2019 Bucks Off Season Thread - Trades, Transactions - Korver Signs

[crkone]

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Chad Forcier has been around forever, surprised he’s only 46. Long time Spurs guy, bounced around a bit lately. Wonder if this means we’re relocating someone currently on the staff to the Herd.

He's considered the Kawhi whisper while he was in San Antonio, based on sources.

[Badgerlander]

I thought at the beginning of last season that we had the worst roster of guards among playoff probable teams. Adding a 3rd starting caliber guard in Hill was huge at the deadline. I think Wes can still defend at the nba level but I don’t look at him as starting caliber and Bledsoe and Hill are injury risks. We are putting a lot of eggs in the DDV basket atm

We definitely are putting a lot on DDV and Brown to step up, but sometimes guys have to step up. Most guys don't have a full year of playing great before they get an opportunity -- they just get one because the coaches think they're ready. It's not a foregone conclusion that's the case with our guys as there's still plenty of offseason to go, but I personally would rather give DDV a shot than anybody who's left out there who'd seem likely to sign with us, unless there's a trade out there I'm not seeing.

I bet we could get the Griz to give us cash to take PP fave Grayson off their hands after his awful showing in SL lol KIDDING DO NOT WANT

[RRyder823]

You're oblivious to exeggaration aren't you. Also you don't realize or willfully ignore what goes into Giannis shooting wide open 3's early in the shot clock. No turnovers. Not on Giannis nor on his teammates trying to create for him. No offensive fouls. No transition opportunities for the opposing team. No strain on Giannis body. This much more than ppp.

Turnovers and offensive fouls are factored into points per possession. I didnt ignore nothing. 1 ppp is a step back for Giannis (although you are ignoring that it results no added fatigue or added fouls for the opposition)

ONCE AGAIN. We've seen Giannis shoot 3s at a 30+ percent clip. IT DID NOTHING.

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It's included in TS%. It's obviously not included in shooting percentages.

And sure it changed stuff. For example in the Celtics series Morris (?) bit on a pump fake and Giannis got a free drive to the rim. In the game versus the 76ers he got ignored at first and bombed away. Ultimately the 76ers adjusted. It also allows to increase his usage without putting further strain on his body. It also changed how teams defended him at the end of the shot clock situations cause suddenly your bottleneck is slightly less efficient shot than you'd normally get.

Anyway you either think Giannis shooting from 3 is a bad shot so he shouldn't take any 3's or it's a good shot and then he should always take them. There is no in between. And if he gets to even 30% when letting it fly it's a good shot. No question about it.

TOs are included in the ppp stat. 1 ppp is worse then what Giannis currently generates. It doesnt factor in offensive rebounds or assists so ultimately 1 ppp is actually alot worse per possession for Giannis on average. Allowing him to do that all game long quite litterally limits the points he generates while not actually having to do anything on defense. Outside of allowing Giannis to be fresher on defense (which is negated by them not expending energy on defense themselves) theres not really a legitimate reason to guard him if hes only shooting 33% on wide open 3s

Also there is always an in between. If he wants to conserve energy a few possessions a game by all means Giannis let it fly. Not to mention shooting 3-4 3s a game could eventually lead to him shooting them at a high enough percentage to actually get guys to meet him at the 3pt line outside of a few rare bone headed examples. That percentage is significantly higher then 30% though.

You keep on saying "if he can get to 30%" but It's not "if" he gets to 30%. Hes already been shooting over that from 3.




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[WimpyDeer]

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Chad Forcier has been around forever, surprised he’s only 46. Long time Spurs guy, bounced around a bit lately. Wonder if this means we’re relocating someone currently on the staff to the Herd.

I can confirm this now because I just read a Matt Velazquez tweet that confirmed it.

[JimmyTheKid]

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Chad Forcier has been around forever, surprised he’s only 46. Long time Spurs guy, bounced around a bit lately. Wonder if this means we’re relocating someone currently on the staff to the Herd.

