ardee wrote:E-Balla wrote:ardee wrote:
1. Wade was drastically healthier and better in the 2012 Playoffs than in 2013. Sure Bosh missed some games but 2012 Wade still played close to a top 5 level. 2013 he was a literal scrub at times. Both years he had a low point in the second round (2-13 game against Indy in 2012, 3-10 game in 2013 against the Bulls). After that in 2012 he flipped the switch and went 24/6/5 on 54% TS the rest of the Playoffs. In 2013 he only did 18/5/5 on 50% TS after that game. Defense significantly better in 2012 too.
2. If we're talking postseasons then why not just go with any of '09 or '16-'18 LeBron? Easily his best postseason performances. I voted '17 myself, statistically '12 doesn't compare, he still had an effective Wade at least then. '17 Irving actually struggled a good bit in those Playoffs.
I would rank his Playoffs as:
17
18
09/16
13
12
14
15
11
IMO, 12-14 were the years people became comfortable mentioning his play in Jordan comparisons, but 16-18 were the years he forced the door wide open and forced Jordan off the throne.
1. Bosh didn't just miss some games, he was hurt for almost half the postseason. That's a way bigger deal IMO. Plus as hurt as Wade was they added Ray Allen. Allen + Bosh makes up for Wade's injury if you ask me.
2. Well I am personally going with 09 (not only his best postseason but by far his best regular season and I think that's something everyone should agree on as it's a season he won his most games in with his worst supporting cast) and his 12 postseason is the same level as, if not better than, his 16-18 postseasons. There's some extreme amount of recency bias in you mentioning the 16-18 postseasons as if LeBron wasn't as good, if not better, in 2012.
If you rank 17 and 18 as his top 2 I'm just flat out assuming you care zero 0% about the quality of the defenses he was playing, how many of his games were competitive, or the quality of defense he personally played. I think 09, 16, or 12 are easily his 3 best postseasons when you take those things into account.
For one he played elite DPOY caliber defense in the 2009, 2012, and 2016 postseason, meanwhile he didn't play defense in 17 and 18 much at all. His team's relative defensive rating each of those years was
09: -5.6
12: -2.9
16: -2.9
17: -0.4
18: +0.9
So there's actually numbers that go along with my eye test and his defense most likely fell off those years like I assumed. Maybe you rank those years at the top but I'm not one to just look at numbers and take the 2 years he made the Finals with the highest scoring averages. Ranking his postseasons adjusting for consistency, quality of opponent, level of defense he played, and the teammates he had gives me:
09
12/16
18
15
17
14
13
10
11
And I can understand people ranking 17 and 18 so high. What I can't understand is why anyone would rank 2013 over 2014 or 2015 when he was clearly worse on both sides of the ball.
As far as the 2013 postseason goes it's not anywhere near GOAT level, it's probably under each of Kobe's 08-10 postseasons.
1. Have to agree to disagree there. Having another competent perimeter creator opened up so much for Bron in '12, that's why his production was better in '12. In '13 Wade's knee was busted and he couldn't do the cutting/driving he was capable of the previous year, allowing defenses to zero in on LeBron more. I respect the hell out of Bosh and he's a great overall player but the dude averaged 12/7 on 52% TS in the '13 Playoffs, he wasn't opening up too much for Bron and probably suffered from Wade's injury too. LeBron's jumper was dead in the water in '12 (especially later on) and he was more consistent with it in '13. He got better at everything in '13, wouldn't it make sense that an external factor (Wade's injury) caused the production drop in the Playoffs, and then when Wade was able to move better towards the end of the Finals, LeBron's own production skyrocketed in the last 4 games?
2. It's not that the '17 and '18 defenses he faced don't matter, it's more that I don't think it would've mattered what defenses he faced anyway. By this point he had basically broken basketball on a level never seen before.
Here's a post by Dr Spaceman about him:Dr Spaceman wrote:70sFan wrote:
There is nothing wrong with that statement, but I still can't understand how anyone can feel very comfortable saying one player was better than any player EVER. I mean, yeah James did something legendary last postseason but we have so many legendary moments in NBA history. Bill Russell was possibly the most impactful player ever in 1964 season even though he didn't score at all. Kareem won tough series against very good team with guards that struggled to bring the ball to the halfcourt. Wilt basically averaged TD during whole playoffs, dominated the best dynasty in sports history and leading one of the best teams of all-time. Hakeem and Duncan led their teams on both ends of the floor without any great teammates to the championship beating better teams. Shaq doing his things in early 2000s...
James was spectacular last season. He was so good in playoffs, I truly believed that Cavs wouldn't have beaten Celtics and he proved me wrong. I thought that Cavs wouldn't have been competitive in any game in the finals and he (almost by himself) basically won game 1 (I've not seen such a terrible officiating in a long time). Last season should be the point since nobody should even question James legacy among the greatest of the greatest. I really admire what he did, sometimes I may look like James hater (I hope I don’t) because he's not among my favorite players but believe that I really admire what he did. To say that someone is clearly the best I've seen is impossible to me. To say that he's the best ever is even tougher, as we can't see whole NBA history (unfortunately).
I understand your point here and your reservation but to be honest it’s not about dominance for me. Lebron has proved several times over in his career how dominant he is, as have other guys.
No for me what’s unprecedented about LeBron is how amazing he’s gotten late in his career at reading the game and how many tools he’s developed to counter whatever is being thrown at him. There’s just no one who comes close. He has the experience of someone who’s seen it all and yet has still maintained his body to the point where he can attack like a much younger man. His ceiling right now is limitless and I don’t use that term lightly. He a\has essentially solved basketball, and these crushing dominant performances aren’t an accident.
