Luka Doncic has officially entered the MVP race

[urgal]

28 and 11 are not MVP level stats, in today's NBA with scoring inflation that is all-star, all-NBA caliber, but not MVP level. If Luka is as good offensively in scoring rebounding and playmaking most key at the MVP level as Mavs fans say he is, then with 'Very good' defense his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates.

Well it's funny how 28/11/2 aren't MVP stats when Harden that year won the MVP with pretty similar stats (30/8/5).
Once again, you sound like the kind of guy who forgot that basketball is a team sport, and only looks at basketball-reference and not actual games. Have fun.

I would say a user named "BrooklynDynasty" with a profile picture of KD, Kyrie and Harden sounds more like a guy that decided to get into basketball last week and chose to hop on a bandwagon.

That would explain his takes, too.

[TheBonzaiEffect]

Anyway back on topic....

Is Luka an MVP candidate? I guess for me that's a matter of how loosely one defines candidate. Another poster pointed out Embiid and Lebron should be considered favorites at the moment and I would agree with that. Giannis has playoff baggage now and he's not having the season he had last year, but the Bucks are first in the East. Jokic is suffering like Luka with mediocre team results, but he's been amazing. KD, same as Jokic/Luka, but coming off that injury the narrative really helps him--though adding Harden will probably off-set that. PG is a punching bag, but the Clippers are good and he's been absurd. Kawhi obviously. Curry has team issue atm.

So right now the field is probably 10 deep or near as. Luka belongs in that mix for sure. But among the favorites based on this first stretch of the season? No, I can't make a compelling case for that.

LBJ and Embiid certainly have the combo of stats and record (though LBJ's stats aren't anything special right now), but I don't see how Luka/Jokic aren't clearly right behind them, given the stats coupled with carry jobs they have to do (KD would be in that tier, but with Harden that will change). Some combo of LBJ, Embiid, Jokic, and Luka is easily the top 4 IMO.

[Some smartguy]

Anyway back on topic....

Is Luka an MVP candidate? I guess for me that's a matter of how loosely one defines candidate. Another poster pointed out Embiid and Lebron should be considered favorites at the moment and I would agree with that. Giannis has playoff baggage now and he's not having the season he had last year, but the Bucks are first in the East. Jokic is suffering like Luka with mediocre team results, but he's been amazing. KD, same as Jokic/Luka, but coming off that injury the narrative really helps him--though adding Harden will probably off-set that. PG is a punching bag, but the Clippers are good and he's been absurd. Kawhi obviously. Curry has team issue atm.

So right now the field is probably 10 deep or near as. Luka belongs in that mix for sure. But among the favorites based on this first stretch of the season? No, I can't make a compelling case for that.

LBJ and Embiid certainly have the combo of stats and record (though LBJ's stats aren't anything special right now), but I don't see how Luka/Jokic aren't clearly right behind them, given the stats coupled with carry jobs they have to do (KD would be in that tier, but with Harden that will change). Some combo of LBJ, Embiid, Jokic, and Luka is easily the top 4 IMO.

Agreed. IMO it's LBJ, Embiid, Luka, Jokic. I think Luka will win it, but as of right now, those are my rankings. KD/Giannis/PG/Curry next tier behind that.

[Texas Chuck]

Anyway back on topic....

Is Luka an MVP candidate? I guess for me that's a matter of how loosely one defines candidate. Another poster pointed out Embiid and Lebron should be considered favorites at the moment and I would agree with that. Giannis has playoff baggage now and he's not having the season he had last year, but the Bucks are first in the East. Jokic is suffering like Luka with mediocre team results, but he's been amazing. KD, same as Jokic/Luka, but coming off that injury the narrative really helps him--though adding Harden will probably off-set that. PG is a punching bag, but the Clippers are good and he's been absurd. Kawhi obviously. Curry has team issue atm.

So right now the field is probably 10 deep or near as. Luka belongs in that mix for sure. But among the favorites based on this first stretch of the season? No, I can't make a compelling case for that.

LBJ and Embiid certainly have the combo of stats and record (though LBJ's stats aren't anything special right now), but I don't see how Luka/Jokic aren't clearly right behind them, given the stats coupled with carry jobs they have to do (KD would be in that tier, but with Harden that will change). Some combo of LBJ, Embiid, Jokic, and Luka is easily the top 4 IMO.

Historically outside the Westbrook year, team success has been a requirement to win MVP. If your team doesn't finish in the top 3 in your conference you don't win MVP. That's why I would include some players above Luka at the moment despite him having to do more with less.

