A super team has developed in our already competitive division, now what?

[Steelo Green]

Bro you’ve said this 100 times over and nobody agrees with you. Maybe it’s time to let go.

Lots have agreed (not that I care either way, again people really care about rgm clout lol).

Where is that winning culture right now?

No more title afterglow and Kyle aging, looks like we are just a 7-11 team.

You need great players to win, not a winning culture, who knew.

The same people quoting Atlanta 07-17 are a failure are the same ones who say we are a success.

If Atlanta had won a championship in that time you’d have a point. But they don’t so that’s why people don’t agree with you. Not because if realgm clout lol. At the end of the day that’s what it’s all about. Winning the final prize. Yet you think okc had it better with Durant even though they won nothing. If you ask any Atlanta or okc fan - “ hey what 7 year run do you prefer. Yours or the raptors?”. Most will say raptors. It’s like saying the Detroit pistons and the Indiana pacers in the early 2000s were similar. It’s ridiculous.

You say culture doesn’t matter? Every champion ever has had winning culture. Lakers last year had winning culture..aka lebron. Gsw have winning culture holding everyone accountable. Spurs had culture. You know who didn’t have winning culture? The okc thunder you love so much. Nobody put Westbrook in check and told him what he needed to do to win. But they sure had talent...congrats to them.

Only thing I agree on is you need mvp level talent to win it all.

We won a title on the biggest exception to the exception and now everyone has this hubris like everything around it including the Demar years were key.

They weren't, they literally meant nothing. We just got Kawhi for pennies on the dollar and he went back to MVP form.

People use these black and white images of what happened and post facto change of the guard because we won the title. Winning the title doesn't eliminate the no years of contending pre-Kawhi, it's called breaking the chain of causation. Now all of a sudden the Demar years were key?

Again - plenty of people agree with me, but that is irrelevant, I don't care to be liked or agreed with here, I go by what I see. Or do you want to go through all my posts of people agreeing / disagreeing like the people have done lately.

Lakers had a winning culture? No they had Lebron. Lebron is a contender wherever he goes. Come on. You can't compare our winning culture to Lebron.

GSW had superstars...
Spurs had superstars..
OKC had superstars...

What do we have right now?

Seriously, do we have a superstar, and were the Demar and Kyle years ever a contender? Answer is they never were and now Kawhi coming via trade made all those years worth it, and it's hilarious to see people changing their tune.

Kawhi didn't teach anyone anything it seems. People want to repeat the Demar years and sit and wonder when another Kawhi is on the table like that. Oh look Harden was dealt for 7 years of picks. Yeah, the Kawhi deal is definitely replicable

Honestly, people have distorted history to give Masai credit now and I can't stop laughing.

Tell me - what is your plan? Sit and keep winning culture to do what exactly? Trade 7 years of picks to get a Harden level player even though the team around it isn't good enough to compete?

Please - tell me your plan.

[planetmars]

the fact that some fans aren't even down with a ONE season tank is mindblowing.....can't even sacrifice one season for the greater good of the next 4-5 seasons

You’ve got people suggesting we trade Lowry, Norm, Siakam which would put us in sh*t tier for the next 5 years. Thats what I have a problem with. It’s a stupid idea.

I don't agree with the people that want to blow up the team for a full-on tank....I'm more on board with a mini-tank to add a top 5 pick to the core of FVV-Siakam-OG...that only requires trading Lowry.

It's not simple. You have to trade Lowry in such a way that we get some team's Patrick McCaw back. And ideally no center so that we continue to stick with Baynes/Len. I do think you would need to probably trade Boucher and one of Siakam/Fred as well.

Big drop off from bottom 5 team to bottom 14 team. Losing Lowry gets you out of the playoffs but not Minnesota/Sacramento/Detroit/Washington bad.

[Steelo Green]

NBA finals MVP? That's such a dumb trophy. It's at most a 7 game sample and usually less. Also how many of those picks were drafted by their team since the new CBA was developed (the one with max 5 year contracts so 2011)?

2020 Lebron - nope
2019 Kawhi - nope
2018 Durant - nope
2017 Durant - nope
2016 James - nope
2015 Iggy - nope
2014 Leonard - yup
2013 James - nope
2012 James - nope
2011 Dirk - yup

2 out 10.. that's a 20% success rate. Pretty crappy odds. And the Dirk one doesn't technically count since the CBA came in during the 2011-2012 season.. so really 1 out of 9.

