Draft Thread: Knicks got #3 - Combine and Beyond

[br7knicks]

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the way it should be

[F N 11]

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Let the kid go somewhere where he can be a ball mover and great defender. People don’t appreciate him here. I see his impact but all people see is scoring. It will be a huge mistake.

Then all we will hear is knicks defense this Knicks defense that.

Appreciate? He wasn't on the court long enough last year to appreciate. It was a big problem we had to throw Mudiay and Allen out there instead of him. It was like everyone was developing around him while he sat. He had the one good game vs the Warriors and fans were expecting more after that.

I don't want to lose him for nothing, but let's not act like he earned any minutes off of last year's season.

Is anyone against him playing in the summer league again? He should be headed back if he stays on our roster.

He has a ton to go offensively. However when paired with a defensive big man we have seen the numbers. Him and Mitch has ridiculous potential on the defensive end together. I’m going off of his strengths. His numbers with Kp/Mitch ain’t a fluke. He can contribute to winning. If he stops developing right now he’s a solid role player on a winning basketball team.

[F N 11]

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the way it should be

Please be selling KD on carrying these kids.

[SelbyCobra]

Just looking through the results and their odds again. While the Knicks were unquestionably lucky not to fall out of the top-3 on draft night, there has rightfully been a lot of focus on how long the odds were for NOP, MEM, and LAL to end up as fortunate as they did.

NOP had a 6.0% chance of picking 1st
MEM had a 6.3% chance of picking 2nd
LAL had a 2.8% chance of picking 4th

But on the flip side...

ATL had an 8.8% chance of picking 8th. The Hawks found their franchise guy in Young and entered the lottery with a 42% chance at the top 4 to really jumpstart the franchise, and it was 90%+ that they'd be in the top 7...and they ended up 8th. Oof.

WSH had a 3.8% chance of picking 9th. Wiz are maybe the most crippled franchise out there with the devastating Wall injury/contract. A lottery win could shave years off the work to dig out from the mess, and they had roughly the same odds of getting a top 4 pick that the Knicks did of landing top 3...and ended up 9th. Just soul-crushing for them.

[iLLmatic860]

Just looking through the results and their odds again. While the Knicks were unquestionably lucky not to fall out of the top-3 on draft night, there has rightfully been a lot of focus on how long the odds were for NOP, MEM, and LAL to end up as fortunate as they did.

NOP had a 6.0% chance of picking 1st
MEM had a 6.3% chance of picking 2nd
LAL had a 2.8% chance of picking 4th

But on the flip side...

ATL had an 8.8% chance of picking 8th. The Hawks found their franchise guy in Young and entered the lottery with a 42% chance at the top 4 to really jumpstart the franchise, and it was 90%+ that they'd be in the top 7...and they ended up 8th. Oof.

WSH had a 3.8% chance of picking 9th. Wiz are maybe the most crippled franchise out there with the devastating Wall injury/contract. A lottery win could shave years off the work to dig out from the mess, and they had roughly the same odds of getting a top 4 pick that the Knicks did of landing top 3...and ended up 9th. Just soul-crushing for them.

Yeah thats why I dont understand ESPN and other fans bashing us for missing out on Zion and getting 3. It couldve been way worse for sure lol

[thebuzzardman]

So, let's talk a bit about RJ, in terms of his projection and some perceived or real flaws.

I'm not going to go into every perceived flaw - that his shooting could be better or decision making or going right, but one specific area/s.

So, something of a knock on RJ is he's more straight line athleticism who lacks wiggle, which would keep him from being elite and the straight line athleticism would be more easily countered at the NBA level. I'd assume for now I THINK it could be added that if his jumper is inconsistent, teams would also play off him, so that's an extra step for the defender to counter that athleticism, plus the obvious that there are more tall, fast, strong guys in the NBA.

As an aside, while I see that lack of wiggle that Spencer and others have referred to, as well as being shot happy at times, one video pointed out that RJ has a really good, long 2nd stride he uses creatively, with explosion, with a euro step. I think that move alone bodes well he's not busting at the NBA level, along with being 6'7" and really athletic and a decent all around game. I get the arguments over how high his potential, ceiling vs floor etc, but not a bust. That's crazy talk.

Anyway, here's the question to those good amateur scouts on here and people with a better long term memory about player attributes:

"Have any low wiggle, straight line scoring wing ever had a very good NBA career? I guess we can narrow it to guards, as I figure RJ would play the 2 on the Knicks"

"Has any low wiggle player developed it after a few years? By the time a guy reaches the NBA, even if as young as 18/19, is that more good court vision - either you have it by now or you don't"

Just a little discussion around RJ, with the assumption the Knicks draft him and don't trade him away - which I have no idea what happens, and would be happy with the right kind of AD trade and happy without AD

I can’t think of any “low wiggle” players that have succeeded unless they added something to their game like a long range shot or some isolation dribble moves to create space. He will benefit from the increased pace + his reputation for going to rim will get him some whistles.

I really couldn't think of anyone who was kind of straight line without a 3.

Thunder Dan Marjerle (sp?) was kind of straight line. He also wasn't a star and was also a big 3 point shooter, at least for his era.

