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The Future is bright

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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#181 » by Skin » Fri May 3, 2019 12:05 am

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
I have already told you this...I dare you to go back and read.

I said "winning" way forward. You basically said, keep everything as is and add our 16th pick and we're golden. That's not winning buddy.


That's not what I said, go back and reread and this time take your bias goggles off.

We both have bias bro.

I'm not going digging. If you're embarrassed to restate your claim, I get it.

But if you calm down and decide to show me your roster ideas, then at least you can say you're not hiding out of embarrassment.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#182 » by ezzzp » Fri May 3, 2019 12:18 am

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:I said "winning" way forward. You basically said, keep everything as is and add our 16th pick and we're golden. That's not winning buddy.


That's not what I said, go back and reread and this time take your bias goggles off.

We both have bias bro.

I'm not going digging. If you're embarrassed to restate your claim, I get it.

But if you calm down and decide to show me your roster ideas, then at least you can say you're not hiding out of embarrassment.


Bro, maybe you should calm down and do your own digging. I've seen you pull this same crap with others when you are proven wrong, its an obvious deflection in attempts to rehash same argument without facing how your bias keeps getting torn apart.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#183 » by Skin » Fri May 3, 2019 12:35 am

ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
That's not what I said, go back and reread and this time take your bias goggles off.

We both have bias bro.

I'm not going digging. If you're embarrassed to restate your claim, I get it.

But if you calm down and decide to show me your roster ideas, then at least you can say you're not hiding out of embarrassment.


Bro, maybe you should calm down and do your own digging. I've seen you pull this same crap with others when you are proven wrong, its an obvious deflection in attempts to rehash same argument without facing how your bias keeps getting torn apart.

Don't worry. You're gonna get exactly what you want. Vuc no doubt will be resigned.

But I'll be right. We ain't winning **** with him as our starting C.

Vuc is too soft. Ain't nothing you can say to tear that apart.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#184 » by ezzzp » Fri May 3, 2019 12:46 am

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:We both have bias bro.

I'm not going digging. If you're embarrassed to restate your claim, I get it.

But if you calm down and decide to show me your roster ideas, then at least you can say you're not hiding out of embarrassment.


Bro, maybe you should calm down and do your own digging. I've seen you pull this same crap with others when you are proven wrong, its an obvious deflection in attempts to rehash same argument without facing how your bias keeps getting torn apart.

Don't worry. You're gonna get exactly what you want. Vuc no doubt will be resigned.

But I'll be right. We ain't winning **** with him as our starting C.

Vuc is too soft. Ain't nothing you can say to tear that apart.


You'll keep convincing yourself you're right, that is obvious.

Vucevic isn't the end point, if you'd taken the time to read and comprehend what most pro-Vucevic people are saying you'd know that.

FYI, Magic just won the South East Division + had 8th best defense in NBA with him as our starting C. Step one.

Oh and NBA coaches just chose him to be an All-Star, not the casual fan popularity vote, but NBA Coaches.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#185 » by MagicMatic » Fri May 3, 2019 1:26 am

Bensational wrote:I'm not sure why both sides can't agree that a playoff competitive version of the team can be built with or without Vuc. It all starts and ends with backcourt improvement, anyway.

With him, we will have limited cap flexibility, so we'll need to find either:

a) sign an Isaiah Thomas/Spencer Dinwiddie/Lou Williams type diamond in the rough deal.

b) an Isaiah Thomas (Suns to Boston)/ Levert for Thad Young/type steal deal.

c) draft a Donovan Mitchell/SGA/Derrick White/Monte Morris/Brogdon type impact backcourt player.

d) have significant player improvement.

Without Vuc, you probably want to be looking for the same things rather than sinking big bucks into Brogdon or Oubre (and I'm a big fan of both) and continuing to limit your cap flexibility, anyway.

Vuc isn't a problem, and with more competent options to take the ball out of his hands, Clifford will do so. He's not a guy who's made a career off running a C based offense.

The real question should be: What do we do with Fournier?


That’s the issue. People think we are completely reliant on Vuc in order to make a playoff competitive roster. Without him people assume we are “tanking”.There IS a grey area to that. I mean.. we stole game 1 IN Toronto essentially without him. Looked “competitive” to me.

