Official Speculation Thread '19-'20 V: Purgatory

[zaymon]

A lot of players make a pretty good career without being able to hit a consistent 3, like DeRozan or Vuc.

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You compare one of the worst wing shooters to one of the best center shooters ? Such obvious attempt to attack Vucevic. I am sure you thought it was very smart.

[Bensational]

A lot of players make a pretty good career without being able to hit a consistent 3, like DeRozan or Vuc.

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You compare one of the worst wing shooters to one of the best center shooters ? Such obvious attempt to attack Vucevic. I am sure you thought it was very smart.

"One of the best" with an average of 32.9% this season? Mo averages better percentages from 3 than Vuc this season. Here is a ranking of C's as 3pt shooters. And we've already established that Vuc shoots 99% of his attempts wide open, too.

You could have checked the numbers, too, instead of trying to make up facts.

[zaymon]

A lot of players make a pretty good career without being able to hit a consistent 3, like DeRozan or Vuc.

Sent from my SM-G950U using RealGM mobile app

You compare one of the worst wing shooters to one of the best center shooters ? Such obvious attempt to attack Vucevic. I am sure you thought it was very smart.

"One of the best" with an average of 32.9% this season? Mo averages better percentages from 3 than Vuc this season. Here is a ranking of C's as 3pt shooters. And we've already established that Vuc shoots 99% of his attempts wide open, too.

You could have checked the numbers, too, instead of trying to make up facts.

Another warrior of truth appeared, right on time. Maybe you want to say something about comparing Derozan 26,7 % to Vucevic 32,9 % ? Nice list with Kabengele and McDaniels, maybe you want to show us Cauley-Stein practice percentages ? Even in a down year Vucevic is top 25 shooting center among players who shot at least 2 threes, while Derozan doesnt make any reasonable list.

[Def Swami]

Both Vucevic and DeRozan are kind of dinosaurs in the modern NBA.

[Bensational]

You compare one of the worst wing shooters to one of the best center shooters ? Such obvious attempt to attack Vucevic. I am sure you thought it was very smart.

"One of the best" with an average of 32.9% this season? Mo averages better percentages from 3 than Vuc this season. Here is a ranking of C's as 3pt shooters. And we've already established that Vuc shoots 99% of his attempts wide open, too.

You could have checked the numbers, too, instead of trying to make up facts.

Another warrior of truth appeared, right on time. Maybe you want to say something about comparing Derozan 26,7 % to Vucevic 32,9 % ? Nice list with Kabengele and McDaniels, maybe you want to show us Cauley-Stein practice percentages ? Even in a down year Vucevic is top 25 shooting center among players who shot at least 2 threes, while Derozan doesnt make any reasonable list.

You're right, DeRozan vs Vuc isn't a fair comp. I didn't comment on it because I didn't think it needed commenting on. I mean, prior to last season, Vuc hadn't made the 3pt shot as much of a staple of his game. He played several seasons favouring the midrange and long 2's, not too dissimilar to DeRozan. But Vuc's allstar season came when he actually was one of the league's best 3pt shooting C's. So that completely debunks the original premise of comparing DeRozan and Vuc anyway. But that was last season, and we're currently playing this season, in which Vuc is still a much better 3pt shooter than DeRozan, but he is not having the same success as he was last season.

So you know that it's misrepresenting the truth to claim Vuc is a top 25 3pt shooting C's by any measure, other than attempts. He's averaging the 6th most 3fgas out of all centers, and even with controlled samples of ≥2 attempts a game he ranks 22nd out of 28 in efficiency which puts him in the bottom 22% of eligible C's. So he's not "one of the best" since he shoots below league average efficiency despite being league leading in attempts. But yes, he does shoot better than DeRozan from 3. Although, DeRozan has a significantly high TS% this season, so he has his means for accounting for that.

[pepe1991]

Bamba made less threes this year than Vuc since calendar year 2020 started so what's the point of using his "percentages" as long as we talk about 30 threes?

Derozan during his apsolute best season on East was good enough to be swept in second round of playoffs.
On West, playing his , by stats best season ever, he will miss playoffs with Spurs and Popovich.