[newyorker4ever]

Depends on how you look at. Most years RJ would be the grand prize. This kid is exceptionally talented. His game will translate better to the NBA, especially if he has shooters around him spacing the floor which Duke severely lacked with Cam bricking everything.We are doing just fine.

You're missing the point.

Again, I'm not doubting the players. I'm only saying KNICKS fans are not clowns for being disappointed they didn't get the #1 pick -- WHOEVER that player turns out to be.

Its fine to be disappointed but taking it to the level guys like Stephen A Smith have been is ridiculous. The way this lottery turned out, we are lucky to have the 3rd pick.

Everything SAS was doing was all just a schtick. He knew he could get a bunch of attention by doing it so he did it and did it again and then did it again so other shows could keep showing it and laugh about it and it all just brings more attention his way. Before the draft he was on shows talking about how good it would be if the Lakers ended with the top pick and Zion. Ever since Skip Bayless brought him on First Take which allowed SAS to make a name for himself with his little yelling acts he puts on he became a guy that loved going to LA and loved the LA lifestyle. I don't look at him as a real New York Knicks/Sports fan anymore. Not saying he doesn't still like his teams especially the Yankees but i don't look at him like a true New York fan anymore and just a guy that does whatever he can to get his name talked about.

#FAKE

[Besart19]

Kemba / Smith / Allen
Frank / Dotson / Trier / Jenkins
Barrett / Knox / Vince
Durant / Melo / Vonleh
Cousins / Mitch / Pau / Kornet

I want this

Cousins for the MLE is a better assett than Jordan... with that core you have more than enough for another major trade in midseason or two minor ones

[3toheadmelo]

Earlier in the season I couldn’t bring myself to get enamored with Culver as I believe lower ranked guys like KPJr and Langford were the ones with abilities that could translate to the NBA.

Culver’s lack of burst on top of his inconsistent shooting worries me in terms of his potential to be a great player in the league.

Culver reminds me of Frank. I would not trade down for him. I’ll be pretty mad if we did.

How do you feel about RJ still? He is growing on me a little bit. He is still a very flawed player but I am starting to see some star potential in him. His FIBA tape makes him look like a god

Have been spending the last couple of days trying to acclimatize myself to RJ. LOL it is easier to do so than when we drafted Frank over DSJ wherein I went into full delusion mode and convinced myself that Frank gives me Kawhi vibes.

RJ is a great player and I saw how he dominated in FIBA in giving Canada that gold medal in the under-19 world tournament. That guy has that drive and a winner’s mentality.

The challenge with me is that I still approach things as if we are still in rebuild mode. Hard to predict things with uncertainties surrounding KD and Kyrie and I still think they end up elsewhere (I think Mills already knows what’s up).

So for me DSJ is still in the roster and I am not optimistic of his fit with RJ. Both guys are more effective with the ball in their hands given their scoring and playmaking skills and would benefit from having as much shooters around them as possible.

Aside from potentially jersey number complications LOL I think their overlapping strengths and lack of complementary skills for each other could be a problem in terms of maximizing the lineup on the floor.

Needless to say I like DSJ but if RJ is our guy moving forward we may have to find a different PG to pair up with him. If we are sticking with DSJ I won’t mind trading down this draft in exchange for a better position to get the top prospects in the 2020 draft class.

Full delusion mode Yeah it is much easier to talk yourself into RJ for sure. At least with RJ he is a top prospect unlike Frank who was never on that level.

I think I would still stick with DSJ if we get RJ and see how it goes for a year or two but I do see why you are not optimistic about the fit.

But if there’s a possible way to trade our pick and get Wiseman or Edwards next year... see ya RJ

[F N 11]

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KD talking about RJ

[SelbyCobra]

I'd probably take the same kind of offer Atlanta took from Dallas last year:

2019 #3 for 2019 #5 plus 2020 1st Top 5 protected / 2021 1st unprotected

Doubt Cavs would offer that.

like i said all you need is one team to be in love with RJ and they would give up a lot.

I've actually warmed up to RJ quite a bit, but I think I would move him for #5 and the 1-10 rights to the Cavs 2020 pick.

In the 2017 Kyle Korver trade the Cavs traded their 2019 1st rounder to the Hawks, protected top 10. At the time they had LBJ still, so all looked kosher. LBJ obviously left and the 2019 pic's protections kicked in this year, so it rolled over to 2020. The thing is, it's still protected 1-10 in 2020, and if it doesn't convey by then it turns into two 2nd rounders. Bottom line is Cleveland still owns it's 2020 pick, but only if it falls in the 1-10 range...which seems extremely likely at this point.

If the Knicks don't have the separation between RJ and Garland (or anyone else in that group) as anything significant, and the Cavs really do love the former, I'd insist on the 1-10 rights on 2020's pick and make the deal if they agreed. I don't think I'd make any deal that had improbable/no odds of another VERY high 1st rounder conveying. I'm not a huge fan of the protections on that Hawks/Mavs deal, to be honest. A second 1st rounder is cool this year for ATL, but the pick being #10 doesn't really move the needle for me. The Mavs retained all of the major upside in their 2019 lottery selection, and only had to relinquish it if their ticket "lost".