You listed the number of ways we could possibly get better with him. All slim chances IMO. People just don’t want to face reality that rebuilding without him is going to be an inevitability at some juncture.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#186 » by Def Swami » Fri May 3, 2019 1:44 am

Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
Skin wrote:No, you're joking if you think resigning Vuc is going to attract good free agents. We won't even be able to afford them.


No, you’re joking if you think that resigning Vucevic isn’t a big step in beginning to change how free agents and their agents start to view the franchise. Especially if the Magic continue to build on this past season.

Tools like the MLE and the BAE start to be real options for solid free agents.

On top of that, having a competitive context expands the range of trades made for players the team wants to retain long term - as player resigning becomes actually realistic.

Look, did it open up anyone's eyes when we resigned Harris? Fournier? Signed Biyombo? Gordon? Were those "big steps" towards attracting FAs in the Summer of 2019?

Who says we can't be competitive without Vuc? He's been here the last 7 years and we haven't been competitive. What does that say?

Vucevic becoming arguably a top 15 player in the league and Clifford are the real two reasons were even competitive this past season.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#187 » by ezzzp » Fri May 3, 2019 1:49 am

Bensational wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm not sure why both sides can't agree that a playoff competitive version of the team can be built with or without Vuc. It all starts and ends with backcourt improvement, anyway.

With him, we will have limited cap flexibility, so we'll need to find either:

a) sign an Isaiah Thomas/Spencer Dinwiddie/Lou Williams type diamond in the rough deal.

b) an Isaiah Thomas (Suns to Boston)/ Levert for Thad Young/type steal deal.

c) draft a Donovan Mitchell/SGA/Derrick White/Monte Morris/Brogdon type impact backcourt player.

d) have significant player improvement.

Without Vuc, you probably want to be looking for the same things rather than sinking big bucks into Brogdon or Oubre (and I'm a big fan of both) and continuing to limit your cap flexibility, anyway.

Vuc isn't a problem, and with more competent options to take the ball out of his hands, Clifford will do so. He's not a guy who's made a career off running a C based offense.

The real question should be: What do we do with Fournier?



• If Magic sign Vucevic and sign Ross they have: MLE (tax $5.7m or non-tax $9.2m) + BAE ($3.6m)

PG: Augustin / Fultz
SG: Fournier / Ross / Frazier
SF: Gordon / Iwundu
PF: Isaac / X
C: Vucevic / Bamba

+ 16th pick

• If Magic sign Vucevic (no Ross) they have: Non-Tax MLE ($9.2m) + BAE ($3.6m)

PG: Augustin / Fultz
SG: Fournier / X / Frazier
SF: Gordon | Iwundu
PF: Isaac / X
C: Vucevic | Bamba

+ 16th pick

• If Magic sign Ross (no Vucevic) they have: Non-Tax MLE ($9.2m) + BAE ($3.6m)

PG: Augustin / Fultz
SG: Fournier / Ross / Frazier
SF: Gordon / Iwundu
PF: Isaac / X
C: Bamba / X

+ 16th pick

• If Magic don't sign either they have: $16.2m Cap Room + Room MLE ($4.5m) + BAE ($3.5m )

PG: Augustin / Fultz
SG: Fournier / X / Frazier
SF: Gordon / Iwundu
PF: Isaac / X
C: Bamba / X

+ 16th pick
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#188 » by Bensational » Fri May 3, 2019 1:56 am

Def Swami wrote:
Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
No, you’re joking if you think that resigning Vucevic isn’t a big step in beginning to change how free agents and their agents start to view the franchise. Especially if the Magic continue to build on this past season.

Tools like the MLE and the BAE start to be real options for solid free agents.

On top of that, having a competitive context expands the range of trades made for players the team wants to retain long term - as player resigning becomes actually realistic.

Look, did it open up anyone's eyes when we resigned Harris? Fournier? Signed Biyombo? Gordon? Were those "big steps" towards attracting FAs in the Summer of 2019?

Who says we can't be competitive without Vuc? He's been here the last 7 years and we haven't been competitive. What does that say?

