past season.

Tools like the MLE and the BAE start to be real options for solid free agents.

On top of that, having a competitive context expands the range of trades made for players the team wants to retain long term - as player resigning becomes actually realistic.

Look, did it open up anyone's eyes when we resigned Harris? Fournier? Signed Biyombo? Gordon? Were those "big steps" towards attracting FAs in the Summer of 2019?

Who says we can't be competitive without Vuc? He's been here the last 7 years and we haven't been competitive. What does that say?

Uh, the Magic were NOT in a competitive context. They were knee deep in rebuild/tank when they signed Harris and used their little bit of cap space to overpay for his cousin. In the next offseason the team was in literal free fall. The coach had just quit and the GM had just traded away its best player (Oladipo). Nobody was joining that s**t show.

Vucevic was the reason the Magic made the playoffs in year 7. Prior to that, in 4 of those 6 years the rosters were literally built to lose on purpose. Blaming him for Hennigan's tank strategy is ridiculous. In another of those seasons (17-18) it was massive injuries that derailed the season. So really it was only in 1 of those 6 years (16-17), that you can kind of point to Vucevic and for anyone watching closely the majority of the blame was on Vogel trying to construct offense around his "new Paul George" Aaron Gordon and the dysfunction with Ibaka. With one season with a good coach, Vucevic carried his team to the playoffs.

[Skin]

No, you’re joking if you think that resigning Vucevic isn’t a big step in beginning to change how free agents and their agents start to view the franchise. Especially if the Magic continue to build on this past season.

Tools like the MLE and the BAE start to be real options for solid free agents.

On top of that, having a competitive context expands the range of trades made for players the team wants to retain long term - as player resigning becomes actually realistic.

Look, did it open up anyone's eyes when we resigned Harris? Fournier? Signed Biyombo? Gordon? Were those "big steps" towards attracting FAs in the Summer of 2019?

Who says we can't be competitive without Vuc? He's been here the last 7 years and we haven't been competitive. What does that say?

Uh, the Magic were NOT in a competitive context. They were knee deep in rebuild/tank when they signed Harris and used their little bit of cap space to overpay for his cousin. In the next offseason the team was in literal free fall. The coach had just quit and the GM had just traded away its best player (Oladipo). Nobody was joining that s**t show.

Vucevic has been here 7 years and he was the reason the Magic made the playoffs. Prior to that, in 4 of those 6 years the rosters were literally built to lose on purpose. Blaming him for Hennigan's tank strategy is ridiculous. In another of those seasons (17-18) it was massive injuries that derailed the season. So really it was only in 1 of those 6 years (16-17), that you can kind of point to Vucevic and for anyone watching closely the majority of the blame was on Vogel trying to construct offense with his "new Paul George" Aaron Gordon and the dysfunction with Ibaka. With one season with a good coach, Vucevic carried his team to the playoffs.

Show me your winning way forward. I dare you.

[ezzzp]

Look, did it open up anyone's eyes when we resigned Harris? Fournier? Signed Biyombo? Gordon? Were those "big steps" towards attracting FAs in the Summer of 2019?

Who says we can't be competitive without Vuc? He's been here the last 7 years and we haven't been competitive. What does that say?

Uh, the Magic were NOT in a competitive context. They were knee deep in rebuild/tank when they signed Harris and used their little bit of cap space to overpay for his cousin. In the next offseason the team was in literal free fall. The coach had just quit and the GM had just traded away its best player (Oladipo). Nobody was joining that s**t show.

Vucevic has been here 7 years and he was the reason the Magic made the playoffs. Prior to that, in 4 of those 6 years the rosters were literally built to lose on purpose. Blaming him for Hennigan's tank strategy is ridiculous. In another of those seasons (17-18) it was massive injuries that derailed the season. So really it was only in 1 of those 6 years (16-17), that you can kind of point to Vucevic and for anyone watching closely the majority of the blame was on Vogel trying to construct offense with his "new Paul George" Aaron Gordon and the dysfunction with Ibaka. With one season with a good coach, Vucevic carried his team to the playoffs.

Show me your winning way forward. I dare you.

I have already told you this...I dare you to go back and read.

[Bensational]

I'm not sure why both sides can't agree that a playoff competitive version of the team can be built with or without Vuc. It all starts and ends with backcourt improvement, anyway.

With him, we will have limited cap flexibility, so we'll need to find either:

a) sign an Isaiah Thomas/Spencer Dinwiddie/Lou Williams type diamond in the rough deal.

b) an Isaiah Thomas (Suns to Boston)/ Levert for Thad Young/type steal deal.

c) draft a Donovan Mitchell/SGA/Derrick White/Monte Morris/Brogdon type impact backcourt player.

d) have significant player improvement.

Without Vuc, you probably want to be looking for the same things rather than sinking big bucks into Brogdon or Oubre (and I'm a big fan of both) and continuing to limit your cap flexibility, anyway.

Vuc isn't a problem, and with more competent options to take the ball out of his hands, Clifford will do so. He's not a guy who's made a career off running a C based offense.

The real question should be: What do we do with Fournier?

[Skin]

Uh, the Magic were NOT in a competitive context. They were knee deep in rebuild/tank when they signed Harris and used their little bit of cap space to overpay for his cousin. In the next offseason the team was in literal free fall. The coach had just quit and the GM had just traded away its best player (Oladipo). Nobody was joining that s**t show.

Vucevic has been here 7 years and he was the reason the Magic made the playoffs. Prior to that, in 4 of those 6 years the rosters were literally built to lose on purpose. Blaming him for Hennigan's tank strategy is ridiculous. In another of those seasons (17-18) it was massive injuries that derailed the season. So really it was only in 1 of those 6 years (16-17), that you can kind of point to Vucevic and for anyone watching closely the majority of the blame was on Vogel trying to construct offense with his "new Paul George" Aaron Gordon and the dysfunction with Ibaka. With one season with a good coach, Vucevic carried his team to the playoffs.

Show me your winning way forward. I dare you.

I have already told you this...I dare you to go back and read.

I said "winning" way forward. You basically said, keep everything as is and add our 16th pick and we're golden. That's not winning buddy.

[ezzzp]

Show me your winning way forward. I dare you.

I have already told you this...I dare you to go back and read.

I said "winning" way forward. You basically said, keep everything as is and add our 16th pick and we're golden. That's not winning buddy.

That's not what I said, go back and reread and this time take your bias goggles off.