ESPN's 'The Last Dance' -- ongoing discussion

[lazybatman]

But it’s all relative and Michael would have access to all of those things too if he played in this era. His game was also about so much more than athleticism. It was also about his competitive drive, fundamentals, leadership, mental fortitude and skill all in one package. No doubt Lebron is more of a physical freak but he’s 3-6 in the finals, should be 2-7, and I think Kyrie was more the reason they beat Golden State. I would’ve loved to see how his career unfolded if he played out West his entire career.

I think Jordan would be even better in today’s game because it’s easier to drive to the lane. Less physical and big men are often pulled further out to defend. Jordan was averaging over 30 ppg in an era where the average points scored in a game was far less than it is now.

Players are not "wildly more athletic now", particularly superstars. If there's been a change it's been teams doing a better job finding bench players. Shaq, MJ, etc would still be every bit the athletic freaks they were in their own eras and even more - would get all the benefits of modern training, analytics, etc.

I mean it's just basic biology - humans are not getting more athletic over time (although a larger population means you have a slightly better chance of finding freak outliers I suppose(

Fellows,
Is it a certainty that MJ goes 6/6 if he doesn't get drafted by Jerry Krauss @ no.3 in 1984? Are you sure he doesn't self destruct in his own head, and still does it without getting the help of Doug Collins, Phil, Cartwright, Scottie, Dennis, Kukoc, Paxon, Kerr, Harper, etc exactly when he did? Does he ever win a title, forget 6/6 or 3/9, if he gets drafted by present day MJ / Magic / Dan Gilbert / Jim Dolan if he doesn't go out and form a super team.

Sure, Lebron was dumb enough to come back to that situation and waste another 4 years trying to win one for the "LAND", rather than go to the Spurs / Warriors, but let's just put that aside as we do MJ's multiple retirements.

For the extreme competitiveness, killer instinct and mental fortitude he lacks, Lebron's still attempted and hit more game winners in the playoffs and regular season at a higher clip, not even counting the right passes made to team mates. And he has come back from a 3-1 finals deficit against a 73 win arguably a top 1/2 team ever. Mike's Bulls only ever trailed twice from game 1 losses to Lakers and Jazz; Never in Game 3 / 5.

Mike's probably the closest to perfect in his technique, shooting form, bottom line efficiency in every individual move, and boy did he have a motor - the sick game, the unearthly minutes he could play the other team's best guard 1-on-1 and still have energy to takeover at the end of games.

Lebron is unquestionably a better leader with a higher game IQ who makes average/below average players around him better(Think Delly, Mike Miller, Shane Battier, JR, TT, Shump, Chris Anderson, RJ, Channing Frye, Dwight and f*cking Timofey Mozgov) and net negative but good players like Kyrie and K-Love look like superstars. You think any of these role players go into Mike/Kobe's gas chamber and come out so good. Cuckoo Kyrie and KD only liked Kobe on TV and afar on another team. Why do you think none of them ever tried to play with him? Cos Kobe/Mike would send them packing to their Mama cos they're soft. Kyrie complained about Lebron when he left and KD can't stop whining about Steve Kerr, Steph Curry and the Warriors now.

The playoff finals record is 6/6 vs 3/9 sure.. but Lebron, with worse teams, got to 3 more finals; 2 more ECFs in the same number of playoff appearances, and never with the best coach in the time, the best number 2 player(Top 25 all time) and the best rebounder / DPOY. He's only gone to the finals as the oddsmakers favourite twice(Miami 2011 & 2012), compared to MJ's 6/6 finals with a superior team that never got taken to a a game 7, and won 55 games without him.

There's a lot of decisions / variables / luck / timing involved in any players legacy. Let's not create extreme hyperbolic godly narratives of one guy's mental fortitude and killer instinct and competitiveness, which just don't add up.

And if you think Kyrie and Horry and Paxon and Ray Allen won those championships with Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Paker, Manu and Mike hanging on to their coat tails, cos they took the last shot, Good Luck to you my friends.

[LKN]

But it’s all relative and Michael would have access to all of those things too if he played in this era. His game was also about so much more than athleticism. It was also about his competitive drive, fundamentals, leadership, mental fortitude and skill all in one package. No doubt Lebron is more of a physical freak but he’s 3-6 in the finals, should be 2-7, and I think Kyrie was more the reason they beat Golden State. I would’ve loved to see how his career unfolded if he played out West his entire career.

I think Jordan would be even better in today’s game because it’s easier to drive to the lane. Less physical and big men are often pulled further out to defend. Jordan was averaging over 30 ppg in an era where the average points scored in a game was far less than it is now.

Players are not "wildly more athletic now", particularly superstars. If there's been a change it's been teams doing a better job finding bench players. Shaq, MJ, etc would still be every bit the athletic freaks they were in their own eras and even more - would get all the benefits of modern training, analytics, etc.

I mean it's just basic biology - humans are not getting more athletic over time (although a larger population means you have a slightly better chance of finding freak outliers I suppose(

Fellows,
Is it a certainty that MJ goes 6/6 if he doesn't get drafted by Jerry Krauss @ no.3 in 1984? Are you sure he doesn't self destruct in his own head, and still does it without getting the help of Doug Collins, Phil, Cartwright, Scottie, Dennis, Kukoc, Paxon, Kerr, Harper, etc exactly when he did? Does he ever win a title, forget 6/6 or 3/9, if he gets drafted by present day MJ / Magic / Dan Gilbert / Jim Dolan if he doesn't go out and form a super team.

Sure, Lebron was dumb enough to come back to that situation and waste another 4 years trying to win one for the "LAND", rather than go to the Spurs / Warriors, but let's just put that aside as we do MJ's multiple retirements.

For the extreme competitiveness, killer instinct and mental fortitude he lacks, Lebron's still attempted and hit more game winners in the playoffs and regular season at a higher clip, not even counting the right passes made to team mates. And he has come back from a 3-1 finals deficit against a 73 win arguably a top 1/2 team ever. Mike's Bulls only ever trailed twice from game 1 losses to Lakers and Jazz; Never in Game 3 / 5.

Mike's probably the closest to perfect in his technique, shooting form, bottom line efficiency in every individual move, and boy did he have a motor - the sick game, the unearthly minutes he could play the other team's best guard 1-on-1 and still have energy to takeover at the end of games.