Vucevic becoming arguably a top 15 player in the league and Clifford are the real two reasons were even competitive this past season.


And Ross. People really seem to forget how much impact Ross made for us this season. It was a three pronged improvement.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#189 » by Def Swami » Fri May 3, 2019 2:09 am

We can all agree that the Magic need huge upgrades in their back court that can keep this team sustainable for the next decade. I just don't believe that letting Vucevic's free agency should really factor into that. There's obviously a contract threshold where bringing him back defeats the purpose, and we can take some solace in Weltman acknowledging that. But, the Magic aren't going to really add any key players in free agency that can make up the deficit in their back court via free agency, whether Vucevic is here or not.

The Magic are going to be reliant on trades and drafting well and bargain bin shopping on the free agency market. I agree with Ben, one of the real questions is what the Magic can do with Fournier this off-season. And what can they do with the #16 pick. Along with internal improvement, this is how the Magic should aim to go from 42 to 48 wins.

I know that Skin is concerned about building a more modern roster, as am I. I also believe that the Magic are going to take approaches that other teams have, like the Raptors, and develop their younger talent while trying to remain competitive. The Magic actually have a nice stable of young players that we should hope to get better between Gordon, Isaac, Bamba, and Fultz. This is also why I'm pretty hesitant to deal one unless it returns an all-star caliber player in their mid-20's that can grow with the team. I think we're in good position to build off of our competitive season while developing these key players. And if Vucevic chooses to walk or the Magic choose to go another direction, we have the luxury of falling back on Bamba. But, realistically, the Magic would take a step back competitively.

I still think the Magic are a really good guard away from building something sustainable. If Fultz pans out, the Magic are in really good shape. If they get lucky in the draft or are aggressive enough to move up to take a player they like (like Utah did for Donovan Mitchell), they're outlook is a lot different.

Regardless of whether they choose to tank or build off their season, Weltman and Hammond have to earn their paychecks here. They have to figure out how to use the draft and trade market to make this team take the next step forward. And I'm not sure that Vucevic's being here or not really changes that. I anticipate that they'd prefer to remain competitive during that time, and keeping Vucevic at the moment is the most realistic way to accomplish that.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#190 » by J the Drafter » Fri May 3, 2019 2:18 am

[quote="Bensational"][/quote]We also benefited from an absence of the perennial “player or two misses several weeks worth of games” infliction. We ditched our old medical staff, and for the first time in forever no one went out with injury for extended time.
Remember when Kobe elbowed Jameer in the chin so hard Jameer was knocked down and sent skidding across the floor?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.*

*Futurama
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#191 » by pepe1991 » Fri May 3, 2019 6:39 am

If we let Vuc and Ross go, i highly doubt team will reach 30 wins
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#192 » by pepe1991 » Fri May 3, 2019 7:08 am

MagicMatic wrote:
Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
No, you’re joking if you think that resigning Vucevic isn’t a big step in beginning to change how free agents and their agents start to view the franchise. Especially if the Magic continue to build on this past season.

Tools like the MLE and the BAE start to be real options for solid free agents.

On top of that, having a competitive context expands the range of trades made for players the team wants to retain long term - as player resigning becomes actually realistic.

Look, did it open up anyone's eyes when we resigned Harris? Fournier? Signed Biyombo? Gordon? Were those "big steps" towards attracting FAs in the Summer of 2019?

Who says we can't be competitive without Vuc? He's been here the last 7 years and we haven't been competitive. What does that say?


It says people believe he needs to be in a Magic uniform for a decade before we can truly compete in free agency. :lol:

Look, I get retaining the asset, but what does his trade value even look like with most likely the largest contract he will get in his career. All while not being a first or second option on a true contender? He’s only more valuable to Orlando because of what we lack, not because he’s actually providing that in other systems.

Production and value isn’t 1:1 for every team. This isn’t NBA2k.


Again ( and again, and again, and again.....) Magic will have same amount of money to spend on free agents with or without Vučević.
Their need to upgrade roster goes beyond Vučević and Ross.