I can confirm this now because I just read a Matt Velazquez tweet that confirmed it.

I believe Velasquez has just started doing that very recently and its annoying. What is the point?

[LuessiT]

TOs are included in the ppp stat. 1 ppp is worse then what Giannis currently generates. It doesnt factor in offensive rebounds or assists so ultimately 1 ppp is actually alot worse per possession for Giannis on average. Allowing him to do that all game long quite litterally limits the points he generates while not actually having to do anything on defense. Outside of allowing Giannis to be fresher on defense (which is negated by them not expending energy on defense themselves) theres not really a legitimate reason to guard him if hes only shooting 33% on wide open 3s

Also there is always an in between. If he wants to conserve energy a few possessions a game by all means Giannis let it fly. Not to mention shooting 3-4 3s a game could eventually lead to him shooting them at a high enough percentage to actually get guys to meet him at the 3pt line outside of a few rare bone headed examples. That percentage is significantly higher then 30% though.

You keep on saying "if he can get to 30%" but It's not "if" he gets to 30%. Hes already been shooting over that from 3.

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Giannis has been shooting 25.6% from 3 in the past season on 3 attempts per game. There is a huge difference between 25.6% on 3 attempts and 30% on 8 attempts. Just cause you're focussing on a selective sample size doesn't make it true. He's not currently shooting over 30% from 3. Thus teams aren't defending him on the 3 point line.
And no, TOs and are not included in FG%. I have no idea what you're stating cause you're making it unclear - thus I can't say for sure that you're wrong or right. FG% purely reflects shot attempts and how often they go in. TS% is a fracture of points and FGA + FTA, so again no TO. PPP is points divided by possessions, while possessions is defined by FGA + FTA + TOV, yet it doesn't reflect when the TOV occured, penalizing ball handlers. That's why it's a flawed stat imo and TS% is better used (if any). For the record Giannis had a PPP of 1.1 last season and a TS% of 64%. What neither stat is reflecting either is when Giannis goes inside, sees a wall, picks up his dribble and is forced to pass out leading to a bad shot or possibly even a turnover. Nor is reflected what happens if Giannis goes inside, sees a wall and passes to the wide open teammate. Also it doesn't isolate his driving attempts and instead e.g. includes his putback attempts too, which obviously will be very successful. I'm not suggesting that he should take the ball outside and shoot a 3 when he gets an offensive board mind you. If you truely isolate situations where Giannis takes a shot attempt inside when the defense is set and sagging off him, his PPP (the stat you favour) will be much less than 1. So no, a 3 at a reasonable clip won't be less beneficial to team success than taking it inside all the time.

What I'm saying is that you can't look at a single stat and make a deduction from it. I'm not saying that Giannis should pass up going to the rim when he has a lane. I'm saying when the defense is sagging and already forming a wall, possibly baiting Giannis to take it inside, he should let it fly. And there is no team in the NBA that will consistently give him a slightly less than currently deemed efficient shot with zero work put into. That is not how defences work.

[LuessiT]

I thought at the beginning of last season that we had the worst roster of guards among playoff probable teams. Adding a 3rd starting caliber guard in Hill was huge at the deadline. I think Wes can still defend at the nba level but I don’t look at him as starting caliber and Bledsoe and Hill are injury risks. We are putting a lot of eggs in the DDV basket atm

We definitely are putting a lot on DDV and Brown to step up, but sometimes guys have to step up. Most guys don't have a full year of playing great before they get an opportunity -- they just get one because the coaches think they're ready. It's not a foregone conclusion that's the case with our guys as there's still plenty of offseason to go, but I personally would rather give DDV a shot than anybody who's left out there who'd seem likely to sign with us, unless there's a trade out there I'm not seeing.

I think Donte has shown enough to warrant faith in him being capable of stepping up. His question marks are mostly injury related. On the other hand Brown has never been a good NBA player so my faith is very, very limited. Imo he's just not very good and I don't get the board love. He's got no ball skills. All he does is D up a bit and shoot 3's on a reasonable clip. Can't make plays for himself or others.