Lebron is unquestionably a better leader with a higher game IQ who makes average/below average players around him better(Think Delly, Mike Miller, Shane Battier, JR, TT, Shump, Chris Anderson, RJ, Channing Frye, Dwight and f*cking Timofey Mozgov) and net negative but good players like Kyrie and K-Love look like superstars. You think any of these role players go into Mike/Kobe's gas chamber and come out so good. Cuckoo Kyrie and KD only liked Kobe on TV and afar on another team. Why do you think none of them ever tried to play with him? Cos Kobe/Mike would send them packing to their Mama cos they're soft. Kyrie complained about Lebron when he left and KD can't stop whining about Steve Kerr, Steph Curry and the Warriors now.

The playoff finals record is 6/6 vs 3/9 sure.. but Lebron, with worse teams, got to 3 more finals; 2 more ECFs in the same number of playoff appearances, and never with the best coach in the time, the best number 2 player(Top 25 all time) and the best rebounder / DPOY. He's only gone to the finals as the oddsmakers favourite twice(Miami 2011 & 2012), compared to MJ's 6/6 finals with a superior team that never got taken to a a game 7, and won 55 games without him.

There's a lot of decisions / variables / luck / timing involved in any players legacy. Let's not create extreme hyperbolic godly narratives of one guy's mental fortitude and killer instinct and competitiveness, which just don't add up.

And if you think Kyrie and Horry and Paxon and Ray Allen won those championships with Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Paker, Manu and Mike hanging on to their coat tails, cos they took the last shot, Good Luck to you my friends.

Dude - if you are a LeBron guy that's fine. I'm not someone who buys into the "3/9" stuff FWIW - that's a lazy dumb argument. I'm also not here to bash LBJ. I'm an MJ guy, but I have LBJ up there as one of the best we've ever seen. Dude is phenomenal.

Functionally - LBJ losing to the warriors was pretty similar to MJ losing to the Pistons. The Pistons just happened to play in the same conference.


I will say that comparing the leadership of MJ and Kobe makes little sense. MJ could be hard on his team mates, but he was generally well liked and he was much more gregarious and outgoing than Kobe, who was known as much more of a loner. Phil Jackson has written and talked about the differences quite a bit and has said many times that MJ was a much better leader.

I think we have quite a bit of evidence that the trio of MJ/Pippen/Jackson managed to turn quite a few of those Bulls teams into more than the sum of their parts. In particular those 2nd threepeat Bulls teams didn't have that much offensive talent, yet they led the league in ORTG in 1996.

[ssang]

When people simply watched Jordan play, they thought he was the best player they have ever seen. His game was that beautiful. His one handed, numerous pump fake shots on drives were something else. The up and unders, reverse layups, the hangtime, the finishing ability....it was poetry in motion, you could play Jazz music to his highlights.

It was 1991, after one ring, that the media, fans and people in general started saying he was the best player they had ever seen. It wasn't his rings, accolades, awards, it was his GAME.

The footage they have of him from the 80's is only about 30% of the total games he played, what you see is only a small percentage of the **** he actually did on the floor. All the Youtube clips, highlights, are all rehashed footage seen again and again. But if you saw him live, you would understand why people who even hated him like I did growing up, understood he was a different animal. It's why we aren't impressed by Lebron's physical dominance, because his game leaves a lot to be desired after having watched the actual best to ever do it play.

Lebron and others are just not that. These guys are stat stuffers, winners, champions, whatever, but their game cannot touch Michael's. Kobe was Michael Lite, but after he dedicated his life and game to copy Michaels, and even then it was a big "Meh". He just didn't have the natural physical ability to do the things Jordan did. The Mitts.

I remember watching a Bulls game with my late grandma, who knew nothing about basketball, would just watch the screen when the games were on. I remember till this day what she said one night she saw Jordan...he finished an up and under, no look over the shoulder And 1 layup after scoring many points in a row.

"Wow, they come down while he is still in the air, he doesn't even look. It must be impossible to stop him because nobody can stay in the air with him. WHAT IS THIS MAN??"

She had no clue who Micheal Jordan was, but even to a 70 year old lady from a village in South Asia, his game spoke to her. She didn't know about his scoring titles, future rings, stats, dominance. All she knew was that she was watching somebody do something that nobody else could replicate on the court.

The first time my father saw him, against the Knicks in the playoffs, he asked...."is that the best player in the league? He is so much better than everybody else on the court." He knew. Not from looking at the number of points he was scoring or his championships....just by watching him MOVE on the court.

That's why he's the GOAT. Forget Wilt's numbers, Russels rings, Lebron's stats across the board. It was Jordan's game, his style of play coupled with his dominance that made people say damn, that's the greatest player we've ever seen.

This man gets it

[lazybatman]

Dude - if you are a LeBron guy that's fine. I'm not someone who buys into the "3/9" stuff FWIW - that's a lazy dumb argument. I'm also not here to bash LBJ. I'm an MJ guy, but I have LBJ up there as one of the best we've ever seen. Dude is phenomenal.

Functionally - LBJ losing to the warriors was pretty similar to MJ losing to the Pistons. The Pistons just happened to play in the same conference.


I will say that comparing the leadership of MJ and Kobe makes little sense. MJ could be hard on his team mates, but he was generally well liked and he was much more gregarious and outgoing than Kobe, who was known as much more of a loner. Phil Jackson has written and talked about the differences quite a bit and has said many times that MJ was a much better leader.

I think we have quite a bit of evidence that the trio of MJ/Pippen/Jackson managed to turn quite a few of those Bulls teams into more than the sum of their parts. In particular those 2nd threepeat Bulls teams didn't have that much offensive talent, yet they led the league in ORTG in 1996.

Bro, I'm as much of a Lebron guy, as I am an MJ guy. As I said, I started playing ball cos of MJ, and continue watching it now cos of Lebron. I don't enjoy reading the hazy memory hyperbole of our generation, bearing no context, just cos MJ was easier on the eye, blessed with better technique and shooting touch.

I can't argue with your points here, specially the distinction between between Kobe & Mike's demeanor. My bad!