What's plan with Vučević and Ross locked on longer deals?
Simple. Use trades, Evan, Mozgov and one of your younger assets to explore trade options for allstar level players that will become aveliable in trades like every year. If team like Pelicans decide to blow out roster, you can explore for Holiday.
How long will OKC pay $100M (next year $150M ) of luxury tax to keep George AND Westbrook? Dennis Schroder comes as logical peace to trade off to save money.
Will Bradley Beal be aveliable in trades soon ? I assume yes.
How long will Blazers ( who's owner died ) are willing to pay luxury tax for roster that has no cap space for any upgrades, yet is every year highest payed roster in basketball.
What will Cavs do with K Love , JR , TT as they still are in luxury cap. (repeated).
What will Raptors do with rest of their talents if Leonard leaves ?
Will Celtics need cap relieaf like Mozgov to give them enough cap space to operate after Anthony Davis trade ?

There are A LOT of teams that can benefit from taking 1 massive contract for 1 year to streach it out or to have salary relief next summer. Right now , 4 teams are in luxury cap territory.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#193 » by MagicMatic » Fri May 3, 2019 7:59 am

pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
Skin wrote:Look, did it open up anyone's eyes when we resigned Harris? Fournier? Signed Biyombo? Gordon? Were those "big steps" towards attracting FAs in the Summer of 2019?

Who says we can't be competitive without Vuc? He's been here the last 7 years and we haven't been competitive. What does that say?


It says people believe he needs to be in a Magic uniform for a decade before we can truly compete in free agency. :lol:

Look, I get retaining the asset, but what does his trade value even look like with most likely the largest contract he will get in his career. All while not being a first or second option on a true contender? He’s only more valuable to Orlando because of what we lack, not because he’s actually providing that in other systems.

Production and value isn’t 1:1 for every team. This isn’t NBA2k.


Again ( and again, and again, and again.....) Magic will have same amount of money to spend on free agents with or without Vučević.
Their need to upgrade roster goes beyond Vučević and Ross.

What's plan with Vučević and Ross locked on longer deals?
Simple. Use trades, Evan, Mozgov and one of your younger assets to explore trade options for allstar level players that will become aveliable in trades like every year. If team like Pelicans decide to blow out roster, you can explore for Holiday.
How long will OKC pay $100M (next year $150M ) of luxury tax to keep George AND Westbrook? Dennis Schroder comes as logical peace to trade off to save money.
Will Bradley Beal be aveliable in trades soon ? I assume yes.
How long will Blazers ( who's owner died ) are willing to pay luxury tax for roster that has no cap space for any upgrades, yet is every year highest payed roster in basketball.
What will Cavs do with K Love , JR , TT as they still are in luxury cap. (repeated).
What will Raptors do with rest of their talents if Leonard leaves ?
Will Celtics need cap relieaf like Mozgov to give them enough cap space to operate after Anthony Davis trade ?

There are A LOT of teams that can benefit from taking 1 massive contract for 1 year to streach it out or to have salary relief next summer. Right now , 4 teams are in luxury cap territory.


It’s not about the money per se. Free agency isn’t an option unless it’s an overpay for a middling team. Your examples are huge assumptions based on what teams could possibly do. That’s not a reason to resign players to big contracts despite being a handful of games out of the playoffs entirely.

You sign a 28 year old Center to a big contract, for a number of years, and the asset becomes difficult to move later for equal to moderate return. Who in the nba is looking for a Center with his skill set? Not many teams. For example, Kevin Love is a terrible contract at age 30 and extremely difficult to move for that exact reason. You think Cleveland would get equal return on that trade? Not a chance in hell.

Orlando isn’t going to lowball Vuc just because they can and he won’t take a discount on his prime year contract. They will pay him relative to what they think he’s worth.

But again, it’s not about the money. It’s about the time Orlando would be investing in mediocrity. They could actually solve bigger roster issues, but they’d rather be a semi competitive fringe playoff team with the same issues they’ve had for years.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#194 » by pepe1991 » Fri May 3, 2019 8:44 am

MagicMatic wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
MagicMatic wrote:
It says people believe he needs to be in a Magic uniform for a decade before we can truly compete in free agency. :lol:

Look, I get retaining the asset, but what does his trade value even look like with most likely the largest contract he will get in his career. All while not being a first or second option on a true contender? He’s only more valuable to Orlando because of what we lack, not because he’s actually providing that in other systems.

