Khris Middleton Thread

[paulpressey25]

Well, remember Sabonis was a key piece to bringing Paul George to OKC

Yep. And he would have made signing Ersan redundant back then.

[FrieAaron]

It's hard to ignore the fact that just looking at this latest series we've played, Tyler Herro, Duncan Robinson and Kendrick Nunn are probably all better than every player we've drafted over the last decade, save like 3.

[jute2003]

You can argue that Middleton is not a 2nd option on a championship team and you can argue that he has a bad contract. But calling him lazy and not competitive is ridiculous. I'm sorry but that's the truth.

Oh really?

What evidence do you have?

I've got every 4th Quarter and him getting benched for not playing hard and him admitting he didn't shoot for three months and his overall physique and DOZENS OF BIG GAMES IN THE REGULAR SEASON AND PLAYOFFS. I've got statistical, anecdotal, quotes from his own mouth and eye test.

Show your cards sir. I call.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using RealGM mobile app

Benched for not playing hard? Show me proof of this. Him not shooting for months has a million better explanations than him being lazy. If he was lazy, why would he not SHOOT out of all things? That's like one of the easiest things to do no the floor. "Too lazy to shoot" is an amazing take.

Dozens of big games in the playoffs... you mean when he hits those clutch shots against the Bulls in 2015 or the Celtics in 2018 or the Heat this year.

He was benched at one point by both kidd and Bud for not playing hard enough.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Oh really?

What evidence do you have?

I've got every 4th Quarter and him getting benched for not playing hard and him admitting he didn't shoot for three months and his overall physique and DOZENS OF BIG GAMES IN THE REGULAR SEASON AND PLAYOFFS. I've got statistical, anecdotal, quotes from his own mouth and eye test.

Show your cards sir. I call.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using RealGM mobile app

Benched for not playing hard? Show me proof of this. Him not shooting for months has a million better explanations than him being lazy. If he was lazy, why would he not SHOOT out of all things? That's like one of the easiest things to do no the floor. "Too lazy to shoot" is an amazing take.

Dozens of big games in the playoffs... you mean when he hits those clutch shots against the Bulls in 2015 or the Celtics in 2018 or the Heat this year.

He was benched at one point by both kidd and Bud for not playing hard enough.

aII part of the growing process. khris has the uItimate oId man game so he has to give effort on defense. when he coasts he stands out Iike a sore thumb. he stiII batties it and aIways wiII to some degree in the reg season especiaIIy. but its no different than giannis being benched or even heId out for emotionai spaz sometimes even borderIne bitch moves. every guy has his warts. it doesnt change the impact if they can diaI it in when it matters

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Well, remember Sabonis was a key piece to bringing Paul George to OKC

Yep. And he would have made signing Ersan redundant back then.

nah... we woudIdnt have brook if wed signed him is the most Iikeiy. robin either for that matter. thon never improving brought them in thank god. not an impossibIe argiument to suggest drafting sabonis wouId have made us worse. Iove him but brook is the uItimate fit for our guy

[humanrefutation]

Middleton improved this year. He's not the reason we didn't go further. You can argue whether he's a max player - frankly, I'm fairly comfortable saying another team would have given him a max contract if we had let him test free agency. But I don't think he and Giannis do enough to elevate each other during the games. I think Giannis would benefit more from a guy like Lillard or Curry or prime Paul - guys who can take over a game and take the pressure off of Giannis to create. Khris just isn't that guy.

[Baddy Chuck]

I think Giannis would benefit more from a guy like Lillard or Curry or prime Paul - guys who can take over a game and take the pressure off of Giannis to create.

Maybe even LeBron James or Prime Michael Jordan.

[HKPackFan]

Honestly the biggest issue is probably one spectacularly awful personnel move after another during the Kidd era.

We spent years on here talking about it. Bud came and put plywood over the cracks in the hull, but the water finally poured in.

The draft was the area of failures

2014 - Jabari. Not a bad pick in context but we needed to deal him fall of 2016 when the Celtics were calling offering that pick and Crowder. In the 2nd round I wouldn't have expected them to find Jokic, but Inglis and JOB were washouts

2015 - Vaughn and dumping multiple pick for Greivis. Ugh

2016 - We could have Jamal Murray on this roster NOW, but Kidd played injured Middleton 43 minutes and Giannis 41 minutes to get that OT victory on the Sixers the last week of the year bumping us down to #10 slot. Then we compounded it by taking Thon over Sabonis. We did steal Brogdon in round two, but then lost him.

2017 - DJ Wilson. Terrible. Nothing great after us but good active bodies like OG, John Collins, Jarrett Allen and Kuzma

You just can't botch four straight draft years. Add in tying up your salary cap with the Henson extension, Monroe and Plumlee deals.