Derozan isn't terrible player, and was multiple times allstar but being wing without jumpshot is simply no-go in modern era.

Where at C, you have many good bigs being iffy shooters. It's simply bonus, not required skill.

[Xatticus]

How is that suprising? His replacments are two players who will struggle to play in Euroleague ,let alone NBA?
TS% actually counts your value every time you take a shot. So every time, during around 10 times a game he does shoot- his value is among the worst in whole league. 10 shots can easly be swing of 7-11 points and that 4 point gap between good and bad shooters , across whole roster, most of the time is difference between winning and losing teams.

I didn't compare Payton to his backups. I compared him with the Orlando Magic. The Knicks score 109.2 points per 100 possessions when Payton is on the floor. The Magic score 107.5 points per 100 possessions when Vucevic and Fournier are on the floor together.

In your theory, the difference between 10 field goal attempts from Payton and 10 field goal attempts from Vucevic is 1.4 points on average, but that neglects the large majority of what is actually happening. Payton's offensive impact simply isn't as evident in his own stat line. That doesn't make it any less real.

For example, Fournier and Doncic have very similar career true shooting percentages. Fournier actually has a higher true shooting percentage this year. You could make the same argument, albeit somewhat less pronounced in this case, about the difference in potential points. And yet Fournier has been a member of one of the worst NBA offenses for six years running, while Doncic is the engine that powers the most efficient offense in NBA history.

I think the implication of the Payton/Fultz comparison was quite clear, especially given your history. Fultz is a mixed bag at this point. We just don't know what he is going to be in two years' time, but that's the nature of young point guards. We don't really have any choice but to extend him and hope that he continues to improve.

Payton can't exist in same sentence with Evan and Vučević. They are so far superior players that it's not even worth entertaining debate. Their salaries speek for itself. One is bounced around 4 team in 3 years , never could land more than 1 year deal and is basically used as cap holder for Knicks ( $0 money guaranteed for next year ) where Vuc was allstar last year and Evan is 19 ppg player on elite efficiency. To this date he never played on a team was even close to making playoffs. Good for tanking i guess?

Even if you look at their RPMs, Vuc and Evan have +0,60 and +0,70 and belong among top 12-14 players at their position and Elf is.... -0,77, ranked 57th among PGs.

RPM is best indicator of actual contribution. Doncic is 4th best player by RPM in whole league, Evan is not even close.

What's my history? Telling everybody Elfrid Payton is garbage before League started treating him as one?

My opinion about Fultz is rather simple one. if he can't regain shooting touch from outside, he, much like any other non shooting PG - isn't NBA starter at point guard position. ( only exception to this rule is Simmons, mostly because he is 6'10- 240 athletic freak)

And this is where I point out that Payton has a net rating of -2.4 versus Vucevic and Fournier lineups which have a net rating of -3.9. Vucevic's individual net rating is -1.3 and Fournier's is -3.0. So yeah... the New York Knicks have been a better team when Payton is on the floor than we have been when Evan Fournier is on the floor. Literally.

In addition to RPM, we also have RAPTOR now, which paints a dramatically different picture. Payton is +1.5, Vucevic is +1.3, and Fournier is +0.1. If you look at the breakdowns of those rating though, it becomes more evident that box score stats are what buoys Fournier's rating. Our offense is ever so slightly better when he is on the floor, but our defense craters. This is why we are a bad team when he is on the floor.

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/orlando-magic-team-stats?season=2019&category=MISC&time=0

If Fournier and Vucevic really are "so far superior", then why aren't we benefiting from it? It's also kind of irrelevant that Payton has never made the playoffs. Prior to last season, neither had Fournier or Vucevic. The reality is that had the Knicks hired Clifford and had we hired Fizdale, we almost certainly wouldn't have been anywhere near the playoffs in the last two season either. The difference is just that Clifford can squeeze more blood out of a collection of turnips.