I put it this way earlier: there has been no player in NBA history who has so quickly gone from diagnosing an action to blowing it up on both ends of the floor. The closest I’ve seen is Garnett, who lacked the scoring tools to do what LeBron does in 4th quarters. Lebron has always seen the game at a super advanced level but earlier it held him back because he saw the best way to attack a defense but wasn’t great at those skills yet. But now he’s great at everything, and it’s jsut a **** for the rest of the league trying to slow him down.
I just don’t know how many times we need to go through this where the playoff rolls around and LeBron is so clearly head and shoulders above everyone before we accept he’s the GOAT. Wilt was awesome but he’s not a ball handler. Russell was dominant but his offense is nowhere near Bron’s. Shaq couldn’t handle the ball or defend like Bron either and Kareem wasn’t an elite passer. Jordan was a monstrous scorer but couldn’t playmake or handle the ball like LeBron, and certainly couldn’t defend like him.
It’s over for me. Lebron just owns basketball in a way I didn’t understand and couldn’t really envision until the last two seasons. 2013 or 2009 LeBron I’d say we’re about as good as the best of Shaq, MJ, Wilt but it’s different now.
Remember this: he averaged 34/12/10 on 63% TS against the 2nd ranked defense in the league, the GOAT team GSW in '17. He was more than capable of tearing up elite defenses to historic numbers.
Honestly, I'm going to change my vote. I love and have championed Wilt as the GOAT peak for a long time, but rereading that Spaceman post makes me think that '17 and '18 LeBron is pretty much the best basketball player to ever exist.
Edit:
3. Also, '13 vs '14 and '15... You're saying '13 was worse than both on both ends? Wut? If we're talking Playoffs only he was better defensively in '13 than in '14 without a doubt, and better offensively than in '15. His jumper was dead, finished, non-existent in '15. He shot 38% from 3 in the '13 Playoffs despite dealing with Wade on one leg. I also think the only year he matched or exceeded his '13 defense after that was in '16, definitely better than '15. There's a reason his defense was described as resurgent in '16, it wasn't great in '15.
I will admit '14 offense was better than '13 though and arguably the best of his career till '17.
Why are you so high on '15? To me it measures out as the worst year of his prime, close only to '11.
1. We just won't see eye to eye on this one. Bosh wasn't amazing but he was the clear 3rd best player on the team by a distance and Ray Allen was the 4th best player on that 2013 team. Wade after the Indiana series in 2012 averaged 22/6/5 on 52 TS%. His 20/4/5 on 51 TS% in the 2013 Finals ain't far off that, and his performance against Boston definitely wasn't.
2. Yeah the concept he'd do the same regardless of defense is absurd when I watch the games and clearly see how bad the defense is and how that facilitates him in doing what he has to do. It's even more absurd when you consider the fact that for every player in every sport ever the quality of the defense they played effected their play. You're quite literally telling me LeBron's not just the GOAT, but the GOAT athlete in all of sports by far. The only one not at all affected by defenses. I'm not buying it.
No one can tell me this 38 point, 7 assist night:
Is more impressive than this 32 point, 5 assist night:
Just look at the defense being played and the difficulty of what he's doing in that 2012 clip vs the 2017 one. Put that LeBron in the league now and he's lighting it up even more. His athleticism wasn't at its peak in 2018 at all but that's his career high in dunks because defenses are garbage now. He'd be on Giannis 4 dunks a night status.
And his averages against Golden State just don't matter to me. The games weren't competitive, his defense wasn't very good, and he played great but it's not nearly as impressive as many other series he's had. I mean look at this #2 defense:
And I want to add the Warriors DRTG was a 103.4 in the regular season. The average DRTG Lebron played in 2012 was a 100.3 and not a single team he played gave up as much points per possession as Golden State. It's like bragging on how much LeBron dominated the Bulls in 2010 (32/9/8 on 67 TS% against a similar quality defense in a similarly uncompetitive series) or bragging on how much MJ roasted the 89 Cavs (40/6/8 on 60 TS% vs a 102.9 DRTG). There's just a difference when you're doing it against a good defense vs a great defense like the 2012 Celtics.
3. I was saying LeBron in the 2013 playoffs was worse on both ends. His defense was terrible in 14 though so thinking back on it you're right there.
And 15 is bad if you look at numbers but he was consistently aggressive. The Celtics series I don't really care about because they were a cupcake team and a W is a W.
vs Chicago he was stuck being guarded by Jimmy who is lock down and held LeBron to 39% shooting. His jumper wouldn't fall either and LeBron legit had a mediocre series offensively.
vs Atlanta this would've been another series I didn't care about but then Kyrie got hurt leaving LeBron alone having to play back to back 60+ won teams with TT, Delly, Shump, and Mozgov in the starting 5 next to him. TT might've been the only above average player in the rotation. The next 8 games to end the playoffs LeBron averaged 34/13/9 on 48 TS% with a 106 ORTG (8.8 TOV%) and his inefficiency is mainly due to Iguodala. He shot 33% against Iggy and 24% on contested shots by Iggy (41% on shots contested by everyone else). That's what great defense does when you have no help but LeBron still did great to drag Cleveland to 2 wins with damn near no one else on the team that was decent. That's just way more impressive than more efficient performances with great teammates against cupcake defenses in uncompetitive series.