Now if we want to have a philosophical discussion about why that's a bad way of picking MVP's I'm open to it. I definitely think its possible to be the most valuable player in the league on a non-elite team. But just going by precedence Luka is not a current standout candidate due to the Mavs' record. If they can go on a run here with KP rounding back into form and getting all the missing rotation guys back over the next week or so that can change quickly.

He's absolutely an MVP-caliber player without any question, particularly with this level of commitment to defense which we had not consistently seen prior to the bubble. This guy who isn't caught ball-watching, who can't be targeted, and who is causing issues off-ball consistently completely changes one of the narratives used against him.

[cupcakesnake]

28 and 11 are not MVP level stats, in today's NBA with scoring inflation that is all-star, all-NBA caliber, but not MVP level. If Luka is as good offensively in scoring rebounding and playmaking most key at the MVP level as Mavs fans say he is, then with 'Very good' defense his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates.

So now that we're determining MVP by points and rebounds only! Last 10 MVPS points and rebounds:
Giannis: 29 and 13
Giannis: 27 and 12
Harden: 30 and 5
Russ: 30 and 10
Curry: 30 and 5
Curry: 24 and 4
Durant: 32 and 7
Lebron: 27 and 8
Lebron: 27 and 8
Rose: 25 and 4

Luka's numbers have him firmly in the MVP conversation:
#1 in points
#2 in assists
#12 in rebounds
#3 in VORP (bballref)
#3 in BPM (bballref)
#6 in PER
#3 EPM
#7 in RAPTOR (fivethirtyeight)

There's no real argument to make against Luka's numbers being MVP level. If the Mavs are a strong playoff seed by the end of the season, Luka will be a top 5 MVP vote getter.

[Hello Brooklyn]

I did and you didn't. But I appreciate you now clarifying what you meant to say.

And that's an odd thing to focus on since literally nobody is selling Luka Doncic, good 3-pt shooter. It's well established he isn't remotely that.

LOL I love how you're telling me what I was referring to. He said Doncic was the best player in the NBA and an elite 38% point shooter for a 6 game stretch.

And I responded by saying lets see him do it for a full season.

I obviously was not talking about his raw numbers overall, which he did just last year. But ok.

Of course I'm going to focus on it, if people are claiming that hes the best player in the NBA and shooting is a premium. You can't be a top 5 player in the NBA today without being a good shooter, possible exception Giannis whos also the DPOY.

Not to mention that Luka is still a bad defender.

Can you stop lying? For just 5 minutes, maybe?

A. I never said Luka was the best player in the NBA. I said over the past 6 games he has been. You still haven't refuted that.

B. I never said he was elite three-point shooter. I said he is shooting 38% (on large volume) over the past 6. That's a fact.

C. You said he is "worse than last year," even though his BPM is better, defensive numbers are better, and he's clearly on an upward trajectory.

D. You can be, because Luka is. He's top 5 in VORP and BPM. He's also posting elite midrange shooting numbers, btw. 46% on 10-16 and 77% on long twos.

Hilarious that you're accusing me of "lying" when you can't even seem to understand what I wrote.

I said "meanwhile hes still a terrible 3 point shooter, and looks even worse than last year. "

Clearly I was talking about his 3 point shooting looking worse, not his overall play. Why else would I include the world "meanwhile"?

Not that hard to follow along

[TheBonzaiEffect]

LOL I love how you're telling me what I was referring to. He said Doncic was the best player in the NBA and an elite 38% point shooter for a 6 game stretch.

And I responded by saying lets see him do it for a full season.

I obviously was not talking about his raw numbers overall, which he did just last year. But ok.

Of course I'm going to focus on it, if people are claiming that hes the best player in the NBA and shooting is a premium. You can't be a top 5 player in the NBA today without being a good shooter, possible exception Giannis whos also the DPOY.

Not to mention that Luka is still a bad defender.

Can you stop lying? For just 5 minutes, maybe?

A. I never said Luka was the best player in the NBA. I said over the past 6 games he has been. You still haven't refuted that.

B. I never said he was elite three-point shooter. I said he is shooting 38% (on large volume) over the past 6. That's a fact.

C. You said he is "worse than last year," even though his BPM is better, defensive numbers are better, and he's clearly on an upward trajectory.

D. You can be, because Luka is. He's top 5 in VORP and BPM. He's also posting elite midrange shooting numbers, btw. 46% on 10-16 and 77% on long twos.

Hilarious that you're accusing me of "lying" when you can't even seem to understand what I wrote.

