MVP Discussion [19/20] [part II] - voting opened

[scrabbarista]

James Harden

31.9 - 6.5 - 7.9 4.5 3PM 9-2 record

As always, when in doubt, the answer is "not James Harden." Flip Harden's and James' February's, and James still would've won.

As the guy below me posted, Harden also beasted James in TS% and beat him in net rating, too. Sheesh.

Harden was not even the best player of his team in february.

Harden scored more (totals), rebounded more, assisted more, stole more, blocked more, won more, had better impact numbers (+/-), better shooting numbers (TS%), and better turnover numbers (per game) than Westbrook in February.

He contributed more than Westbrook in literally everything except cool dunks and media content.

[Homer38]

James Harden

31.9 - 6.5 - 7.9 4.5 3PM 9-2 record

As always, when in doubt, the answer is "not James Harden." Flip Harden's and James' February's, and James still would've won.

As the guy below me posted, Harden also beasted James in TS% and beat him in net rating, too. Sheesh.

Harden was not even the best player of his team in february.

Harden scored more (totals), rebounded more, assisted more, stole more, blocked more, won more, had better impact numbers (+/-), better shooting numbers (TS%), and better turnover numbers (per game) than Westbrook in February.

He contributed more than Westbrook in literally everything except cool dunks and media content.

Maybe you are right that Harden was better,but this is too close…


Harden: 31.9/6.5/7.9 in 35.6 MPG, 64.5 TS%, +9.7 netrtg, 18.1 PIE, -2,0%(DIFF%) and a 9-2 record
Westbrook: 33.4/7.3/6 in 36.8 MPG, 59.4 TS%, +9.3 netrtg, 17.6 PIE, -2,0%(DIFF%) and a 7-1 record

[scrabbarista]

Harden was not even the best player of his team in february.

Harden scored more (totals), rebounded more, assisted more, stole more, blocked more, won more, had better impact numbers (+/-), better shooting numbers (TS%), and better turnover numbers (per game) than Westbrook in February.

He contributed more than Westbrook in literally everything except cool dunks and media content.

Maybe you are right that Harden was better,but this is too close…


Harden: 31.9/6.5/7.9 in 35.6 MPG, 64.5 TS%, +9.7 netrtg, 18.1 PIE, -2,0%(DIFF%) and a 9-2 record
Westbrook: 33.4/7.3/6 in 36.8 MPG, 59.4 TS%, +9.3 netrtg, 17.6 PIE, -2,0%(DIFF%) and a 7-1 record

True, but Harden leads in assists, shooting, impact, PIE, and games played. Westbrook leads in just points and rebounds - by tiny margins. Harden takes 5 of the 7 metrics listed.

On the other hand, LeBron has an even worse case for "best player on his team in February" than Harden does:

Lebron: 26/8.1/10.1 in 34.9 MPG, 58.8 TS%, +8.0 netrtg, 18.8 PIE, +2,4%(DIFF%) and a 8-2 record
AD: 26/9.8/3.3 in 33.0 MPG, 60.5 TS%, +6.1 netrtg, 17.5 PIE, -4,5%(DIFF%) and a 9-2 record

(for those who aren't familiar with it, a negative is better for DIFF%)

AD leads LeBron in 4 out of 7.

Harden takes 5 of 8 against LeBron. Even Westbrook takes 4 of 8 against LeBron.

I know it's only Player of the Month. And Antetokounmpo not winning was maybe as bad. The only case against him seems to be that he played 9 games while Tatum played 12. Still, I guess I only bring it up because no one thinks Tatum has had a better season than Antetokounmpo, while most people, erroneously, seem to think James has had a better season than Harden. This award can only increase that misconception, whereas there's no danger of it doing so between Antetokounmpo and Tatum.

[ken6199]

Harden was not even the best player of his team in february.

That's an easy narrative.

Harden is still getting constantly doubled teamed and his early passing out of double teams enabled other guys. He directly (or more frequently) indirectly generates so many open looks to other guys sometime it takes 3rd or 4th pass to reach a wide open shot you don't even remember it originally comes from passing out of a double team. We still don't pass a lot, we still initiate our offense from ISO. Combined with the departure of Clint, Russ is the one who benifited the most from that. Sure he is balling out of his mind lately compared to the first two months of "chucking out of his mind" version of Russ, but that does not rival Harden's impact even if you don't include Russ sitting out of b2bs.

But I see lot of people just watch Russ tearing it up with dunking and yelling coupled with Harden's 3/16 from distance and say, wow it's Westbrook's team now. That's simply not true.

[scrabbarista]

Harden was not even the best player of his team in february.

That's an easy narrative.

Harden is still getting constantly doubled teamed and his early passing out of double teams enabled other guys. Combined with the departure of Clint, Russ is the one who benefited the most from that. Sure he is balling out of his mind lately compared to the first two months of "chucking out of his mind" version of Russ, but that does not rival Harden's impact even if you don't include Russ sitting out of b2bs.