I'm not arguing that we should bring back Payton. I'm not even arguing that he is good, but if you gave me a choice between paying Payton $8M on a one-year deal versus handing out fat contracts to Vucevic and/or Fournier, then I think the former is the easy choice. If we can somehow turn Vucevic's albatross contract into value, then that would change the math significantly, but I'm highly skeptical. In reality, we have just overpaid our own stat pillagers. You can't really use a player's contract as evidence of his value. What would be the point of statistics if salary was indicative of value? Overpaying a player doesn't make them better. It just makes it tougher to build a roster.

I'm not overly optimistic on Fultz going forward. He isn't the same player that he was when he was taken first in the draft. I'm not really pessimistic about Fultz either though. If the criticism is that he can't turn this roster into a competitor, then I think you are giving him an unreasonable task. Despite the fact that this team is a near certainty to make the playoffs, it is still a bad team. If you are a bad team, having a young and talented point guard to develop is a good thing. We are better off having Fultz on the roster than some veteran that would provide better on-court value right now because there is a chance that Fultz becomes something valuable.

Derailing the development of what precious little talent we have in an effort to add a few wins this season is a fool's crusade. I'm actually fairly concerned that this is what our front office is doing. MCW, Ennis, Aminu... in a vacuum, these might be better players than whatever alternatives we could muster, but these are not additions that add anything to our long-term outlook. Perhaps they are better than replacement level, but they hold replacement-level value and they don't move the needle for us in the here and now. One of the advantages of being a bad team is that you can use some roster spots to take on some extra risk. Memphis did this with the Jackson/Melton trade. If it doesn't work, cut bait and move on. When it does work though, you can reap huge rewards. We are never going to unearth a Dinwiddie or LeVert if the plan is to plug every hole with a 30-year-old journeyman.

[drsd]

I compared 3rd year to 3rd year because that's amount of experience those guys had.

At the end of year three, we fans were "concerned" that Payton did not have another growth-spurt in his year from year two. But were confident that he would continue to develop his game.

That Fultz is tracking Payton is not horrible. Especially given that Fultz FT% numbers are dozens of percentage points better than Payton's (meaning Fultz will not only get to the line, but get those critical And-1's that are important in today's NBA).

Frankly: at year-3 Payton did look like an NBA-starting caliber player.
..

[pepe1991]

I didn't compare Payton to his backups. I compared him with the Orlando Magic. The Knicks score 109.2 points per 100 possessions when Payton is on the floor. The Magic score 107.5 points per 100 possessions when Vucevic and Fournier are on the floor together.

In your theory, the difference between 10 field goal attempts from Payton and 10 field goal attempts from Vucevic is 1.4 points on average, but that neglects the large majority of what is actually happening. Payton's offensive impact simply isn't as evident in his own stat line. That doesn't make it any less real.

For example, Fournier and Doncic have very similar career true shooting percentages. Fournier actually has a higher true shooting percentage this year. You could make the same argument, albeit somewhat less pronounced in this case, about the difference in potential points. And yet Fournier has been a member of one of the worst NBA offenses for six years running, while Doncic is the engine that powers the most efficient offense in NBA history.

I think the implication of the Payton/Fultz comparison was quite clear, especially given your history. Fultz is a mixed bag at this point. We just don't know what he is going to be in two years' time, but that's the nature of young point guards. We don't really have any choice but to extend him and hope that he continues to improve.

Payton can't exist in same sentence with Evan and Vučević. They are so far superior players that it's not even worth entertaining debate. Their salaries speek for itself. One is bounced around 4 team in 3 years , never could land more than 1 year deal and is basically used as cap holder for Knicks ( $0 money guaranteed for next year ) where Vuc was allstar last year and Evan is 19 ppg player on elite efficiency. To this date he never played on a team was even close to making playoffs. Good for tanking i guess?

Even if you look at their RPMs, Vuc and Evan have +0,60 and +0,70 and belong among top 12-14 players at their position and Elf is.... -0,77, ranked 57th among PGs.

RPM is best indicator of actual contribution. Doncic is 4th best player by RPM in whole league, Evan is not even close.

What's my history? Telling everybody Elfrid Payton is garbage before League started treating him as one?