But, MJ wasn't nearly as good of a leader / team mate as Lebron is. Bringing in the 7 time rebounding leader / DPOY / NBA Champion who knows his role and has an above average understanding of the game and ignoring him having a little fun for a couple of weeks here and there isn't the same complexity as optimizing Dellavedova, Mozgov, Shump, Frye's talents.. and losing finals games cos JR has one of his many brain farts in the final possession of the game. Do you think Kukoc and several others not featured in the doc were particularly happy with the treatment they received from Mike over the years. And couldn't a 1 year mercenary like Kawhi join the 1994 Bulls squad and help them win the chip without Michael. They won 55 games that year cos they were a great happy talented team with a great coach. I'm not saying they were the Raptors who are a collection of the world's best role players, they were considerably better.

And Lebron can't be as clearly distinguished from his peers and predecessors cos he simply started playing after skilled great athletes like MJ, Kobe, T-Mac, Vince, D-Wade, etc. Context!

[ssang]

...But, MJ wasn't nearly as good of a leader / team mate as Lebron is. Bringing in the 7 time rebounding leader / DPOY / NBA Champion who knows his role and has an above average understanding of the game and ignoring him having a little fun for a couple of weeks here and there isn't the same complexity as optimizing Dellavedova, Mozgov, Shump, Frye's talents.. and losing finals games cos JR has one of his many brain farts in the final possession of the game. Do you think Kukoc and several others not featured in the doc were particularly happy with the treatment they received from Mike over the years. And couldn't a 1 year mercenary like Kawhi join the 1994 Bulls squad and help them win the chip without Michael. They won 55 games that year cos they were a great happy talented team with a great coach. I'm not saying they were the Raptors who are a collection of the world's best role players, they were considerably better.

That part in bold red font: no offense, but sir, you have that ass-backwards. There may be a world where LeBron James has superior leadership qualities to Michael Jordan...but not the one that exists in this life, on this planet, in this reality; no sir.

One of the two leadership examples below aptly describes LeBron James and the way it went down, and the other aptly describes Jordan's leadership situation and the way it went down. Guess which one's which.

Player "A": Good leadership
Molding teammates, sticking up for them in all instances on the court and publicly while creating a no nonsense, winning culture and sticking with the squad. Leading by example through hard work and determination and demanding the same thing from the troops you are leading; all the while remaining loyal to your franchise and all that you/they have been building to try and achieve together. And when the going gets tough, when not expected to win and getting knocked down - time and time and time again - in spite of giving it your all, everything you got and then some, leaving every last bit of it out on the court, continuing to rally the troops and pushing each other that much harder in spite of the adversity. Until one day eventually overcoming that mountain, conquering all; all the while referencing the challenges faced and obstacles overcome in a "we" capacity, every step along the way.

Player "B": Not nearly as good / faux leadership
Whooping and yucking it up with your boys all regular season long, cruising along to top seeds, front-running. And then when the going gets tough, come playoff time, wilting under pressure to lesser teams, throwing your hands up and ceasing to try - mid-game even. Passive-aggressively throwing teammates under the bus, talking about wishing how this person could clone himself out there and all sorts of **** like that; and then ditching your boys, whining to anyone who would listen that -- in spite of back-to back 66 and 61 win seasons and #1 overall playoff seeds -- he, himself is/was in an impossible situation win at the highest level. And then proceeding to run, leaving the entire franchise in shambles, to team up with ready-made all-stars and champions, making stank-face, prancing around to some laser-show the next day, declaring yourselves multiple-time future champions upwards of 8!) before even suiting up for a single practice together let alone a single damn game, only to proceed to crumble yet again at the end of the day. And then it's win some, lose some from there for a handful of years, only to rinse, wash and repeat the same thing again.

But yeah, you're right. Clearly LeBron is a much better leader and teammate and Michael Jordan. Unquestionably, without a doubt...

or perhaps it would behoove you to re-think that position.

[unicron5]

I don't think LeBron's basketball IQ is any higher at all than Jordan's. There's very few times where Jordan made plays where you're like "what the f**k was he thinking there" ... and he would pass the ball if a teammate had a much better shot. It was just a simple pass most of the time he didn't have to fancy it up.

The fundamentals he learned in North Carolina were rock solid.

[lazybatman]

...But, MJ wasn't nearly as good of a leader / team mate as Lebron is. Bringing in the 7 time rebounding leader / DPOY / NBA Champion who knows his role and has an above average understanding of the game and ignoring him having a little fun for a couple of weeks here and there isn't the same complexity as optimizing Dellavedova, Mozgov, Shump, Frye's talents.. and losing finals games cos JR has one of his many brain farts in the final possession of the game. Do you think Kukoc and several others not featured in the doc were particularly happy with the treatment they received from Mike over the years. And couldn't a 1 year mercenary like Kawhi join the 1994 Bulls squad and help them win the chip without Michael. They won 55 games that year cos they were a great happy talented team with a great coach. I'm not saying they were the Raptors who are a collection of the world's best role players, they were considerably better.

That part in bold red font: no offense, but sir, you have that ass-backwards. There may be a world where LeBron James has superior leadership qualities to Michael Jordan...but not the one that exists in this life, on this planet, in this reality; no sir.

One of the two leadership examples below aptly describes LeBron James and the way it went down, and the other aptly describes Jordan's leadership situation and the way it went down. Guess which one's which.

Player "A": Good leadership
Molding teammates, sticking up for them in all instanceslike he stuck up and went on a strike for Scottie when he needed a new contract. Oh wait, he called him selfish publicly 22 years later on the court and publiclylike when he asked the Air Stewardess to not serve food to Horace Grant cos he had a bad game while creating a no nonsense, winning cultureeasy to do with the best team in the league by far, best coach and best FO, or you meant the secret games in his basement before 1991 and sticking with the squadin his first of second retirement. Isiah Thomas Jr(of the Boston Celtics) showed what is loyalty to the team. Leading by example through hard work and determination and demandingwould you send your kids / siblings to be subjected to that kinda abuse you call leading the same thing from the troops you are leading; all the while remaining loyalsure, if you call mocking the GM who built the winning culture publicly all the time loyalty to your franchise and all that you/they have been building to try and achieve together. And when the going gets tough, when not expected to win and getting knocked down - time and time and time again - in spite of giving it your all, everything you got and then some, leaving every last bit of it out on the court, continuing to rally the troops and pushing each other that much harder in spite of the adversity. Until one day eventually overcoming that mountain, conquering all; all the while referencing the challenges faced and obstacles overcome in a "we" capacity, every step along the way. - Is this text from a Trump or Lavar Ball speech? Repeat the same factless BS enough times and you will eventually speak it into existence. Is it Robert Frost's work.. sounds awfully inspiring