But I see lot of people just watch Russ tearing it up with dunking and yelling coupled with Harden's 3/16 from distance and say, wow it's Westbrook's team now. That's simply not true.

Ahh. A voice of reason.

I'm sure Rockets' fans couldn't be happier with how Westbrook has played in 2020 (speaking for myself, anyway), but other than a nine-game stretch in January when he was clearly injured, Harden has been the Rockets' best and most positively impactful player all season.

[ken6199]

I'm sure Rockets' fans couldn't be happier with how Westbrook has played in 2020 (speaking for myself, anyway), but other than a nine-game stretch in January when he was clearly injured, Harden has been the Rockets' best and most positively impactful player all season.

And another thing we have to keep in mind is that Russ playing like the Russ we all love today does not come for free. We paid the hefty price of not being able to play a big man and losing rim protection just to utilize his strength. We lost that lethal Harden-Clint oops. 65-34 rebounding deficiency is no joke. Our team, and especially Russ HAS TO play at an insane level to make up for that loss.

People tend to draw conclusion from one extreme to another. It's either lol Russ is not even top 30 anymore the guy is useless to ahhhah it's his team now.

[Atmanne]

Did Lebron drop like four points in RPM overnight or was this a gradual thing?

[greekbuck34]

Did Lebron drop like four points in RPM overnight or was this a gradual thing?

The didn't update it for like 1-2 weeks because they were making some changes to their algorithme.
When they finished it Lebron had lost most of his ridiculous DRPM something which made him look like he was by far the DPOY of the league while AD at the same time was an average defender which was obviously ludicrous..

I don't know if DRPM seems more realistic right now to you overall since Lebron and Jokic are still top 10 but maybe with the changes they made and as the season keeps going on it will keep looking better and better.

I remember Harden having like way higher DRPM than Kawhi, Giannis and AD for example when the first number came out but now it looks much better on both ORPM and DRPM imo.

[JordansBulls]

A roster does not stop at 2 players....

Giannis is the MVP, but a roster has more than 2 players.The Lakers are not in the same situation as the Warriors were in 2017.

I was not aware NBA teams had more than two players on them....

The fact is, LeBron plays with a teammate who can easily be argued to be providing nearly the amount of lift he does. Davis leads the lakers in many categories offensively and is their defense anchor. I think LeBron is the lakers most important player but it isnt like hes dragging bums to the 1st seed when his teammate is arguably as good as he is.

Giannis has nobody in his stratosphere in his team. His roster construction is more complete but he shoulders the most responsibility by far.

If it weren't for Giannis, LeBron would easily be the MVP, since no one would have predicted that the Lakers would be in the first seed in the west by over 5 games early in March...Many had doubts about the rest of the roster after LeBron and Davis.

Davis is leading the team in scoring, PER, Win Shares, BPM. How is it going to be easily Lebron when his teammate has better stats and Lebron failed to make the playoffs last year until he got Anthony Davis?

[Colbinii]

I don't know if DRPM seems more realistic right now to you overall since Lebron and Jokic are still top 10 but maybe with the changes they made and as the season keeps going on it will keep looking better and better.

Both Jokic and LeBron have clearly been positives on the defensive end this season.

I remember Harden having like way higher DRPM than Kawhi, Giannis and AD for example when the first number came out but now it looks much better on both ORPM and DRPM imo.

They added a lot more box-score and removed line-up data. Basically Jokic and LeBron make their teams better defensively but don't rack up dreb/blks/stls and now it is more focused on defensive counting stats which are notoriously worse for ranking defenders compared to line-up data.

[Homer38]

I was not aware NBA teams had more than two players on them....

The fact is, LeBron plays with a teammate who can easily be argued to be providing nearly the amount of lift he does. Davis leads the lakers in many categories offensively and is their defense anchor. I think LeBron is the lakers most important player but it isnt like hes dragging bums to the 1st seed when his teammate is arguably as good as he is.

Giannis has nobody in his stratosphere in his team. His roster construction is more complete but he shoulders the most responsibility by far.

If it weren't for Giannis, LeBron would easily be the MVP, since no one would have predicted that the Lakers would be in the first seed in the west by over 5 games early in March...Many had doubts about the rest of the roster after LeBron and Davis.

Davis is leading the team in scoring, PER, Win Shares, BPM. How is it going to be easily Lebron when his teammate has better stats and Lebron failed to make the playoffs last year until he got Anthony Davis?

Last year has nothing to do with this year...

[clyde21]

Did Lebron drop like four points in RPM overnight or was this a gradual thing?

they clearly changed something in the formula, LeBron went from being 2x the next best in DRPM to 7th. they knew something didn't make sense.

eye test always had Gobert as the best defensive player in the league, DRPM matches that now

[bearadonisdna]

Fact of the matter is, most basketball pundits will still say lebron james is the best player in the league.
As the leader of a top seeded team its almost unfair to deny him.
Giannis has mvp caliber stats but its a slippery slope to continue to deny lebron validation on his stature in the league.