[raferfenix]

Lowe made an interesting point about Bledsoe. Said that he wonders if the Bucks still would have signed him to an extension if they waited until the offseason and witnessed yet another Bledsoe playoff dud. Seems like he thought they wouldn't have.

EDIT: 75 minutes in

Bledsoe over Brogdon is a choice our franchise made that deserves detailed analysis as we move forward.

Don't forget that we originally obtained Bledsoe because Brogdon at the point wasn't working out. Who would our primary ball-handler be right now if we let Bledsoe walk and re-signed Brogdon?

(This isn't aimed at you personally)

George Hill would be our primary ball-handler right now if we had resigned Brogdon and let Bledsoe walk.

[raferfenix]

While Bledsoe's playoff failures are a major concern right now and shouldn't be understated.

I feel like two things are being completely dismissed this in Brogdon v Bledsoe debate

1. Bledsoe was First Team All NBA Defense at PG.

2. Brogdon at point guard was a failure that triggered the Bledsoe trade.


I feel like Bledsoe was kind of written out of the offensive game plan too much this year and part of me liked him deferring to get others involved, but, I feel he wasn't able to turn that switch back on when we needed it most in the playoffs.

I'm very curious to see how his offensive role/usage changes this year with no Brogdon.

It's a fair point that both Bledsoe and Middleton could benefit from Brogdon not being around to take as many shots and handle to ball as much.

Khash in particular could be expected to score more now that he's making max money.

[MAC1987]

I thought at the beginning of last season that we had the worst roster of guards among playoff probable teams. Adding a 3rd starting caliber guard in Hill was huge at the deadline. I think Wes can still defend at the nba level but I don’t look at him as starting caliber and Bledsoe and Hill are injury risks. We are putting a lot of eggs in the DDV basket atm

We definitely are putting a lot on DDV and Brown to step up, but sometimes guys have to step up. Most guys don't have a full year of playing great before they get an opportunity -- they just get one because the coaches think they're ready. It's not a foregone conclusion that's the case with our guys as there's still plenty of offseason to go, but I personally would rather give DDV a shot than anybody who's left out there who'd seem likely to sign with us, unless there's a trade out there I'm not seeing.

From a organization standpoint it's worth a shot to give them a chance. If they fail, we have some draft picks and other assets to make salaries match around trade deadline.
The best part of this is we are guaranteed playoffs even if they do fail. So a relatively low risk choice from an organization standpoint.

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[raferfenix]

Completely agree, the timing of everything gives off the illusion that we picked Middleton over Brogdon but the moment Bledsoe signed that extension is when Malcolm decided he was out imo

Brogdon talking so much about playing PG in Indiana makes me think this was the case as well.

We could have resigned him either way of course.

But Budenholzer might have preferred Hill over Brogdon at PG even if Bledsoe weren't around.

[Badgerlander]

I thought at the beginning of last season that we had the worst roster of guards among playoff probable teams. Adding a 3rd starting caliber guard in Hill was huge at the deadline. I think Wes can still defend at the nba level but I don’t look at him as starting caliber and Bledsoe and Hill are injury risks. We are putting a lot of eggs in the DDV basket atm

We definitely are putting a lot on DDV and Brown to step up, but sometimes guys have to step up. Most guys don't have a full year of playing great before they get an opportunity -- they just get one because the coaches think they're ready. It's not a foregone conclusion that's the case with our guys as there's still plenty of offseason to go, but I personally would rather give DDV a shot than anybody who's left out there who'd seem likely to sign with us, unless there's a trade out there I'm not seeing.

I bet we could get the Griz to give us cash to take PP fave Grayson off their hands after his awful showing in SL lol KIDDING DO NOT WANT

On the serious side Frank Nt and Kris Dunn appears to be available at below market value. Neither is perfect but they wouldn’t be available if they were. Neither would be an immediate threat to DDV either

[M-C-G]

Lowe made an interesting point about Bledsoe. Said that he wonders if the Bucks still would have signed him to an extension if they waited until the offseason and witnessed yet another Bledsoe playoff dud. Seems like he thought they wouldn't have.