I'll take Tolzman's pick at 15 and enjoy a bit of the playoffs as well.

lmao, you mock a seven game sample as insignificant but then proceed to give a 10 year sample as if that's any better if you want a real sample you should at least go for 30-40......oh wait, that would go into jordan/duncan championships..which doesn't help your narrative

I went back that far because the point I'm making should be clear. I mean the CBA and player empowerment has changed the NBA landscape incredibly since 2011. You have to see that right?

Davis, Harden, Durant, Lebron, Butler, George (am I missing someone) all left and didn't win a chip with the team that drafted them (Lebron is a weird case, because he came back but that's rare/odd). So the teams that drafted them didn't get that FMP or MVP or best PER in a season, or whatever stat/trophy you want to use.

There will be exceptions like Kawhi and GIannis getting picked at 15 are exceptions. Curry and Dame stayed. Beal wants to stay. Hopefully Giannis and Murray continue to stay. But again these are not the norm.. they are the exception. Just like getting a stud in the 15th pick is an exception, not the norm.

If Doncic, Trae, Tatum, Giannis, Zion win a chip.. I doubt it will be with the team that drafted them. Probably a better chance it won't happen. So you draft a stud.. you better hope and pray they will stay. Or else the tank was for nothing.

History is long in the NBA but circumstances have changed a lot since MJ, Kobe or even Duncan were winning chips.

Oh and what about the history since forever of lottery picks leading teams to titles?

Other than Kawhi it has never happened but hey, it happened to our team, we can do it!

Harden got traded for 7 picks to a team with KD and Kyrie, Kawhi for 1, Demar and Jak, but hey, we can do it again

[SFour]

You’ve got people suggesting we trade Lowry, Norm, Siakam which would put us in sh*t tier for the next 5 years. Thats what I have a problem with. It’s a stupid idea.

I don't agree with the people that want to blow up the team for a full-on tank....I'm more on board with a mini-tank to add a top 5 pick to the core of FVV-Siakam-OG...that only requires trading Lowry.

It's not simple. You have to trade Lowry in such a way that we get some team's Patrick McCaw back. And ideally no center so that we continue to stick with Baynes/Len. I do think you would need to probably trade Boucher and one of Siakam/Fred as well.

Big drop off from bottom 5 team to bottom 14 team. Losing Lowry gets you out of the playoffs but not Minnesota/Sacramento/Detroit/Washington bad.

Lowry for Thybulle, Maxey, filler + picks........no center in that trade, no big name player...a couple young prospects. I think that type of trade will get the job done

[Marty_Budda]

Lots have agreed (not that I care either way, again people really care about rgm clout lol).

Where is that winning culture right now?

No more title afterglow and Kyle aging, looks like we are just a 7-11 team.

You need great players to win, not a winning culture, who knew.

The same people quoting Atlanta 07-17 are a failure are the same ones who say we are a success.

If Atlanta had won a championship in that time you’d have a point. But they don’t so that’s why people don’t agree with you. Not because if realgm clout lol. At the end of the day that’s what it’s all about. Winning the final prize. Yet you think okc had it better with Durant even though they won nothing. If you ask any Atlanta or okc fan - “ hey what 7 year run do you prefer. Yours or the raptors?”. Most will say raptors. It’s like saying the Detroit pistons and the Indiana pacers in the early 2000s were similar. It’s ridiculous.

You say culture doesn’t matter? Every champion ever has had winning culture. Lakers last year had winning culture..aka lebron. Gsw have winning culture holding everyone accountable. Spurs had culture. You know who didn’t have winning culture? The okc thunder you love so much. Nobody put Westbrook in check and told him what he needed to do to win. But they sure had talent...congrats to them.

Only thing I agree on is you need mvp level talent to win it all.

We won a title on the biggest exception to the exception and now everyone has this hubris like everything around it including the Demar years were key.

They weren't, they literally meant nothing. We just got Kawhi for pennies on the dollar and he went back to MVP form.

People use these black and white images of what happened and post facto change of the guard because we won the title. Winning the title doesn't eliminate the no years of contending pre-Kawhi, it's called breaking the chain of causation. Now all of a sudden the Demar years were key?