I wouldn't enter a similar deal with the Cavs if they really want Barrett. I'd insist on all the remaining rights to their 2020 pick.

[Deeeez Knicks]

So, let's talk a bit about RJ, in terms of his projection and some perceived or real flaws.

I'm not going to go into every perceived flaw - that his shooting could be better or decision making or going right, but one specific area/s.

So, something of a knock on RJ is he's more straight line athleticism who lacks wiggle, which would keep him from being elite and the straight line athleticism would be more easily countered at the NBA level. I'd assume for now I THINK it could be added that if his jumper is inconsistent, teams would also play off him, so that's an extra step for the defender to counter that athleticism, plus the obvious that there are more tall, fast, strong guys in the NBA.

As an aside, while I see that lack of wiggle that Spencer and others have referred to, as well as being shot happy at times, one video pointed out that RJ has a really good, long 2nd stride he uses creatively, with explosion, with a euro step. I think that move alone bodes well he's not busting at the NBA level, along with being 6'7" and really athletic and a decent all around game. I get the arguments over how high his potential, ceiling vs floor etc, but not a bust. That's crazy talk.

Anyway, here's the question to those good amateur scouts on here and people with a better long term memory about player attributes:

"Have any low wiggle, straight line scoring wing ever had a very good NBA career? I guess we can narrow it to guards, as I figure RJ would play the 2 on the Knicks"

"Has any low wiggle player developed it after a few years? By the time a guy reaches the NBA, even if as young as 18/19, is that more good court vision - either you have it by now or you don't"

Just a little discussion around RJ, with the assumption the Knicks draft him and don't trade him away - which I have no idea what happens, and would be happy with the right kind of AD trade and happy without AD

Kawhi, Jimmy Butler, Pippen, Derozan, McGrady, Westbrook, Lowry?

Not really sure exactly what you are asking for though. Seems like a lot of nba players have improved on that. Think it mostly depends on if he can improve his jumper else defenses will sag off.

Google gave me this old scouting report on Kawhi:

"Quicker defenders can give him problems because he is generally a straight-line player and struggles going side-to-side," the report noted. "At the next level, Leonard can be a 4/3 on offense, but on defense he may be inclined to guarding 3s because of his lack of lateral quickness."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2690521-looking-back-at-the-high-school-scouting-reports-of-todays-biggest-nba-stars#slide11

[F N 11]

Lol just read an article Cavs would trade 5 and 26 for 3. Not nearly enough...

[2010]

The more I deep dive into RJ's video footage, the more I realize it wouldn't be the smart move to bet against him. Dude has the potential to be a triple-double threat on any given night.

[F N 11]

The more I deep dive into RJ's video footage, the more I realize it wouldn't be the smart move to bet against him. Dude has the potential to be a triple-double threat on any given night.

If he was white and did some fancy dribbling we would be comparing him to Luka. Dude is going to be a all around player. He is in good hands with Barrett Sr and Steve Nash. I really want to draft him. Dude is a 6’7 slasher shot creator. It would be a mistake to trade this kid remember I said that.

The things he fuq up on his what most young players fuq up on. Decision making and consistency shooting. He has everything else tho.

Yeah they would go under picks against him but if anything I’ve seen from Barrett he would work to improve.

Let’s not act like teams not going to pack the paint against Zion. All these kids have to improve.

[SelbyCobra]

Lol just read an article Cavs would trade 5 and 26 for 3. Not nearly enough...

If Altman has the balls to ever actually make that offer to anyone but the media...

[SelbyCobra]

The more I deep dive into RJ's video footage, the more I realize it wouldn't be the smart move to bet against him. Dude has the potential to be a triple-double threat on any given night.

There's a lot to like despite the flaws, and shooting can and does improve with the uber talented kids. I'm very much ok with drafting and developing RJ Barrett. It'd be a fun risk to take, even knowing the downside potential (much of which awy has laid out).

[Richard4444]

I think with the way the lottery played out Cam can be there at 8 if he is ranked last among fellow wings like Hunter and Culver and if the top 3 PGs all go in front of him.

I think with the way the lottery played out there is a chance Cam could fall to 8. It depends on how he stacks against his fellow wings like Hunter and Culver and if the 3 top PG’s in the draft go in front of him.

I think based on his ability shining the most in workouts and his potential some team will take him before 8. You are right he's going to have to show out compared to his fellow players.

I forgot that Brandon Clarke at the 6th pick to Phoenix is a possibility as well.

Good Thinking. They really need a PF. They can think its more easy to trade for a PG and rookies PG usually takes more time to develop.

[F N 11]

I think based on his ability shining the most in workouts and his potential some team will take him before 8. You are right he's going to have to show out compared to his fellow players.

I forgot that Brandon Clarke at the 6th pick to Phoenix is a possibility as well.

Good Thinking. They really need a PF. They can think its more easy to trade for a PG and rookies PG usually takes more time to develop.

They need a point guard no ifs ands or buts lol.

[mpharris36]

Lol just read an article Cavs would trade 5 and 26 for 3. Not nearly enough...