EDIT: 75 minutes in

Bledsoe over Brogdon is a choice our franchise made that deserves detailed analysis as we move forward.

Don't forget that we originally obtained Bledsoe because Brogdon at the point wasn't working out. Who would our primary ball-handler be right now if we let Bledsoe walk and re-signed Brogdon?

(This isn't aimed at you personally)

I'd also keep in mind, the Bledsoe extension is only a three year deal. I feel pretty confident the medical team was worried about Brogdon on a four year 21M+ deal. Would anyone be shocked if Brogdon misses half the season with a stress fracture in his foot? Bledsoe has some concerns too, but he is cheaper and on a shorter deal, plus gives us something Brogdon absolutely can not, high performing PG defensively.

[midranger]

Obviously 30% > 25%, but either one is a terrible NBA possession and the least efficient shot Giannis is likely to take (outside of a long two which he should never do), so I doubt that improvement would change anything about how teams choose to defend him. It would just yield one more make every 20 attempts or about 3 points every 3-4 games which is good, but not exactly a game changer.

[Chuck Diesel]

Oh I forgot about Kendrick Nunn, who has some weird contract situation with the Heat. If he becomes available I’d definitely hope the Bucks take a long look.

[vegaspacker]

I'm with you guys... if our 24 year old league MVP can become a better shooter...

Just letting that sink in, mind you I just spent 3 hours in a dental chair.

Enjoy the moments guys, we are in a special star alignment time. Maybe Swan can check the charts.

[TroyD92]

Think you have to take into account who was coaching before declaring Brogdon a “failure at point guard” three weeks into the 17-18 season.

That’s fair but the team was significantly better with Bledsoe immediately after the trade. Like literally the first game.

[Matches Malone]

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Chad Forcier has been around forever, surprised he’s only 46. Long time Spurs guy, bounced around a bit lately. Wonder if this means we’re relocating someone currently on the staff to the Herd.

Wouldn't he just be replacing Taylor Jenkins or did that spot already get filled?

[Chuck Diesel]

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Chad Forcier has been around forever, surprised he’s only 46. Long time Spurs guy, bounced around a bit lately. Wonder if this means we’re relocating someone currently on the staff to the Herd.

Wouldn't he just be replacing Taylor Jenkins or did that spot already get filled?

Yep, totally forgot about Jenkins departure for a second. Still wonder if they’ll just send an in house assistant up to Oshkosh the way Bud did with Josh Longstaff (to Erie) a couple years ago. One of the younger dudes is probably better suited.

[Brewhoopfan]

While Bledsoe's playoff failures are a major concern right now and shouldn't be understated.

I feel like two things are being completely dismissed this in Brogdon v Bledsoe debate

1. Bledsoe was First Team All NBA Defense at PG.

2. Brogdon at point guard was a failure that triggered the Bledsoe trade.


I feel like Bledsoe was kind of written out of the offensive game plan too much this year and part of me liked him deferring to get others involved, but, I feel he wasn't able to turn that switch back on when we needed it most in the playoffs.

I'm very curious to see how his offensive role/usage changes this year with no Brogdon.

It's a fair point that both Bledsoe and Middleton could benefit from Brogdon not being around to take as many shots and handle to ball as much.

Khash in particular could be expected to score more now that he's making max money.

What triggered the Bledsoe trade was an opportunity to get better and Brogdon's flexibility allowed him to move off the ball to insert Bledsoe. Although to be fair, the whole damn thing was destined to fail with Kidd at the helm.

There's no way, zip, zilch, zero, that Bledsoe/Middleton are going to replace Brogdon's production at the same efficiency. I prefer Bledsoe distribute all season long. His game isn't built for playoff basketball, and I'd rather not have the team have to make usage adjustments at playoff time due to his inefficiency.