ImageImageImageImageImage

Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green

Moderators: DG88, niQ, Duffman100, tsherkin, Reeko, lebron stopper, HiJiNX, 7 Footer, Morris_Shatford

Who do we get at #4

Jalen Suggs
176
60%
Jalen Green
117
40%
 
Total votes: 293

mulamutti
Pro Prospect
Posts: 937
And1: 783
Joined: Jan 14, 2014

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#281 » by mulamutti » Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:46 am

billy_hoyle wrote:
mulamutti wrote:
billy_hoyle wrote:
Your entire point is wrong. Its too simplistic. Different front offices are better at SCOUTING! They will make different CHOICES under the same circumstances. The results are what other people would have done. Why are you comparing Masai to Kahn? That's actually what you are doing here. Jesus man it's not even hard to understand.

Not to be mean man, but your point is absolute garbage.

That's all.


Jeez. Those examples I gave were of the raptors scouting staff. Your conjecture is that raptors scouting staff is that much better than everyone else?


Masai drafted Jonas?

Come on man. You know he didn't.

It's more complicated than what you are proposing.

I don't have the answer on how to do this. I think you are kinda on the right track when you point out Masai picked Bruno before Jokic and Capela... Now do that for each pick he's made. Compare the number of all stars available in those historical drafts (or all star caliber players - this is subjective, but all star selections isn't a perfect barometer of impact or pickings high level players).

See how many times he's selected the best player available at his picks (also track if he picked the 2nd or 3rd best player).

Now consider at four the likelihood an all star (or all star caliber player) is available and their abundance within that draft range.

I bet you end up with higher odds than 33% that we get a star. (All star caliber would be someone like SGA).

Additionally, you could weight the available players based on projections, although if you did this you will just find out that Masai has a really high chance of drafting a star, because there are at least 4 high probability stars in this draft.


I was talking about raptors scouting staff in general. Your logic is that Masai specifically has a much better than 33pct odds of drafting a star. Well let's hope you are right. I do trust Masai and he's made excellent productive choices, whether trade or draft selection.
User avatar
Raps in 4
RealGM
Posts: 67,185
And1: 62,048
Joined: Nov 01, 2008
Location: Toronto
 

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#282 » by Raps in 4 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:49 am

mulamutti wrote:
billy_hoyle wrote:
mulamutti wrote:
Jeez. Those examples I gave were of the raptors scouting staff. Your conjecture is that raptors scouting staff is that much better than everyone else?


Masai drafted Jonas?

Come on man. You know he didn't.

It's more complicated than what you are proposing.

I don't have the answer on how to do this. I think you are kinda on the right track when you point out Masai picked Bruno before Jokic and Capela... Now do that for each pick he's made. Compare the number of all stars available in those historical drafts (or all star caliber players - this is subjective, but all star selections isn't a perfect barometer of impact or pickings high level players).

See how many times he's selected the best player available at his picks (also track if he picked the 2nd or 3rd best player).

Now consider at four the likelihood an all star (or all star caliber player) is available and their abundance within that draft range.

I bet you end up with higher odds than 33% that we get a star. (All star caliber would be someone like SGA).

Additionally, you could weight the available players based on projections, although if you did this you will just find out that Masai has a really high chance of drafting a star, because there are at least 4 high probability stars in this draft.


I was talking about raptors scouting staff in general. Your logic is that Masai specifically has a much better than 33pct odds of drafting a star. Well let's hope you are right. I do trust Masai and he's made excellent productive choices, whether trade or draft selection.


It's not just the scouting. Our development is elite too. I'm confident we'll turn whoever we draft into a star.
Marty_Budda
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,743
And1: 2,802
Joined: Aug 06, 2018
     

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#283 » by Marty_Budda » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:07 am

Chandan wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:
Chandan wrote:
You have good points. However, it completely make sense as a fan for him to want a transcendent tier athlete if given choices. 4th pick doesn't come to our franchise often and if he thinks elite peak athleticism from the lead guard is a requirement to the promise land, I can see why he is not isn't a Suggs believer.

And if you look at recent history, most championships are won by freaks of nature.


The raps just won a chip without any freak athletes on their team, unless u count kawhi hand size as some freak anomaly. If freak athleticism was end all be all Green would be number 1 or the consensus #2 out the gates.