My opinion about Fultz is rather simple one. if he can't regain shooting touch from outside, he, much like any other non shooting PG - isn't NBA starter at point guard position. ( only exception to this rule is Simmons, mostly because he is 6'10- 240 athletic freak)

And this is where I point out that Payton has a net rating of -2.4 versus Vucevic and Fournier lineups which have a net rating of -3.9. Vucevic's individual net rating is -1.3 and Fournier's is -3.0. So yeah... the New York Knicks have been a better team when Payton is on the floor than we have been when Evan Fournier is on the floor. Literally.

In addition to RPM, we also have RAPTOR now, which paints a dramatically different picture. Payton is +1.5, Vucevic is +1.3, and Fournier is +0.1. If you look at the breakdowns of those rating though, it becomes more evident that box score stats are what buoys Fournier's rating. Our offense is ever so slightly better when he is on the floor, but our defense craters. This is why we are a bad team when he is on the floor.

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/orlando-magic-team-stats?season=2019&category=MISC&time=0

If Fournier and Vucevic really are "so far superior", then why aren't we benefiting from it? It's also kind of irrelevant that Payton has never made the playoffs. Prior to last season, neither had Fournier or Vucevic. The reality is that had the Knicks hired Clifford and had we hired Fizdale, we almost certainly wouldn't have been anywhere near the playoffs in the last two season either. The difference is just that Clifford can squeeze more blood out of a collection of turnips.

I'm not arguing that we should bring back Payton. I'm not even arguing that he is good, but if you gave me a choice between paying Payton $8M on a one-year deal versus handing out fat contracts to Vucevic and/or Fournier, then I think the former is the easy choice. If we can somehow turn Vucevic's albatross contract into value, then that would change the math significantly, but I'm highly skeptical. In reality, we have just overpaid our own stat pillagers. You can't really use a player's contract as evidence of his value. What would be the point of statistics if salary was indicative of value? Overpaying a player doesn't make them better. It just makes it tougher to build a roster.

I'm not overly optimistic on Fultz going forward. He isn't the same player that he was when he was taken first in the draft. I'm not really pessimistic about Fultz either though. If the criticism is that he can't turn this roster into a competitor, then I think you are giving him an unreasonable task. Despite the fact that this team is a near certainty to make the playoffs, it is still a bad team. If you are a bad team, having a young and talented point guard to develop is a good thing. We are better off having Fultz on the roster than some veteran that would provide better on-court value right now because there is a chance that Fultz becomes something valuable.

Derailing the development of what precious little talent we have in an effort to add a few wins this season is a fool's crusade. I'm actually fairly concerned that this is what our front office is doing. MCW, Ennis, Aminu... in a vacuum, these might be better players than whatever alternatives we could muster, but these are not additions that add anything to our long-term outlook. Perhaps they are better than replacement level, but they hold replacement-level value and they don't move the needle for us in the here and now. One of the advantages of being a bad team is that you can use some roster spots to take on some extra risk. Memphis did this with the Jackson/Melton trade. If it doesn't work, cut bait and move on. When it does work though, you can reap huge rewards. We are never going to unearth a Dinwiddie or LeVert if the plan is to plug every hole with a 30-year-old journeyman.

No, you simply can't help youself as you "died" in Payton- sucks/is good debates in 2016-2018 and can't let it go.
Payton gets one year contracts because his value as non shooting PG is that. Being payed like a backup or third string PG.
Because he is not good by any streach of imagination he is being offered this- salary holder- type deals on one year lenths. Esencially being Jeff Green-ed by a teams like Knicks who payed him and few others big bucks for one year to chase FAs in 2020 and 2021.

RPM is the best indicator of actual value. RAPTOR thing is still broken as hell and overvalues low usage and works basically against higher usage players.
Net rating is way too tied to who you play with when it comes to starters that i never payed too much attention. IN nights when Knicks play their best players as starters, they are not by invididual talent much worst than our injuries- riddled roster.

By RAPTOR value, Rudy Gobert is literally 4th best player on planet Earth and Duncan Robinson and Montrezzi Harrell are superstars and top 25 players.
Any list where Baverley, Danny Green , Royce O'neal , Donte DiVincenzo, Wood, Ivica Zubac and many other role players are ranked higher than Porzingis, Sabonis, MItchell , Brogdon or Pascal Siakam shouldn't be taken seriously.
Matter of fact this thing is so broken that Siakam who is arguably one of best two way players on planet Earth, allstar is somehow ranked lower than Alex Caruso ? Wait ,what?
Again, Pascal Siakam , Sabonis, Mitchell and Zingis, 4 allstars, did not crack top 50 list because list of 14 mpg, 15% usage rate players are ranked higher. Laughable.

