Stroman to Mets for Kay, Woods Richardson

[fbalmeida]

PSA: If you are on the same side of the argument as Steve Simmons, maybe you should reconsider.

Very useful rule of thumb. But he's right about the Donaldson trade of course. To be polite about it, trading isn't exactly Shatkins strength. For instance, from Atkins' interview his explanation as to why they didn't wait for the deadline to deal Stroman, I can't help but get a clear view that they were hoodwinked.

EDIT to add context: Essentially, Atkins took radio silence from other potential suitors, three days away from the deadline as a definitive statement of zero interest. This impelled him to declare confidently that the Mets were their only market for Stroman. Not my opinion, that was his exact description of events.

That sounds bonkers and reckless to me.

My take: something was clearly amiss between Shatkins and Stroman's agent and they couldn't get rid of him any sooner. Atkins hinted as much in a previous interview.

[I_Like_Dirt]

They gave up a middling prospect and a scrub. That's hardly "outbidding" anyone.

And the Jays gave up a guy who is hurt all the time and was about to be paid $40 million per season in 2021. Arguments are sort of pointless when we make absolutely ridiculous positions up out of thin air for emotional reasons. To be honest, I'm really, really surprised at how emotionally attached people in Toronto were to AA. He did some good things but he was also a bit of a grafter and people bought his grift, giving him all the credit for what he did right and blaming the costs for what he did on the guy who had to clean up when he left. It's very much like politics in that sense. It's even funnier because after what the Leafs just went through, you'd think Jays fans would be willing to be a bit patient, too, but because AA managed to succeed at just the right time, the fans basically decided they were never going to lose again and that the 2000s blue Jays really weren't so bad after all.

[fbalmeida]

They gave up a middling prospect and a scrub. That's hardly "outbidding" anyone.

And the Jays gave up a guy who is hurt all the time and was about to be paid $40 million per season in 2021. Arguments are sort of pointless when we make absolutely ridiculous positions up out of thin air for emotional reasons. To be honest, I'm really, really surprised at how emotionally attached people in Toronto were to AA. He did some good things but he was also a bit of a grafter and people bought his grift, giving him all the credit for what he did right and blaming the costs for what he did on the guy who had to clean up when he left. It's very much like politics in that sense. It's even funnier because after what the Leafs just went through, you'd think Jays fans would be willing to be a bit patient, too, but because AA managed to succeed at just the right time, the fans basically decided they were never going to lose again and that the 2000s blue Jays really weren't so bad after all.

I get the point, but I understand and am on board with the skepticism about Shatkins' ability to delivery this baby. Transactions under Shanahan have been largely sound. The Barrie + Kerfoot deal for instance, is a remarkable trade. Further back, the Kessell deal brought us a considerable haul, they've been diligent in free agency, and actually gave away two draft picks to land Freddie Anderson.

It's not the method that is in question. It's the competence.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I get the point, but I understand and am on board with the skepticism about Shatkins' ability to delivery this baby. Transactions under Shanahan have been largely sound. The Barrie + Kerfoot deal for instance, is a remarkable trade. Further back, the Kessell deal brought us a considerable haul, they've been diligent in free agency, and actually gave away two draft picks to land Freddie Anderson.

It's not the method that is in question. It's the competence.

Fair enough, but the catch is that we have 0 evidence of incompetence here beyond hearsay and conjecture. Baseball is a bit of a different game, too, where you have to take lots and lots of attempts to find a select few players. We won't know which prospects will or won't pan out until they do or don't. Some moves will work out and some won't because it's basically impossible to get them all perfect.

As an example, Shapiro and Atkins have been absolutely lambasted for letting EE go and signing Morales. There are a couple catches to that, though. For one, letting EE go got a comp pick that because Nate Pearson, the team's best pitching prospect. And Morales and Gurriel share an agent and it was widely whispered that they were a package deal at the time and that Morales was simply a part of the price for getting Gurriel. With that in mind, Shapiro and Atkins found a way to add Pearson and Gurriel without making any trades and are being absolutely vilified for it when it was one of the most astute series of moves I've seen in a while. It makes no sense beyond the emotional attachment to AA who built a sort of cult of personality around himself.

[polo007]

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[fbalmeida]

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Bingo. Precisely my assessment. Shatkins have just had it handed to them by the Mets. The Stroman precipitation has now cemented their place among the laughingstock front-offices of the MLB.

[LBJSeizedMyID]

I dont think anyone expected an Archer like return, which was even looked at as an overpay at the time by the Pirates. Looks even worse now. Not realistic to expect an Archer like return, and I think most people knew that.

But I think its very fair to have expected more than what the Jays got.

This is a fair assessment. I would've liked to see them pluck away from the Astros or Dodgers, but maybe we have to come to the realization that Stroman, while a really good pitcher, is considered a tier below the guys that throw harder and tend to strike more guys out.

