Inigo Montoya wrote:He's not going to play PF, is he?
According to Locke - no.
Moderators: FJS, Inigo Montoya
Inigo Montoya wrote:He's not going to play PF, is he?
Daddy 801 wrote:CAE15 wrote:Jazz can play Ingles, Bogdanovic, Royce, Niang, Davis at the 4 depending on matchups and what are they really facing? Who's the big you're so worried about? Nurk and Collins? Tucker and Capela? Draymond and Looney? LMA and Poeltl? Harrell and Gallo? Adams and Grant? Jokic and Millsap? Favors and Zion? Bagley and Dedmon? JJJ and Val? Kat and Dieng? Zing and Powell? Ayton and Saric? Anyone that plays in the post will have Rudy on them and one of the 5 guys from our team can handle the other "big" at least somewhat. And perhaps Brantley shows well. Jazz are very versatileLuigi wrote:
If we don't give Snyder another option at 4, I don't think Ingles is going to be in the weightroom enough to prevent it.
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Couldn’t agree more. Every other team has four guard/wing players on the floor with a big for the past 2-3 years and the forum has complained we aren’t playing the modern way, and now people are worried we’ll get bullied by so called PF’s. Let other teams make the mistake we made and play a big PF. Quin will devise a scheme where we run handoffs, get the advantage, and then exploit the match up. And if the PF can even keep pace we’ll have Ingles, Bojan, or Royce in the corner waiting for a catch and drain a 3. We’re going to be the team forcing other teams to change their PF out because we’re draining 3’s on them.
stitches wrote:Inigo Montoya wrote:He's not going to play PF, is he?
According to Locke - no.
Luigi wrote:Daddy 801 wrote:CAE15 wrote:Jazz can play Ingles, Bogdanovic, Royce, Niang, Davis at the 4 depending on matchups and what are they really facing? Who's the big you're so worried about? Nurk and Collins? Tucker and Capela? Draymond and Looney? LMA and Poeltl? Harrell and Gallo? Adams and Grant? Jokic and Millsap? Favors and Zion? Bagley and Dedmon? JJJ and Val? Kat and Dieng? Zing and Powell? Ayton and Saric? Anyone that plays in the post will have Rudy on them and one of the 5 guys from our team can handle the other "big" at least somewhat. And perhaps Brantley shows well. Jazz are very versatile
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Couldn’t agree more. Every other team has four guard/wing players on the floor with a big for the past 2-3 years and the forum has complained we aren’t playing the modern way, and now people are worried we’ll get bullied by so called PF’s. Let other teams make the mistake we made and play a big PF. Quin will devise a scheme where we run handoffs, get the advantage, and then exploit the match up. And if the PF can even keep pace we’ll have Ingles, Bojan, or Royce in the corner waiting for a catch and drain a 3. We’re going to be the team forcing other teams to change their PF out because we’re draining 3’s on them.
I don't yet buy the versatility claim. O'neale is a 2/3 more than a 3/4. He's not guarding 4s on the regular. Bogdanovic is a 3. He's not guarding anybody, but he'll follow around the opposing small forward most nights, and be a switch problem for us. Ingles is the most natural 3 around, but he'll probably have to cover 4s more than Bogdanovic will. (I know bb ref thinks Ingles plays a lot of 4, but that's because they list him at the 4 when Crowder was playing on the floor with him, clearly a mistake). Yeah, I already went through the list much earlier with babyjax. For reference, Bogdanovic is 70th of 93 small forwards in real defensive plus minus. Niang is 87th. Ingles is 14th. Niang and Bogdanovic have been on elite strong defensive squads with DPOY level anchors, too.
So, how do we like putting Ingles or Bodganovic on these 4s?
James, (Davis) - James is always a problem, but you need some beef to give him different looks
Millsap, (Jokic) - Millsap on the offensive glass will be tough
Aminu, (Nurkic) - This is not so bad, unless we see more Collins at 4
Green, (Looney?) - Green likes to take smaller players to the rack
Aldridge, (Poeltl) - I'm actually really worried about what Popovich could do to us with a defensive liability to exploit
Zion, (Favors) - Zion will have good nights against our college sized guys.
Tucker (Capella) - Tucker is tougher than Joe, but that won't be too bad.
Grant (Adams) - Grant poses the opposite problem, he's explosive.
Horford, (Embiid) - Twin towers. If we see Harris, I think he'll shoot over Bogdanovic and Ingles.
Giannis, (Lopez) - Greek freak is going to average 60 on us
Sabonis, (Turner) - He's beefy.