Again - plenty of people agree with me, but that is irrelevant, I don't care to be liked or agreed with here, I go by what I see. Or do you want to go through all my posts of people agreeing / disagreeing like the people have done lately.

Lakers had a winning culture? No they had Lebron. Lebron is a contender wherever he goes. Come on. You can't compare our winning culture to Lebron.

GSW had superstars...
Spurs had superstars..
OKC had superstars...

What do we have right now?

Seriously, do we have a superstar, and were the Demar and Kyle years ever a contender? Answer is they never were and now Kawhi coming via trade made all those years worth it, and it's hilarious to see people changing their tune.

Kawhi didn't teach anyone anything it seems. People want to repeat the Demar years and sit and wonder when another Kawhi is on the table like that. Oh look Harden was dealt for 7 years of picks. Yeah, the Kawhi deal is definitely replicable

Honestly, people have distorted history to give Masai credit now and I can't stop laughing.

Tell me - what is your plan? Sit and keep winning culture to do what exactly? Trade 7 years of picks to get a Harden level player even though the team around it isn't good enough to compete?

Please - tell me your plan.

You say the demar years didn’t matter and then you talk about how we got Kawhi out of it and won a title. If we didn’t have a winning culture, development system we never would have been in a position to trade for Kawhi.

If we had that team we had in 2018 now, yes you trade for harden. You offer demar and like 4 first round picks and the rockets take it. Then you have a team of:

Lowry
Harden
OG
Siakam
JV -> flipped to gasol

With Fred and ibaka still on the bench.

That teams wins the title.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that Masai built the perfect team and culture where you could insert a superstar and be automatic title favorites.

My plan for the future? Same thing. Be competitive, develop assets, win games and 3 years from now when there’s a disgruntled superstar and we have a team stacked with high end role players and maybe 1 or 2 all stars - trade siakam for said superstar (unless he’s become one himself).

[LastNameEver]

If you’re gonna tank you gotta trade FVV

[Steelo Green]

If Atlanta had won a championship in that time you’d have a point. But they don’t so that’s why people don’t agree with you. Not because if realgm clout lol. At the end of the day that’s what it’s all about. Winning the final prize. Yet you think okc had it better with Durant even though they won nothing. If you ask any Atlanta or okc fan - “ hey what 7 year run do you prefer. Yours or the raptors?”. Most will say raptors. It’s like saying the Detroit pistons and the Indiana pacers in the early 2000s were similar. It’s ridiculous.

You say culture doesn’t matter? Every champion ever has had winning culture. Lakers last year had winning culture..aka lebron. Gsw have winning culture holding everyone accountable. Spurs had culture. You know who didn’t have winning culture? The okc thunder you love so much. Nobody put Westbrook in check and told him what he needed to do to win. But they sure had talent...congrats to them.

Only thing I agree on is you need mvp level talent to win it all.

We won a title on the biggest exception to the exception and now everyone has this hubris like everything around it including the Demar years were key.

They weren't, they literally meant nothing. We just got Kawhi for pennies on the dollar and he went back to MVP form.

People use these black and white images of what happened and post facto change of the guard because we won the title. Winning the title doesn't eliminate the no years of contending pre-Kawhi, it's called breaking the chain of causation. Now all of a sudden the Demar years were key?

Again - plenty of people agree with me, but that is irrelevant, I don't care to be liked or agreed with here, I go by what I see. Or do you want to go through all my posts of people agreeing / disagreeing like the people have done lately.

Lakers had a winning culture? No they had Lebron. Lebron is a contender wherever he goes. Come on. You can't compare our winning culture to Lebron.

GSW had superstars...
Spurs had superstars..
OKC had superstars...

What do we have right now?

Seriously, do we have a superstar, and were the Demar and Kyle years ever a contender? Answer is they never were and now Kawhi coming via trade made all those years worth it, and it's hilarious to see people changing their tune.

Kawhi didn't teach anyone anything it seems. People want to repeat the Demar years and sit and wonder when another Kawhi is on the table like that. Oh look Harden was dealt for 7 years of picks. Yeah, the Kawhi deal is definitely replicable

Honestly, people have distorted history to give Masai credit now and I can't stop laughing.

Tell me - what is your plan? Sit and keep winning culture to do what exactly? Trade 7 years of picks to get a Harden level player even though the team around it isn't good enough to compete?

