2020 NBA Draft II

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#821 » by getrichordie » Thu May 21, 2020 4:18 am

karkinos wrote:i think immanuel quickley is getting underrated. he has a defined role and is ahead of the curve compared to most when it comes to catch and shoot. his wingspan is definitely above average. everyone has this guy in the second round and i think he's a first round talent with a high floor.


Eh, I'd say Quickley is getting slept on a little, but he's not really a first round talent. For his skill-set, he has a fairly light frame. He doesn't project to do a whole lot at the next level outside of C&S 3s and he hasn't shown a ton of deep range ability on those either. His defense is very concerning, though he has some tools, though doesn't use them well. Was worst defender on Kentucky out of all players that mattered.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#822 » by getrichordie » Thu May 21, 2020 4:19 am

Saben Lee might be shooting up my board soon. In the midst of watching more tape of him, and hot damn, is he athletic. Reminds me a little of Westbrook.

Watch the dunk at the beginning of this video:

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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#823 » by King Ken » Thu May 21, 2020 5:29 am

getrichordie wrote:
karkinos wrote:i think immanuel quickley is getting underrated. he has a defined role and is ahead of the curve compared to most when it comes to catch and shoot. his wingspan is definitely above average. everyone has this guy in the second round and i think he's a first round talent with a high floor.


Eh, I'd say Quickley is getting slept on a little, but he's not really a first round talent. For his skill-set, he has a fairly light frame. He doesn't project to do a whole lot at the next level outside of C&S 3s and he hasn't shown a ton of deep range ability on those either. His defense is very concerning, though he has some tools, though doesn't use them well. Was worst defender on Kentucky out of all players that mattered.

I am starting to habitually sleep on UK players. Herro and Washington for most of last year, shout out to Clyde for getting me to see the light.

Quickley is so hard to grade. While he does have a +6 wingspan, he's 6'3 190. He's a good Basketball player but look at those who he compares to and how many have stayed more than 3 years in the NBA. I will say this, Quickley can defend and Dorsey and Stoudamire couldn't. So maybe I am sleeping on Quickley. But what's his NBA position? I hope he goes to a great situation for himself. Quickley's metrics don't help. While he is a PoC defender, his steals rates are below average, blocks rate is terrible. He has all of the red flags you don't want to see from an undersized off guard.

He does have a lot of skills, he can draw fouls, he can really shoot it, he split 3pt contest with Cam Reddish at the Powerade Jam Fest (McAA) a couple of years ago. I'm skeptical. I need to go back to the tape on Quickley. Maybe he has off the ball skills that give him an edge and the potential to be a secondary PG. I don't need to see Reggie or Steph. I just want to see Jodie Meeks or Seth Curry like movement. I need something more because based on what we got, he's really hard to project karkinos.

GRoD, exactly, I didn't see what I saw from Herro. I didn't see Quickley running off of screens often. I didn't see any high-end variance from the 3pt line like Herro. I didn't see that from Quickley. It was primary spot-ups and C&S and those are so hard cleanly to get in the NBA. This is why the skill Tres Tickle has is so valuable in the modern NBA even if he's not the shooter Quickley is. Because projection is might see him as a plus shooter but just being a plus shooter is not enough in today's NBA. Which is why I say, would Eddie House work in today's NBA.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#824 » by karkinos » Thu May 21, 2020 11:26 am

getrichordie wrote:
karkinos wrote:i think immanuel quickley is getting underrated. he has a defined role and is ahead of the curve compared to most when it comes to catch and shoot. his wingspan is definitely above average. everyone has this guy in the second round and i think he's a first round talent with a high floor.


Eh, I'd say Quickley is getting slept on a little, but he's not really a first round talent. For his skill-set, he has a fairly light frame. He doesn't project to do a whole lot at the next level outside of C&S 3s and he hasn't shown a ton of deep range ability on those either. His defense is very concerning, though he has some tools, though doesn't use them well. Was worst defender on Kentucky out of all players that mattered.


he might have been the worst defender (not sure if you're using a metric for this) but i don't really think he was significantly worse among his peers
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#825 » by karkinos » Thu May 21, 2020 11:50 am

King Ken wrote:I am starting to habitually sleep on UK players. Herro and Washington for most of last year, shout out to Clyde for getting me to see the light.

Quickley is so hard to grade. While he does have a +6 wingspan, he's 6'3 190. He's a good Basketball player but look at those who he compares to and how many have stayed more than 3 years in the NBA. I will say this, Quickley can defend and Dorsey and Stoudamire couldn't. So maybe I am sleeping on Quickley. But what's his NBA position? I hope he goes to a great situation for himself. Quickley's metrics don't help. While he is a PoC defender, his steals rates are below average, blocks rate is terrible. He has all of the red flags you don't want to see from an undersized off guard.