Almost all the playoff teams are gonna be kinda big. The top of the East is outright scary, thank goodness we're in the west (I think...?). We'll see if we can force teams to go small or not. But those look like 9 of the best 12 teams to me, and 8 pose a problem to our lineup at the 4 spot and open up a hole in our defense. I can't believe this, but I think we're going to miss Jae Crowder.stitches wrote:Inigo Montoya wrote:He's not going to play PF, is he?
According to Locke - no.
Looks to me like Ed Davis is a 18 minute a night guy. And Gobert is a 32 minute a night guy. We're looking at a pair of centers there. So the center position won't take a step backward on defense, which I am happy about. But the 4 spot on defense looks pretty bad to me. Besides positions, offenses are going to put Bogdanovic into a lot of screens hunting for him on the switch wherever we put him.
I've got my fingers crossed that Thabo Sefolosha comes back at the vet minimum and can play more than 40 games. We'll need him at the 4 so that we're not playing everyone out of position. But it kinda stinks when the good scenario is 35 years old and an injury risk.
Daddy 801 wrote:Luigi wrote:I don't yet buy the versatility claim. O'neale is a 2/3 more than a 3/4. He's not guarding 4s on the regular. Bogdanovic is a 3. He's not guarding anybody, but he'll follow around the opposing small forward most nights, and be a switch problem for us. Ingles is the most natural 3 around, but he'll probably have to cover 4s more than Bogdanovic will. (I know bb ref thinks Ingles plays a lot of 4, but that's because they list him at the 4 when Crowder was playing on the floor with him, clearly a mistake). Yeah, I already went through the list much earlier with babyjax. For reference, Bogdanovic is 70th of 93 small forwards in real defensive plus minus. Niang is 87th. Ingles is 14th. Niang and Bogdanovic have been on elite strong defensive squads with DPOY level anchors, too.
So, how do we like putting Ingles or Bodganovic on these 4s?
James, (Davis) - James is always a problem, but you need some beef to give him different looks
Millsap, (Jokic) - Millsap on the offensive glass will be tough
Aminu, (Nurkic) - This is not so bad, unless we see more Collins at 4
Green, (Looney?) - Green likes to take smaller players to the rack
Aldridge, (Poeltl) - I'm actually really worried about what Popovich could do to us with a defensive liability to exploit
Zion, (Favors) - Zion will have good nights against our college sized guys.
Tucker (Capella) - Tucker is tougher than Joe, but that won't be too bad.
Grant (Adams) - Grant poses the opposite problem, he's explosive.
Horford, (Embiid) - Twin towers. If we see Harris, I think he'll shoot over Bogdanovic and Ingles.
Giannis, (Lopez) - Greek freak is going to average 60 on us
Sabonis, (Turner) - He's beefy.
Almost all the playoff teams are gonna be kinda big. The top of the East is outright scary, thank goodness we're in the west (I think...?). We'll see if we can force teams to go small or not. But those look like 9 of the best 12 teams to me, and 8 pose a problem to our lineup at the 4 spot and open up a hole in our defense. I can't believe this, but I think we're going to miss Jae Crowder.stitches wrote:According to Locke - no.
Looks to me like Ed Davis is a 18 minute a night guy. And Gobert is a 32 minute a night guy. We're looking at a pair of centers there. So the center position won't take a step backward on defense, which I am happy about. But the 4 spot on defense looks pretty bad to me. Besides positions, offenses are going to put Bogdanovic into a lot of screens hunting for him on the switch wherever we put him.
I've got my fingers crossed that Thabo Sefolosha comes back at the vet minimum and can play more than 40 games. We'll need him at the 4 so that we're not playing everyone out of position. But it kinda stinks when the good scenario is 35 years old and an injury risk.
We just got wrecked by the Rockets two years in a row who most certainly were not employing a traditional big PF who bullied the Jazz in the paint. They destroyed us by playing people like PJ Tucker as a spacing big. It most certainly was not Terrence Ross or Kenneth Faried who destroyed us. Capela rolling to the rim and their 3 point shooting is what destroyed us. At least we have guys who can do the same now.
Daddy 801 wrote:Jae Crowder is listed at 6’6” 235-240. Joe Ingles is listed at 6’8” 225-230.
Why are we pretending we just lost a bully PF and Joe can’t replicate what Jae did, but better? And we didn’t post Favs up and play like he was Malone. We used him in a PnR. Ingles can PnR just fine. Bojan can run the PnR. Ed Davis can set a pick.