I'm not for moving Fultz so i agree about bottom part.
I would not pay him big money tho.

[pepe1991]

Last 5 games:

Ross 25,6 ppg ,+70% TS, 53% for 3
Vucevic 24,6 ppg, 11,6 rpg, 3,8 apg, 60% TS
Fournier ( 4 games) 16 ppg, 50-40-100 shooting splits
Fultz 14 ppg ,6 apg , 56% FG

3 starters + Ross have been on fire.

But because of no other production other than 4 mentioned players, we still struggle.

[Bensational]

Last 5 games:

Ross 25,6 ppg ,+70% TS, 53% for 3
Vucevic 24,6 ppg, 11,6 rpg, 3,8 apg, 60% TS
Fournier ( 4 games) 16 ppg, 50-40-100 shooting splits
Fultz 14 ppg ,6 apg , 56% FG

3 starters + Ross have been on fire.

But because of no other production other than 4 mentioned players, we still struggle.

Funny you draw the line there. AG is the next name up, and even though he isn't shooting as well over those games he's still a +3.5 whereas Fournier is a -11.0. You say "because no other production other than 4 mentioned players" but AG is averaging 8.3rpg and 7.8apg over that stretch. That's an extra 15-23ppg created from AG's passing. Both AG and Fournier missed a game amongst that stretch. In games AG played we're 2-2. In games Fournier played we're 1-3.

Here are the best 5 player lineups over that last 5 games, too (with a 5 minute minimum for minutes played). Fournier is only in 1 of our 6 positive netratings, and it's 5th overall. Vuc, Gordon and Fultz all feature pretty consistently in the other positive lineups, other than our bench lineup. Then Fournier shows up again in our negative lineups which feature the most usage.

I'm not anti-Fournier and have always been a fan of his, especially with his improvement in efficiency this season. But the numbers are definitely painting a picture that his efficiency isn't translating to the W column this season. It goes against the common assumption that adding an efficient shooter like Fournier should make us better, but a simple role player like Iwundu seems to be all that is needed for the same standard of play.

[pepe1991]

Last 5 games:

Ross 25,6 ppg ,+70% TS, 53% for 3
Vucevic 24,6 ppg, 11,6 rpg, 3,8 apg, 60% TS
Fournier ( 4 games) 16 ppg, 50-40-100 shooting splits
Fultz 14 ppg ,6 apg , 56% FG

3 starters + Ross have been on fire.

But because of no other production other than 4 mentioned players, we still struggle.

Funny you draw the line there. AG is the next name up, and even though he isn't shooting as well over those games he's still a +3.5 whereas Fournier is a -11.0. You say "because no other production other than 4 mentioned players" but AG is averaging 8.3rpg and 7.8apg over that stretch. That's an extra 15-23ppg created from AG's passing. Both AG and Fournier missed a game amongst that stretch. In games AG played we're 2-2. In games Fournier played we're 1-3.

Here are the best 5 player lineups over that last 5 games, too (with a 5 minute minimum for minutes played). Fournier is only in 1 of our 6 positive netratings, and it's 5th overall. Vuc, Gordon and Fultz all feature pretty consistently in the other positive lineups, other than our bench lineup. Then Fournier shows up again in our negative lineups which feature the most usage.

I'm not anti-Fournier and have always been a fan of his, especially with his improvement in efficiency this season. But the numbers are definitely painting a picture that his efficiency isn't translating to the W column this season. It goes against the common assumption that adding an efficient shooter like Fournier should make us better, but a simple role player like Iwundu seems to be all that is needed for the same standard of play.

I used Magic 5 game split, so Gordon only played in 4 using that ( just like Evan)
in that period Gordon's numbers ( over 4 games are)
12,5 ppg
8,3 rpg
7,8 apg

on surface pretty good ,but his shooting split in that period is 44% FG, 6% for 3 and 55% FT and that's simply crap.