I almost threw up my breakfast after reading this.

It's so much awful and right now watching.... Jamal Murray

[humanrefutation]

I think Giannis would benefit more from a guy like Lillard or Curry or prime Paul - guys who can take over a game and take the pressure off of Giannis to create.

Maybe even LeBron James or Prime Michael Jordan.

Cute. I know those guys are damn good, but my point is more about their style of play.

Middleton is good, but he isn't the right kind of #2 to elevate Giannis's game or vice versa. Even if you believe Middleton is a top 15 guy - and that is debatable but not far off either way - Giannis needs a top 15-20 caliber teammate who can take the pressure off of him, run the offense and break down compact defenses. Middleton isn't that guy.

[Pachinko_]

Not sure I agree with every single thing but DD has some nice posts in this thread.

[Baddy Chuck]

I think Giannis would benefit more from a guy like Lillard or Curry or prime Paul - guys who can take over a game and take the pressure off of Giannis to create.

Maybe even LeBron James or Prime Michael Jordan.

Cute. I know those guys are damn good, but my point is more about their style of play.

Middleton is good, but he isn't the right kind of #2 to elevate Giannis's game or vice versa. Even if you believe Middleton is a top 15 guy - and that is debatable but not far off either way - Giannis needs a top 15-20 caliber teammate who can take the pressure off of him, run the offense and break down compact defenses. Middleton isn't that guy.

I suppose what I meant is that is there anyone disputing that a full blown superstar like the guys you listed wouldn't be better then Middleton?

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

I think Giannis would benefit more from a guy like Lillard or Curry or prime Paul - guys who can take over a game and take the pressure off of Giannis to create.

Maybe even LeBron James or Prime Michael Jordan.

Cute. I know those guys are damn good, but my point is more about their style of play.

Middleton is good, but he isn't the right kind of #2 to elevate Giannis's game or vice versa. Even if you believe Middleton is a top 15 guy - and that is debatable but not far off either way - Giannis needs a top 15-20 caliber teammate who can take the pressure off of him, run the offense and break down compact defenses. Middleton isn't that guy.

thats the whoIe point. your basicaIIy suggesting giannis is better suited to a #2 option. i dont disagree with you as it reIates to Piayoff basketbaII. i think its dead on point when you say hes a pippen and he needs his aIpha

[Fotis St]

Pippen himself said "Giannis is not like me ... I didn't win 2 times MVP" ...

[DingleJerry]

I wouldn't use the Pippen analogy in that it implies the other guy is the better overall player like MJ was over Pippen. Shaq or even Duncan would be better comps in that since they're bigs they needed their Kobe/Wade/Parker/Ginobili to handle ball handling, overall running of the O, and shot making at crunch time. Could even go to KAJ with Oscar/Magic. But they were still the better player.

Middleton is a good overall player and a general fit, but he doesn't have this lead ballhandler skill set.

[paulpressey25]

Middleton improved this year. He's not the reason we didn't go further. You can argue whether he's a max player - frankly, I'm fairly comfortable saying another team would have given him a max contract if we had let him test free agency. But I don't think he and Giannis do enough to elevate each other during the games. I think Giannis would benefit more from a guy like Lillard or Curry or prime Paul - guys who can take over a game and take the pressure off of Giannis to create. Khris just isn't that guy.

Agreed. And that’s why I wanted to pour that money into Brogdon and Bojan. Better to diversify the talent base and give salary cap flexibility than tie up a five year max deal in a guy who didn’t bring enough to be the needed #2 to Giannis.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

the Iast thing this team needs is Iess aIIstars and more diversity imo

[fan230]

We got unlucky with Jabari (mainly the 2 bad injuries). Also most people did not expect him to be so bad in defense and also having no interest in playing defense; maybe it was a scouting error of major proportions.

76 ers got lucky with Embiid. 2 years of injuries and not playing and then becoming an All Star.

If we had a 3rd star plus Giannis and Khris, the situation of our team would be so very much more positive.

[emunney]

Did the 6ers get lucky with Embiid? He was clearly the best prospect in that draft. I guess if anything, they were lucky he was injured so he slipped to #3.

[DavidDunn21]

Maybe even LeBron James or Prime Michael Jordan.

Cute. I know those guys are damn good, but my point is more about their style of play.

Middleton is good, but he isn't the right kind of #2 to elevate Giannis's game or vice versa. Even if you believe Middleton is a top 15 guy - and that is debatable but not far off either way - Giannis needs a top 15-20 caliber teammate who can take the pressure off of him, run the offense and break down compact defenses. Middleton isn't that guy.