He does have a lot of skills, he can draw fouls, he can really shoot it, he split 3pt contest with Cam Reddish at the Powerade Jam Fest (McAA) a couple of years ago. I'm skeptical. I need to go back to the tape on Quickley. Maybe he has off the ball skills that give him an edge and the potential to be a secondary PG. I don't need to see Reggie or Steph. I just want to see Jodie Meeks or Seth Curry like movement. I need something more because based on what we got, he's really hard to project karkinos.

maxey and quickley both had similar steals rate per game. blocks rate is terrible, fine. defensive box plus minus is low, ok, but he also has double that on offense. assists low, well he plays with hagans and maxey as the lead ball handlers. his job at kentucky was to be the reliable scorer and did it well. he isn't the best finisher but he averaged 5 FTs per game and hit over 90% of them. under calipari i think he showed that he can fit a role if given one. but underneath all that, he has shown significant improvement from his freshman season and stepped into the role well, and i see the potential for continued growth in his game.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#826 » by King Ken » Thu May 21, 2020 1:56 pm

karkinos wrote:
King Ken wrote:I am starting to habitually sleep on UK players. Herro and Washington for most of last year, shout out to Clyde for getting me to see the light.

Quickley is so hard to grade. While he does have a +6 wingspan, he's 6'3 190. He's a good Basketball player but look at those who he compares to and how many have stayed more than 3 years in the NBA. I will say this, Quickley can defend and Dorsey and Stoudamire couldn't. So maybe I am sleeping on Quickley. But what's his NBA position? I hope he goes to a great situation for himself. Quickley's metrics don't help. While he is a PoC defender, his steals rates are below average, blocks rate is terrible. He has all of the red flags you don't want to see from an undersized off guard.

He does have a lot of skills, he can draw fouls, he can really shoot it, he split 3pt contest with Cam Reddish at the Powerade Jam Fest (McAA) a couple of years ago. I'm skeptical. I need to go back to the tape on Quickley. Maybe he has off the ball skills that give him an edge and the potential to be a secondary PG. I don't need to see Reggie or Steph. I just want to see Jodie Meeks or Seth Curry like movement. I need something more because based on what we got, he's really hard to project karkinos.

maxey and quickley both had similar steals rate per game. blocks rate is terrible, fine. defensive box plus minus is low, ok, but he also has double that on offense. assists low, well he plays with hagans and maxey as the lead ball handlers. his job at kentucky was to be the reliable scorer and did it well. he isn't the best finisher but he averaged 5 FTs per game and hit over 90% of them. under calipari i think he showed that he can fit a role if given one. but underneath all that, he has shown significant improvement from his freshman season and stepped into the role well, and i see the potential for continued growth in his game.

The fear I see is most of his movements are planned. This is similar to Seth Curry at Duke when they played him off the ball. The type of movement I need to see from Quickley is constant movement. He also doesn't have a high variance like Herro did even if he's playing the same style. I am going, to be honest with you. For him to truly work, he's going to really really have to work to stay in this league. He's going to have to have an elite self-creation game around the 3pt line. dribble pullups, stepback 3s, he has to have a higher-end variance. C&S and telegraph don't get you open like that much less that many touches. You do realize Klay who's the best off ball player in the NBA outside of Steph only gets 45 touches a game over the last 4-5 regular seasons?

Watch this:
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#827 » by getrichordie » Thu May 21, 2020 1:58 pm

video:



SABEN LEE
6'2 // ~190 // 6'9 ws

synopsis:
Spoiler:
In my eyes, he's very comparable to Maxey in terms of physical profile. He's a bit smaller, but still. Lee is really athletic and is effective at attacking the basket when he gets down hill and has good, functional vision when the defense prevents him. He's effective at splitting P&R defenses and extremely quick (elite burst) at getting to the hole. Shows good functional use of his left hand when advantageous (defender's lead foot or hips turned towards right hand as seen @5:43 in video). Can knock down open pull-up 3s and C&S 3s. I really like patience + timing in transition. He uses good hesitation dribbles to throw defenders off and is effective at controlling the pace and picking the right time to attack. His instincts for this are really awesome. Basically, Lee can get to the hole at will and finish about 60% of the time and draws a lot of fouls too. His FTr is ridiculous.


key stats/takeaways:

9 games w/ Nesmith this year

Image

games w/o Nesmith

Image

... Obviously losing Nesmith hurt Lee's performance as it took away some spacing and allowed defenses to focus a little more on Lee. He still got to the basket and finished relatively well for a 6'2 guard, but his shooting #s plummeted overall but he still found a way to distribute the ball. The silver lining here is that despite losing Nesmith, Lee eventually bounced back and found a way to score from outside, averaging >40% on 3s over his last 8 games and upped his average O-Rtg w/o Nesmith to >113 w/ huge performances against Alabama (38 pts) and LSU (33 pts).
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#828 » by Stillwater » Thu May 21, 2020 2:04 pm

getrichordie wrote:
karkinos wrote:i think immanuel quickley is getting underrated. he has a defined role and is ahead of the curve compared to most when it comes to catch and shoot. his wingspan is definitely above average. everyone has this guy in the second round and i think he's a first round talent with a high floor.