Hey I can understand not being hype on Suggs, but acting like this is a 3 horse race isn't the right mind state at all tho


Kawhi is undisputedly, a freak of nature. Dude is probably the strongest SF EVER.

It's not a 3 horse race though. The top 4 each have their ups and down side.
The teams before us can easily pick suggs over green or mobley OR cade.
Crazier selections have happened.


lol Cade is going number 1. No questions asked. No crazier things have happened.

Also enough with the “athletic freak” stuff. Green is no more athletic than Zach Lavine. He’s no freak of nature. If you want pure athleticism and strength kuminga should be top of your list. But last time I checked, Steph curry is no athletic freak, Tim Duncan is no athletic freak, dirk nowitzki is no athletic freak. You can absolutely win a championship with high iq players.
User avatar
720
RealGM
Posts: 33,128
And1: 67,732
Joined: Nov 01, 2012
Location: Malton
     

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#284 » by 720 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:08 am

TheRealDeal wrote:
Basketball_Jones wrote:Seeing what Trae Young is doing right now, maybe I’m sold on Suggs!


It’s gonna be amazing having Suggs & Fred to throw at Trae for years to come

He’s going to hate playing against us

Image
Image
Image
Marty_Budda
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,743
And1: 2,802
Joined: Aug 06, 2018
     

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#285 » by Marty_Budda » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:20 am

720 wrote:
TheRealDeal wrote:
Basketball_Jones wrote:Seeing what Trae Young is doing right now, maybe I’m sold on Suggs!


It’s gonna be amazing having Suggs & Fred to throw at Trae for years to come

He’s going to hate playing against us

Image


I honestly don’t see how a guy with that high of a motor, willingness to win and talent level can bust. Also his passing is special being a star QB as well. He’s our guy
maternal85
Starter
Posts: 2,127
And1: 1,802
Joined: Feb 14, 2016

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#286 » by maternal85 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:36 am

OakleyDokely wrote:Watch Masai take Kuminga at 4, everyone freaks the hell out, and then he turns into Kawhi


Exactly. Everyone is now watching highlights, listening to what the "experts" are saying. Most people didn't know who these players were a year ago. If Ujiri goes a different route, he'd be called "an idiot", even though nobody on this board will get the chance to see these guys work out in person like Ujiri, or even conduct their interview/background check. I trust whatever route he goes.

Ask most why they like Suggs or Green, they'll repeat something they heard from an "expert" from ESPN, or point to their highlights. Most here don't know anything including myself.
maternal85
Starter
Posts: 2,127
And1: 1,802
Joined: Feb 14, 2016

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#287 » by maternal85 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:38 am

Marty_Budda wrote:
720 wrote:
TheRealDeal wrote:
It’s gonna be amazing having Suggs & Fred to throw at Trae for years to come

He’s going to hate playing against us

Image


I honestly don’t see how a guy with that high of a motor, willingness to win and talent level can bust. Also his passing is special being a star QB as well. He’s our guy


Kwame Brown had all this according to the experts. This is hilarious.
Saciid11
General Manager
Posts: 8,572
And1: 4,225
Joined: May 22, 2009

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#288 » by Saciid11 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:45 am

Marty_Budda wrote:
Chandan wrote:
DreamTeam09 wrote:
The raps just won a chip without any freak athletes on their team, unless u count kawhi hand size as some freak anomaly. If freak athleticism was end all be all Green would be number 1 or the consensus #2 out the gates.

Hey I can understand not being hype on Suggs, but acting like this is a 3 horse race isn't the right mind state at all tho


Kawhi is undisputedly, a freak of nature. Dude is probably the strongest SF EVER.

It's not a 3 horse race though. The top 4 each have their ups and down side.
The teams before us can easily pick suggs over green or mobley OR cade.
Crazier selections have happened.


lol Cade is going number 1. No questions asked. No crazier things have happened.

Also enough with the “athletic freak” stuff. Green is no more athletic than Zach Lavine. He’s no freak of nature. If you want pure athleticism and strength kuminga should be top of your list. But last time I checked, Steph curry is no athletic freak, Tim Duncan is no athletic freak, dirk nowitzki is no athletic freak. You can absolutely win a championship with high iq players.