Please - tell me your plan.

You say the demar years didn’t matter and then you talk about how we got Kawhi out of it and won a title. If we didn’t have a winning culture, development system we never would have been in a position to trade for Kawhi.

If we had that team we had in 2018 now, yes you trade for harden. You offer demar and like 4 first round picks and the rockets take it. Then you have a team of:

Lowry
Harden
OG
Siakam
JV -> flipped to gasol

With Fred and ibaka still on the bench.

That teams wins the title.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that Masai built the perfect team and culture where you could insert a superstar and be automatic title favorites.

My plan for the future? Same thing. Be competitive, develop assets, win games and 3 years from now when there’s a disgruntled superstar and we have a team stacked with high end role players and maybe 1 or 2 all stars - trade siakam (unless he’s become one himself).

You think Harden wins us a title

See this is just homerism at its finest.

We don't win a title and then we are out of all our first rounders with a mediocre group.

The 7-11 plan of developing middling assets is being overrated because of one trade that will never happen again.

Where is the winning culture now that Kyle is aging with our 2-8? Or is it only important when we did solid last year?

If we are fully healthy and miss the playoffs, the winning culture meant nothing with last year being a one year afterglow with Kyle still playing at an all-star level, similar to the Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis team who after winning 50+ were in the lottery the next year, and that was with Allen in his prime.

[planetmars]

I don't agree with the people that want to blow up the team for a full-on tank....I'm more on board with a mini-tank to add a top 5 pick to the core of FVV-Siakam-OG...that only requires trading Lowry.

It's not simple. You have to trade Lowry in such a way that we get some team's Patrick McCaw back. And ideally no center so that we continue to stick with Baynes/Len. I do think you would need to probably trade Boucher and one of Siakam/Fred as well.

Big drop off from bottom 5 team to bottom 14 team. Losing Lowry gets you out of the playoffs but not Minnesota/Sacramento/Detroit/Washington bad.

Lowry for Thybulle, Maxey, filler + picks........no center in that trade, no big name player...a couple young prospects. I think that type of trade will get the job done

Lowry makes $30M.. Thybulle and Maxey make about $-34M total. What's the filler? I think if it's Harris he helps us not hurts us.

[Marty_Budda]

We won a title on the biggest exception to the exception and now everyone has this hubris like everything around it including the Demar years were key.

They weren't, they literally meant nothing. We just got Kawhi for pennies on the dollar and he went back to MVP form.

People use these black and white images of what happened and post facto change of the guard because we won the title. Winning the title doesn't eliminate the no years of contending pre-Kawhi, it's called breaking the chain of causation. Now all of a sudden the Demar years were key?

Again - plenty of people agree with me, but that is irrelevant, I don't care to be liked or agreed with here, I go by what I see. Or do you want to go through all my posts of people agreeing / disagreeing like the people have done lately.

Lakers had a winning culture? No they had Lebron. Lebron is a contender wherever he goes. Come on. You can't compare our winning culture to Lebron.

GSW had superstars...
Spurs had superstars..
OKC had superstars...

What do we have right now?

Seriously, do we have a superstar, and were the Demar and Kyle years ever a contender? Answer is they never were and now Kawhi coming via trade made all those years worth it, and it's hilarious to see people changing their tune.

Kawhi didn't teach anyone anything it seems. People want to repeat the Demar years and sit and wonder when another Kawhi is on the table like that. Oh look Harden was dealt for 7 years of picks. Yeah, the Kawhi deal is definitely replicable

Honestly, people have distorted history to give Masai credit now and I can't stop laughing.

Tell me - what is your plan? Sit and keep winning culture to do what exactly? Trade 7 years of picks to get a Harden level player even though the team around it isn't good enough to compete?

Please - tell me your plan.

You say the demar years didn’t matter and then you talk about how we got Kawhi out of it and won a title. If we didn’t have a winning culture, development system we never would have been in a position to trade for Kawhi.

If we had that team we had in 2018 now, yes you trade for harden. You offer demar and like 4 first round picks and the rockets take it. Then you have a team of:

Lowry
Harden
OG
Siakam
JV -> flipped to gasol

With Fred and ibaka still on the bench.

That teams wins the title.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that Masai built the perfect team and culture where you could insert a superstar and be automatic title favorites.