I said "meanwhile hes still a terrible 3 point shooter, and looks even worse than last year. "

Clearly I was talking about his 3 point shooting looking worse, not his overall play. Why else would I include the world "meanwhile"?

Not that hard to follow along

You might want to brush up on your grammar and synthax. Your comma and wording implies a separate thought. It doesn't make sense to say he's still a terrible three point shooter AND even worse than last year.

Glad you chose to ignore the other points, though.

[GeorgeGervin]

LOL I love how you're telling me what I was referring to. He said Doncic was the best player in the NBA and an elite 38% point shooter for a 6 game stretch.

And I responded by saying lets see him do it for a full season.

I obviously was not talking about his raw numbers overall, which he did just last year. But ok.

Of course I'm going to focus on it, if people are claiming that hes the best player in the NBA and shooting is a premium. You can't be a top 5 player in the NBA today without being a good shooter, possible exception Giannis whos also the DPOY.

Not to mention that Luka is still a bad defender.

Can you stop lying? For just 5 minutes, maybe?

A. I never said Luka was the best player in the NBA. I said over the past 6 games he has been. You still haven't refuted that.

B. I never said he was elite three-point shooter. I said he is shooting 38% (on large volume) over the past 6. That's a fact.

C. You said he is "worse than last year," even though his BPM is better, defensive numbers are better, and he's clearly on an upward trajectory.

D. You can be, because Luka is. He's top 5 in VORP and BPM. He's also posting elite midrange shooting numbers, btw. 46% on 10-16 and 77% on long twos.

Hilarious that you're accusing me of "lying" when you can't even seem to understand what I wrote.

I said "meanwhile hes still a terrible 3 point shooter, and looks even worse than last year. "

Clearly I was talking about his 3 point shooting looking worse, not his overall play. Why else would I include the world "meanwhile"?

Not that hard to follow along

I don't know about Luka being a terrible 3 point shooter. I mean this year he's shooting 29% which is horrible but he obviously was in slump (in every aspect of his game) for the first 5 or 6 games, he was simply not looking like himself.
The past 6 games he's been shooting 38% which is above average. And if you pay attention to the game his % is hurt by how many late shot clock 3s he takes because he is the only one able to create his own shot in this team.
He also has a pretty bad shot selection at times, he could defenitely improve that.

Not saying he's a great 3pt shooter but he's clearly better than what it looks like.

[Archx]

28 and 11 are not MVP level stats, in today's NBA with scoring inflation that is all-star, all-NBA caliber, but not MVP level. If Luka is as good offensively in scoring rebounding and playmaking most key at the MVP level as Mavs fans say he is, then with 'Very good' defense his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates.

Are you serious? He's 4th in PPG 2nd in ASTPG and 13th RPG. He's the only guy averaging those numbers. Jokic is close but still 3ppg and 2rpg short of him.

Luka is averaging this month 31/13/11/1.4 steals on 48%FG and 37% from 3pt range. ---> 5 W 2 L

"his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates"

Sure, because he's a copy of an 27yo (in his prime) LBJ right now, right?

Well if you want to be precise Jokic is 3ppg short of Luka, but 1rpg, 1ast, 0.7stl, ahead of him. Jokic is also shooting 10% better from the field, 10% better for 3 and 10% from free throw line.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/avgAssists/dir/desc
Jokic is also first in OWS, WS, BPM, VORP 2nd in WS/48, OBPM, DBPM
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws_per_48
First in RAPTOR and WAR
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whos-making-a-splash-so-far-in-our-nba-player-ratings/
And first in TPA.
But Luka is having a great season too.

Yeah i know... but what has Jokic to do with any of this though? He was talking about Doncic.

[Some smartguy]

Are you serious? He's 4th in PPG 2nd in ASTPG and 13th RPG. He's the only guy averaging those numbers. Jokic is close but still 3ppg and 2rpg short of him.

Luka is averaging this month 31/13/11/1.4 steals on 48%FG and 37% from 3pt range. ---> 5 W 2 L

"his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates"

Sure, because he's a copy of an 27yo (in his prime) LBJ right now, right?

Well if you want to be precise Jokic is 3ppg short of Luka, but 1rpg, 1ast, 0.7stl, ahead of him. Jokic is also shooting 10% better from the field, 10% better for 3 and 10% from free throw line.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/avgAssists/dir/desc
Jokic is also first in OWS, WS, BPM, VORP 2nd in WS/48, OBPM, DBPM
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws_per_48
First in RAPTOR and WAR
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whos-making-a-splash-so-far-in-our-nba-player-ratings/
And first in TPA.
But Luka is having a great season too.