[T-d0t]

Tunnel vision since Shatkins are high on SWR

[Wo1verine]

I don't know much about these players but it seems that the majority don't think the Jays got enough which is disappointing ....

[Wo1verine]

So what's the plan here? We have fantastic prospects in Vladdy, Bo and Cavan and they are going to be uber cheap for the next couple years do we plan on sucking for those years while not taking advantage of the cheapness? I sure hope not.

[Skin Blues]

So what's the plan here? We have fantastic prospects in Vladdy, Bo and Cavan and they are going to be uber cheap for the next couple years do we plan on sucking for those years while not taking advantage of the cheapness? I sure hope not.

Next year the bats will be improved but the pitching is still lagging. Lots of guys on the brink of promotion though, and should be ready to give a push in 2021.

[WuTang_CMB]

So what's the plan here? We have fantastic prospects in Vladdy, Bo and Cavan and they are going to be uber cheap for the next couple years do we plan on sucking for those years while not taking advantage of the cheapness? I sure hope not.

yeah... basically.

which is why we need pitching for that time. Dealing Stroman boggles my mind. I could undersatand if he was 32 ... but that guy is 27

[Raps in 4]

I get the point, but I understand and am on board with the skepticism about Shatkins' ability to delivery this baby. Transactions under Shanahan have been largely sound. The Barrie + Kerfoot deal for instance, is a remarkable trade. Further back, the Kessell deal brought us a considerable haul, they've been diligent in free agency, and actually gave away two draft picks to land Freddie Anderson.

It's not the method that is in question. It's the competence.

Fair enough, but the catch is that we have 0 evidence of incompetence here beyond hearsay and conjecture. Baseball is a bit of a different game, too, where you have to take lots and lots of attempts to find a select few players. We won't know which prospects will or won't pan out until they do or don't. Some moves will work out and some won't because it's basically impossible to get them all perfect.

As an example, Shapiro and Atkins have been absolutely lambasted for letting EE go and signing Morales. There are a couple catches to that, though. For one, letting EE go got a comp pick that because Nate Pearson, the team's best pitching prospect. And Morales and Gurriel share an agent and it was widely whispered that they were a package deal at the time and that Morales was simply a part of the price for getting Gurriel. With that in mind, Shapiro and Atkins found a way to add Pearson and Gurriel without making any trades and are being absolutely vilified for it when it was one of the most astute series of moves I've seen in a while. It makes no sense beyond the emotional attachment to AA who built a sort of cult of personality around himself.

Building the best team in baseball, the first Blue Jays playoff team in 22 years, and then being fired by your notriously cheap owner so they can hire a "company man" president will turn you into a cult-like figure.

[Raps in 4]

So what's the plan here? We have fantastic prospects in Vladdy, Bo and Cavan and they are going to be uber cheap for the next couple years do we plan on sucking for those years while not taking advantage of the cheapness? I sure hope not.

yeah... basically.

which is why we need pitching for that time. Dealing Stroman boggles my mind. I could undersatand if he was 32 ... but that guy is 27

Dealing Stroman was the right move. His timeframe doesn't align with the rest of the team. What's being called into question is the return in the trade

[Skin Blues]

So what's the plan here? We have fantastic prospects in Vladdy, Bo and Cavan and they are going to be uber cheap for the next couple years do we plan on sucking for those years while not taking advantage of the cheapness? I sure hope not.

yeah... basically.

which is why we need pitching for that time. Dealing Stroman boggles my mind. I could undersatand if he was 32 ... but that guy is 27

If we want him in 2021, which is the next year we have a chance at being competitive, we can sign him as a free agent. No sense in committing to him now and losing the value that can be had by trading him when we don't have a hope of competing for the next year and a half.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Building the best team in baseball, the first Blue Jays playoff team in 22 years, and then being fired by your notriously cheap owner so they can hire a "company man" president will turn you into a cult-like figure.

That's not exactly what happened, though. Best team in baseball? They won 93 games once and 89 games the next season and they weren't the best team in the playoffs in either season. There might have been a brief period of time where that was true but it was incredibly brief were that the case.

Had AA stuck around, he'd have been stuck with the mess he created, too. There wasn't some easy way to flip things around and keep winning with the oldest team in baseball. There wasn't some magic potion that was going to solve the problems the team was facing. AA absolutely gutted the farm system to build that team, too, and for some reason AA is operating differently in Atlanta and was unwilling to throw a bunch of prospects to the Jays for their aging veterans he apparently believes in so much despite inheriting a competitive team over there.

[Raps in 4]

Building the best team in baseball, the first Blue Jays playoff team in 22 years, and then being fired by your notriously cheap owner so they can hire a "company man" president will turn you into a cult-like figure.