Player "B": Not nearly as good / faux leadership
Whooping and yucking it up with your boys all regular season long, cruising along to top seeds, front-running. And then when the going gets tough, come playoff time, wilting under pressure to lesser teams, throwing your hands up and ceasing to try - mid-game even. Passive-aggressively throwing teammates under the bus, talking about wishing how this person could clone himself out there and all sorts of **** like that; and then ditching your boys, whining to anyone who would listen that -- in spite of back-to back 66 and 61 win seasons and #1 overall playoff seeds -- he, himself is/was in an impossible situation win at the highest level. And then proceeding to run, leaving the entire franchise in shambles, to team up with ready-made all-stars and champions, making stank-face, prancing around to some laser-show the next day, declaring yourselves multiple-time future champions upwards of 8!) before even suiting up for a single practice together let alone a single damn game, only to proceed to crumble yet again at the end of the day. And then it's win some, lose some from there for a handful of years, only to rinse, wash and repeat the same thing again.

But yeah, you're right. Clearly LeBron is a much better leader and teammate and Michael Jordan. Unquestionably, without a doubt...

or perhaps it would behoove you to re-think that position.

My answers in red font for you above Sir.

[twyzted]

But it’s all relative and Michael would have access to all of those things too if he played in this era. His game was also about so much more than athleticism. It was also about his competitive drive, fundamentals, leadership, mental fortitude and skill all in one package. No doubt Lebron is more of a physical freak but he’s 3-6 in the finals, should be 2-7, and I think Kyrie was more the reason they beat Golden State. I would’ve loved to see how his career unfolded if he played out West his entire career.

I think Jordan would be even better in today’s game because it’s easier to drive to the lane. Less physical and big men are often pulled further out to defend. Jordan was averaging over 30 ppg in an era where the average points scored in a game was far less than it is now.

Players are not "wildly more athletic now", particularly superstars. If there's been a change it's been teams doing a better job finding bench players. Shaq, MJ, etc would still be every bit the athletic freaks they were in their own eras and even more - would get all the benefits of modern training, analytics, etc.

I mean it's just basic biology - humans are not getting more athletic over time (although a larger population means you have a slightly better chance of finding freak outliers I suppose(

Fellows,
Is it a certainty that MJ goes 6/6 if he doesn't get drafted by Jerry Krauss @ no.3 in 1984? Are you sure he doesn't self destruct in his own head, and still does it without getting the help of Doug Collins, Phil, Cartwright, Scottie, Dennis, Kukoc, Paxon, Kerr, Harper, etc exactly when he did? Does he ever win a title, forget 6/6 or 3/9, if he gets drafted by present day MJ / Magic / Dan Gilbert / Jim Dolan if he doesn't go out and form a super team.

Sure, Lebron was dumb enough to come back to that situation and waste another 4 years trying to win one for the "LAND", rather than go to the Spurs / Warriors, but let's just put that aside as we do MJ's multiple retirements.

For the extreme competitiveness, killer instinct and mental fortitude he lacks, Lebron's still attempted and hit more game winners in the playoffs and regular season at a higher clip, not even counting the right passes made to team mates. And he has come back from a 3-1 finals deficit against a 73 win arguably a top 1/2 team ever. Mike's Bulls only ever trailed twice from game 1 losses to Lakers and Jazz; Never in Game 3 / 5.

Mike's probably the closest to perfect in his technique, shooting form, bottom line efficiency in every individual move, and boy did he have a motor - the sick game, the unearthly minutes he could play the other team's best guard 1-on-1 and still have energy to takeover at the end of games.

Lebron is unquestionably a better leader with a higher game IQ who makes average/below average players around him better(Think Delly, Mike Miller, Shane Battier, JR, TT, Shump, Chris Anderson, RJ, Channing Frye, Dwight and f*cking Timofey Mozgov) and net negative but good players like Kyrie and K-Love look like superstars. You think any of these role players go into Mike/Kobe's gas chamber and come out so good. Cuckoo Kyrie and KD only liked Kobe on TV and afar on another team. Why do you think none of them ever tried to play with him? Cos Kobe/Mike would send them packing to their Mama cos they're soft. Kyrie complained about Lebron when he left and KD can't stop whining about Steve Kerr, Steph Curry and the Warriors now.

The playoff finals record is 6/6 vs 3/9 sure.. but Lebron, with worse teams, got to 3 more finals; 2 more ECFs in the same number of playoff appearances, and never with the best coach in the time, the best number 2 player(Top 25 all time) and the best rebounder / DPOY. He's only gone to the finals as the oddsmakers favourite twice(Miami 2011 & 2012), compared to MJ's 6/6 finals with a superior team that never got taken to a a game 7, and won 55 games without him.

There's a lot of decisions / variables / luck / timing involved in any players legacy. Let's not create extreme hyperbolic godly narratives of one guy's mental fortitude and killer instinct and competitiveness, which just don't add up.

And if you think Kyrie and Horry and Paxon and Ray Allen won those championships with Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Paker, Manu and Mike hanging on to their coat tails, cos they took the last shot, Good Luck to you my friends.

Jerry kraus didnt draft him. He started as gm in 85 after Jordan was drafted.

Also have you looked at Steve Kerrs career stats? His best years came with the bulls. He was end of bench type of guy who played good with the bulls and when he left his output went down. Same with Longley. Now why do you think they played their best years with the bulls?

Yes Jordan never had to claw his way back from being down in playoffs so what? Jordan hit 2 game winners atleast in the finals and made the right pass to kerr in 97.
Are we handing out trophies for failure or success?

And Lebron gets no passes for hooping around the league what 3 times. He could select his team what gm and coach he wanted to play for. So he got what he choose.

And i cant understand how a player who tries to trade all the young players from the lakers in the middle of the season instead of leading them and teached them and make them better. Is some how a great teammate or a leader he knew who were on the lakers when he signed there.