[RB34]

Fact of the matter is, most basketball pundits will still say lebron james is the best player in the league.
As the leader of a top seeded team its almost unfair to deny him.
Giannis has mvp caliber stats but its a slippery slope to continue to deny lebron validation on his stature in the league.

Nobody is denying LeBron validation, Giannis is having a better season and is the leader of the top seed.

[SeniorWalker]

its a slippery slope to continue to deny lebron validation on his stature in the league.

What in the world does this mean? Did you just make this up? "Deny validation on his stature"?

What does this have to do with if he's had the best season or not? Or if he's been the most valuable player in the NBA?

Has LeBron had a better individual offensive season than Giannis? No.

Has LeBron had a better individual defensive season than Giannis? No.

Has LeBron lead his team to a better record than Giannis? No.

Are you looking for a lifetime achievement award for LeBron? (We have the hall of fame for that)

Is it even a given that LeBron is better than Kawhi Leonard right now? Has LeBron done something since last year to prove this or are you assuming it based on how he played several years ago?

He's.....not the most deserving candidate. The media wanting him to win "because hes LeBron James" is not a good argument either.

[Homer38]

its a slippery slope to continue to deny lebron validation on his stature in the league.

What in the world does this mean? Did you just make this up? "Deny validation on his stature"?

What does this have to do with if he's had the best season or not? Or if he's been the most valuable player in the NBA?

Has LeBron had a better individual offensive season than Giannis? No.

Has LeBron had a better individual defensive season than Giannis? No.

Has LeBron lead his team to a better record than Giannis? No.

Are you looking for a lifetime achievement award for LeBron? (We have the hall of fame for that)

Is it even a given that LeBron is better than Kawhi Leonard right now? Has LeBron done something since last year to prove this or are you assuming it based on how he played several years ago?

He's.....not the most deserving candidate. The media wanting him to win "because hes LeBron James" is not a good argument either.

For Kawhi vs LeBron, it would be more fair if the comparison would be since 2018(like 2018 and 2020 LBJ vs 2019 and 2020 Kawhi), since the two had a season ruined by an injury, but just not at the same year and they each had one monster playoffs run during this time since 2018.

LeBron scores more and he is more efficient lately than he was before the all-star break, so we can trust LeBron in the playoffs, since he was a monster only 2 seasons ago, but yes as you said in another thread , he needs to continue in the games against the Bucks and the Clippers.

[yoyoboy]

RPM is basically just another useless box score stat now. Trying to "fix it" so you can better match the box score production order and the common person's eye test is the opposite of what a plus/minus based stat should be trying to do. Let it be its own tool. I can provide my own personal number values for every player in the league, based on no actual formulas, and it would probably be more accurate as a holistic "best players ranking" than any one single tool out there. But does that mean my methodology has any inherent value compared to those other statistics? Of course not.

[Amare_1_Knicks]

The Bucks are at 52-9, the Lakers are 47-13. The Bucks have one of the tougher schedules left — Toronto twice, Celtics twice, Lakers, Nuggets, Miami, Houston, Dallas, 76ers and Indy.

The Heat have beaten Milwaukee twice, Denver beat Milwaukee, as did Dallas. If this last stretch ultimately sets them back in terms of the gap between Milwaukee and LA’s record, then is Giannis still the overwhelming favorite? Let’s say, Milwaukee finishes 68-14, and LA 66-16.

The edge should probably still go to Giannis, but I think that makes it interesting.

[MisterHibachi]

The Bucks are at 52-9, the Lakers are 47-13. The Bucks have one of the tougher schedules left — Toronto twice, Celtics twice, Lakers, Nuggets, Miami, Houston, Dallas, 76ers and Indy.

The Heat have beaten Milwaukee twice, Denver beat Milwaukee, as did Dallas. If this last stretch ultimately sets them back in terms of the gap between Milwaukee and LA’s record, then is Giannis still the overwhelming favorite? Let’s say, Milwaukee finishes 68-14, and LA 66-16.

The edge should probably still go to Giannis, but I think that makes it interesting.

Only thing that would make it interesting would be if Lakers finish with a better record. That would mean something, especially considering they did it in a much tougher conference. But doubt that happens, and even if it does Giannis will likely win it.

[Duke4life831]

Fact of the matter is, most basketball pundits will still say lebron james is the best player in the league.
As the leader of a top seeded team its almost unfair to deny him.
Giannis has mvp caliber stats but its a slippery slope to continue to deny lebron validation on his stature in the league.

When was the last time LeBron deserved the MVP but didnt win it? Its a very slope to not give the MVP to the player who is having by far the best season who is also having the greatest team success as well. Giving LeBron the MVP just because some talking heads still feel like he is the best player in the game is a horrible reason. Especially when there is nothing statistical to back that up.