Yeah i know... but what has Jokic to do with any of this though? He was talking about Doncic.

I'm not even a part of this, but come on...

[Archx]

Well if you want to be precise Jokic is 3ppg short of Luka, but 1rpg, 1ast, 0.7stl, ahead of him. Jokic is also shooting 10% better from the field, 10% better for 3 and 10% from free throw line.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/avgAssists/dir/desc
Jokic is also first in OWS, WS, BPM, VORP 2nd in WS/48, OBPM, DBPM
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws_per_48
First in RAPTOR and WAR
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whos-making-a-splash-so-far-in-our-nba-player-ratings/
And first in TPA.
But Luka is having a great season too.

Yeah i know... but what has Jokic to do with any of this though? He was talking about Doncic.

I'm not even a part of this, but come on...

Come on, what?

I was talking about raw numbers since Jokic is doing amazing but i could have also mentioned any other player. I wasn't comparing how their season is going or advance stats... I wasn't even comparing their direct MVP "competition". So again, what am i missing here?

[BelgradeNugget]

Are you serious? He's 4th in PPG 2nd in ASTPG and 13th RPG. He's the only guy averaging those numbers. Jokic is close but still 3ppg and 2rpg short of him.

Luka is averaging this month 31/13/11/1.4 steals on 48%FG and 37% from 3pt range. ---> 5 W 2 L

"his team should be near the top of the pack regardless of teammates"

Sure, because he's a copy of an 27yo (in his prime) LBJ right now, right?

Well if you want to be precise Jokic is 3ppg short of Luka, but 1rpg, 1ast, 0.7stl, ahead of him. Jokic is also shooting 10% better from the field, 10% better for 3 and 10% from free throw line.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/avgAssists/dir/desc
Jokic is also first in OWS, WS, BPM, VORP 2nd in WS/48, OBPM, DBPM
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws_per_48
First in RAPTOR and WAR
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whos-making-a-splash-so-far-in-our-nba-player-ratings/
And first in TPA.
But Luka is having a great season too.

Yeah i know... but what has Jokic to do with any of this though? He was talking about Doncic.

You said "He's the only guy averaging those numbers. Jokic is close" when the fact is Jokic is ahead of him in every stat except ppg.
But never mind.

[Some smartguy]

Yeah i know... but what has Jokic to do with any of this though? He was talking about Doncic.

I'm not even a part of this, but come on...

Come on, what?

I was talking about raw numbers since Jokic is doing amazing but i could have also mentioned any other player. I wasn't comparing how their season is going or advance stats... I wasn't even comparing their direct MVP "competition". So again, what am i missing here?

You said this: "Jokic is close but still 3ppg and 2rpg short of him."
And this: "what has Jokic to do with any of this though?"
See what I mean?
I wasn't talking about the comparison, Luka and Jokic is a fair comparison, but you asked what Jokic had to do with it after bringing him up in the first place.

[Archx]

Spoiler:

Well if you want to be precise Jokic is 3ppg short of Luka, but 1rpg, 1ast, 0.7stl, ahead of him. Jokic is also shooting 10% better from the field, 10% better for 3 and 10% from free throw line.
https://www.espn.com/nba/stats/player/_/table/offensive/sort/avgAssists/dir/desc
Jokic is also first in OWS, WS, BPM, VORP 2nd in WS/48, OBPM, DBPM
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_advanced.html#advanced_stats::ws_per_48
First in RAPTOR and WAR
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/whos-making-a-splash-so-far-in-our-nba-player-ratings/
And first in TPA.
But Luka is having a great season too.

Yeah i know... but what has Jokic to do with any of this though? He was talking about Doncic.

You said "He's the only guy averaging those numbers. Jokic is close" when the fact is Jokic is ahead of him in every stat except ppg.
But never mind.

I'm not even a part of this, but come on...

Come on, what?

I was talking about raw numbers since Jokic is doing amazing but i could have also mentioned any other player. I wasn't comparing how their season is going or advance stats... I wasn't even comparing their direct MVP "competition". So again, what am i missing here?

You said this: "Jokic is close but still 3ppg and 2rpg short of him."
And this: "what has Jokic to do with any of this though?"
See what I mean?

Ok again, for both of you so you will understand.