I absolutly love that now paxson, carthwright, kerr, longley are some super players and role players lebron played with are trash

And Love did not look like a super star with lebron he looked like a super star in minnesota then was made a spotup 3 pt shooter.

And do realise that kyrie was for the first time this season a unrestricted free agent. Im pretty sure kobe was retired then. And kobe was 36 playing his last season when kd went to the gsw.

And why does it matter that Jordan went to the bulls who had more interest in partying than playing his rookie season then he got a good gm who was smart the rest is history. It is what it is. Nothing can change that. What should we value him less for winning?

[ssang]

...But, MJ wasn't nearly as good of a leader / team mate as Lebron is. Bringing in the 7 time rebounding leader / DPOY / NBA Champion who knows his role and has an above average understanding of the game and ignoring him having a little fun for a couple of weeks here and there isn't the same complexity as optimizing Dellavedova, Mozgov, Shump, Frye's talents.. and losing finals games cos JR has one of his many brain farts in the final possession of the game. Do you think Kukoc and several others not featured in the doc were particularly happy with the treatment they received from Mike over the years. And couldn't a 1 year mercenary like Kawhi join the 1994 Bulls squad and help them win the chip without Michael. They won 55 games that year cos they were a great happy talented team with a great coach. I'm not saying they were the Raptors who are a collection of the world's best role players, they were considerably better.

That part in bold red font: no offense, but sir, you have that ass-backwards. There may be a world where LeBron James has superior leadership qualities to Michael Jordan...but not the one that exists in this life, on this planet, in this reality; no sir.

One of the two leadership examples below aptly describes LeBron James and the way it went down, and the other aptly describes Jordan's leadership situation and the way it went down. Guess which one's which.

Player "A": Good leadership
Molding teammates, sticking up for them in all instanceslike he stuck up and went on a strike for Scottie when he needed a new contract. Oh wait, he called him selfish publicly 22 years later on the court and publiclylike when he asked the Air Stewardess to not serve food to Horace Grant cos he had a bad game while creating a no nonsense, winning cultureeasy to do with the best team in the league by far, best coach and best FO, or you meant the secret games in his basement before 1991 and sticking with the squadin his first of second retirement. Isiah Thomas Jr(of the Boston Celtics) showed what is loyalty to the team. Leading by example through hard work and determination and demandingwould you send your kids / siblings to be subjected to that kinda abuse you call leading the same thing from the troops you are leading; all the while remaining loyalsure, if you call mocking the GM who built the winning culture publicly all the time loyalty to your franchise and all that you/they have been building to try and achieve together. And when the going gets tough, when not expected to win and getting knocked down - time and time and time again - in spite of giving it your all, everything you got and then some, leaving every last bit of it out on the court, continuing to rally the troops and pushing each other that much harder in spite of the adversity. Until one day eventually overcoming that mountain, conquering all; all the while referencing the challenges faced and obstacles overcome in a "we" capacity, every step along the way. - Is this text from a Trump or Lavar Ball speech? Repeat the same factless BS enough times and you will eventually speak it into existence. Is it Robert Frost's work.. sounds awfully inspiring

Player "B": Not nearly as good / faux leadership
Whooping and yucking it up with your boys all regular season long, cruising along to top seeds, front-running. And then when the going gets tough, come playoff time, wilting under pressure to lesser teams, throwing your hands up and ceasing to try - mid-game even. Passive-aggressively throwing teammates under the bus, talking about wishing how this person could clone himself out there and all sorts of **** like that; and then ditching your boys, whining to anyone who would listen that -- in spite of back-to back 66 and 61 win seasons and #1 overall playoff seeds -- he, himself is/was in an impossible situation win at the highest level. And then proceeding to run, leaving the entire franchise in shambles, to team up with ready-made all-stars and champions, making stank-face, prancing around to some laser-show the next day, declaring yourselves multiple-time future champions upwards of 8!) before even suiting up for a single practice together let alone a single damn game, only to proceed to crumble yet again at the end of the day. And then it's win some, lose some from there for a handful of years, only to rinse, wash and repeat the same thing again.

But yeah, you're right. Clearly LeBron is a much better leader and teammate and Michael Jordan. Unquestionably, without a doubt...

or perhaps it would behoove you to re-think that position.

My answers in red font for you above Sir.

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion. Just know that your opinion is wrong. Or I should say, the inaccuracies of a whole wide-range of things you espouse (some even factually inaccurate) that have lead you to your "take" that formulates your opinion, is wrong. And I say that with all due respect. I think it's important, for your sake, assuming that you want to have it right, that you understand this. I'm here to help.

[unicron5]

Scottie Pippen was a selfish idiot for protesting his contract ... WHAT are the Bulls supposed to do? You can't just renegotiate a contract when ever you feel like it, that's a violation of CBA rules. And Pippen is the one who WANTED that contract even against objections from the owner, lol.

Like what the f*ck planet are you living on where Pippen is the good guy in that.

He signed a contract that he insisted on, then gets pissed off that its not enough money later, then decides to punish the team by being selfish and not getting surgery in the off-season.

Jordan was underpaid for many years too and he never made a stink like that.

If any star player pulled a stunt like this today they would get completely destroyed by the press and social media and rightfully so.

[twyzted]

...But, MJ wasn't nearly as good of a leader / team mate as Lebron is. Bringing in the 7 time rebounding leader / DPOY / NBA Champion who knows his role and has an above average understanding of the game and ignoring him having a little fun for a couple of weeks here and there isn't the same complexity as optimizing Dellavedova, Mozgov, Shump, Frye's talents.. and losing finals games cos JR has one of his many brain farts in the final possession of the game. Do you think Kukoc and several others not featured in the doc were particularly happy with the treatment they received from Mike over the years. And couldn't a 1 year mercenary like Kawhi join the 1994 Bulls squad and help them win the chip without Michael. They won 55 games that year cos they were a great happy talented team with a great coach. I'm not saying they were the Raptors who are a collection of the world's best role players, they were considerably better.

That part in bold red font: no offense, but sir, you have that ass-backwards. There may be a world where LeBron James has superior leadership qualities to Michael Jordan...but not the one that exists in this life, on this planet, in this reality; no sir.

One of the two leadership examples below aptly describes LeBron James and the way it went down, and the other aptly describes Jordan's leadership situation and the way it went down. Guess which one's which.