Greens athleticism is being overrated by some long this board. They think Athleticism is just jumping high, but it's not. Lavine is best dunker in the league, but noway is Lavine close to being the athlete Westbrook & prime LeBron where. The same thing here Green is not more athletic then Suggs who was highly recruited quarterback in high-school. Suggs combination of speed, strength makes him a better athlete then Green who needs to gain & strength if he wants to dominate the league.
User avatar
Raps in 4
RealGM
Posts: 67,185
And1: 62,048
Joined: Nov 01, 2008
Location: Toronto
 

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#289 » by Raps in 4 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:46 am

maternal85 wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:Watch Masai take Kuminga at 4, everyone freaks the hell out, and then he turns into Kawhi


Exactly. Everyone is now watching highlights, listening to what the "experts" are saying. Most people didn't know who these players were a year ago. If Ujiri goes a different route, he'd be called "an idiot", even though nobody on this board will get the chance to see these guys work out in person like Ujiri, or even conduct their interview/background check. I trust whatever route he goes.

Ask most why they like Suggs or Green, they'll repeat something they heard from an "expert" from ESPN, or point to their highlights. Most here don't know anything including myself.


I'm not a fan of Kuminga right now, but if Masai and co. think he's the right pick, then he's the right pick.
Saciid11
General Manager
Posts: 8,572
And1: 4,225
Joined: May 22, 2009

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#290 » by Saciid11 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:46 am

maternal85 wrote:
Marty_Budda wrote:
720 wrote:Image


I honestly don’t see how a guy with that high of a motor, willingness to win and talent level can bust. Also his passing is special being a star QB as well. He’s our guy


Kwame Brown had all this according to the experts. This is hilarious.



You comparing Kwame Brown to a guard who dominated NCAA at both end of the court.
Sanman9
Ballboy
Posts: 41
And1: 25
Joined: Sep 12, 2020
 

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#291 » by Sanman9 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:50 am

Love that the Raps jumped up into 4th place…the disaster Tampa season paid off! Hope Masai stays and picks Suggs…he’s proven from the NCAA tournament and a perfect fit with Freddy…assuming he’s available. So how does Trent jr and Malachi Flynn fit in then?
maternal85
Starter
Posts: 2,127
And1: 1,802
Joined: Feb 14, 2016

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#292 » by maternal85 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:51 am

Saciid11 wrote:
maternal85 wrote:
Marty_Budda wrote:
I honestly don’t see how a guy with that high of a motor, willingness to win and talent level can bust. Also his passing is special being a star QB as well. He’s our guy


Kwame Brown had all this according to the experts. This is hilarious.



You comparing Kwame Brown to a guard who dominated NCAA at both end of the court.


I'm comparing their hype before the draft. Calm down on watching highlights. Tyler Hansbrough was a dominant NCAA player as well.
Marty_Budda
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,743
And1: 2,802
Joined: Aug 06, 2018
     

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#293 » by Marty_Budda » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:51 am

maternal85 wrote:
Marty_Budda wrote:
720 wrote:Image


I honestly don’t see how a guy with that high of a motor, willingness to win and talent level can bust. Also his passing is special being a star QB as well. He’s our guy


Kwame Brown had all this according to the experts. This is hilarious.


Kwame was a star QB and seen as a great passer? Also kwame’s best competition before coming to the league was high school kids. I’d say the college game although nowhere near nba level is still miles of a better indicator than what a player does in high school.

Also I had no idea experts were high on kwame’s competitiveness. That’s interesting (not being sarcastic here I actually had no idea)
Marty_Budda
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,743
And1: 2,802
Joined: Aug 06, 2018
     

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#294 » by Marty_Budda » Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:59 am

maternal85 wrote:
Saciid11 wrote:
maternal85 wrote:
Kwame Brown had all this according to the experts. This is hilarious.



You comparing Kwame Brown to a guard who dominated NCAA at both end of the court.


I'm comparing their hype before the draft. Calm down on watching highlights. Tyler Hansbrough was a dominant NCAA player as well.


Yeah so is drew timme yet nobody had him as better than Suggs. You’re comparing a dynamic two way guard that can pass to lumbering bigs.

I still don’t even know what your issue with Suggs is? What don’t you like about him and makes you think he busts?
Chandan
RealGM
Posts: 18,350
And1: 22,015
Joined: Nov 23, 2017
 

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#295 » by Chandan » Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:37 am

Saciid11 wrote:
Marty_Budda wrote:
Chandan wrote:
Kawhi is undisputedly, a freak of nature. Dude is probably the strongest SF EVER.