Eh, I'd say Quickley is getting slept on a little, but he's not really a first round talent. For his skill-set, he has a fairly light frame. He doesn't project to do a whole lot at the next level outside of C&S 3s and he hasn't shown a ton of deep range ability on those either. His defense is very concerning, though he has some tools, though doesn't use them well. Was worst defender on Kentucky out of all players that mattered.

He was developing into a legit scorer last season and the league loves grabbing instant offense guards even ones that are just 1 position defenders. However i see a solid 2nd unit pg that can easily run a team and is long enough to become playable as a 1 position defender and small 2 poa.
He absolutely is a late first early 2nd high floor get because of that shooting improvement.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#829 » by getrichordie » Thu May 21, 2020 2:12 pm

Stillwater wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
karkinos wrote:i think immanuel quickley is getting underrated. he has a defined role and is ahead of the curve compared to most when it comes to catch and shoot. his wingspan is definitely above average. everyone has this guy in the second round and i think he's a first round talent with a high floor.


Eh, I'd say Quickley is getting slept on a little, but he's not really a first round talent. For his skill-set, he has a fairly light frame. He doesn't project to do a whole lot at the next level outside of C&S 3s and he hasn't shown a ton of deep range ability on those either. His defense is very concerning, though he has some tools, though doesn't use them well. Was worst defender on Kentucky out of all players that mattered.

He was developing into a legit scorer last season and the league loves grabbing instant offense guards even ones that are just 1 position defenders. However i see a solid 2nd unit pg that can easily run a team and is long enough to become playable as a 1 position defender and small 2 poa.
He absolutely is a late first early 2nd high floor get because of that shooting improvement.


You see a 2nd unit PG that can run a team? What in the hell makes you think Quickley can run a team? Unless he makes a big jump in his handles, he's just an undersized swingman who can't create his own shot, nor create for others, really.

Where his value lies is just hitting open 3s on a team that already has playmakers and doesn't need a ton of help from guards outside of hitting 3s.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#830 » by Stillwater » Thu May 21, 2020 2:20 pm

getrichordie wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
Eh, I'd say Quickley is getting slept on a little, but he's not really a first round talent. For his skill-set, he has a fairly light frame. He doesn't project to do a whole lot at the next level outside of C&S 3s and he hasn't shown a ton of deep range ability on those either. His defense is very concerning, though he has some tools, though doesn't use them well. Was worst defender on Kentucky out of all players that mattered.

He was developing into a legit scorer last season and the league loves grabbing instant offense guards even ones that are just 1 position defenders. However i see a solid 2nd unit pg that can easily run a team and is long enough to become playable as a 1 position defender and small 2 poa.
He absolutely is a late first early 2nd high floor get because of that shooting improvement.


You see a 2nd unit PG that can run a team? What in the hell makes you think Quickley can run a team? Unless he makes a big jump in his handles, he's just an undersized swingman who can't create his own shot, nor create for others, really.

Where his value lies is just hitting open 3s on a team that already has playmakers and doesn't need a ton of help from guards outside of hitting 3s.

Wait and see...
How Cal used him was more about lack of his level of floor spacing by the other 2 guards than it was about their ability to run a team. Hagans as good of a passer as he is has little chance of making any nba roster without significantly improving as a shooter. Maxey is overrated because he is not a good floor gen. A worse passer and despite having decent defensive instincts and good upside as a scorer and finisher is not the shooter quickly is yet. Quickly as is has a better shot at a rotation job than Maxey does.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#831 » by getrichordie » Thu May 21, 2020 2:30 pm

Saw some guys talking about Bolmaro v. Avdija. Biggest differentiator between the two is size and athleticism, IMO. I know Bolmaro is listed at 6'8, but I'm not buying it. Every video I've seen of him, he looks 6'6 at best. Wouldn't shock me if he is 6'5. Deni is clearly 6'7-6'8 and more athletic and more switchable.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#832 » by getrichordie » Thu May 21, 2020 3:11 pm

Flynn is like a smaller version of Kemba.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#833 » by getrichordie » Thu May 21, 2020 3:17 pm

Look at this beautiful dish by Riller @ 9:40

Spoiler:
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#834 » by getrichordie » Thu May 21, 2020 3:36 pm

Beautiful, creative dish by Maledon @ 0:30 mark.