Production and value isn’t 1:1 for every team. This isn’t NBA2k.


Again ( and again, and again, and again.....) Magic will have same amount of money to spend on free agents with or without Vučević.
Their need to upgrade roster goes beyond Vučević and Ross.

What's plan with Vučević and Ross locked on longer deals?
Simple. Use trades, Evan, Mozgov and one of your younger assets to explore trade options for allstar level players that will become aveliable in trades like every year. If team like Pelicans decide to blow out roster, you can explore for Holiday.
How long will OKC pay $100M (next year $150M ) of luxury tax to keep George AND Westbrook? Dennis Schroder comes as logical peace to trade off to save money.
Will Bradley Beal be aveliable in trades soon ? I assume yes.
How long will Blazers ( who's owner died ) are willing to pay luxury tax for roster that has no cap space for any upgrades, yet is every year highest payed roster in basketball.
What will Cavs do with K Love , JR , TT as they still are in luxury cap. (repeated).
What will Raptors do with rest of their talents if Leonard leaves ?
Will Celtics need cap relieaf like Mozgov to give them enough cap space to operate after Anthony Davis trade ?

There are A LOT of teams that can benefit from taking 1 massive contract for 1 year to streach it out or to have salary relief next summer. Right now , 4 teams are in luxury cap territory.


It’s not about the money per se. Free agency isn’t an option unless it’s an overpay for a middling team. Your examples are huge assumptions based on what teams could possibly do. That’s not a reason to resign players to big contracts despite being a handful of games out of the playoffs entirely.

You sign a 28 year old Center to a big contract, for a number of years, and the asset becomes difficult to move later for equal to moderate return. Who in the nba is looking for a Center with his skill set? Not many teams. For example, Kevin Love is one of the worst contracts in basketball at age 30 and a difficult contract to move.

Orlando isn’t going to lowball Vuc just because they can and he won’t take a discount on his prime year contract. They will pay him relative to what they think he’s worth.

But again, it’s not about the money. It’s about the time Orlando would be investing in mediocrity. They could actually solve bigger roster issues, but they’d rather be a semi competitive fringe playoff team with the same issues Orlando has had for years.



It’s not about the money per se.

So where is the problem ?


Your examples are huge assumptions based on what teams could possibly do. That’s not a reason to resign players to big contracts despite being a handful of games out of the playoffs entirely.

Almost every team holds on their assets and good players because they don't grow on trees.

You sign a 28 year old Center to a big contract, for a number of years, and the asset becomes difficult to move later for equal to moderate return. Who in the nba is looking for a Center with his skill set?


Embiid and Jokić are headed to conference finals right now, completely debunking your points against buliding around center.
Almost every single nba contract is tradable.

For example, Kevin Love is one of the worst contracts in basketball at age 30 and a difficult contract to move.

Kevin Love has health issues that date back to his second nba season. Healthy Love was part of championship roster. Nobody questions his talent, but health plays big part of him being hard to move. Much like Parsons,Batum and Wall.
Nikola Vučević alraedy has trackrecord that proves he is healthy player year in and year out.

Orlando isn’t going to lowball Vuc just because they can and he won’t take a discount on his prime year contract. They will pay him relative to what they think he’s worth.

They will pay him what is his market value. Just like all bad contracts were payed. Context and common sense in that moment around league plays factor in every free agency decision.

Orlando would be investing in mediocrity. They could actually solve bigger roster issues, but they’d rather be a semi competitive fringe playoff team with the same issues Orlando has had for year

Magic young players are as mediocre as it gets. Every person with sense of logic would dump Gordon,isaac, Bamba and Fultz to get Tatum or Dončić.
Rookie Bamba was unplayable.
Fultz probably will never come close to to his 1# draft pick expetations and there is still even question mark will he even ever play again.
Isaac is replacment level talent in this moment.
Gordon is 6th year player next year without star potential.