Player "A": Good leadership
Molding teammates, sticking up for them in all instanceslike he stuck up and went on a strike for Scottie when he needed a new contract. Oh wait, he called him selfish publicly 22 years later on the court and publiclylike when he asked the Air Stewardess to not serve food to Horace Grant cos he had a bad game while creating a no nonsense, winning cultureeasy to do with the best team in the league by far, best coach and best FO, or you meant the secret games in his basement before 1991 and sticking with the squadin his first of second retirement. Isiah Thomas Jr(of the Boston Celtics) showed what is loyalty to the team. Leading by example through hard work and determination and demandingwould you send your kids / siblings to be subjected to that kinda abuse you call leading the same thing from the troops you are leading; all the while remaining loyalsure, if you call mocking the GM who built the winning culture publicly all the time loyalty to your franchise and all that you/they have been building to try and achieve together. And when the going gets tough, when not expected to win and getting knocked down - time and time and time again - in spite of giving it your all, everything you got and then some, leaving every last bit of it out on the court, continuing to rally the troops and pushing each other that much harder in spite of the adversity. Until one day eventually overcoming that mountain, conquering all; all the while referencing the challenges faced and obstacles overcome in a "we" capacity, every step along the way. - Is this text from a Trump or Lavar Ball speech? Repeat the same factless BS enough times and you will eventually speak it into existence. Is it Robert Frost's work.. sounds awfully inspiring

Player "B": Not nearly as good / faux leadership
Whooping and yucking it up with your boys all regular season long, cruising along to top seeds, front-running. And then when the going gets tough, come playoff time, wilting under pressure to lesser teams, throwing your hands up and ceasing to try - mid-game even. Passive-aggressively throwing teammates under the bus, talking about wishing how this person could clone himself out there and all sorts of **** like that; and then ditching your boys, whining to anyone who would listen that -- in spite of back-to back 66 and 61 win seasons and #1 overall playoff seeds -- he, himself is/was in an impossible situation win at the highest level. And then proceeding to run, leaving the entire franchise in shambles, to team up with ready-made all-stars and champions, making stank-face, prancing around to some laser-show the next day, declaring yourselves multiple-time future champions upwards of 8!) before even suiting up for a single practice together let alone a single damn game, only to proceed to crumble yet again at the end of the day. And then it's win some, lose some from there for a handful of years, only to rinse, wash and repeat the same thing again.

But yeah, you're right. Clearly LeBron is a much better leader and teammate and Michael Jordan. Unquestionably, without a doubt...

or perhaps it would behoove you to re-think that position.

My answers in red font for you above Sir.

Why did scottie need a new contract? He had a contract he signed it even though the owner said it was a bad contract. And yeah its selfish to have a surgery right at the start of the season. To stick it to the management.

And remind me of last season what did lebron do? Ohh yeah he publicly tried to trade most of his team young players who played pretty well for nola this season. Maybe they could have been better if lebron gave them more than 40 games before sending them away and he just arrived and signed a contract that summer he had 28 other teams to choose from but poor lebron.

Would you treat your boss at work with respect if threatend to fire you or your good friend? I would not noway if im doing my job and my boss is talking publicly about replacing me.

[unicron5]

That part in bold red font: no offense, but sir, you have that ass-backwards. There may be a world where LeBron James has superior leadership qualities to Michael Jordan...but not the one that exists in this life, on this planet, in this reality; no sir.

One of the two leadership examples below aptly describes LeBron James and the way it went down, and the other aptly describes Jordan's leadership situation and the way it went down. Guess which one's which.

Player "A": Good leadership
Molding teammates, sticking up for them in all instanceslike he stuck up and went on a strike for Scottie when he needed a new contract. Oh wait, he called him selfish publicly 22 years later on the court and publiclylike when he asked the Air Stewardess to not serve food to Horace Grant cos he had a bad game while creating a no nonsense, winning cultureeasy to do with the best team in the league by far, best coach and best FO, or you meant the secret games in his basement before 1991 and sticking with the squadin his first of second retirement. Isiah Thomas Jr(of the Boston Celtics) showed what is loyalty to the team. Leading by example through hard work and determination and demandingwould you send your kids / siblings to be subjected to that kinda abuse you call leading the same thing from the troops you are leading; all the while remaining loyalsure, if you call mocking the GM who built the winning culture publicly all the time loyalty to your franchise and all that you/they have been building to try and achieve together. And when the going gets tough, when not expected to win and getting knocked down - time and time and time again - in spite of giving it your all, everything you got and then some, leaving every last bit of it out on the court, continuing to rally the troops and pushing each other that much harder in spite of the adversity. Until one day eventually overcoming that mountain, conquering all; all the while referencing the challenges faced and obstacles overcome in a "we" capacity, every step along the way. - Is this text from a Trump or Lavar Ball speech? Repeat the same factless BS enough times and you will eventually speak it into existence. Is it Robert Frost's work.. sounds awfully inspiring

Player "B": Not nearly as good / faux leadership
Whooping and yucking it up with your boys all regular season long, cruising along to top seeds, front-running. And then when the going gets tough, come playoff time, wilting under pressure to lesser teams, throwing your hands up and ceasing to try - mid-game even. Passive-aggressively throwing teammates under the bus, talking about wishing how this person could clone himself out there and all sorts of **** like that; and then ditching your boys, whining to anyone who would listen that -- in spite of back-to back 66 and 61 win seasons and #1 overall playoff seeds -- he, himself is/was in an impossible situation win at the highest level. And then proceeding to run, leaving the entire franchise in shambles, to team up with ready-made all-stars and champions, making stank-face, prancing around to some laser-show the next day, declaring yourselves multiple-time future champions upwards of 8!) before even suiting up for a single practice together let alone a single damn game, only to proceed to crumble yet again at the end of the day. And then it's win some, lose some from there for a handful of years, only to rinse, wash and repeat the same thing again.

But yeah, you're right. Clearly LeBron is a much better leader and teammate and Michael Jordan. Unquestionably, without a doubt...

or perhaps it would behoove you to re-think that position.

My answers in red font for you above Sir.

Why did scottie need a new contract? He had a contract he signed it even though the owner said it was a bad contract. And yeah its selfish to have a surgery right at the start of the season. To stick it to the management.