I love Favs and will miss him. And I think I was the biggest homer calling for Jae for years prior to him coming. But we just got a lot better at everything besides maybe rebounding. And Ed Davis is a good rebounder. So we’ll see on that front.
Luigi wrote:Daddy 801 wrote:Luigi wrote:I don't yet buy the versatility claim. O'neale is a 2/3 more than a 3/4. He's not guarding 4s on the regular. Bogdanovic is a 3. He's not guarding anybody, but he'll follow around the opposing small forward most nights, and be a switch problem for us. Ingles is the most natural 3 around, but he'll probably have to cover 4s more than Bogdanovic will. (I know bb ref thinks Ingles plays a lot of 4, but that's because they list him at the 4 when Crowder was playing on the floor with him, clearly a mistake). Yeah, I already went through the list much earlier with babyjax. For reference, Bogdanovic is 70th of 93 small forwards in real defensive plus minus. Niang is 87th. Ingles is 14th. Niang and Bogdanovic have been on elite strong defensive squads with DPOY level anchors, too.
So, how do we like putting Ingles or Bodganovic on these 4s?
James, (Davis) - James is always a problem, but you need some beef to give him different looks
Millsap, (Jokic) - Millsap on the offensive glass will be tough
Aminu, (Nurkic) - This is not so bad, unless we see more Collins at 4
Green, (Looney?) - Green likes to take smaller players to the rack
Aldridge, (Poeltl) - I'm actually really worried about what Popovich could do to us with a defensive liability to exploit
Zion, (Favors) - Zion will have good nights against our college sized guys.
Tucker (Capella) - Tucker is tougher than Joe, but that won't be too bad.
Grant (Adams) - Grant poses the opposite problem, he's explosive.
Horford, (Embiid) - Twin towers. If we see Harris, I think he'll shoot over Bogdanovic and Ingles.
Giannis, (Lopez) - Greek freak is going to average 60 on us
Sabonis, (Turner) - He's beefy.
Almost all the playoff teams are gonna be kinda big. The top of the East is outright scary, thank goodness we're in the west (I think...?). We'll see if we can force teams to go small or not. But those look like 9 of the best 12 teams to me, and 8 pose a problem to our lineup at the 4 spot and open up a hole in our defense. I can't believe this, but I think we're going to miss Jae Crowder.
Looks to me like Ed Davis is a 18 minute a night guy. And Gobert is a 32 minute a night guy. We're looking at a pair of centers there. So the center position won't take a step backward on defense, which I am happy about. But the 4 spot on defense looks pretty bad to me. Besides positions, offenses are going to put Bogdanovic into a lot of screens hunting for him on the switch wherever we put him.
I've got my fingers crossed that Thabo Sefolosha comes back at the vet minimum and can play more than 40 games. We'll need him at the 4 so that we're not playing everyone out of position. But it kinda stinks when the good scenario is 35 years old and an injury risk.
We just got wrecked by the Rockets two years in a row who most certainly were not employing a traditional big PF who bullied the Jazz in the paint. They destroyed us by playing people like PJ Tucker as a spacing big. It most certainly was not Terrence Ross or Kenneth Faried who destroyed us. Capela rolling to the rim and their 3 point shooting is what destroyed us. At least we have guys who can do the same now.
The Rockets were a rare thing, and a particular matchup problem to the Jazz. I think we lost because we were a worse team (everyone was except for the Durant Warriors), not because we didn't match up well (though that was part of it).
But, no, we can't do the same thing the Rockets did. Bogdanovic will look like Harden on defense (maybe worse). But Ingles doesn't have the frame to do what Tucker does.
We're going to have to beat multiple teams in the playoffs to make a deep run. The matchups won't all look like Houston. And I think we'll get tired of watching teams score on Bogdanovic with whoever they want on the wing, and on Ingles if they wanna go big. James, Millsap, Green, Aldridge, Zion, Horford, Giannis, Sabonis, those guys are gonna beat Joe up pretty bad.Daddy 801 wrote:Jae Crowder is listed at 6’6” 235-240. Joe Ingles is listed at 6’8” 225-230.
Why are we pretending we just lost a bully PF and Joe can’t replicate what Jae did, but better? And we didn’t post Favs up and play like he was Malone. We used him in a PnR. Ingles can PnR just fine. Bojan can run the PnR. Ed Davis can set a pick.
I love Favs and will miss him. And I think I was the biggest homer calling for Jae for years prior to him coming. But we just got a lot better at everything besides maybe rebounding. And Ed Davis is a good rebounder. So we’ll see on that front.