I just explained i was comparing RAW numbers about players who are averaging 28+ ppg and could have mentioned ANY other player.
That guy said Luka is not averaging MVP numbers because 28ppg and 11rebs are not MVP numbers, so i checked players who are averaging 28+ points. But i still went with Jokic because I KNOW he's doing better than Luka overall but i wasn't comparing anything else. So you confused me with all those stats because the other guy didn't even mention him and i didn't know what BelgradeNugget was trying to prove.

[Some smartguy]

Spoiler:

Yeah i know... but what has Jokic to do with any of this though? He was talking about Doncic.

You said "He's the only guy averaging those numbers. Jokic is close" when the fact is Jokic is ahead of him in every stat except ppg.
But never mind.

Come on, what?

I was talking about raw numbers since Jokic is doing amazing but i could have also mentioned any other player. I wasn't comparing how their season is going or advance stats... I wasn't even comparing their direct MVP "competition". So again, what am i missing here?

You said this: "Jokic is close but still 3ppg and 2rpg short of him."
And this: "what has Jokic to do with any of this though?"
See what I mean?

Ok again, for both of you so you will understand.

I just explained i was comparing RAW numbers about players who are averaging 28+ ppg and could have mentioned ANY other player.
That guy said Luka is not averaging MVP numbers because 28ppg and 11rebs are not MVP numbers, so i checked players who are averaging 28+ points. But i still went with Jokic because I KNOW he's doing better than Luka overall but i wasn't comparing anything else. So you confused me with all those stats because the other guy didn't even mention him and i didn't know what BelgradeNugget was trying to prove.

Bruh. I can't deal with this.
You said this: "Jokic is close but still 3ppg and 2rpg short of him."
And this: "what has Jokic to do with any of this though?"

I get that you could have picked someone else, but you chose Jokic as the example and then proceeded to ask why Jokic was even brought up. That's my point.

[Archx]

Spoiler:

You said "He's the only guy averaging those numbers. Jokic is close" when the fact is Jokic is ahead of him in every stat except ppg.
But never mind.

You said this: "Jokic is close but still 3ppg and 2rpg short of him."
And this: "what has Jokic to do with any of this though?"
See what I mean?

Ok again, for both of you so you will understand.

I just explained i was comparing RAW numbers about players who are averaging 28+ ppg and could have mentioned ANY other player.
That guy said Luka is not averaging MVP numbers because 28ppg and 11rebs are not MVP numbers, so i checked players who are averaging 28+ points. But i still went with Jokic because I KNOW he's doing better than Luka overall but i wasn't comparing anything else. So you confused me with all those stats because the other guy didn't even mention him and i didn't know what BelgradeNugget was trying to prove.

Bruh. I can't deal with this.
You said this: "Jokic is close but still 3ppg and 2rpg short of him."
And this: "what has Jokic to do with any of this though?"

I get that you could have picked someone else, but you chose Jokic as the example and then proceeded to ask why Jokic was even brought up. That's my point.

There is no player in the NBA averaging Doncic's numbers when it comes to players averaging above 28ppg. Jokic is the only guy worthy bringing up in this discussion because he is averaging a triple double. That's why i used him as an example.
But then BelgradeNugget started talking advance stats and it confused me because it had no correlation to what was the PRIMARY point of discussion.
I seriously have no clue how else i should to explain this to you. But since BelgradeNugget gets it, i'm fine with ending this discussion.

[Some smartguy]

Jesus Christ LMAO. Some people man...

[Texas Chuck]

Yeah I have no idea what Arch is on about. He literally brought Jokic into the conversation and then got mad when people talked about Jokic. And frankly if there is a thread about a player being an MVP candidate it sure seems like all other MVP candidates are relevant regardless of how similar or not their stat lines are.

[BelgradeNugget]

Jesus Christ LMAO. Some people man...

If I understood correctly he was talking about players averaging 28+ ppg, so when he said Jokic is close he meant Jokic is close to the 28 ppg. If I'm correct he wasn't compering two. So it is OK

[Archx]

Jesus Christ LMAO. Some people man...

If I understood correctly he was talking about players averaging 28+ ppg, so when he said Jokic is close he meant Jokic is close to the 28 ppg. If I'm correct he wasn't compering two. So it is OK

Exactly. THANK YOU.

Yeah I have no idea what Arch is on about. He literally brought Jokic into the conversation and then got mad when people talked about Jokic. And frankly if there is a thread about a player being an MVP candidate it sure seems like all other MVP candidates are relevant regardless of how similar or not their stat lines are.

I asked BelgradeNugget one quick question then i explained myself to him, i have no clue why the other "smart guy" joined the discussion and complicated it further. Like BelgradeNugget said, i wasn't even comparing players.