I suppose what I meant is that is there anyone disputing that a full blown superstar like the guys you listed wouldn't be better then Middleton?

But it's not full blown superstar guys. Going into next year literally all those guys who people foolishly debated Khris was better or as good as have lapped Khris. Butler, Murray, Booker, Beal, Mitchell, Tatum, healthy Klay, etc. are all better and in most cases much better. Guys like CP3 and Lowry would've been far better for us this last two years but not necessarily moving forward.

We'll probably wait till the trade deadline and see if Beal is available for a King's Ransom, but short of that, we are now officially stuck (even if Giannis resigns) attempting to do the Dirk thing and put a one time collection of very good players together and hoping to catch a few breaks. Which is why Khris will finally be moved along with Bledsoe this year, I think. Middleton simply doesn't move the needle enough for that price, which you all know.

Or another way of looking at it: this year going into the playoffs, would you rather have Bledsoe and Khris or Smart and Brown? Middleton (might) be the best player of the four, but Bledsoe brings our chances of winning down so much and Smart is such a winner that it's a no-brainer, if not for 82 games, definitely for 16.

We need to accept Giannis' limitations, which includes his lack of a go-to shot and the dumb things he does playing from the Dark Side of the Force. When Giannis does dumb or un-clutch things, that would've been surmountable if Khris was a stone cold killer, but he's not. He's a loose handled over-qualified 6th man. So when Giannis does dumb things in big situations it affects the confidence of the team, but Big Balls Cassell isn't coming through that door. But as PP25 said, there are still scenarios where we can put together a Championship squad of one great player and a bunch of very good ones. Would've been nice to still have Brogdon, huh?

[Baddy Chuck]

But it's not full blown superstar guys. Going into next year literally all those guys who people foolishly debated Khris was better or as good as have lapped Khris. Butler, Murray, Booker, Beal, Mitchell, Tatum, healthy Klay, etc. are all better and in most cases much better. Guys like CP3 and Lowry would've been far better for us this last two years but not necessarily moving forward.

We'll probably wait till the trade deadline and see if Beal is available for a King's Ransom, but short of that, we are now officially stuck (even if Giannis resigns) attempting to do the Dirk thing and put a one time collection of very good players together and hoping to catch a few breaks. Which is why Khris will finally be moved along with Bledsoe this year, I think. Middleton simply doesn't move the needle enough for that price, which you all know.

Or another way of looking at it: this year going into the playoffs, would you rather have Bledsoe and Khris or Smart and Brown? Middleton (might) be the best player of the four, but Bledsoe brings our chances of winning down so much and Smart is such a winner that it's a no-brainer, if not for 82 games, definitely for 16.

We need to accept Giannis' limitations, which includes his lack of a go-to shot and the dumb things he does playing from the Dark Side of the Force. When Giannis does dumb or un-clutch things, that would've been surmountable if Khris was a stone cold killer, but he's not. He's a loose handled over-qualified 6th man. So when Giannis does dumb things in big situations it affects the confidence of the team, but Big Balls Cassell isn't coming through that door. But as PP25 said, there are still scenarios where we can put together a Championship squad of one great player and a bunch of very good ones. Would've been nice to still have Brogdon, huh?

Honestly I have no idea what you're trying to argue to me? I agree we should be targeting better players then the guys we have right now, as I've basically always been a fan of doing. I agree Bledsoe has been a huge negative and we need to move away from him. I've always agreed we should have kept Brogdon. Is the long drawn out argument here that Malcolm Brogdon and Bojan Bogdanovic instead of Middleton make us beat the Heat? Because I'd still argue against that.

My opinion would be that Middleton doesn't help Giannis really flourish into a better player, but I do think Giannis helps Middleton flourish into a better player. When Giannis gets going I think it opens a lot for Middleton and helps him be a much better player (like we saw in the regular season) to the point of being SIGNIFICANTLY better then a lot of options that are or were available. On the other hand I think "lesser" pieces that we hypothetically plug in to replace Khris not only also do not help Giannis flourish, they also really don't have the potential to flourish on their own. I mean we bring up Brogdon, he played a hell of a lot next to Giannis and I wouldn't say his game really brought anything out of Giannis or did Giannis really bring anything out of him at basically any point in his tenure. To me the "lesser pieces" theory always has way too many holes to have any evidence to support it's a much better route then what we have right now.

Getting a star would be great. Short of that it all rides on Giannis for better or worse. To me Khris is a great piece to have next to a Giannis that has things figured out (to go with that a team that has Giannis figured out), better then most other realistic options. If we can't figure out how to open up Giannis' potential with Khris I have a hard time believing that Bojan Bogdanovic and Malcolm Brogdon makes that difference. A guy like Jimmy Butler might have.