And remind me of last season what did lebron do? Ohh yeah he publicly tried to trade most of his team young players who played pretty well for nola this season. Maybe they could have been better if lebron gave them more than 40 games before sending them away and he just arrived and signed a contract that summer he had 28 other teams to choose from but poor lebron.

Would you treat your boss at work with respect if threatend to fire you or your good friend? I would not noway if im doing my job and my boss is talking publicly about replacing me.

It's total bull sh*t what Pippen did. If a star player did that today in the NBA he would get destroyed by the public.

He insisted on that contract, then cried about it later, even if the Bulls wanted to change it you can't do that. That's why we have a damn CBA. Imagine a team doing the opposite, saying half way through a contract the player they're paying is making too much money and now they want to void the contract or they won't let the player play.

LOL, the NBAPA would shut down the season right then and there.

When you sign a contract, you honor it. Scottie knew he was gonna get paid big time in free agency 1998, he was being a baby.

[Brofessor24]

That part in bold red font: no offense, but sir, you have that ass-backwards. There may be a world where LeBron James has superior leadership qualities to Michael Jordan...but not the one that exists in this life, on this planet, in this reality; no sir.

One of the two leadership examples below aptly describes LeBron James and the way it went down, and the other aptly describes Jordan's leadership situation and the way it went down. Guess which one's which.

Player "A": Good leadership
Molding teammates, sticking up for them in all instanceslike he stuck up and went on a strike for Scottie when he needed a new contract. Oh wait, he called him selfish publicly 22 years later on the court and publiclylike when he asked the Air Stewardess to not serve food to Horace Grant cos he had a bad game while creating a no nonsense, winning cultureeasy to do with the best team in the league by far, best coach and best FO, or you meant the secret games in his basement before 1991 and sticking with the squadin his first of second retirement. Isiah Thomas Jr(of the Boston Celtics) showed what is loyalty to the team. Leading by example through hard work and determination and demandingwould you send your kids / siblings to be subjected to that kinda abuse you call leading the same thing from the troops you are leading; all the while remaining loyalsure, if you call mocking the GM who built the winning culture publicly all the time loyalty to your franchise and all that you/they have been building to try and achieve together. And when the going gets tough, when not expected to win and getting knocked down - time and time and time again - in spite of giving it your all, everything you got and then some, leaving every last bit of it out on the court, continuing to rally the troops and pushing each other that much harder in spite of the adversity. Until one day eventually overcoming that mountain, conquering all; all the while referencing the challenges faced and obstacles overcome in a "we" capacity, every step along the way. - Is this text from a Trump or Lavar Ball speech? Repeat the same factless BS enough times and you will eventually speak it into existence. Is it Robert Frost's work.. sounds awfully inspiring

Player "B": Not nearly as good / faux leadership
Whooping and yucking it up with your boys all regular season long, cruising along to top seeds, front-running. And then when the going gets tough, come playoff time, wilting under pressure to lesser teams, throwing your hands up and ceasing to try - mid-game even. Passive-aggressively throwing teammates under the bus, talking about wishing how this person could clone himself out there and all sorts of **** like that; and then ditching your boys, whining to anyone who would listen that -- in spite of back-to back 66 and 61 win seasons and #1 overall playoff seeds -- he, himself is/was in an impossible situation win at the highest level. And then proceeding to run, leaving the entire franchise in shambles, to team up with ready-made all-stars and champions, making stank-face, prancing around to some laser-show the next day, declaring yourselves multiple-time future champions upwards of 8!) before even suiting up for a single practice together let alone a single damn game, only to proceed to crumble yet again at the end of the day. And then it's win some, lose some from there for a handful of years, only to rinse, wash and repeat the same thing again.

But yeah, you're right. Clearly LeBron is a much better leader and teammate and Michael Jordan. Unquestionably, without a doubt...

or perhaps it would behoove you to re-think that position.

My answers in red font for you above Sir.

Why did scottie need a new contract? He had a contract he signed it even though the owner said it was a bad contract. And yeah its selfish to have a surgery right at the start of the season. To stick it to the management.

And remind me of last season what did lebron do? Ohh yeah he publicly tried to trade most of his team young players who played pretty well for nola this season. Maybe they could have been better if lebron gave them more than 40 games before sending them away and he just arrived and signed a contract that summer he had 28 other teams to choose from but poor lebron.

Would you treat your boss at work with respect if threatend to fire you or your good friend? I would not noway if im doing my job and my boss is talking publicly about replacing me.

IMO trading away some young prospects in order to get a player like AD is always a no brainer. In order to win a championship, you have to do what you gotta do.

Ultimately, the Lakers' front office decided to "send them away," not King James. The front office always has the final say with regard to situations like that.

[twyzted]

My answers in red font for you above Sir.

Why did scottie need a new contract? He had a contract he signed it even though the owner said it was a bad contract. And yeah its selfish to have a surgery right at the start of the season. To stick it to the management.

And remind me of last season what did lebron do? Ohh yeah he publicly tried to trade most of his team young players who played pretty well for nola this season. Maybe they could have been better if lebron gave them more than 40 games before sending them away and he just arrived and signed a contract that summer he had 28 other teams to choose from but poor lebron.

Would you treat your boss at work with respect if threatend to fire you or your good friend? I would not noway if im doing my job and my boss is talking publicly about replacing me.

IMO trading away some young prospects in order to get a player like AD is always a no brainer. In order to win a championship, you have to do what you gotta do.

Ultimately, the Lakers' front office decided to "send them away," not King James. The front office always has the final say with regard to situations like that.

Ofcourse you do that every time but he was talking about how good of a team mate lebron is vs Jordan so i just pointed that out that even though it is the right thing to do its not a good thing to do.

[Brofessor24]

Why did scottie need a new contract? He had a contract he signed it even though the owner said it was a bad contract. And yeah its selfish to have a surgery right at the start of the season. To stick it to the management.

And remind me of last season what did lebron do? Ohh yeah he publicly tried to trade most of his team young players who played pretty well for nola this season. Maybe they could have been better if lebron gave them more than 40 games before sending them away and he just arrived and signed a contract that summer he had 28 other teams to choose from but poor lebron.

Would you treat your boss at work with respect if threatend to fire you or your good friend? I would not noway if im doing my job and my boss is talking publicly about replacing me.