By BPM he is 3rd best player behind Vuc and limited amount of Isaac's playing time this year.
By RPM he is positive contributor.

Is he great ? Not really. Typical role player.
But Iwundu part is simply false and bad. Iwundu's BPM is -3,0, his RPM is -1,58. He simply is negative contributor.
Using 2 games sample size where we faced , in this moment the worst NBA roster ( since Warriors now have Curry back) , and one fluke win against Lakers without their objecivily best player ( despite media brainwash attemps) shouldn't be sample size to draw any conclusions from.
Case and point, at one point we were 6-2 without Isaac after 8 games.

[Bensational]

I used Magic 5 game split, so Gordon only played in 4 using that ( just like Evan)
in that period Gordon's numbers ( over 4 games are)
12,5 ppg
8,3 rpg
7,8 apg

on surface pretty good ,but his shooting split in that period is 44% FG, 6% for 3 and 55% FT and that's simply crap.

What does it matter if his offense is bad but he's contributing all over the court and we're winning more games than with Fournier's efficient offensive contributions? That's where I think you're losing the forest for the trees. You want shooting so desperately on the team but you seem to forget other factors go into winning the game. Otherwise we could load up on more shooters like Evan and look like Atlanta - or worse, since at least Atlanta have a top flight scorer for that style of game.

Using 2 games sample size where we faced , in this moment the worst NBA roster ( since Warriors now have Curry back) , and one fluke win against Lakers without their objecivily best player ( despite media brainwash attemps) shouldn't be sample size to draw any conclusions from.
Case and point, at one point we were 6-2 without Isaac after 8 games.

Would you prefer we use the data for the season, in which we're 26-35 in games Fournier has played? In one of the worst Eastern conferences we've had in a while, during his career best season? That doesn't really make a case for him to stick around or being much of a difference maker.

This team really does need to start taking some players away to allow others to step up and take a chance at unearthing some more talent. That's why games where Vuc, AG, Isaac or Fournier can be blessings in disguise. Without Isaac we started hot and then realised our entire defensive identity became injured with him and we cratered. Without Vuc we were pretty much at .500 level. Without Fournier we've gone 2-2, and without Gordon we lose more games without him than with him.

In that time, we saw Fultz's biggest games come when either Vuc or Fournier went down. That kind of spells that his minutes and opportunities will come at their expense. As long as AG continues to play in this controlled fashion, he looks like the kind of roleplayer worth keeping.

From what we've seen recently, I'm quite liking the Vuc/AG playmaking frontcourt partnered with the rim attacking and midrange of Fultz. I could happily try that for a season to see how it plays out. Get a Duncan Robinson or Joe Harris to play their role as a SG and see how it goes.

[VFX]

I don’t get what people can’t understand about AG not fitting with the team. Sure, he’s playing somewhat well with Vuc recently.

People must be forgetting that JI is our best asset and that the FO are NOT moving on from Vuc even though they should.

There simply are not enough weapons on offense in the starting lineup for keeping him to make sense. If they make significant changes to the roster? Sure. The chances of that happening? Look at their track record.

Just sit back and enjoy AG boosting his value for an imminent trade. He was obviously being shopped pre-deadline for a reason.

[shadrock]

We should fire Cliff and hire Kenny Atkinson today. Like immediately.

[shadrock]

I don’t get what people can’t understand about AG not fitting with the team. Sure, he’s playing somewhat well with Vuc recently.

People must be forgetting that JI is our best asset and that the FO are NOT moving on from Vuc even though they should.

There simply are not enough weapons on offense in the starting lineup for keeping him to make sense. If they make significant changes to the roster? Sure. The chances of that happening? Look at their track record.

Just sit back and enjoy AG boosting his value for an imminent trade. He was obviously being shopped pre-deadline for a reason.

JI SHOULD be our starting C. AG at PF. THAT is an exciting starting front court. Fultz and Ross in the backcourt, Wes or Ennis at SF. Vuc off the bench as our Enes Kanter type of guy, where he wont be exploited by opposing bigs on D and can score 20ppg off the bench. Trade Fournier for anything, i dont even care. All of a sudden we are an exciting up and down team who has elite defense and PUNISHES teams off mistakes. How the **** it this not the way we are playing right now?