That's not exactly what happened, though. Best team in baseball? They won 93 games once and 89 games the next season and they weren't the best team in the playoffs in either season. There might have been a brief period of time where that was true but it was incredibly brief were that the case.

Had AA stuck around, he'd have been stuck with the mess he created, too. There wasn't some easy way to flip things around and keep winning with the oldest team in baseball. There wasn't some magic potion that was going to solve the problems the team was facing. AA absolutely gutted the farm system to build that team, too, and for some reason AA is operating differently in Atlanta and was unwilling to throw a bunch of prospects to the Jays for their aging veterans he apparently believes in so much despite inheriting a competitive team over there.

They were a +221 team in 2015. They weren't just the best team in the league that season. They were the best MLB team in decades.

Sure AA would have been stuck with the mess he created, but he showed over his tenure that he was great at rebuilding the farm. And is it really a mess if it resulted in a historically good season? That's like saying Masai has left himself with a mess after trading for Kawhi.

Some risks are worth taking. Sure, the Jays got unlucky in 2015 and didn't win the title, but that's baseball. Was the gamble worth taking? Absolutely.

Speaking of Masai, AA had a lot in common with him, which explains his continued popularity among the fan base. He was as elite a GM as you can get, and we got rid of him.

[Schad]

AA also wasn't fired, he quit. He made the moves he did because he would have been fired, because -- and this is important to remember -- every damned person building a statue for him now was braying for his head up to early July of 2015, because he'd made a bunch of win-now moves that resulted in us missing the playoffs comfortably in 2013 and 2014, and we were a .500 team with the deadline looming.

I'm not at all saying he was a bad GM. But his tenure was incredibly uneven; he made some spectacular rebuilding moves up front, through trades and through his manipulation of the comp pick system. He then pissed a lot of that away. He then rebuilt our prospect base further, and then used that to pull off a series of massive trades that got us to the playoffs, but with the obvious downside that we were going to age out of competitiveness within a couple years.

AA did a fair lot of good, in the aggregate. He also created a situation where a rebuild in 2017 or 2018 was absolutely inevitable. Totally unavoidable. We had zero upper minors talent of any stature, an ancient team (and again, do a Where Are They Now? on the 2015 team to see exactly how impossible it would be to build from that core), and a payroll bomb set to detonate.

[Raps in 4]

AA also wasn't fired, he quit. He made the moves he did because he would have been fired, because -- and this is important to remember -- every damned person building a statue for him now was braying for his head up to early July of 2015, because he'd made a bunch of win-now moves that resulted in us missing the playoffs comfortably in 2013 and 2014, and we were a .500 team with the deadline looming.

I'm not at all saying he was a bad GM. But his tenure was incredibly uneven; he made some spectacular rebuilding moves up front, through trades and through his manipulation of the comp pick system. He then pissed a lot of that away. He then rebuilt our prospect base further, and then used that to pull off a series of massive trades that got us to the playoffs, but with the obvious downside that we were going to age out of competitiveness within a couple years.

AA did a fair lot of good, in the aggregate. He also created a situation where a rebuild in 2017 or 2018 was absolutely inevitable. Totally unavoidable. We had zero upper minors talent of any stature, an ancient team (and again, do a Where Are They Now? on the 2015 team to see exactly how impossible it would be to build from that core), and a payroll bomb set to detonate.

I don't think anyone is denying that a rebuild was inevitable. Some people (myself included) just feel AA would have been a better GM to guide us through that process than Shatkins. The Jays after 2015 (or rather 2016 since they had another year in them) were effectively in the same position as the Raptors right now. You don't get rid of your GM after that. You give him a chance to get back into contention. If he botches the next few years of the rebuild (holding onto assets too long, blowing trades, etc.), then you replace him.

And yeah, he left, but that was after he was demoted. Rogers expected him to cede control to Shapiro, after having years of free rein. It was a case of constructive dismissal.

[Schad]

[

Speaking of Masai, AA had a lot in common with him, which explains his continued popularity among the fan base.

You spent years calling for Masai to be fired, though:

viewtopic.php?p=44239413#p44239413

Masai is an idiot for letting Casey dictate the offseason moves. I can't wait until they both get fired.

viewtopic.php?p=43661071#p43661071

Meh. Masai just pretending to do something since he cant fire Casey

What a joke

This clown should fire himself next.

viewtopic.php?p=43640744#p43640744

]

sounds like a bunch of BS to me.. sounds like another bargnani, jose & BC situation where it felt like they were going to be destroying this team forever.. now its Casey.. this team can't ever get anything right

Because we continue to hire idiot GMs.

The Masai hire is a perfect example of our ineptitude in that regard. We fired BC for being terrible and then hired his former prodigy as our new GM.