My plan for the future? Same thing. Be competitive, develop assets, win games and 3 years from now when there’s a disgruntled superstar and we have a team stacked with high end role players and maybe 1 or 2 all stars - trade siakam (unless he’s become one himself).

You think Harden wins us a title

See this is just homerism at its finest.

We don't win a title and then we are out of all our first rounders with a mediocre group.

The 7-11 plan of developing middling assets is being overrated because of one trade that will never happen again.

Where is the winning culture now that Kyle is aging with our 2-8? Or is it only important when we did solid last year?

If we are fully healthy and miss the playoffs, the winning culture meant nothing with last year being a one year afterglow with Kyle still playing at an all-star level, similar to the Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis team who after winning 50+ were in the lottery the next year, and that was with Allen in his prime.

If you don’t think a 2018 Lowry, gasol, siakam, ibaka with harden are serious title contenders there’s no hope for you. Dude took 2017 gsw to 7 games with an inferior roster. There was no team in 2019 as good as that 2017 gsw team.

Let me ask you something? Did you think we would win the title the summer we acquired Kawhi? My guess is no but I could be wrong. You probably didn’t even think he’d show up in Toronto lol.

[SFour]

It's not simple. You have to trade Lowry in such a way that we get some team's Patrick McCaw back. And ideally no center so that we continue to stick with Baynes/Len. I do think you would need to probably trade Boucher and one of Siakam/Fred as well.

Big drop off from bottom 5 team to bottom 14 team. Losing Lowry gets you out of the playoffs but not Minnesota/Sacramento/Detroit/Washington bad.

Lowry for Thybulle, Maxey, filler + picks........no center in that trade, no big name player...a couple young prospects. I think that type of trade will get the job done

Lowry makes $30M.. Thybulle and Maxey make about $-34M total. What's the filler? I think if it's Harris he helps us not hurts us.

Filler is likely Danny Green, Mike Scott...and Sixers have a $8.2m trade exception they would use.

[Kingsway_fan]

I actually like watching this team now that Boucher is starting... they are way better than their record. The fact that we have a chance for a high frp this year... and the potential to flip Lowry and Norm at trade deadline hopefully for picks, will set us beautifully for next year and beyond... hopefully masai plays it brilliantly and gets great value at trade deadline.

This plus a chance at getting a great piece through free agency this offseason, and we will be younger, way more athletic and talented...

This could be the quickest rebuild in years by anyone not from LA...

Hope so.

[planetmars]

lmao, you mock a seven game sample as insignificant but then proceed to give a 10 year sample as if that's any better if you want a real sample you should at least go for 30-40......oh wait, that would go into jordan/duncan championships..which doesn't help your narrative

I went back that far because the point I'm making should be clear. I mean the CBA and player empowerment has changed the NBA landscape incredibly since 2011. You have to see that right?

Davis, Harden, Durant, Lebron, Butler, George (am I missing someone) all left and didn't win a chip with the team that drafted them (Lebron is a weird case, because he came back but that's rare/odd). So the teams that drafted them didn't get that FMP or MVP or best PER in a season, or whatever stat/trophy you want to use.

There will be exceptions like Kawhi and GIannis getting picked at 15 are exceptions. Curry and Dame stayed. Beal wants to stay. Hopefully Giannis and Murray continue to stay. But again these are not the norm.. they are the exception. Just like getting a stud in the 15th pick is an exception, not the norm.

If Doncic, Trae, Tatum, Giannis, Zion win a chip.. I doubt it will be with the team that drafted them. Probably a better chance it won't happen. So you draft a stud.. you better hope and pray they will stay. Or else the tank was for nothing.

History is long in the NBA but circumstances have changed a lot since MJ, Kobe or even Duncan were winning chips.

Oh and what about the history since forever of lottery picks leading teams to titles?

Other than Kawhi it has never happened but hey, it happened to our team, we can do it!

Harden got traded for 7 picks to a team with KD and Kyrie, Kawhi for 1, Demar and Jak, but hey, we can do it again

Again check out the CBA changes in 2011.. and also "The Decision". Guys aren't sticking around anymore.

Yeah so we accumulate 7 picks and use that to get the next Harden. In the meantime continue to try winning so the next Harden would want to join that winning team.

We're obviously not there yet.. could take 2,3,4,5 years.. but it'll happen. Just need patience. Just like tanking does.. but the advantage to winning is you know winning.