It's not a 3 horse race though. The top 4 each have their ups and down side.
The teams before us can easily pick suggs over green or mobley OR cade.
Crazier selections have happened.


lol Cade is going number 1. No questions asked. No crazier things have happened.

Also enough with the “athletic freak” stuff. Green is no more athletic than Zach Lavine. He’s no freak of nature. If you want pure athleticism and strength kuminga should be top of your list. But last time I checked, Steph curry is no athletic freak, Tim Duncan is no athletic freak, dirk nowitzki is no athletic freak. You can absolutely win a championship with high iq players.


Which is why the other guy said he wasn't impressed by the top 4 at all. I wasn't even pointing to Green as the athletic freak, that's you assumption.
Image
God Squad
RealGM
Posts: 13,372
And1: 11,631
Joined: Feb 22, 2010
Location: Toronto
   

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#296 » by God Squad » Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:49 am

maternal85 wrote:
Saciid11 wrote:
maternal85 wrote:
Kwame Brown had all this according to the experts. This is hilarious.



You comparing Kwame Brown to a guard who dominated NCAA at both end of the court.


I'm comparing their hype before the draft. Calm down on watching highlights. Tyler Hansbrough was a dominant NCAA player as well.

You clearly didn't watch any NCAA this year. Just stay quiet then and let the draft fans discuss.
You just sound *Insert better word*
User avatar
NinjaBro
RealGM
Posts: 27,820
And1: 43,547
Joined: Aug 21, 2014
Location: Shamblesland
 

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#297 » by NinjaBro » Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:50 am

After doing extensive research (aka youtube highlights) I'm convinced more than ever Suggs is the right guy for us. We don't have anyone with his finishing ability, passing and athleticism.
God Squad
RealGM
Posts: 13,372
And1: 11,631
Joined: Feb 22, 2010
Location: Toronto
   

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#298 » by God Squad » Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:51 am

Marty_Budda wrote:
maternal85 wrote:
Saciid11 wrote:

You comparing Kwame Brown to a guard who dominated NCAA at both end of the court.


I'm comparing their hype before the draft. Calm down on watching highlights. Tyler Hansbrough was a dominant NCAA player as well.


Yeah so is drew timme yet nobody had him as better than Suggs. You’re comparing a dynamic two way guard that can pass to lumbering bigs.

I still don’t even know what your issue with Suggs is? What don’t you like about him and makes you think he busts?

He clearly knows nothing about the draft and I doubt he's watched a single game. Suggs is a damn good pg, and the fact that our options are now Suggs/Green/Mobley as opposed to K.Johnson/Moody/Sengun speaks volumes.
User avatar
ash_k
RealGM
Posts: 16,400
And1: 9,136
Joined: Apr 14, 2010
         

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#299 » by ash_k » Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:35 am

Basketball_Jones wrote:Seeing what Trae Young is doing right now, maybe I’m sold on Suggs!

Trae was essentially doing the same thing at Oklahoma, deep 3s and all.
NCAA season scoring leader (2018)
NCAA season assists leader (2018)

We knew he was going to score, but certainly not at this level. Suggs has not demonstrated that elite scoring mentality.
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.
User avatar
ash_k
RealGM
Posts: 16,400
And1: 9,136
Joined: Apr 14, 2010
         

Re: Jalen Suggs vs. Jalen Green 

Post#300 » by ash_k » Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:47 am

720 wrote:
TheRealDeal wrote:
Basketball_Jones wrote:Seeing what Trae Young is doing right now, maybe I’m sold on Suggs!


It’s gonna be amazing having Suggs & Fred to throw at Trae for years to come

He’s going to hate playing against us

Image

Through the years, it has always been the problem with many around here. It should always be about "how does that player matchup against NBA All-stars guys?" I still remember when we were arguing about MKG, Kaminski, Kaminski's teammate Dekker to name a few...it was clear they were not going to matchup\make it but folks kept bringing NCAA moments. Just like it was clear that Tatum was the number 1 pick(just like Rudy Gay was the number 1 pick)..but forget that.
How does Suggs matchup against Ja|Fox|Trae|Westbrook|Wall|former n#1Ben Simmons ?
Sinant wrote:I treat the Phoenix/Cleveland/Boston Shaqs like I do Wizards MJ. Never happened.

Return to Toronto Raptors