So what and who execlly Magic put in jeopardy if they sign Vučević and build roster around him? Nothing and nobody. Because without him Magic are back into deep lottery and another painful rebuild while searching for player that will one day MAYBE put 20-11 and be allstar.

Why don't Raptors rebuild ? I mean, why they want to pay Leonard ? He is old, according to you and Skin, he is same age as Vučević, they already have elite player in Siakam, so what's up with all that Lowry, Ibaka, M. Gasol thing ? why not play youth ?
Why don't Blazers rebuild? They won't pass second round and their star Lillard is same age as Vučević
Why don't OKc rebuild? Their main star is older than Vučević and they are going nowhere?
Why don't Lakers rebuild? Their main star is 5 years older than Vučević
Why don't Spurs rebuild? Their main stars are same age as Vuc and second is older
Why don't Net's rebuild? Their main star is C level star in reality.
Why don't Pistons rebuild? Their main star is 30?
Why don't Hornets rebuild? Their main star is 30
Why don't Heat rebuild? Their main star is 32.
Rockets pay $38M to 34 years old Paul. Will lose in second round.

See, this shallow, flawed "we don't contend, we should blow it up" logic would in your opinion force every single NBA team not named Golden State , Celtics and Bucks to rebuild. Yet non of them even thinks about rebuild.
I'm sure that you would probably blew up Warriors in 2016 because " Curry got old, 28, time for rebuild".

Reality: teams don't rebuild because it's long, painful ,and in most cases results are underwhelming.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#195 » by Skybox » Fri May 3, 2019 10:11 am

MagicMatic wrote: I mean.. we stole game 1 IN Toronto essentially without him. Looked “competitive” to me.



We didn't win Game 1 WITHOUT Vuc...The Raptors wisely game-planned Vuc out of Game 1 (and the rest of the series) because his supporting cast has not proven itself capable of stepping up as consistently as he has all season. A superior team had the depth to neutralize our one consistent threat and, on one night, the gamble that DJ and others couldn't answer the bell didn't work...Once. If Vuc had ONE other player capable of stepping up every night, or demanding defensive attention, this team is a real playoff threat. Magic were a playoff team because 4 or 5 guys are capable of having a strong night on any given night...Consistency is the difference. Nobody is shocked when Ross or Gordon or Augustin or Evan go for 25 points...but nobody is surprised when any of them go for 9 either...Almost any single player can be game-planned out of a game, but if you take out Durant (for example)-at least two other guys can be counted on to go for 30.

Having said that...If they don't have Gasol, this could have been a very different series, even with defensive emphasis on Vuc. Vuc basically ignored Ibaka's defense in the post, like he did to most centers in the league. I'm not in love with the guy or even want him to be option #1, but it's silly to attack the guy who carried us, nearly every night, in multiple statistical categories, from day one of our best season in years. He needs to be given a complementary offensive player, not replaced...Ross was that guy (on even numbered nights :banghead: ). I love Ross flame throwing off the bench but if that's your building block, you're in trouble.

I still think he comes in less than 23/yr...hopefully declining deal.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#196 » by pepe1991 » Fri May 3, 2019 10:42 am

D'angelo just got arrested while trying to sumggle weed through airport...
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#197 » by Bensational » Fri May 3, 2019 11:32 am

Skybox wrote:Having said that...If they don't have Gasol, this could have been a very different series, even with defensive emphasis on Vuc. Vuc basically ignored Ibaka's defense in the post, like he did to most centers in the league.


I think Vuc is valuable to have, but a lot is getting lost in the hyperbole with both sides trying to paint an absolute on what Vuc is or isn't.

For example, there's a misconception that Vuc owned Ibaka in the playoffs, but he didn't. He shot 33% against Gasol, and 36% against Ibaka. Vuc's whole game was thrown off in the playoffs.

People say it was a bad match up, but throughout the season Vuc struggled in the clutch when the pressure was on, against a lot of teams. He was our leading shooter in clutch situations, and he was the worst scorer in those situations, shooting 37%. That's over 46 games, so it's a solid sample size.