[planetmars]

Lowry for Thybulle, Maxey, filler + picks........no center in that trade, no big name player...a couple young prospects. I think that type of trade will get the job done

Lowry makes $30M.. Thybulle and Maxey make about $-34M total. What's the filler? I think if it's Harris he helps us not hurts us.

Filler is likely Danny Green, Mike Scott...and Sixers have a $8.2m trade exception they would use.

You can't split the TPE like that. Can be used to absorb one or more players. But can't be used in combination with players to take one a player.

4 for 1 is tough when we have all 15 roster spots taken care of.. we'd have to cut 3 players. I don't think Masai will do that, just to get a guy like Thybulle or Maxey on this team. But if this was done.. we're probably still okay enough to get the 9th or 10th pick in the draft. Not the 4th or 5th IMO.

[Los Manos]

The Raptors need to execute a 2 year rebuild right now. This years draft is strong but next year also has potential generational talent. We need two lottery bound seasons to restock our talent and let the big guns in each conference battle it out. The timeline is perfect for management with us playing in a different city & without fans, the fanbase accept this squad is not winning anything this year. Get back to Toronto in October 2021 with multiple picks including a top 5 talent and pursue a year of development. Trade assets for picks if there is even a sniff of overachieving during that season and project to get back to being an above .500 playoff team in 2022/23.

[2019nbachamps]

We should tank. No point trying to do the impossible which is compete when there are so many way better teams than us. Trade Lowry and Norm for assets, try to find a star in the draft, use cap space wisely, and try to build skillset of existing talent. Come back in 2-3 years and try to compete. Siakam, OG, and FVV are still young so if we keep them around we will still have them in their prime 3 years from now.

[casual_raps_fan]

The Raptors need to execute a 2 year rebuild right now. This years draft is strong but next year also has potential generational talent. We need two lottery bound seasons to restock our talent and let the big guns in each conference battle it out. The timeline is perfect for management with us playing in a different city & without fans, the fanbase accept this squad is not winning anything this year. Get back to Toronto in October 2021 with multiple picks including a top 5 talent and pursue a year of development. Trade assets for picks if there is even a sniff of overachieving during that season and project to get back to being an above .500 playoff team in 2022/23.

Yeah. I think this makes the most sense to ensure we get the required talent to build a future contender. We might even need 3 years depending on how this upcoming draft goes for us.

The question is, after we ship out Lowry (and Norm if he has any value), do we move one of Siakam or Fred as well?

[rocky_da_best]

Agree about sample size but to be fair. the landscape of the NBA has changed in those last 10 years. It isn't really sexy anymore for a guy to stay on one team for his entire career. And not a lot of stars want to do things on their own like a Dame or giving credit where it's due, Giannis.

What's not sexy is playing for a small market or unpopular team like ours. Our best bet is basically accumulating assets through the drafts and hoping for a Dame/Giannis situation or a Kawhi rental one. The easiest and most likely (though not certain) way to do that is by tanking. The biggest thing against tanking is the optics, but our season is already lost and there are no fans in the arenas anyway.

I mean, ok. I never said I was anti-tank I was just pointing out that the guy did have a point about guys switching teams lol

[DelAbbot]

I’m not down for tanking at all. We won a Championship without tanking. There are other ways to win in this league with good quality GM work.

You are fooling yourself. How do you think we got that Championship roster? Lottery picks from pre-Masai years of "unintentional" tanking.

[DelAbbot]

The Raptors need to execute a 2 year rebuild right now. This years draft is strong but next year also has potential generational talent. We need two lottery bound seasons to restock our talent and let the big guns in each conference battle it out. The timeline is perfect for management with us playing in a different city & without fans, the fanbase accept this squad is not winning anything this year. Get back to Toronto in October 2021 with multiple picks including a top 5 talent and pursue a year of development. Trade assets for picks if there is even a sniff of overachieving during that season and project to get back to being an above .500 playoff team in 2022/23.

I'm all for tanking but we have too much young talent in FVV/Siakam/OG/Flynn to be tanking 2 years in a row.

I wouldn't be surprised after we trade Lowry and get rid of the 2 midget PG lineup, we start winning and messing up tanking even this year.

[bape_lovers]

Huh why?

please please please tank and dump bumvleet...fingers crossed.