IMO trading away some young prospects in order to get a player like AD is always a no brainer. In order to win a championship, you have to do what you gotta do.

Ultimately, the Lakers' front office decided to "send them away," not King James. The front office always has the final say with regard to situations like that.

Ofcourse you do that every time but he was talking about how good of a team mate lebron is vs Jordan so i just pointed that out that even though it is the right thing to do its not a good thing to do.

IMO it is a good thing to do.

[twyzted]

IMO trading away some young prospects in order to get a player like AD is always a no brainer. In order to win a championship, you have to do what you gotta do.

Ultimately, the Lakers' front office decided to "send them away," not King James. The front office always has the final say with regard to situations like that.

Ofcourse you do that every time but he was talking about how good of a team mate lebron is vs Jordan so i just pointed that out that even though it is the right thing to do its not a good thing to do.

IMO it is a good thing to do.

Not to his teammates but good for every one other. And it dosent make him a "good teammate" which was my point.

[lazybatman]

My answers in red font for you above Sir.

Why did scottie need a new contract? He had a contract he signed it even though the owner said it was a bad contract. And yeah its selfish to have a surgery right at the start of the season. To stick it to the management.

And remind me of last season what did lebron do? Ohh yeah he publicly tried to trade most of his team young players who played pretty well for nola this season. Maybe they could have been better if lebron gave them more than 40 games before sending them away and he just arrived and signed a contract that summer he had 28 other teams to choose from but poor lebron.

Would you treat your boss at work with respect if threatend to fire you or your good friend? I would not noway if im doing my job and my boss is talking publicly about replacing me.

IMO trading away some young prospects in order to get a player like AD is always a no brainer. In order to win a championship, you have to do what you gotta do.

Ultimately, the Lakers' front office decided to "send them away," not King James. The front office always has the final say with regard to situations like that.

Nah man.. Every wrong trade is made by Lebron. The fact that Magic/Lakers FO couldn't prevent the leaks is also on Lebron.

So by the same logic, are we blaming MJ for breaking up the Bulls in '98.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[lazybatman]

My answers in red font for you above Sir.

Why did scottie need a new contract? He had a contract he signed it even though the owner said it was a bad contract. And yeah its selfish to have a surgery right at the start of the season. To stick it to the management.

And remind me of last season what did lebron do? Ohh yeah he publicly tried to trade most of his team young players who played pretty well for nola this season. Maybe they could have been better if lebron gave them more than 40 games before sending them away and he just arrived and signed a contract that summer he had 28 other teams to choose from but poor lebron.

Would you treat your boss at work with respect if threatend to fire you or your good friend? I would not noway if im doing my job and my boss is talking publicly about replacing me.

It's total bull sh*t what Pippen did. If a star player did that today in the NBA he would get destroyed by the public.

He insisted on that contract, then cried about it later, even if the Bulls wanted to change it you can't do that. That's why we have a damn CBA. Imagine a team doing the opposite, saying half way through a contract the player they're paying is making too much money and now they want to void the contract or they won't let the player play.

LOL, the NBAPA would shut down the season right then and there.

When you sign a contract, you honor it. Scottie knew he was gonna get paid big time in free agency 1998, he was being a baby.

Scottie could've been right or wrong. And personally, I think a top 25-30 all time player like him deserves to renegotiate his contract. They could've renewed him starting next year on a bigger, more amicable contract, like what Kyle Lowry got last year from the Raps.

Regardless, the point is, Mike wasn't above calling out / embarrassing and humiliating his team mates or GM publicly / blaming them for everything that went wrong and didn't always stand by their side as the poster suggested. Don't build false narratives about it.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[twyzted]

Why did scottie need a new contract? He had a contract he signed it even though the owner said it was a bad contract. And yeah its selfish to have a surgery right at the start of the season. To stick it to the management.

And remind me of last season what did lebron do? Ohh yeah he publicly tried to trade most of his team young players who played pretty well for nola this season. Maybe they could have been better if lebron gave them more than 40 games before sending them away and he just arrived and signed a contract that summer he had 28 other teams to choose from but poor lebron.

Would you treat your boss at work with respect if threatend to fire you or your good friend? I would not noway if im doing my job and my boss is talking publicly about replacing me.

IMO trading away some young prospects in order to get a player like AD is always a no brainer. In order to win a championship, you have to do what you gotta do.

Ultimately, the Lakers' front office decided to "send them away," not King James. The front office always has the final say with regard to situations like that.

Nah man.. Every wrong trade is made by Lebron. The fact that Magic/Lakers FO couldn't prevent the leaks is also on Lebron.

So by the same logic, are we blaming MJ for breaking up the Bulls in '98.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Ohh so its just a coincidence that a star player of a other team wants out and just hired lebrons friend as agent and only wants to go the lakers

And kraus said that Phil wasent coming back so its Jordans fault that the bulls broke up? Why should a guy who won 6 titles in 8 years be fired? Did you see Alex Ferguson be fired by Man utd because the gm of united wanted to get more recognition for all the titles

[The Rodzilla]

IMO trading away some young prospects in order to get a player like AD is always a no brainer. In order to win a championship, you have to do what you gotta do.

Ultimately, the Lakers' front office decided to "send them away," not King James. The front office always has the final say with regard to situations like that.

Nah man.. Every wrong trade is made by Lebron. The fact that Magic/Lakers FO couldn't prevent the leaks is also on Lebron.

So by the same logic, are we blaming MJ for breaking up the Bulls in '98.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Ohh so its just a coincidence that a star player of a other team wants out and just hired lebrons friend as agent and only wants to go the lakers

And kraus said that Phil wasent coming back so its Jordans fault that the bulls broke up? Why should a guy who won 6 titles in 8 years be fired? Did you see Alex Ferguson be fired by Man utd because the gm of united wanted to get more recognition for all the titles

in 2003 alex ferguson was threatened with dismissal with 6 titles in the last 8 years, Mourinho was let go by Chelsea twice with a combined 3 out of 6 and more, ranieri was fired after Leicester city won in a miracle, del bosque was sacked with 2 la liga and 2 champions leagues in 4 years, hitzfield was sacked with 4 titles in 6 years and a champions league (unlucky not to have 2), Churchill was sacked after winning world war 2 and worst of all Rodzilla was sacked in football manager by Tottenham after winning 3 titles