Vuc and Fournier NEED TO GO. For like the 8th **** season in a row, its not working. Let our young guys who are entering their prime take center stage. Its time.

[MagicStarwipe]

AG is really showing off his value when he is at his best and in the correct role. Ball movement is so much better when AG is tasked as a facilitator along with Vuc. They are going to make the best decision and make it quickly and not freeze out the rest of their teammates.

[VFX]

I don’t get what people can’t understand about AG not fitting with the team. Sure, he’s playing somewhat well with Vuc recently.

People must be forgetting that JI is our best asset and that the FO are NOT moving on from Vuc even though they should.

There simply are not enough weapons on offense in the starting lineup for keeping him to make sense. If they make significant changes to the roster? Sure. The chances of that happening? Look at their track record.

Just sit back and enjoy AG boosting his value for an imminent trade. He was obviously being shopped pre-deadline for a reason.

JI SHOULD be our starting C. AG at PF. THAT is an exciting starting front court. Fultz and Ross in the backcourt, Wes or Ennis at SF. Vuc off the bench as our Enes Kanter type of guy, where he wont be exploited by opposing bigs on D and can score 20ppg off the bench. Trade Fournier for anything, i dont even care. All of a sudden we are an exciting up and down team who has elite defense and PUNISHES teams off mistakes. How the **** it this not the way we are playing right now?

Vuc and Fournier NEED TO GO. For like the 8th **** season in a row, its not working. Let our young guys who are entering their prime take center stage. Its time.

I agree. They just refuse to take any steps outside of their comfort zone (hence the title of this thread)

It doesn’t help that Vuc is an $100m third option contract and Steve Clifford is the current head coach. Those are facts that people have to come to terms with in regards to AG.

I’d love for them to start AG and JI together instead of Vuc. It’s just never going to happen. Not only that, but you can’t have 4/5 players on the floor with inconsistency from outside. Its not winning basketball.

[cedric76]

I don’t get what people can’t understand about AG not fitting with the team. Sure, he’s playing somewhat well with Vuc recently.

People must be forgetting that JI is our best asset and that the FO are NOT moving on from Vuc even though they should.

There simply are not enough weapons on offense in the starting lineup for keeping him to make sense. If they make significant changes to the roster? Sure. The chances of that happening? Look at their track record.

Just sit back and enjoy AG boosting his value for an imminent trade. He was obviously being shopped pre-deadline for a reason.

JI SHOULD be our starting C. AG at PF. THAT is an exciting starting front court. Fultz and Ross in the backcourt, Wes or Ennis at SF. Vuc off the bench as our Enes Kanter type of guy, where he wont be exploited by opposing bigs on D and can score 20ppg off the bench. Trade Fournier for anything, i dont even care. All of a sudden we are an exciting up and down team who has elite defense and PUNISHES teams off mistakes. How the **** it this not the way we are playing right now?

Vuc and Fournier NEED TO GO. For like the 8th **** season in a row, its not working. Let our young guys who are entering their prime take center stage. Its time.

I agree. They just refuse to take any steps outside of their comfort zone (hence the title of this thread)

It doesn’t help that Vuc is an unmovable $100m contract and Steve Clifford is the current head coach. Those are facts that people have to come to terms with in regards to AG.

I’d love for them to start AG and JI together instead of Vuc. It’s just never going to happen. Not only that, but you can’t have 4/5 players on the floor with inconsistency from outside. It not winning basketball.

Why do people carry on with that dumb comment that vuc s contract is unmovable?

Stop been silly

[Xatticus]

Orlando Magic 2019/20 Net Rtg On/Off differentials:
Augustin +5.0
Isaac +3.1
Bamba +3.1
Vucevic +2.6
Iwundu +2.5
MCW +1.7
Fultz +1.3
Gordon -1.9
Ross -3.6
Fournier -3.9
Aminu -4.2
Birch -5.7
Ennis -6.8
Clark -7.9