And another one @ 0:45...

Spoiler:
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#835 » by D3ko » Thu May 21, 2020 4:32 pm

getrichordie wrote:Saw some guys talking about Bolmaro v. Avdija. Biggest differentiator between the two is size and athleticism, IMO. I know Bolmaro is listed at 6'8, but I'm not buying it. Every video I've seen of him, he looks 6'6 at best. Wouldn't shock me if he is 6'5. Deni is clearly 6'7-6'8 and more athletic and more switchable.


i was one of those.

Spanish league usually doesnt inflate heights.
HAving said that.

Bolmaro is a SG/SF meanwhile Advija is more a SF/PF.

The floor comparision for both will be :

Bolmaro is more Cedi Osman/Musa , meanwhile Avdija is Hernangomez/Kurucs.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#836 » by getrichordie » Thu May 21, 2020 4:44 pm

D3ko wrote:
getrichordie wrote:Saw some guys talking about Bolmaro v. Avdija. Biggest differentiator between the two is size and athleticism, IMO. I know Bolmaro is listed at 6'8, but I'm not buying it. Every video I've seen of him, he looks 6'6 at best. Wouldn't shock me if he is 6'5. Deni is clearly 6'7-6'8 and more athletic and more switchable.


i was one of those.

Spanish league usually doesnt inflate heights.
HAving said that.

Bolmaro is a SG/SF meanwhile Advija is more a SF/PF.

The floor comparision for both will be :

Bolmaro is more Cedi Osman/Musa , meanwhile Avdija is Hernangomez/Kurucs.


https://www.eurobasket.com/Spain/basketball-Players.asp

EuroBasket has him listed at 6'5. They also have Avdija listed at 6'7.5
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#837 » by getrichordie » Thu May 21, 2020 5:00 pm

What's the best path for Patrick Williams? I see the potential, but is it the best thing to throw him into the fire and let him learn or is it better to have him spend some time in the G-League and mold him into the player you want him to be?
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#838 » by Catchall » Thu May 21, 2020 5:02 pm

getrichordie wrote:What's the best path for Patrick Williams? I see the potential, but is it the best thing to throw him into the fire and let him learn or is it better to have him spend some time in the G-League and mold him into the player you want him to be?


Best path would be going to a team that has some patience and a successful track record in developing players. He has a lot of potential. Some G-league is likely involved.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#839 » by getrichordie » Thu May 21, 2020 5:12 pm

Catchall wrote:
getrichordie wrote:What's the best path for Patrick Williams? I see the potential, but is it the best thing to throw him into the fire and let him learn or is it better to have him spend some time in the G-League and mold him into the player you want him to be?


Best path would be going to a team that has some patience and a successful track record in developing players. He has a lot of potential. Some G-league is likely involved.


Just going through my big board again and I feel like I have him way too high.

I mean, I don't think he is a better prospect than Pokusevski. Both players have potential, but I'd be willing to bet that Poku can replicate Williams' defensive impact quite easily and I think he's the more natural scorer.

My gut feeling is telling me to slot him a little bit above Saddiq Bey on my big board, who I am lower on than most.
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Re: 2020 NBA Draft II 

Post#840 » by Catchall » Thu May 21, 2020 5:18 pm

getrichordie wrote:
Catchall wrote:
getrichordie wrote:What's the best path for Patrick Williams? I see the potential, but is it the best thing to throw him into the fire and let him learn or is it better to have him spend some time in the G-League and mold him into the player you want him to be?


Best path would be going to a team that has some patience and a successful track record in developing players. He has a lot of potential. Some G-league is likely involved.


Just going through my big board again and I feel like I have him way too high.

I mean, I don't think he is a better prospect than Pokusevski. Both players have potential, but I'd be willing to bet that Poku can replicate Williams' defensive impact quite easily and I think he's the more natural scorer.

My gut feeling is telling me to slot him a little bit above Saddiq Bey on my big board, who I am lower on than most.


I think realistically Williams is going to get drafted in the 16 - 20 range, maybe more like 18 - 22. If he had workouts to prove that he can knock down shots or create off the dribble, he could rise, but I'm not sure he's going to get that chance. I think he gets drafted shortly after Nesmith (unless Nesmith has a medical red flag). I think Williams is basically the Chuma Okeke of this draft for a team that believes in him.

Pokusevski is an interesting case because he's so young and so physically underdeveloped. He could be stashed for another year in Europe, or would otherwise need a couple years before he's a regular contributor. That could drop him a few spots in the draft to a team that's more patient and thinking longer term. It reminds me of when the Jazz drafted Andrei Kirilenko in 1999 and brought him over a year later.

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