Jae is a lot more stout than Joe. And a lot stronger. This is the problem. Tucker, Crowder, Millsap, these guys are bruisers that like contact. Joe isn't. I love him, but he's not that kind of player. But we're going to ask him to be. And besides putting Joe in a position to fail, we're looking at opening up a Carmello sized hole in the defense with Bogdanovic. No more switching defense with him, I'm afraid. Harden, Leonard, James, even Lillard will be switch hunting Bojan all night. We're gonna have to try to beat teams by out shooting them. But I don't trust that in the playoffs.
Daddy 801 wrote:I find your lack of faith in Ingles upsetting.
But for real, what was the other option? Bring it back again? What bruiser PF was out there that can shoot 40%+ from the corner? We got the single best option for a spacing wing/PF that was available. Mirotic left the NBA and Tobias didn’t move from Philly. Who is better that was a realistic target?
KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?
The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
Daddy 801 wrote:I find your lack of faith in Ingles upsetting.
But for real, what was the other option? Bring it back again? What bruiser PF was out there that can shoot 40%+ from the corner? We got the single best option for a spacing wing/PF that was available. Mirotic left the NBA and Tobias didn’t move from Philly. Who is better that was a realistic target?
I’m glad the Jazz are going to go out there and force teams to adjust to us. We’re gonna play a style of small ball (really smart ball) that is going to require teams to have to adjust. Ingles isn’t going to be the only guy we put on PF’s. We switch on defense anyways so it will be defense by the group. Just like it’s been for years. And I’d be willing to bet 1000 bucks the Jazz still play a switching style of defense. You’re crazy if you think Quin is changing the defense based on acquiring Bojan.
Cappy_Smurf wrote:Utah is quietly having one of the best offseasons in the NBA.
Almost makes up for not being able to wait 3 years to see if a #23 draft pick might work out.
Inigo Montoya wrote:Daddy 801 wrote:I find your lack of faith in Ingles upsetting.
But for real, what was the other option? Bring it back again? What bruiser PF was out there that can shoot 40%+ from the corner? We got the single best option for a spacing wing/PF that was available. Mirotic left the NBA and Tobias didn’t move from Philly. Who is better that was a realistic target?
Portis was a better option, imho. He's only 24, Bojan is almot 30. I'd rather have Portis for 4 years than Bojan. Portis is bigger, more athletic, better defender and a much better rebounder. Bojan is the better shooter but Portis can shoot and can play PF more effectively. He's even paid less than Bojan, as we found out when free agency started.
dr0welf wrote:Cappy_Smurf wrote:Utah is quietly having one of the best offseasons in the NBA.
Almost makes up for not being able to wait 3 years to see if a #23 draft pick might work out.
And surprisingly we still have people complaining... hahaha
Luigi wrote:But I really do think we're going to regret the Bogdanovic addition, because of what it means for the defense in the playoffs. But I'll try to take a wait-and-see attitude.
KqWIN wrote:I'm not worried about our man to man defense against big as much as I'm worried about our rebounding. As long as we can secure the boards, we'll be fine. Most of the other guys you could guard with FVV and it wouldn't matter because they are not using their size on offense. I don't think being smaller at the 4 is a big disadvantage because almost nobody plays their offense that way.
The one guy we should actually be worried about bully ball with...we've got the guy who's guarded him more than anyone else in the league. I'm not saying that Bogey is a perfect matchup for Bron, but it's not like he's a traffic cone ready to get tipped over. The difference between Bogey guarding the post and Crowder is very minimal.
Daddy 801 wrote:KqWIN wrote:I'm not worried about our man to man defense against big as much as I'm worried about our rebounding. As long as we can secure the boards, we'll be fine. Most of the other guys you could guard with FVV and it wouldn't matter because they are not using their size on offense. I don't think being smaller at the 4 is a big disadvantage because almost nobody plays their offense that way.
The one guy we should actually be worried about bully ball with...we've got the guy who's guarded him more than anyone else in the league. I'm not saying that Bogey is a perfect matchup for Bron, but it's not like he's a traffic cone ready to get tipped over. The difference between Bogey guarding the post and Crowder is very minimal.
Our man Ed Davis gets like 7-8 rebounds in 17 minutes a night. Seems like the Jazz shared your concern.
dr0welf wrote:Cappy_Smurf wrote:Utah is quietly having one of the best offseasons in the NBA.
Almost makes up for not being able to wait 3 years to see if a #23 draft pick might work out.
And surprisingly we still have people complaining... hahaha