Vuc just gets flustered with heavy defense. He gets rattled when the stakes are high, and rushes his shots. I think he would have struggled against any of the top 4 eastern conference teams, because they can all play high pressure defense, and have bigs who can body him up.

People also say that his 82 games count more than 5 games in the playoffs. But, he also has 6 prior seasons of 82 game samples behind him. So when you factor in that:

- it's a contract year for him
- he had a favourable coaching addition
- teams now have a much stronger idea on how to defend and gameplan for him

it's got to make you wary of exactly how much you want to pay him. What if we pay him $20M+ and due to the factors above he regresses? Then we're stuck with a guy we can't move.

These are, to me, the most concerning 'cons' when weighing up whether to bring Vuc back or not. It can't be denied that there's a significant gamble in it.

That said, the 'pros' speak for themselves, too. He's a big man with a smooth offense that can be relied upon for 3 quarters of the game, he has range to the 3 (and is working to improve that even more), he passes extremely well, Cliff had his defense at a very capable level this season, and he now has a taste of the playoffs. He was a reliable leader for the team for most of this season, and he anchored our performances well.

With all the above considered, if you bring him back, you anticipate bringing him back for the duration of the contract offered to him, because I don't see much of a market for him to be traded in the future for anything of value. Bigs simply don't fetch good returns. But that's fine, as long as his contract declines and has the potential to get out after 2-3 seasons. Get him some proper help in the backcourt, and it should help him dramatically.

There's not enough consistency over his career to regard him as a safe bet upon return, but he's also accomplished so much this season that it's unfair to pretend he's worthless. He's a player who's very talented, but who has his warts. As long as you know what they are, you can prepare for them. Simple as that.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#198 » by tiderulz » Fri May 3, 2019 11:46 am

Def Swami wrote:
Skin wrote:
ezzzp wrote:
No, you’re joking if you think that resigning Vucevic isn’t a big step in beginning to change how free agents and their agents start to view the franchise. Especially if the Magic continue to build on this past season.

Tools like the MLE and the BAE start to be real options for solid free agents.

On top of that, having a competitive context expands the range of trades made for players the team wants to retain long term - as player resigning becomes actually realistic.

Look, did it open up anyone's eyes when we resigned Harris? Fournier? Signed Biyombo? Gordon? Were those "big steps" towards attracting FAs in the Summer of 2019?

Who says we can't be competitive without Vuc? He's been here the last 7 years and we haven't been competitive. What does that say?

Vucevic becoming arguably a top 15 player in the league and Clifford are the real two reasons were even competitive this past season.

i think calling Vuc a top-15 player is a bit much. Maybe top-30 this year.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#199 » by tiderulz » Fri May 3, 2019 11:50 am

pepe1991 wrote:If we let Vuc and Ross go, i highly doubt team will reach 30 wins

yes. you have said this multiple times. you dont expect any replacement players or growth from anyone else to fill in, even incrementally.

I'll wait to see what Isaac looks like next year, see what we get, if anything, from Fultz before i declare anything.
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Re: The Future is bright 

Post#200 » by pepe1991 » Fri May 3, 2019 11:55 am

tiderulz wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:If we let Vuc and Ross go, i highly doubt team will reach 30 wins

yes. you have said this multiple times. you dont expect any replacement players or growth from anyone else to fill in, even incrementally.

I'll wait to see what Isaac looks like next year, see what we get, if anything, from Fultz before i declare anything.


There is like 90%-10% when it comes to Vučević return . People just cry and plot his departure for whatever reason, knowing that he is comming back regardless.
Gap between what teams actually do and what fans wants them to do is difference between living from basketball and being casual fan that complains about things that he doesn't understand.
Smart teams don't listen to their vocal audience ,because most of them are bunch of idiots. In each and every fanbase of each and every sport team fanbase. Frankly most of fans nowdays just cry ,moan, bit** and complain. Others are bandwagoners .

There is much more in sports than just sport product itself. Marketing, selling tickets, moving merch, filling arena, building culture, expending foreign fanbase ...are just small peaces in huge puzzle. Most things that are easier to achive and improve with product that is watchable than Magic 2012-13 roster or 10 wins Philly roster.
"A straight path never leads anywhere except to the objective."
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